#449: Celebrating Phaedon - ICF Next's new Brand Identity

Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.

Just before we share today’s episode, I want to ask you to sign up to the Let’s Talk Loyalty email newsletter. Our email newsletter is by far the best way for us to keep you up to date with all of the latest incredible loyalty stories we’re sharing each week. It’s also the easiest place for you to find our show notes, with links to everything mentioned in all of the episodes.

You can sign up at letstalkloyalty.com.

Hello and welcome to today’s episode all about Phaedon. It’s a name that many of you might not yet have heard. But it’s one you’re going to be hearing a lot of in the future for sure. Phaedon is the new name for the commercial marketing division of ICF Next, which famously runs some of the world’s largest loyalty programs, particularly in travel and hospitality.

This division was recently acquired by private equity firm Cohere Capital, which includes the entire team of loyalty experts, their loyalty technology platform Tally, and of course their incredible client portfolio, all together now operating under this brand new name. Joining me to share the whole story of this exciting industry development are Tom Madden, Executive Vice President and Managing Partner, and Denise Holt, Senior Vice President, Head of Strategy, Experience, Research and Insights. Together, Tom and Denise share the rich history of Phaedon and their plans for the future as they begin this exciting new phase of the business.

So Tom Madden and Denise Holt, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty. 

Tom: Thank you. Thank you Paula. I really appreciate the opportunity and on behalf of of all of Phaedon. 

Paula: Thank you so much, Tom. Do you know, I was thinking in preparation for today, I almost can’t believe we haven’t met before because we have several hundred people in common in our network. So I think we talked off air that it’s a very small world in terms of loyalty. So I’m very proud to be here and able to share your latest news, big story with our audience today. 

So before we get into all of the big business updates, as you know, we always start this show trying to get a sense as loyalty professionals, what do we admire in terms of loyalty programs? And I know it’s always a little bit sensitive when you have a client base like you guys, but let’s kick off with you, Tom, first and foremost, if I asked you your favorite loyalty program, what would you tell me? 

Tom: So, I think it’s, I think it’s a great question and people always answer within different contexts, right? Some people answer out of convenience. Some people answer out of, you know, best point value. One of the things that I, that I find I like, it’s and I’m not necessarily going to name a brand here, but the idea of a subscription based loyalty. I’m a big fan of this, because especially when it’s added on to a, to a regular loyalty program, it enables the brands to provide so much more focused value to the you know, long standing members and those who transact a lot with the brands and with their partners. I love subscription based. I think it’s a big, strong place that loyalty is going to really strongly in the next next 5  years. 

Paula: Amazing. Yeah, it’s actually a favorite of mine as well, Tom. I remember writing some articles about it probably about three or four years ago now, I suppose, when it started to become mainstream, I suppose, when Amazon Prime started to showcase exactly what was possible. And I remember we started using the words extreme loyalty, because to me, it’s one thing to actually say I’m loyal and to gather my points, but you know, you put your money where your mouth is. It’s absolutely extreme loyalty, huh? 

Tom: And it separates out kind of just once in a while participants with longstanding and frequent participants and members. 

Paula: Absolutely. Yes. And I guess having been through some challenging years, I think a lot of brands did realize that actually, if you’ve got a subscriber base, first of all, in terms of the overall company value, of course, it’s just more stable, more reassuring for everyone. But you’re right. I think there’s massive opportunity in that space. So one will be watching with interest and dying to hear further insights as we go forward with that. 

So Denise coming to you then in terms of a favorite loyalty program. Now, if you were to pick one, what would you say for our listeners? 

Denise: Yeah, I’m also going a little bit of a different route. There’s certainly from previous podcasts, I would agree with many people who have talked before about some of the favorite brands and the most frequently used. For me though, the one I’m going to give is Resy.

It’s actually a dining reservation tool. But this, this brings to light for me great CRM and personalization and some, some partnership strategy. What Resy does for me, I’m a foodie. I love restaurants. It’s a, it’s a social component of my life. I, I love interesting foods. And what Resy does is they take personalization to the next level.

