Speaker 1 (0s):
Welcome to “Let’s Talk Loyalty” an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals.
I’m your host, Paula Thomas and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.
Hello and happy new year.
Welcome to let’s talk loyalty and welcome to 2022.
I don’t know about you guys, but I am super excited for the year ahead, so let’s get started.
First of all, I wanted to mention for any of you who didn’t hear that I’ve made one change to the show this year, and that’s the opening question.
So many of, you know, since I launched in 2019, I’ve always been asking my guests, what is their favorite loyalty statistic?
So after 175 episodes, I’ve decided to change that and instead, I’m asking my guests, what is their favorite loyalty program rather than their favorite loyalty statistic?
My hope is that will inspire all of us to hear about lots of other inspiring loyalty programs that we can learn from and certainly I think today’s show does exactly that.
It features a south African program that’s been running now for 21 years and has certainly gone from strength to strength.
eBucks has won a multitude of awards, including being recognized as the number one loyalty program that South African people say they couldn’t live without.
It’s even more impressive for those of us who believe that South Africa is actually probably the most mature and one of the most innovative countries in the world for its loyalty leadership and financial services is certainly one of the categories that’s leading this.
So without further ado, I’d like to introduce the CEO of ebucks, South Africa, Johann Moolman,
who share some of the brilliant principles and ideas that have made e-bucks such an iconic program.
So Johan joining me today from South Africa – welcome to let’s talk loyalty.
Speaker 2 (2m 26s): Thanks for having me, Paula. Appreciate your time.
Wonderful. Speaker 1 (2m 29s): Well, how is life in Pretoria? I think that’s where you’re based. Isn’t it? Speaker 2 (2m 34s): Yes. It’s, it’s absolutely great. We’re in seminar, so it’s, it’s nice and warm. We, we’re not in a lockdown situation at the moment. So touch wood that, that, that loss. But no, we were very blessed, great weather, great people. We got a good business and yeah, we were very fortunate down yet that the tip of Speaker 1 (2m 60s): Absolutely. And you definitely have a great business. And I also want to let listeners know that actually your program, the eBooks program has one. What I can tell is practically every loyalty award that’s available in the whole country. So just want to say a huge congratulations. We’ll get into the detail, but you must be so proud. Speaker 2 (3m 21s): Thanks very much and appreciate it. Look, it’s a program that’s been around now at 21, almost 22 years. So, so can’t, can’t take all the credit, you know, just, you know, a big, a lot of recognition has to go to everybody. That’s come before us that that’s enabled us to do this. So I guess we’ve got that for, for a short while. And we’d like to leave it in a better place than, than what we had before. And it’s a, oh, it’s a privilege to be able to help our customers. So, you know, I had sort of to the team, to the rest of the bank and our partners and our customers at the end of the day. Speaker 1 (4m 2s): Wonderful, wonderful. So let me get into my M usual first question, which as I said to you off air has changed because we are going to be releasing this bright and early in January, 2022. And so there will be two opening questions for you today and because I want a whole new vibe, so let’s start with the, his star, the one we’ve always used. What is your favorite loyalty statistic? Johan Speaker 2 (4m 30s): Paul. I’ve got plenty. So, but I guess the first one is that in a, in the last financial year, we paid out more than two and a half billion Rand of rewards to, to our customers. And that’s significant, you know, when, when you think about it, that it’s a program that is free to our customers, eBooks don’t expire. So we don’t play that old breakage model model game. And, and, you know, if you think about it in a business, when you can take away, you know, close to 10% of your, your profits and give that back to your customers and, and they use it, you know, what 90% of eBooks gets spent within the first 30 days of, of being given to customers, you know, it shows that it’s, you know, valuable. So, so we’re very fortunate. Like I said, it’s, it’s taken what 21 years plus to, to, to get us here and to remain relevant and to be able to, you know, help our customers on a daily basis is, is humbling. So, so I think that that is that’s probably, that is the quantum and how big the program is, is, is, is great because you know, many people have got programs. Yeah. But I think that we’re very fortunate that we can scale it in know and, and be able to touch