#455: Kik Textiles - Winner of the 2023 “Best Loyalty Launch” Award at the International Loyalty Awards in London

Today we showcase another award-winning loyalty program – this time in Europe.

Kik Textiles is a huge European retail chain, employing more than 26,000 people and operating more than 4,000 stores across fourteen countries.

Our guest is Sebastian Hense, Head of Marketing and CRM for Kik, who shares his story of creating a loyalty proposition that’s laser focused on understanding and relating to its customers and their unique needs.

Sebastian explains some of their key pillars of success and how they achieved the task of launching a program that’s low cost and efficient, as well as simple and scalable, which won the “Best Loyalty Launch” award at the 2023 International Loyalty Awards in London.

Please do enjoy my conversation with Sebastian Hense from Kik Rewards.

Show Notes:

1) Sebastian Hense

2) Kik Textiles

Audio Transcript

Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty featuring an award winning loyalty program based in Europe. KiK Textiles is a huge European retail chain, employing more than 26, 000 people and operating more than 4, 000 stores across 14 countries. I’m joined by Sebastian Hense, Head of Marketing and CRM for KiK, who shares his story of creating a loyalty proposition that’s laser focused on understanding and relating to its customers and their unique needs.

Sebastian explains some of their key pillars for success and how they achieved the task of launching a program that’s low cost and efficient, as well as simple and scalable. And a program which won the Best Loyalty Launch Award at the 2023 International Loyalty Awards in London. I really hope you enjoy my Sebastian Hense, all about KiK Rewards. 

So, Sebastian Hense, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty. 

Sebastian: Hi Paula, thank you. 

Paula: Great to have you, Sebastian. We had a wonderful introduction, by a mutual friend of ours, Cecilia Floridi, recently at the International Loyalty Awards in London. So I guess it would be remiss of me not to start by congratulating you on your two awards.

Sebastian: Thank you. Thank you very much. 

Paula: Great. We’ll get into exactly what you won and why you won, most importantly for the audience as we get into the conversation, Sebastian. But as you know, we’re here to talk about a lot of exciting things in terms of what KiK is doing. 

But first and foremost, as a loyalty marketing professional, Sebastian, I’m really curious to understand from you, what would be your favorite loyalty program?

Sebastian: I have actually two favorite programs. The first one is, Sephora, which is a beauty brand and retailer, more or less, I think all over the world. And the other one is, a part of, the Schwarz Group  in Germany. It’s Kaufland. It’s a discount food and non food retailer. And, the reason why I prefer both of them, the one is a bit older.

Kaufland is a bit is mainly the same one because it’s not about having the best and perfect benefits or perfect communication flows. But what I really like for both of them is that the whole company and the whole communication and marketing is really living the CRM part. So it’s in the focus and it’s the basis of everything they are doing. Every communication is ended by the CRM and loyalty aspects, and they always communicate offers for loyalty card members.

And even before I decided to have only benefits for cardholders. So there’s no discount or anything for anybody else. So you really see that a whole company is seeing the benefit of CRM and loyalty and giving benefits only to customers giving data and customers they know. So it’s, yeah, the commitment of the whole company that is really convincing me and which I really like, because I think you can create a lot of benefits and communication and CRM and loyalty, but you have to have the support of the whole company to make it really successful for. He was a CRM expert, but also for the company itself. 

Paula: Yeah, no, it’s a great answer, Sebastian. Absolutely. Sephora has been answered many times on this show. I didn’t know Kaufland, but I do know Lidl, as you mentioned, which is one of their brands. So, you know, certainly for our listeners in the US market, Sephora will be more familiar. 

But I think what you’re explaining for us is a really key point, Sebastian. And I think one that you’re going to explain is exactly what you’ve managed to execute in this role that you’re doing, which is, I suppose, an ethos of loyalty. So not just a loyalty program, not just something that sits within one department, but something that the whole business, bottom up and top down believe in from start to finish. Would that be fair to say? 

Sebastian: Say so that from my perspective, this is success of every CRM or loyalty aspect in a company. So if you want to make it as successful and relevant as possible, everybody has to live it. 

Paula: Totally. Totally. So listen, let’s get straight into KiK and I hope that’s the full correct name. I know you guys are headquartered in Germany and I should also acknowledge that it’s incredible that you’re doing this in English because I know that’s not your first language, Sebastian. So, absolutely brilliant that you’re able to share the story so widely in a way that our, you know, listeners can understand.