Not only are they a booking tool to connect you to new restaurants, great restaurants in your area. They help to tap into what you love about food and they curate an experience and they curate content based on what they’re learning about you along the way with your reservations. 

One of the communications that really resonated with me was we’re, we’re kind of getting used to this annual recap of your relationship with the brand. And what Resy did is it was our Resy reservation ship. So it was the relationship that they talk about and the connection to the culinary arts and cuisine and they did, you know, they had talked about where I first booked. In my relationship with Resy, the restaurant that I most often booked, and they said Lucky Them, they talked about the most recent one, and then they had recommendations based on my history. So restaurants that I may not have been thinking of, but based on where I’ve been before, I might want to be in the know. 

And then the connection to business, because I know that’s not a traditional brand answer, but the connection to business is that they do partnerships with like American Express, for example, who is known for travel and dining, and they will offer special access, special access to reservations or exclusive events and experiences through their partnerships. So I just really appreciate it because I think one, it’s engaging and entertaining for me. It taps into what I love and then it also brings it to life in a really engaging way.

Paula: That’s exactly why we asked this question, Denise, because we want to know what industry professionals are picking up on. So there’s, there’s just a whole host of things you’ve mentioned there that I really love. And you probably won’t be surprised as a content creator. That actually the part that I love most about what you just said is the role of content. Because much like subscription, as Tom said, I actually think, you know, creating and curating content is a differentiator for brands as we go forward in this emotional loyalty world, which I know is close to your heart. So open invitation if Resy is happens to be listening to our show at any point, we would love to have you on to talk about all of that amazing work you’re clearly doing. 

So listen, we’re off to an amazing start. They are brilliant examples, both of you, but of course we’re here to share the really big news, which I know is just been breaking in recent months. And Tom, I guess I’ll come to you to to get I suppose, first of all, a sense of what is the news and the announcement that we’re here to talk about. And then we’ll talk about your career and how we’ve ended up in, in this particular wonderful news. 

Tom: Certainly, yeah, I’m excited to talk about this just in the last few weeks, but we are Phaedon. So everybody who knows us as ICF Next, all the same great people. All the teams that our clients work with all of our existing clients, all of our technology, everything comes with us from our former parent company, ICF to our new parent company, Cohere Capital. 

And in the process, we we changed our name to Phaedon, which, which, as you know, it is really about light and giving and that’s how we look at how to work with our clients, right? The clients are at the center of everything we do. They’ll continue to be so even more so as we’ll have new investment to continue to put into our products and services to ensure we’re leading our clients to where they want to get to rather than just kind of following the pack, if you will.

So, it’s it’s an exciting time for us. It’s a lot of work. It’s a, it’s a multiple month transition from, from one to the other, all of our client teams are still 100 percent focused on the work they have to do to ensure our clients succeed. 

Paula: Yeah, absolutely. And will you give us a bit of the back story, Tom? Because I think I said to you off air, I’m personally fascinated with how particularly agencies both grow and evolve and of course are acquired. So why was it that for ICF Next, there was this opportunity, I guess, for new ownership? And again, of course, new investment is always incredible. You guys are already incredibly successful. So why the change? 

Tom: It’s a great question. ICF has been a great parent company of ours, but ICF, for those who are familiar with them, they’re a, they’re a large public company that really focuses in the consulting side of things. Right? So they’re, they’re big into government consulting, energy, aviation and other areas.

And the commercial marketing side was all about the solution side. Like, we’re the ones who actually are going to, you know, put feet on the ground and make things happen. So not only do we come up with the ideas on the Phaedon inside through Denise and her team and our colleague, Emily Merkle and her team, but then we put them into place with Mark Halterman and Cindy Roseland on our team as well.

And so the, the putting things into place is what kept us kind of different, if you will, from the rest of ICF. So it just wasn’t always the great, great fit that it could be here is saying, hey, we’ve got an opportunity to continue to invest, invest in the products. For example, our toil, our proprietary loyalty platform called Tally to continue to invest in these things.