so many different people’s lives. So that, that for me is a great, great step. Speaker 1 (6m 21s): Absolutely incredible. And uncertainly breakage is a hot topic for every loyalty professional Johann. And it’s always hard to know, I suppose, what’s the right level of, of engagement and spend for, for any currency. So what I’m hearing coming through for, from you is that the higher, the spend the better and absolutely extraordinary to get 90% in 30 days. And I think in the 21 years, it gets up to 93% overall. I saw on some documents, you sent me, it’s an incredible number. Speaker 2 (6m 54s): No look, we are not going to allow. We want our customers to earn, you know, as much eBooks as what they can. And there’s ultimately, you know, we we’d say loyalty, but it’s a behavior change program. So it’s hard. You drive good banking behavior. How do you drive good money management principles and ultimately provide it to a customer on a safe and secure platform where, where you’ve got trust there. And I think that word trust is what everything is about. Also, you know, being transparent and trying to make things easy for customers. You know, I would always say that, you know, you always hear loyalty programs or reward programs. It’s the jumping through hoops, et cetera, et cetera, but you got to try and make it as easy as, as possible and not hide it in the teas and seats. And then you build up trust and then I would eBooks and we’ll still be around in the next 21 years. And it was getting the team in as a, as the privilege of, you know, being able to tell how we changed our customer’s lives for the better, Speaker 1 (8m 11s): For sure. For sure. So, because it’s 2022 Johann, you have the honor and privilege, I hope of answering my new favorite opening question. Just, I felt it was time to, you know, mix things up a little bit and get into an understanding what you as a loyalty professional admire in other loyalty programs. So I guess the question that I’m going to be asking, and as I said, you’re the first one. What is your other favorite loyalty program other than eBooks? Speaker 2 (8m 44s): Other than Speaker 1 (8m 48s): I know Speaker 2 (8m 49s): I’d be biased if I, I wouldn’t say it’s UX. And we also very fortunate that it is right that South Africa is a most favorite and use the loyalty program. I don’t bank or have financial services with, or with was a competitor. So I unfortunately can’t mention and mention them, but we’ve, we’ve got a partner called Kauai. It’s a fresh food and smoothie risks. A small restaurant group is I can say small, they’re actually quite massive. And they’re, you know, it’s, it’s a, they’ve got absolutely great product that a great price and, you know, they, they loyalty, whether it’s there’s subscription for coffees or smoothies or the number of times that you go back. I think they’ve got a great platform, you know, and it’s not just because they’re one of our partners as well, but I think the way that they use the tech, how they engage with their customers has been been absolutely great. And it’s simple, you trust them, it’s a great product. And, and if you, if you can keep it simple like that, then, then you’re onto a winner. John, I really take my hat off to Dean and the team that quite Speaker 1 (10m 24s): Wonderful. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. And actually I did a show with Kauai with that, with Ross and to talk about the, the subscription program. Because again, it’s, it’s a hot topic and I’m sure as we go through 20, 22, there’ll be plenty more people jumping on that particular bandwagon. But listen back to eBooks and tell me, Johann. I know you’ve been working with FNB and the bank itself even before taking on the CEO role. So I think you’ll want a total of visit nearly 18 years in between the two Speaker 2 (10m 58s): Time flies. Yeah. Close to 18 years. I say very, very privileged to have been here for that amount of time. Had it had a number of different roles within the bank. And I said, enjoy the environment and enjoy what the bank stands for. You know, we’ve, we’ve been through a lot and the culture is just amazing and it’s, and it’s a privilege to work with, you know, people, people that really want to help our customers. So hopefully they don’t chase me away or I don’t go to break something, Speaker 1 (11m 36s): But Speaker 2 (11m 38s): Yeah, so far so good. Speaker 1 (11m 41s): So tell me Johan then, what is your philosophy on loyalty? So, you know, you’re leading this program and I’ll just quote, actually one of the particular M awards or recognition that eBooks received, which really reminded me of being meaning to get you on the show for such a long time. But obviously our friend, Amanda Crum house in truth does this extraordinary quite paper and to look at the whole market. And I think her favorite question, I’m