So, would you mind by just introducing the brand for us, Sebastian? And because it’s such a huge success story in Europe, but again, given our global audience, it might need some introduction. So maybe just to get us started with that. 

Sebastian: Of course, KiK, is a textile and non food discount retailer based in Germany, founded in 1994. So we are turning 30 next year. So, and right now we are, we have stores in 14 countries all over Europe. So, not only Germany, although Germany is the biggest country with more than two and a half thousand stores. So we have online business in some countries. So Germany, Austria, Poland. So, but our main focus is the stationary, statutory sales. 

And what does textile discount and non food discount mean? Yes, of course we are selling clothes. So it’s more or less half of our stuff we are selling, but we also sell a lot or a huge range of non food articles. So from decoration articles, from homeware, from some food articles.

So very white assortment, what we are selling and as a discounter, we are addressing families, most of them with the low income. So, and as we have two and a half thousand stores all over Germany, it’s, yeah, it’s for daily usage. So customers visiting our stores quite frequently, so often without a concrete, buying proposition.

So, yeah, it’s just driving around, seeing what’s new and yeah, so that is our focus. So very important discount, very many stores all over the country are very reachable for everybody and focusing on women respectively, families with low income and yeah, stuff for the whole family from clothing to everything, what you need at home.

Paula: Beautiful. And what I picked up as well, Sebastian, from the website is a lot of ambition. Would that be fair to say? 

Sebastian: Absolutely. So, the growth story, as I said, we were founded in 1994. So within more than 30 years, 14 countries and more than 4, 000 stores at the great, growing story. And, yeah, but it hasn’t stopped. So it’s quite ambitious for the future. 

Paula: Incredible. Incredible. And I do know from our conversation previously, Sebastian, you arrived in a very short two years ago in that almost 30 year history. So tell us, what did you come into? What was the state of the business and given its incredible success? I suppose in terms of that footprint, in terms of an expansion, but from a customer perspective, and I suppose just to give us a sense of what was being done well, and maybe what the opportunities were when you started. 

Sebastian: Yes. So what was really interesting and exciting for me is that KiK, as I said, it’s a really great growth story and really successful in two years ago, but the management decided that we have to be prepared for the future and we should prepare us in a time of success and not when it’s too late.

So we, from a situation in which we were very successful, we, and the management decided, what do we have to do to be successful even in the next 10, 20, 50 years. And beside many other aspects, the aspect that there are no or there’s no data at all. Some online shop data, but referring to 4,000 stores, nearly no data about customer.

And so the communication was only focusing on mass media and mass communication. So not personalized, not individualized, only knowledge out of research. So they decided that one big aspect of being prepared for the future is to collect customer data and build up marketing and communication on that. And as the next step to be prepared, knowing a bit more how to arrange your assortment and what do customers want and buy.

So, but the basis was we have to collect data. And I was really excited to have the opportunity to get to build up that from more or less from scratch for such a big and successful company, because nowadays you won’t find many companies of that size where you can do it from scratch. And, yeah, more or less, of course, I’m not deciding everything, but more or less with a huge influence, what do you think what’s the right, right, right benefits, right set up for customers at the company. 

And the second aspect, what is really interesting for me is that as a discounter, we really have to be efficient in doing that. So we can’t spend a lot of money in the setup or even in the customer later on to be sure that it pays off because there was no experience for that discounter with data and how much can we invest in our customers?

Because of course the main goal was to earn money with that and earn more money than before. So that was really interesting for me. So I started more or less on my own. So my department was founded two years ago with the, yeah, me and another colleague at that point. And we grew, of course, I don’t know a lot. So we are now nine persons working on CRM. 

Paula: Incredible. Yeah. 

Sebastian: So we, the department, became bigger and bigger, but the main aspect was, okay, we are starting from scratch and we have a once in a lifetime from my perspective as a CRM expert on my own and not working on a program or a setup as somebody else.

Paula: My goodness. Wow. I mean, it almost sounds, dare I say it, Sebastian, quite daunting. as you said, there’s nothing been in place previously, absolutely zero data, almost, I guess at that time, 28 years business operations and a big vision. But at the same time, as you said, the affordability within a discount business definitely means you can’t offer very rich rewards.

And of course, the ultimate starting point for every customer has to be, why would I give you my data unless you give me something that is of value? And to do that within that, that style of business, I think is an incredible success story. And clearly the reason you won the Best Loyalty Launch of 2023.