So we remain in the forefront. This our platform is the basis of some of the largest programs in the world, including for the largest 10 hoteliers in the world. And so that requires continual investment and continual foresight and looking out as to what is going to be required 2 years from now and 5 years from now. And we’re excited to do that. And so we’re super happy about the change and we’re going to miss our old friends at ICF. They’re fantastic. Very dear friends. Colleagues started out as colleagues and became dear friends. 

Paula: Absolutely, yes. But I’m guessing what you won’t miss is the complexity of a public company. I hadn’t actually realized that was also a part of the ICF Next story because there’s so much more responsibilities, I guess. And, you know, when we need to be flexible and evolving and growing, as clearly Cohere Group are, are here to do, that’s that’s a. Big differentiation. So yeah, spinning out, giving you guys autonomy, freedom and flexibility, and we’ll certainly get into a little bit more about all of those clients that you mentioned, because there’s some incredible statistics that you sent me in advance, which I think the audience would love to hear.

So Denise, let me come to you, I suppose, to get a sense of, I suppose, first of all, your career background and your role in Phaedon as as it takes off. 

Denise:  At Phaedon, I lead, I’m on the SVP of strategy, experience, research, and insights, Siri for short. And my background has been over 20 years and mostly the loyalty industry very, very focused.

The theme throughout my career has been on a focus on customer insights. And really the human side, making sure that we really understand what’s going on in the mindsets of consumers and in different industries and the trends and industries, and then how we translate that into strategies for our clients to really impact their business in a positive way and to help strengthen the connection that they have with their end user.

So I have been in loyalty, a lot of focus in travel and hospitality and retail, other industries as well. I did a stint at Optum, part of the United Health Group. That was a really interesting part of the career taking that same insight piece, but talking about patient and member insights and bringing it to a personal health and wellness space.

I’ve done my own consulting business for strategy, helping entrepreneurs to build their businesses and then was recruited into I see up next from former colleagues. We talked about how small the loyalty world is and that absolutely was the case. So joining ICF Next at the time, I knew at least about 40 different individuals who I’d worked with in the past. So it’s really it’s a really great time. I say same family, different house.

I think that that leads into kind of the transition to Phaedon. This is the best of both worlds because it’s the fun and excitement of starting a bit fresh in your brand and your personality and your, yeah, what you’re going to stand for in and the mark you’re going to make for clients.

Yet we’re bringing along as Tom had said, all of our great talented colleagues and our clients. And so we have the benefits of that as well. So now it’s time to take our superpowers and apply them to ourselves as we grow our own business in addition to our clients. 

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. I love words as I think my audience know from having all these amazing conversations. So I like that. We’ll take our superpowers. I think that’s a really nice way of framing it. And actually, Tom, on your LinkedIn profile, I saw some lovely words as well, which I think epitomizes exactly what Phaedon is now doing, of course, what ICF Next was doing. And you talk about flawless execution which I thought was a brilliant way. 

So would you maybe talk us through your career? Because there’s some incredible credentials there and clearly that’s a, I suppose, a value for you in terms of how you run your businesses. So tell us about the career history that got you to where you are today. 

Tom: Sure. I’m happy to. Yeah. So I’ve spent my entire career in loyalty marketing, always on the partner or the agency side. I grew up first in traffic and operations. So I’ve got a very strong background in operations before switching to the client or account account management side of things. Over the years, I continue to to take on responsibility around strategy and around business development.

And then you fast forward to the last 15 years or so having senior and executive leadership roles, running entire operation side of organizations, entire revenue sides of organizations. And I think that’s important because most people kind of grow up in one field and stick with it, and then they’re really strong in that because of that.

But because I have a lot of different aspects all around loyalty management and program design and managing the programs. That’s that’s why I feel strongly about flawless execution. Look, we all make mistakes. Everybody does. So, it’s not to say that anybody’s perfect, but how you handle those mistakes, or how you address the problems as they come up is what matters. And that’s what builds long term partnerships and relationships. 