guessing your favorite question as well is she always does ask, you know, what is the program that south Africans can’t live without? So I think you guys got that for the second year in a row. So FNB eBooks at tops that ranking table. So south African customers literally can’t live without you. So please share what is the kind of philosophy that gives that kind of extraordinary adoption? Speaker 2 (12m 35s): Look, I think since day one, I, and that’s why I said, thanks, thanks to the people that came before us. It’s, it’s about helping customers, you know, and we in the bank and eBooks, we, we all about transparency and trying to make things better for our customers. So, so we, we want to help. So whether it’s, you know, a customer that perhaps, you know, is, you know, in one of our lower earning subsegments or whether it’s a customer and ultra high net worth, it’s about being relevant to customers about being transparent, not, not hiding everything in the D’s. And C’s I’d most probably w we all know about the hoops that customers need to jump through. But when you partner that in a behavioral change program where you drive sound money management for a customer, because we want our customers to be well off, you know, we don’t want them to get into unnecessary debt or credit agreements that, that aren’t good for them. We want customers to say, so when you take all of those principles and you package that together, and you can add reward to it on a single entrusted platform and where it shows you the customer, but you don’t have to get this. Yeah. And another thing over there come to one place. That’s one relationship, one rewards program where you, where you earn almost for everything that you, you do, you start improving customer’s lives and not only their lives, but their families as well. And then we’re very fortunate. We, we work in quite an interesting bank, so, so we obviously do the transactional stuff, the credit stuff, but then you’d talk about investments, insurances, you know, we’re, we’re an Indian, oh, so we, we sell iPhones and then bod, so provide the data and all of that to it. But what’s great about it is it’s about help, right? So when you asked about the philosophy, when, when you put the customer first, you know, and you want to do what’s what’s right for the customer. Yeah. Chances are you’re going to win. Right. Robinson, all of those things will come later, but that’s not the glad to say, that’s not the main driver and your program has to be, be suited for that. So yeah. Spent quite a bit of time on our, on our digital platforms to try and make things easy. And I know we don’t get it right all the time, but we, we constantly try and improve. I’d be lying. If I said we don’t break things at that customers at times, you know, field feel done in. But I think that, that, that shows, you know, that customers are passionate about the sprain. eBucks, they’re passionate about the rewards that they get, because it actually helps them. So, you know, said what two and a half billion Rand in the last year, since inception, I think it’s more than 16 billion ran. You know, that, that down here in South Africa is a incredible amount of money. And, and, you know, I think the philosophy is if you, if you want to help, like we don’t sit in the office and see, okay, but we can, we, you know, save a little bit here or say it a little bit there. It’s about if a customer is banked, well, you’re going to be happy and you’re going to be well off and you should be rewarded for that. So, yeah, pretty simple, a lot of words for a very simple, Speaker 1 (16m 48s): But it’s incredible how rare it is. I genuinely, I mean, you know, we’ve all worked in, in, or at least witnessed the, the, you know, potential for let’s call it even greed in the corporate world. And I’m using that word because I, I recently interviewed Fred Reichheld and I don’t know if you know him, but he’s the creator of net promoter score. So for somebody who has built his entire career on, you know, making customers and so happy that they will recommend you to their friends, it’s, it’s, it’s just that same, same philosophy I’m hearing coming through. And he’s just really released a book. And the first thing I noticed about which is the word love came up constantly, which in a business context was, was really amazing. But exactly like you were saying, Johann, he talked about how many lives can we enrich? And that’s the only philosophy that, that he has that I can hear that eBooks has. It’s certainly the reason I got into loyalty. And at the end of the day, yes, we’re all business people. And we need to know, you know, I don’t understand the ranch conversion, so forgive me, but anything, any currency in the billions has to be, has to be extraordinary, but I think it comes through Johan, for example, when you talk about, and