So I think my obvious next question for you, Sebastian, is what proposition did you build and what was the insight behind it? Because, you know, I think we all have very clear understanding of, you know, a typical loyalty program would have a currency and points and all of this. But as we’ve already talked about, it’s hard to be generous when the margins aren’t there. So what did you build and give us the insights behind it? 

Sebastian: We started so with a very theoretical part, to be honest. So we put everything we knew about our customers out of research we did before together. And we created out of that some rules, which has to be delivered by our loyalty program. So first of all, as we are stationary, it was no discussion that we need the kind of loyalty card. So, because we discussed if we need an app or a physical card, of course, but we need a classical loyalty card.

Paula: To hand to people.

Sebastian: To collect data. So, and then we said, okay, very theoretical, no, not complicated for CRM experts. We need aspects for new customers. We need for loyal customers to show the card even in year two, three, four, and even later, and we have to have benefits that clearly address higher frequency. And of course, everything has to be attractive for the customers, as you said, but it has to be, it has to pay off at the end for us. So we created some services, which do not cost any money for us. So like you can have a reservation for your articles.

If you’re unsure to buy them, you can give your products back without a receipt, because we know that you buy it, that you bought it. And we had some entertaining aspects like.you receive a birthday voucher. If you give us your email address or you are being part of, yeah, you can win something with every purchase at the end. So you have to have a reason to show your card. 

And then of course we need to integrate financial benefits. And that was the most exciting part because that is, can be very costly at the end, but it has to be attractive for both sides of for the company and the customer. And there were two, two aspects.

So the first one, which is our main benefit, is that you receive after every fifth purchase. A voucher 20 percent off on an article of your choice for your next purchase. So what is really important, we say, okay, you are a loyal customer and that is what we reward. So we are not judging how many money you spend.

But we give you something for being loyal because you only have to buy five times. So why didn’t we use like bonus points or why didn’t we reward the amount of money customers spend? It’s because, as I said, we have low income customers. And what we know out of research is that they feel at KiK, they feel free because one of our use pieces is the pricing.

So from that perspective, we are selling as a discount, cheap products and that’s why they feel free when they are buying at us because we are not judging them by not having that much money. So we said it would completely. Be the wrong way to give customers directly as an official benefit, more benefits if they spend a higher amount of money. So we want to really create our loyal customers independently from their money they spend. 

And the next main benefit, and that is already the last one, is that we having monthly changing articles which are available 15 percent off for cardholders. So we give them a reason to come back at least once a month when those articles are changing.

So it’s, yeah, we created a program with financial service and entertainment benefits, really easy to understand because that was another insight we have. Our customers with low income are often customers, they are not that educated or that have some problems with language because, and that was a reason we said, okay, it can’t be complicated.

If you have, so one reason was bonus points. If you don’t have that, if you don’t spend that much money, it’s not attractive to giving you back, I don’t know, one euro after 12 months, because it’s one percent of your spending. So that is not attractive from a communication aspect and it’s complicated. You have to calculate so many points and then I give, receive money back. So it has to be reachable, easy to understand. And, yeah, that was the main outcome. 

And we, to be very sure about that, we had another research before starting our program and we slightly adjusted those benefits to be very sure that it works in every country we are having stores in. So we spend a lot, not a lot of time, but we spend two to three months on being very sure what benefits are going to work. And that is from my perspective, one reason for our success, because we were very sure from the beginning on that it pays off for customers as well as for the company.

Paula: Yeah. Lovely. So many things I want to pick up on, Sebastian. I suppose the first one, which may be surprising to a lot of people is your emphatic decision to have the physical card, because we all know that there is a cost obviously associated, with having that, you know, production and distribution, of course, of the card, either by mail or in store. I’d be curious to hear, you know, if you do one or both of those. 

But, you know, with such a digitally savvy, market as I would, you know, perceive Europe, certainly I know your launch market was the Netherlands, but did you ever, you know, were you unsure about the decision to invest in the physical cards or was that one that you knew was absolutely required from the outset?

Sebastian: Many, many especially older customers. And we are talking about many customers of us who are 40 years. Why ever still prefer physical cards if, when they give data to the company? So it’s not my favorite choice, but as we have to listen to our customer, we were pretty sure that is that way. Of course, we have to discuss it regarding the costs we create, but we put that again in our research and the answer was quite clear.