Paula: No, and it’s a good point, Tom, and very nice of you to say it that way. I think you’re absolutely right. None of us is flawless. I wish we were. But to me, the difference is if you set that intention, at least you have a much better chance of getting there.

So to me, it is a mindset that I saw coming through and in what you were sharing that I admired, I guess, and clearly has led to a lot of the success and some of the clients that you you mentioned very briefly, Tom, but maybe give us a bit more in terms of, you know, given where you’ve come so far and I suppose all of the history with these incredible brands, these incredible colleagues coming together.

If you were to pick out a few things that you’re super proud of, like there’s some incredible numbers that you shared, what would you share that you’re most proud of in the business that you have built so far? 

Tom: Well, I, I think, you know, in, in my background, I’ve worked with well over 150 to 160 loyalty programs in pretty much all the industries that we all touch, right? Anything from hospitality and retail to gaming and telecom and, and healthcare as, as Denise mentioned. 

But one of the things I’m, I’m, I’m most proud about, and, and Denise kind of hinted at this a little bit. If you look at the team at Phaedon, I would say the majority of us have worked with each other over multiple companies. And so, Paula, when you talked early on about kind of the family tree, if you will, of loyalty, just kind of surprising that you and I haven’t met. I’m surprised, too, because if you look at that family tree and go back far enough.

The opportunity to work with and meet a lot of really smart people. And so, so it’s a long way. It’s a long way from a long winded way for me to say that. I’m particularly proud in how we build a high performance, high functioning teams that really work together and become friends over time.

Because that’s what then helps us operate at I hate the cliche, but a little bit more of a one plus one equals three, right? You can have two smart people in the world and in the same room, and they’re going to both do a great job. And if those smart people have worked together for multiple scenarios of maybe multiple companies that become friends, you’re going to get, you’re going to get way better output, way more output helping our clients succeed.

Paula: Yeah. Incredible. That sheer number of loyalty programs, Tom, my goodness, the mind boggles in terms of keeping track of all of those strategies and, and even now, so some of the stats that I loved, 400 million members being managed through obviously now Phaedon’s business across 80 different clients. So astronomical.

And then 1. 4 trillion points earned and burned each year, which I thought was incredible and over 5 billion transactions. So clearly operating with both excellence and scale and clearly something you’re super proud of. 

Tom: Very much so. There’s a couple of things I’d point out. One is a Tally, which is our, our loyalty platform is, is really built for scale enterprise strong programs that are very complicated. It’s not really made. It’s not meant for you know, Jimmy’s pizza outlet. And so we’re proud of the brands that we serve on that, but 400 million members and that grows at a very large clip annually. Because the, the, the platform enables that for our clients, but you know, but that’s really we’ve got a great technology team headed up by Mark Alterman and a great team headed up by Chris Gerber, who’s to build out a 4 year roadmap for our product.

You know, that’s not even talking about the analytics side with Emily Merkle. She’s built a proprietary product. That’s really enabled. Accelerated growth for our clients around analytics and the membership and how to segment and promote to the members. So there’s a lot of really cool stuff going on and all we need is just, we just need the clock to keep ticking so we can keep advance it. 

Paula: Totally, totally. Actually, the way I was thinking about it as I was preparing for today is like, you guys seem to deal with brands who are taking loyalty seriously. Like this isn’t just  you know, tactical campaigns, let’s try something or let’s do it for whatever reason. These are Fortune 500 brands who absolutely believe that this is imperative for their business. 

And I think that’s what I always aspire to. And I can see Denise nodding as well. So I’ll be dying to get your perspective to me. Like I’ve worked in obviously lots of different loyalty programs as well over my career. And the leadership style of why they’re doing loyalty and what they expect from the loyalty team really dictates how I as a loyalty professional can enjoy delivering to the best of my ability. So actually Denise, I’d love you to comment on that because I do think I can see that you’re really, you know, have a very strong belief in this ethos, I guess, and the humanity behind everything that of course the technology enables.