you mentioned it earlier, that eBooks don’t expire, like I wanted to just ask, was that a, a change of philosophy or has eBooks always had that philosophy that they would never expire Speaker 2 (18m 15s): Very, very happy to say, you know, it’s been there since inception, right? So since day one, when, when eBucks launched, eBucks don’t expire and 10, 10, the E-box is still equal to one Rand. So there’s It, hasn’t been devalued. And, and, and, you know, we’ve got more than 40 partners where you can spend your EBAC. So when I said, you know, 90% of E-box gets spent within the first 30 days, if you want to put in fuel, if you want to buy eight time, if you want to buy an airplane ticket, you know, all these things are available, not only at our platform, but our partners as well. You talked about a step earlier, one that I’m also particularly proud of because you can come onto our banking app and we’ve got what, six, six, and a half million customers on our, on our banking app, you know, South Africa, that’s, that’s a proper size, you know, the fastest airplane booking or a ticket booking was 22 seconds all the time from going into the logging, into the app, selecting your flights for your flights. And it’s about security and trust. You know, you, you don’t have to put in your personal details, you don’t have to put in your family details. Why? Because the bank already has that you don’t have to put in your card details. Why? Because the bank already has that. So that 22 second number is it’s pretty cool. We sell thousands of flights a day to, to our bank customers, you know, qualifying eBucks customers get a special bill. We, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s nice. Like you said, to, to do great stuff for your, for your customers, another cool stat is, you know, customers that do qualify for eBucks less than 1% of them ever leave the bank. So, so your attrition numbers or, or, you know, it does its job over there. And I’d lie. If I would say, you know, many of the other institutions in South Africa, don’t, don’t copy us and you know what, it’s great if they do, it’s probably good for their, for their customers. Yeah. But here it is. You know, what I also believe is, you know, you talked about philosophy and look, I’ve never worked for one of those organizations. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know what they, their philosophy is, but you know, they Steph expires the charge monthly fees. I don’t think that’s, that’s always necessary. And, and, but, but any case that’s, that’s, that’s their business. We can only control what we control. And, and we’re about more rewards for more customers. The more you you do with us, and the more you can trust us, the more we will rip off the, and it’s about a lifetime, you know, we, we don’t want some stuff for seniors, so what’s, what’s cool about the program, sorry, I’m scrambling on, but you know, it’s a sub segmented program, so it’s not one program for all customers because it’s a tiered program and level one is your lowest tier level. Five’s the highest two of the highest rates of rewards, et cetera. But in, but in each income bracket or segment, you know, we effectively have a different program because customers are different. So, you know, customers from all income segments can, can get on the top tier of rewards. So it’s, it’s not a program that says, okay, cool, we’re going to discriminate against the less wealthy because you need X, Y, and Z. It’s one program for everybody. And I think that’s, that’s that stood us in, in, in good state in time, you know, we’ve always been a bank and a program that talks about value. Like we have to give proper value back to customers. If you don’t provide value, then, then you’re not going to be in this game. So, so we’ve been fortunate to build this without partners. You know, I haven’t said we’ve got more than 40 partners on that partake in the program are our customers, you know, they’ve been incredibly loyal through, through, through this journey. I had to think where if it be an e-bikes yeah. Was and what the program was 20 years ago to, to where it is now. Yeah. I know. It’s incredible to see that, that journey and, and it’s, it’s humbling. So yeah, it’s at the end of the day, again, if, if you can help customers and then you’re done, don’t treat all custard sounds weird. But when he says don’t treat all customers, the same means don’t discriminate, you know, give everybody a fair chance. And if you’re relevant, then customers will respond. If you’re not well in a, they weren’t so Speaker 1 (23m 46s): Big responsibility. Speaker 2 (23m 49s): I don’t know. Luckily I’ve got a great team with, so they make my life easy. Speaker 1 (23m 53s): For sure. And I loved that. You mentioned the partners Johan because, you know, obviously South Africa doesn’t really