So, and to be honest, all the countries we are, we’ve launched our program, the majority of cardholders is deciding for the physical card and it’s not 60%, it’s close to 100. So of course, customers use the app and some use them in addition to the physical card, but it’s still the preferred way. Customers want to be part of our loyalty program. So it is got probably going to change and probably, in the next years the app will become more important. But right now, it’s a physical card and we decided although there are the higher costs for having both because we knew if we don’t, yeah, we will, we will lose or even not get customers which want to be part of the program.


Paula: Amazing. And it sounds like it won’t change anytime soon, Sebastian, if it is close to 100 percent are preferring the physical card. I guess we always have our phone with us. So great to have the app as a backup if you forget to bring the physical card, perhaps once or twice. So, wonderful that you went for the dual strategy, because as you said, there is a big decision. 

But I like the fact that you went and I suppose went through so much robust research because I remember when you explained it to me previously, you had a very clear determination that this would feel not just like a simple program, which you’ve explained, but also a stable one. Because I feel like that there is so much, I suppose competition for our attention in every market and in every area of our life that you wanted something that wouldn’t need to change, wouldn’t need the, you know, the campaign bonuses or, you know, extra points, or for example, that you just wanted something, as you said, that was focused on a simple benefit, based on how often they came to shop.

And I really love that point that you’re not judging them for their spend because it really does sound like that is something that they, you know, really feel, sensitive about. And you’ve recognized that by focusing, I guess, on, on share of wallet rather than total spend, which would never have worked for you.

Sebastian: Yeah. It’s always about listening to the customer. So it’s not never copy paste because every company has its own customer and customer specifications. So yeah, the theoretical part was really important for us because not only for us or the customers we want to be stable, but as we said, as a discounter and with a cost perspective, every change costs money and that should be avoided.

Paula: Totally. Totally. So, and I suppose just on the final piece that I wanted to emphasize, because we do all need some variety in the program, was this idea around having what I would probably call like a hero product every month, where, as you said, for the members of KiK Rewards, they literally get that 15 percent off.

So there’s something new to come in store for, something exciting that’s available at a special offer. And I guess that’s something that does give that sense of, I suppose, just newness and freshness for the program. Would that be fair to say? 

Sebastian: Of course, we have variety in what we are communicating and every customer receives individualized communication based on his behavior, but to give them a reason every month, at least every month to come and see what’s new in for me and what I have a discount on is very important for us.

And the other aspect, which is as a stationary retail, stationary focused retailer is that we help our store employees. So every day they can offer a discount to the customers and have an entry point for asking or introducing our program. So it’s not about, do you want to have our loyalty cards?

It’s about, hey, today I can offer you 15 percent off on I don’t know if this jacket, the only thing you have to take is our loyalty card. So that is another reason because our store employees are the main basis for our success because most of our loyalty cards are generated. In the stores, when customers are there or buy the cash desk, so they are very important, or they are the most important aspect for our success.

And that is not only a benefit for the customer, but it makes it much easier for our employees to talk about the program because you can offer a discount every time. And we all know most entry points are concrete and immediate discounts. So. 

Paula: Amazing. So I think that’s a super important point as well, Sebastian, about, about staff and, you know, bringing them on the journey. I think what I’ve learned from you in our even conversations before is that you’re very clear that this is an ethos of business, as we said at the start. 

But what I think I learned, particularly from you that you said that I hadn’t heard maybe explained in the same way was as well as explaining to the staff why you do things that you do. I think you also put an awful lot of focus on explaining why you don’t do certain things like, for example, you know, trying to increase the spend. So would you just talk us through your insights in terms of that, maybe as a success principle for your whole approach to loyalty?

Sebastian: As I’m head of marketing in CRM, I have two topics, which more or less everybody is in contact with as a customer. So everybody knows marketing campaigns. Everybody prefers some marketing campaigns. Everybody has one or even more loyalty cards and receives newsletters, benefits and everything. So you’re always, always, in contact with why don’t we do that? Why don’t we do it like them? So everything is fine, but as we said, we started with CRM, so we have to be very convincing and we have to have the buy in of everything, especially the stuff in the stores and the management. And we wanted to avoid too many conversations or discussions about what could we change?

Why don’t we do that? Can we add that one? Can we add that benefit? So that is the reason why we did not only spend time on what our final benefits, but we also explained as I did before, why we don’t use bonus points, for example. So because it’s too complicated, it’s not attractive in communication.

So to have, to convince everybody in the company from the beginning on and to answer and clarify as many questions as possible before they are asked by others. And from my perspective that helped, to explain why our final benefits or final benefits and that made it very clear for everybody.