But tell us, you know, what are you seeing and feeling as the key things that are driving success for loyalty for Phaedon?

Denise: Yeah, I think we are, we pride ourselves on being strategy first. And really grounded in empathy and insight and data insights as well. And so though we have a  world class loyalty platform, we approach our clients and their businesses, tech agnostic, and we want to make sure that we’re hitting home on the strategy and it’s the right strategy for their end customers, and that it’s the right strategy for their business in the long term.

Before we figure out how to enable that strategy with the proper technology and channels. So that’s been really important to us. And because of that, we ensure that we have research to back it up. We do our own proprietary research. It’s been over 5 years, 5 and a half years now that we did our emotional loyalty research and you know, emotional loyalty.

You hear that everywhere nowadays, but we were definitely on the leading edge of bringing emotional loyalty to the marketplace with that research. And we uncover 6 key drivers of emotional loyalty and we wanted to understand that. So we knew. Kind of how to have a guiding north star when we were developing strategies for our clients. And so we came, we uncovered six that we’ve laddered up to really three strong ones, trust, appreciation, and empathy. 

So we’ve really baked that into everything we do in the framework for how we approach strategies and our clients have really, really resonated with that. We definitely even 1 new business based on the fact that we were taking that approach and being very customer centric and then being able to guide our clients through we do interactive workshops to help bring that to life and align with those emotional loyalty drivers. And we’ve really seen that even though the research itself was dated since we were on the leading edge of that it really has. Stood the test of time and the principle behind what it what it means has stood the test of time. So we’ve continued to build upon that and just this year.  So that was the humanizing loyalty is the report that was back from 5 and a half years ago. That will give all the details on that. 

But we’ve taken that further. One of the 6 drivers is shared values. And so we feel that especially post pandemic and the social injustice that we’ve seen, we have felt the need to really understand the impact of shared values and beliefs on customers and whether it’s important or not that a brand align with customers, brands or customers beliefs.

Paula: Yeah, that’s wonderful stuff. I was hesitating there for a second, Denise, because of about three different questions I want to ask you on it. First of all, as you said, that emotional loyalty piece is something we do hear about on this show all of the time. And I would just love your perspective on it because I feel like everybody understands the idea of it, but then the, you know, the how, you know, the, the absolute implementation of taking an emotional loyalty approach within a loyalty program.

Like what I’d love to even, first of all, ask is, do you think that’s something that senior leadership in the type of clients you work with, is that something that they’re comfortable talking about? Because at the end of the day, you know, the C suite can be very transactional. We did talk already, of course, about the fact that it is seen as, as an ethos, but how does that, you know, I suppose, soft language, you know, you know, resonate with C suite leaders when you bring that kind of research to them?

Denise: I think they’re seeing an understanding that customers will drive the success of their business going forward and that the expectations have risen drastically. As far as what they, the personalization they expect the if they’re, they’re willing to give you information about themselves. But they assume that you’re going to translate that into something of value to them.

So, I think the implications for personalization and it sparks the need for human centered design. And we’ve all heard that that term term before, but it’s really being grounded in the end user and their needs and not making decisions from a boardroom. So I think that’s where people have gotten leadership has gotten caught up in in the past is making decisions based on their own personal preferences and the way that they live.

And so I think human centered design has really brought the focus back to being customer centric and deeply understanding the needs and lives of your end users. And then making sure you’re solutioning for them and making their lives easier. So, you know, trust, trust and reliability, appreciation and investments, empathy and shared values. Those are the 6 key drivers of emotional loyalty and the way in which you bring that to bear. We’ve seen organizations bringing marketing teams together. Even if teams are currently siloed, we’re helping to be a conduit to bring them together and interactive workshops. 

For example, they’re seeing the benefit of leveraging cross functional, diverse thinking and you align them by having a consistent language around these emotional loyalty drivers. And a customer centric focus, because if your decision making and your ideation is coming from that customer centric focus, then you’re all trying to achieve the same goal.