have a coalition program in the same way as maybe the UK or, or other countries would have, but what you are giving is the breadth and depth of both earn and burn. I think that’s extraordinary to have that level of literally real-time redemption of eBooks, even in your partner stores, if I’m right in understanding Speaker 2 (24m 19s): No, that’s that’s 100% correct. So obviously we’re very fortunate. We have a we’re a bank so we can understand customer’s behavior and they take the pretty well, but E-box has always been about being able to earn and burn for your day-to-day spin. Right. And, and always, like I said, the more you have with a bank, the more you earn and it’s on categories that are important, you know, so whether it’s groceries, you know, we’ve, we’ve got the largest retailer in Africa, ShopRite checkers as a partner still, we we’ve got engine it’s the largest few, or would we say retailer, South Africa? And you know, those, those are, you know, that’s definitely not all, but it’s some of the great ones. And, and, and here’s the thing in a few years, a customer go around and, you know, everything that I’m doing is, is ultimately going to benefit me. And I, and I can use that whenever I want, however I want, but then, then you’re in a very fortunate position. So, so look, I think that the fact that many of the, these partners haven’t chased us away is hopefully showing that we, we, we make a difference in their lives because ultimately, yes, we, I think you’d know, well, you know, getting the EBAC spend, but part of that two and a half billion Rand spend into your, into your environment is one thing. But switching customers spend, you know, on their respective debit and credit cards, that’s where the real behavior shift happens. So we’re very fortunate as a bank. I think in South Africa today, you know, in the card space, you know, about 30, 30, 30, 4% of all card spend is, is in be spent. And in the online spend, it goes to the 40% mark of card space. So, you know, we, we, our customers change behavior based on what they find as, as value. We, we always try and partner with the number one or the number two player in, in a specific segment. So partners have been absolutely great. We couldn’t have done this without them, and they’ve helped us to provide good, good value to customers. So I think this ecosystem has been it’s all about what the value ecosystem. It sounds very MBA ish. Speaker 1 (27m 12s): Well, you know, why not? I think you have an MBA. Did I see that on your profile? Speaker 2 (27m 17s): But I think they gave me a few papers here and there. My dad had to pay them a lot of money to give me first things, but I think that that ecosystem is important. And I think that’s gonna, you know, we working on quite a few initiatives at the moment that we’re going to launch next year. And I can’t tell you how excited I am as we’re going to do like world first. And that’s, what’s nice because I think that, you know, the environment allows us to, to be creative, to be innovative, to, to try things. And, and I guess, you know, that’s, that’s, what’s nice about being in the, in the bank that we are we’re, we’re allowed to do things, things like that without that, there’s never say there’s no red tape, but Speaker 1 (28m 9s): I can imagine Speaker 2 (28m 10s): We, we, we encourage our people to do things, to help our customers. And if you make a mistake, great, everybody will be hands on deck to, to fix it. Yeah. When you get things right. It’s a beautiful thing to watch. Speaker 1 (28m 25s): Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I mean, it’s, it’s so rewarding. I can imagine, you know, watching it unfold, watching the adoption of, of every new innovation. And I was doing a bit of research obviously before today, and I did even see that FNB is the oldest bank in South Africa. So you guys have always been innovative and the original bank was 1838. I thought it was. Speaker 2 (28m 48s): Yeah. I think it’s a, what 180 years plus. So, you know, I said it before, we were very fortunate that for this time that we, we are the, the, the pallbearers or the flag bearers and, and we’ve got a responsibility towards, you know, customers number one. So, so that’s, that’s, that’s where our priority is, but also the people that have come before us and, and, and we do, we, we all would like to leave the organization in a better place than what it was for those that will, will take over from us. So we just got to have fun while we, while we here and try and make a difference. Speaker 1 (29m 46s): I don’t think anybody’s actually articulated it so well, Johan, because if there’s anything, any of us would want to do, you know, when you think about your, your job and your career, like actually having fun it’s usually comes well, I think it’s actually, it’s usually for forgotten, but