So, it was not the kind of, okay, you choose your most favorite benefits you personally prefer, but it became a very objective approach of our benefits. And I think that is very important because as we all know, the possibilities of benefits and measurements and activities in loyalty are more or less endless. So, they’re more or less endless, which means, yeah, you always can discuss about what could be done more or what could be done in addition. But as we started, we have to focus and bring it to life. And do not spend too much time on discussing about it. 

Paula: Yeah, I think about it. I love that. I wish I’d heard that from you about 15 years ago, Sebastian. I think sometimes, you know, my willingness to please, and I’m sure there’s plenty of people listening who’ve experienced that as well.

We do end up taking, you know, everybody’s favorite loyalty. Program and, you know, suggestions and potentially criticisms. But what I hear you’ve done is you’ve preempted that and you’ve prevented, I suppose, even the conversation around, let’s do this, let’s do that, because you would never have got to market and certainly not with the speed that you did manage to get to market because, from memory, it was about six months from signing off your proposition to launching in store in the Netherlands Sebastian was that, was that correct? 

Sebastian: Yeah, more or less. That’s correct. So, we started with, as I said, with two. So to be honest, we worked on that program and the preparation of those slides, which explain why we are doing that or want to do that and what we are not doing. Then we spent two to three months on, on market research or two on research on that program.

And then we started the technical development in September 2021 and launched in the Netherlands with tablets in store and app in March 2022. So six months more or less on technical development and then launching a complete program with physical cards. Tablets for registration and app and everything you need for communication, more than 30 automated workflows with individual communication.

So, still an MVP. Of course an MVP, but enough to launch it in our first country and to collect the customers and starting communication and having experiences how it works for us as a discounter. 

Paula: Yeah. And then how long before you launched in your home markets Sebastian, in Germany?

Sebastian: Then we waited again, six months. So in September, so one year after starting the technical development, we had the go live in our biggest market in Germany, in September, 2022. So again in two weeks, it’s today in two weeks, there is the first anniversary. 

Paula: Incredible. Wow. What a story, Sebastian. Yes, we are recording in September 2023. So literally coming up on your first birthday. Just as a totally irrelevant, but, for me personally, amusing to see your birthday is the same birthday as Let’s Talk Loyalty on August 22nd. 

Sebastian: Oh, is it?

Paula: Yeah, so there you go. We were four years old. I won’t ask what age you were on August 22nd this year. But, what are those random things I noticed when I was talking you on LinkedIn, of course, in preparation for our conversation. So, but more importantly, we’re here to celebrate the program and, and one year in, in your home market. 

So tell us then, I suppose the big question, what are you most proud of Sebastian, given that this, you know, you’ve got 12 months of live operations, two years since you first joined and got started, as you said, from absolutely nothing. So what would you share are the big achievements that you and your team have, have achieved? 

Sebastian: I think there is a lot of what I’m proud of. So first of all, is we really, from my perspective, convinced the company how important CRM is and that it works. So we proved the kind of proof of concept that our change of communication focus on personalized communication and that data is relevant for the company really worked.  So everybody was open minded every day is really, was really great at KiK that everybody was open minded, but of course you always have to prove that you are not only talking about theoretical things, but it works in daily business and that it does. 

The next one is that we really created from a two, a team of two, two heads to nine heads right now. So, big growth in people, but only, but also in the abilities, what they are able to do. So we have a great mixture of colleagues that already worked for KiK before, but have never been in contact with CRM, but so we integrated them and they had a huge learning curve from my perspective and to integrate the external experts. So we have now really,  a really, from my perspective, well functioning CRM team, which really fits the company needs. 

So, as we started two years ago, so we really have to build up a team that’s focusing on growing that basis and become more and more professional. So then I’m really proud of, because you have to be a bit excited and you have to be a starting in a CRM, in a company where it’s okay. We started CRM only one year ago. Are you very, are you sure to start with us? And they are so, so enthusiastic, like, okay, it’s great to build up the basis. And we want to set up a once in a lifetime project here in that company. So that I’m proud of.

And of course, all the KPIs we reached for our company. I’m also very proud of, because that is from a CRM expert perspective. We are right now, we have in Germany, we have more than 5.2 million cardholders in roundabout a year. So in Austria, Poland and Netherlands, of course we have smaller countries, we have less stores, but in comparison, there are comparable figures and KPIs.