And that’s a stronger, more emotional relationship with with the customer. I think there’s efficiency to be gained within an organization. Not to mention the, the business impact that comes from a stronger relationship with your customers. 

Paula: Amazing. Amazing. So what I will do, Denise again, just for everyone listening is to make sure that I have that research available directly from you. So, I know, of course, you’re in transition with the Phaedon new website. Of course, I know the LinkedIn page is available. But just, I suppose we can just literally say, if anybody wants to see a copy of that research about specific emotional loyalty, just reach out to me and I’ll make sure to connect them with you. So you can share that. 

Because as you said, I don’t think it’s aged. I think if anything, we’re still all dealing with what happens post pandemic and what does that shared value piece mean? So I think it is a time to be future focused and we’re coming towards the end of the year, I guess, as well. I guess we all need to be thinking about 2024.

Denise: Absolutely. 

Paula: Great. 

Denise: Just the final, the final comment on the research piece of it is the new research that we launched this year around sparking participation through shared values. We can share the link to that as well, but 1 of the key insights that came there was that the number one reason that consumers stop buying from brand is the lack of shared values. And 66 percent will buy less or stop buying when the values don’t align.It was a take on from our original research and we continue to build upon it.

Paula: Okay. Well, I did laugh when I saw that one of the headlines, which talked about don’t treat your customer like a one night stand. And I was like, Oh my God, absolutely. Let’s actually love each other. So totally get it. 

Tom, we’ve talked a lot about how we’ve got to where we are today. It’s coming up to the end of October as we release this recording. And now, as we said, time to see, you know, what is Phaedon going to be focused on as we go forward into 2024. I know there’s a gradual transition in terms of obviously, you know, helping everybody understand the new name, the new spelling the meaning of that name. So just tell us, what are you thinking about as we go into this exciting new phase for the business? 

Tom: Well, we definitely have we have work to do to get our, our new brand out make sure people understand we’ve got the same great team same, same great clients, but we’ve got a new name. So we’ve got our work cut out around that. 

But, you know, Paula, Let’s Talk Loyalty is really about education, innovation, and inspiration, right? That’s one of the things you’ve, you’ve shared that comes through in the, in the podcast. We’ll continue to focus on the education side as a, as a client center of everything we do.

We produce well over 70 pieces of thought leadership each year. Those are out on our website and LinkedIn and the like, and we promote those as we can. And then we’ve got strategic business reviews with all of our clients. Denise’s team plays a big key part on the demos showing what’s going on trends in their industry and other industries and the like around innovation.

We’ve got we’ve got an extensive road map built out for our technologies are analytic technologies are proprietary loyalty platform technologies and then the service offered within strategy and analytics and the like. And so we’ve got a real big road map that we’ve built out that we’re going to continue to invest in and work through.

And then when you think about inspiration, you know, again, I’ve said it 100 times and I’ll say it 100 more clients are at the center of everything we do. And so we’re very proud that we’re behind some of the largest programs in the world that are award winning or fan favorites, whether it’s through USA Today or Newsweek or Points Guy or whatever, they’re always top rated programs.

And so that’s inspirational for us. That drives us that drives our team. And so those are some of the things we’ll, we’ll yeah. We’ll continue to keep focused on 

Paula: Amazing. I hadn’t realized that you guys invested so much in thought leadership, Tom. So clearly I haven’t been paying enough attention. So we’ll, we’ll make sure to connect to all of that.

To me again, that is the sign of an agency that does have obviously your client’s interest at heart, because at the end of the day and also actually to, to thank you for reflecting back our values to us, because we probably don’t you know, sufficiently help our audience understand that we ask you to come to this show to talk about education, inspiration, and innovation. So thank you for doing that and for doing what you do, of course, now on your own websites to create all of that thought leadership. 

So, Denise, coming to you, future focused, we’ve talked a lot about where we’ve got to, the amazing research and, you know, all of these things you’re so passionate about in terms of guiding the strategy for your clients. And so what would you say you’re thinking about as we come. Coming into the end of Q4 and into 2024?