you guys seem to have so much fun with the eBooks program. Speaker 2 (30m 3s): Yeah, we definitely do. We definitely do. I’d lie if I say they, they weren’t some tears shed every now and again, I think it’s about the, you know, people are passionate about what, what they do, and we believe in, in, in what we do. So, you know, there there’s, there’s there’s room for a lot of debate, you know, as, as, as you can imagine in a bank, you know, we’ll have a lot of staff on our program. We always have the challenge ourselves as all, we brought bullying the program for ourselves, or we building the program for our customers, but it’s, you got to fun. I mean, we spend so much of our, of our time, time. Yeah. I’ll always joke with my many of my colleagues. They make money and the team and I get to give it away. And isn’t a profit driver, you know, like I don’t need, I mustn’t lose money, but I don’t need to, to make money. I must my job and team’s job to provide value to customers. So I think that, that, that’s also, you know, because it’s what 21 years, all it’s part of our DNA. We’ve had many, many banks either from the UK or Australia or the us come visit us and say guests, but how do you, how do you do this? How do you just take 10% of your profits and, and give it back to the customer without charging for it, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, we, we, we show it to them, you know, like believe it’s transparent, you know, anybody can go onto our website or app today and see exactly what we do per sub segment. What we offer is a lack. It’s not a secret, but in a way that is a secret because it’s in our DNA as to how over 21 years people have bought two trusted, you know, the two and a half billion round that we gave away. Like, like somewhere, we’ve got to create the value, right? Where, you know, by allowing customers to bank better, whether it’s digitally saving, passata their cross selling increasingly ASI attracting new customers like that, that money needs to be created from in some way in this cost conscious, will it almost probably be easy to say, Hey, we’re going through a tough time. You know, now all of a sudden, you know, there’s other programs, you cut the value of the reward in, in off overnight. It was you change your, and that’s just not what we’re we’re about. So it’s about creating value. That’s why we call it a reward program and not a loyalty program. The more you do, the more you do with this, you know, the more you’re going to get back for those daily activities, but it’s fun. It’s a lot of fun Speaker 1 (33m 32s): Just on those KPIs then Johan you’ve talked through, if you don’t, you know, if there is no kind of revenue line objective for the program, which, you know, again, music to my ears is the business case. Then mainly focused on the retention that you mentioned earlier. So, you know, if, if less than 1% ever leave the bank, you know, when they’re members of eBooks that surely alone would, would drive the business case, or is it a mix of more than that? Is it the cross sell up sell piece? Speaker 2 (34m 0s): So I think good money management. So in many managements, there’s a lot of things to two different people, right? And I think that’s where, you know, the program really drives it well per sub segment, because at different stages in your life, you need different things, Speaker 1 (34m 18s): Right? Speaker 2 (34m 20s): And if I asked you for the wrong thing at the wrong stage of your life, I’m going to get you into trouble somewhere. You don’t want troubles because then, you know, you get Duffy economic times and then, you know, customers get into trouble. And if your customers are in trouble, well, then you, you struggle in business. So we, we, when I say we drive good bait banking behavior, we want customers to, to have solid financial lives, be, be in homes to be able to retire, to be able to bring their families in. So that’s a retention is one obviously attract new new customers. And then that cross sell as those things happen due to good money management principles. So, so the, the goal is not to say this, I need to cross sell X amount of, of product because there is a revenue opportunity that the goal is to say is here’s a bunch of customers that need a proper retirement plan, because if they don’t, they’re going to be in trouble. And, you know, they, there’s different ways to incentivize customers and, and he bucks X as one of those incentives. And then, you know, we, we obviously go on our program and let’s stop the tick and stuff. Like, I can give you the rules on a website, but I can give it to you on the app. I can allow you to take up product cross sell, you know, and, and, and get you to level up in those tears. Almost instantaneously led you see where, where you’re tracking in your rewards for, for the month. So I think the