We are already paying. So break even was never a discussion. So to say it really paid off right from the beginning on. We see effects of our communication and yeah, we created a whole new set of possibilities for communication and for customer loyalty at KiK and that is from a more people focused to more KPI focused, I’m very proud of all those things. Very exciting. Two years so far. 

Paula: Totally. And in a minute, I want to know what’s next. Of course, Sebastian, because, clearly with all that ambition and all of the basics in place, I’m sure you have some wonderful plans, but just to, you know, pick up on a couple of things you said, I saw your headline numbers, across all of your countries, again, published on LinkedIn with over 6 million.

So that I thought is an incredible number. You also, I think more as a joke than anything, but commented, I think last time we spoke that, you know, you felt like the program broke even in like two days. So that, as you said, is not even a question. So I know that’s not, you know, stated as a fact, but it is generally a wonderful observation that it’s not even something you have to defend.

Because certainly when I was running loyalty programs, again, they can be very expensive to build. They can be very complex to operate. And they’re very often is a lot of questions that are asked in different sectors, I think to different degrees, but you know, is it working? And what I feel like is for KiK, there’s no such question and it doesn’t feel like it will ever arise. Given all of the success that you’re sharing. 

So yeah, let me come to that final question. Then in terms of the future, Sebastian, what would you say you’re thinking about or focused on? I’m sure you can’t give away too much detail, but what are you, you know, thinking is the next stage of development for KiK in terms of loyalty?

Sebastian: First of all, of course, we had 14 countries, so there are more countries to come or more countries in which we want to launch myKiK. Because we see in all four countries, we’ve launched it before it works and it works very good. So of course we want to enter more countries with myKik, but still, as I said, we launched MVP character CRM systems. So we have to more and more professionalize the existing countries and programs. And so we have to keep both in mind and both are the next steps. So right now we focused on make it or make time to market as short as possible. And now we have to focus on professionalization on the one hand. And more and more countries on the other hand and being able to handle that by is a team we have and which is going to grow more and more. 

So, as you know, it’s sometimes it’s not relevant if you have 2000 stores in the country or 40. If you have a loyalty program with automated flows and communication, it’s the same effort you have to spend. So, so we should not overpace, but we are, as you said, quite ambitious. So the team is very excited to go further and further and to have Mikey all over Europe. But to focus on the learnings and now working with the data more and more, because the first aspect was collecting, but now we should improve or increase the work with it. And, that’s our two future main targets. 

Paula: Amazing. Yeah. And actually the very first time I think, when you were talking about your marketing history, I suppose, with my colleagues, I thought you made a great point that you’re much more on the data side of marketing, not the pictures. And, that’s definitely something that I felt was exactly me, you know, I’m not good on the brand building. But I really do love when I see something that is driving a behavior in a way, as powerfully as it is for you guys. So, a wonderfully inspiring story, Sebastian.

I think, the most important thing from my side is to stay in touch because for sure, as you celebrate your second birthday and of course, all of the different milestones for the program. We’d love to have you back on the show because I do think it’s one that all of our particularly retail loyalty practitioners listening to the show will be dying to hear how things are going. 

And on that topic specifically, Sebastian, I know a lot of people do like to reach out one to one if they have particular questions or things that they maybe want to understand a little bit in more detail. So if it’s okay with you, we will share your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. So people can reach out and connect because that’s, of course, a key part of the purpose of the show. 

And I guess my final comment then is just to have you anything that you wanted to mention today, because I’ve asked all of my questions, but anything else you wanted to mention before we wrap up?

Sebastian: I’m really looking forward to stay in contact with you and everybody else who is interested. So, feel free to contact me via LinkedIn. So I’m really keen to stay in touch with CRM experts and no, I’m really, do not have many open questions or topics, but, maybe one aspect, what we already talked about is, yeah, I think even CRM and data makes everything possible. You sometimes have to focus on the basics and is quite a good concept still in 2023. 

Paula: Totally. Totally. You’re absolutely right, Sebastian. That Pareto principle, I think we all learned it in school. And it wasn’t until I started this show, actually, that I did get enough people like you who are seeing it in practice in everyday marketing and revenue generating businesses. And Pareto principle is still something I hold very dear.

So listen, I just want to say again a huge congratulations, so as well as winning the Best Loyalty Launch of 2023, Sebastian, I know you also won the top 30 under 40, one of those incredible upcoming professionals from the International Loyalty Awards, so wishing you ongoing continued success.

So, Sebastian Hense, Head of Marketing and CRM for KiK Textiles, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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