Denise: I think it’s about really bringing our story to life with our new brand and part of what we’re excited about is sparking participation and generating loyalty. We have a participation curve that really brings that to life.

And it’s I think we’re looking at what’s happening in the industry with the customer experience transformation. So loyalty is a critical component to that. And it’s really about how you move a customer along their relationship journey with the brand. And there’s so many capabilities that fading can bring to life in order to strengthen that relationship.

And so that’s really exciting for us. And we’ve been talking about this customer experience transformation, really being a catalyst to bring all of that together. Because what we’re seeing is customer, customer experience, user experience, employee experience is really critical and they’re all tied together.

So the employee or the customer can only have a great experience if your employees are really engaged and helping to deliver on that great experience. So I think we have a lot of capabilities to bring to bear across that entire journey, which is really exciting to do for Phaedon. 

Paula: Well, you’re both going to be very busy. I can certainly hear that coming through. It’s not to be taken lightly to have a new brand like Phaedon. And of course, we’d be linking to all of your social assets. And of course that we are Phaedon website. And again, just because we are an audio channel, I will say that Phaedon is spelled with the P HA E D O N. So again, I know Tom, you referenced the, the Greek origins of that name in the words light and giving. So just to help people understand, I suppose, the context of where you’re coming from. We’ll be certainly only too glad to continue sharing the story of what you guys are up to. 

So I think that’s all of the questions I had for you guys today Tom, have you any parting words of wisdom, anything else you wanted to mention for our audience before we wrap up?

Tom: Thank you again for the opportunity, Paula. We’re really we’re really proud to be on this with you. I, I do want to just, you know, one, one of the thought about 2024 is this is really about measurement and proving out that what you’re spending your money on is working. And so so that that’s going to be a continued focus for our clients and continue to focus for us. Prove out what we’re what we’re doing for them. 

And also, I’m going to take the opportunity on that note, then to thank Ashley Kimball, who heads up our marketing efforts. So when we talk about thought leadership, Ashley’s at the center in the forefront of that. And she’s helped us, helped us with here, helped us with this here today.

So I think you’d actually as well, we’ve got a, we’ve got a great team. I’m super proud of the people I work with super proud that we’re friends and we enjoy each other’s company during work and after work. And I think that I think that proves out to be results to drive results for our clients. 

Paula: I love that. Thank you so much for that, Tom. And Denise, any final thoughts, anything that else you wanted to mention before we wrap up?

Denise:  Yeah, I think that I’m just excited for the future of Phaedon. And as Tom had said, the people are at the core of this. I’m so proud of my team as well. The strategy, experience, research and insights team.

We have when you talk about thought leadership in the future and being able to innovate for clients, my team is at the at the heart of the trends research and really bringing that to life for our clients in a meaningful way and having our clients helping them to step outside the box and to drive their business forward. So I’m very excited for the future and the talent that we bring to bear.

Paula: Wonderful. Well, listen, I want to wish you every success. So, first of all, Denise Holt, Senior Vice President, Head of Strategy, Experience, Research, and Insights. And of course, Tom Madden its Executive Vice President and Managing Partner of Phaedon.

Thank you both so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

Denise: Thanks Paula.

Tom:  Thank you again. I’m very happy to be here.

Paula: The Australian Loyalty Association is proud to bring you the Asia Pacific Loyalty Awards to celebrate excellence, innovation, and best practice in the thriving loyalty industry active in the region. The awards have been split into 16 key categories and submissions will be judged by a panel of local experts. Early bird submissions close on the 5th of November, 2023. And the awards gala event will take place on the 14th of March, 2024 at the Glasshouse in Melbourne. 

Contact them at the australianloyaltyassociation.com for further information. 

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty. If you’d like us to send you the latest shows each week, simply sign up for the Let’s Talk Loyalty Newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com. And we’ll send our best episodes straight to your inbox. And don’t forget that you can follow Let’s Talk Loyalty on any of your favorite podcast platforms. And of course, we’d love for you to share your feedback and reviews. Thanks again for supporting the show.