more transparent that helps. And again, if, if, if you’re driven by help and money management, then, then, then I think the profits will look after themselves. Otherwise I would have to be a salesperson Speaker 1 (36m 32s): That would not be, it wouldn’t suit you Johan. I don’t think so. Speaker 2 (36m 36s): I think people would do, man, Speaker 1 (36m 39s): But I liked what you talked about, the, the progress party Johan, because I saw some of the screenshots of the app and to be able to see which, you know, in my mind is, you know, probably gamification, I don’t know if you use that term for it, but, you know, to kind of see, you know, progress indicators, you know, this is what you can earn on. This is how many tasks you’ve achieved, you know, one out of 20, or, you know, that gets the competitive nature going. And I know you said to me before south Africans are quite competitive. Speaker 2 (37m 8s): I know we’re, we’re a competitive bunch. And I think we, we punch above our weight, I guess, in, in most instances. But I think those, those data tools, I mean, it’s all data that’s available to everyone. So, so let’s give it to our customers. And like I said, make it transparent to make it, make it easy to use, because you can have a very complicated program, but if you presented to a customer in a simplified manner, well, we’ll you overcome that, that, that hurdle. So a lot of time and effort is, has gone into that. And, and we’ve received, you know, we’re very fortunate. We we’ve always pushed the digital strategy extremely hard in, in FNB and, and got our customers to adopt the safe platforms. Cause it’s all about trust at the end of the day and present information and data that that customers can, can trust us with and, and not try and pull the wool over there. They are. It’s like I said, I, I would love, I’m very lucky. I’ve got a team of and financial modelers that are a hell of a lot more, more clever than me, but we want our customers to earn what eBooks we want our customers to spend the bucks we want. We, we, we want it definitely not in the movie of, I don’t get a budget in the beginning of the year and get told, okay, eBooks, this is what you’re allowed to spend, go and fit it in there. It’s about how do you drive that? And that link between behavior and and reward is, is key. You know, there’s, there’s another bank that recently launched in South Africa and they talked about what being the first behavioral change bank in the, in the world and all those good things. And it’s, it’s, it’s incredible to see in the back of my mind, but you know, he’s been doing this for like three, one years, so welcome. And, you know, it’s, it’s good for competition and that, and, and, you know, it’s, it’s funny, that’s what South Africa is about 120 plus different rewards and loyalty programs. So it’s competitive, as you said, we’re competitive bunch. So we, we like to, to give each other go. Yeah. But if partners and, and, and customers, wouldn’t why not? Yeah. I mean, that’s part of the fun. Speaker 1 (40m 11s): Well, listen, on that note, Johan, I do feel like a dead talked to you for at least another hour. And so forgive me that, I just think we’ll have to do a second follow-up show. I think you have some incredibly exciting things that are coming up in 2022, which we’ve obviously just kicked off. So I’ll be dying to hear more about those. But tell me, before we wrap up, is there anything else you wanted to highlight from an eBooks perspective? Speaker 2 (40m 38s): I think for me, the biggest highlight is I think the team that we get to work with is, is incredible. Yeah. Our partners and our customers. And I mean, that’s, that’s why we, we, yeah. And it’s nice to be able to, to know it and know it’s, and it’s, it’s humbling. It’s a humbling and fun at the same time. And, and hopefully, again, hopefully you don’t hear from me the next time, if something breaks, Speaker 1 (41m 18s): Listen, it’s a fabulous story. Yohanna. I have to say, I’m very inspired by the work that you’re doing. And as I said, plenty more to talk about in the future, but just want to close by saying congratulations again, on all the incredible awards that you’ve won and all of the extraordinary work you’re doing. So Johann mailman, chief executive officer of eBooks rewards. Thank you so much from let’s talk loyalty. This show is sponsored by the wise market here. The world’s most popular source of loyalty, marketing news insights and research. The wise marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its loyalty academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty and marketing professionals. For more information, check out the wise market, tier.com and loyalty academy.org. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of let’s talk loyalty. 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