#147: Flying Blue from Air France KLM Group - Loyalty & Partnerships Insights

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PAULA: Hello and welcome to episode 147 of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: Today, I’m delighted to welcome the Director of Partnerships at Air France-KLM Group, Gerben Sikkema, who joins me to share the story of Flying Blue, the loyalty program which supports both airlines.

PAULA: Gerben has a great insight on the power of loyalty points to drive commercial value for partners of the program, and explain some of the latest innovative ideas they are most proud of.

PAULA: He also talks through some insights on how Flying Blue has supported the airlines and their global partners in recent months.

PAULA: Welcome to the show.

GERBEN: Thank you.

GERBEN: Great to be here.

PAULA: Great, great.

PAULA: So you are director of partnerships, as I said in the introduction, at Air France-KLM.

PAULA: And that is, of course, leading the partnerships for the Flying Blue program.

PAULA: So it’s one I have admired over the years, and I had actually great fun going back and looking at the history of the companies.

PAULA: And so I’ll probably explain some of that to our listeners as we go through the conversation.

PAULA: But as you know, we always start our show asking about our favorite loyalty statistics, and you’ve prepared a fabulous one for me.

PAULA: So please tell me, Gerben, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?

GERBEN: Thanks, Paula, for the opportunity.

GERBEN: So I really didn’t want to pick a standard one.

GERBEN: I really wanted to be specific for the partnership business that I work in.

GERBEN: As you know, we, together with partnership, we develop or we put miles incentives on their products.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: Yeah.

GERBEN: And what we see is there that we actually, the partner sees incremental sales on those products.

GERBEN: And my favorite statistic is then the percentage of that incremental partner sales.

PAULA: Wow.

PAULA: Wow.

PAULA: And tell me, so, I mean, when partners come to you, Gerben, you’ve been doing this, I know, for I think nearly 11 years, in fact, across the group.

PAULA: And so you have extraordinary experience.

PAULA: So are our brands clear on what to expect when they come and talk to Flying Blue?

PAULA: Like, what are their expectations in terms of a sales uplift?

PAULA: Or what do you think they should be aiming for or expecting?

GERBEN: Yeah, that’s a good question.

GERBEN: So initially, sometimes it’s just about the brand exposure of Air France-KLM.

GERBEN: Other partners want to be associated with.

GERBEN: But I think in the course of our discussion, it almost always comes down to the currency, how to use our Flying Blue miles in their channels.

GERBEN: Because there it’s where our customers are.

GERBEN: And there it’s actually where the partner incremental sales, I just wanted to explain, it happens.

GERBEN: So what actually partners that we work with are seeing is that an uplift of 15 to 20% of their sales.

GERBEN: And that’s where we are aiming for together with them to create a winning situation.

PAULA: Yes, absolutely.

PAULA: That’s incredible because I think many of us have worked in marketing roles and with huge commercial expectations.

PAULA: And that’s obviously the purpose of our jobs and our roles.

PAULA: But I think loyalty is perhaps sometimes underappreciated in terms of having the power to uplift sales by 15 to 20%.

GERBEN: Exactly.

GERBEN: That’s also the journey that we’re going through with our clients is to see where we can achieve such numbers.

GERBEN: And how can we make the proposition to our customers as such that we can steer towards these figures.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And I know there’s a lot of dependencies.

PAULA: So again, I’m sure you have a huge team, actually.

PAULA: I think I saw, is it 18 people in total that are supporting the Flying Blue program overall, Gerben?

GERBEN: Yeah, so that’s the partnership department I’m leading.

GERBEN: But overall, I think with Flying Blue, we’re working with 50 people directly, 50 to 60 people.

GERBEN: But if you also account for the IT persons, it’s probably over 100 to 200 people working on it.

PAULA: My goodness, wow.

PAULA: And you sent me through a fabulous fact sheet as well, Gerben, which I’d love to be able to share with the listeners of the program, if it’s okay with you, as and when they’re listening, so that they can listen.

PAULA: But super impressive.

PAULA: So, for example, just for listeners, you have about 18 million members across five continents.

PAULA: And you mentioned 45% of Air France-KLM turnover comes from members of Flying Blue.

PAULA: So that’s extraordinary.

GERBEN: Yeah, that’s exactly true.

GERBEN: So, yeah, we’re also aiming, and we of course also always want to improve this figure.

GERBEN: But yeah, we’re aiming at nearly 50%, almost 50% of our revenue is generated through our members.

PAULA: My goodness, my goodness.

PAULA: It’s fantastic.

PAULA: And as I mentioned, I did have to go back through some of your history because what I’ve always loved about them, I probably know the KLM brand more if I’m honest, but I am aware obviously that Air France and KLM operate very much as independent flying brands in terms of the airlines and obviously share then the Flying Blue program.

PAULA: And I know you came together, was it in 2005 for the combined loyalty program following the merger of basically the two airlines a couple of years previously?

GERBEN: Yeah, I’m not sure what exact year we merged as loyalty programs, but of course it was soon after the merge of Air France and KLM.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: So I’ll tell you the history that I read on the website.

PAULA: So merged in 2004, Flying Blue then of course launched pretty quickly in 2005.

PAULA: And also I have to wish you a happy birthday.

PAULA: I think particularly the KLM predecessor, the airline, is turning 102 in a week’s time on the 7th of October.

GERBEN: Yes, thank you very much.

GERBEN: Yeah, so we’re the oldest airline brand in the world actually.

PAULA: That’s incredible.

PAULA: Wow.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: And also we should acknowledge that Air France is also pre-World War II.

PAULA: And both share the same birthday, which I think is an extraordinary coincidence.

GERBEN: Exactly.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: So would you mind just talking through, I suppose, the general business perspective in terms of, you know, what is Flying Blue intended to achieve?

PAULA: Because I know you kind of classify the business according to how it supports the airlines.

PAULA: And I know there’s obviously various airline brands, as we’ve talked about.

PAULA: But I know increasingly you’re focusing, I suppose, on the non-airline segment.

PAULA: So just to get a sense of exactly what Flying Blue is aiming to do and to be.

GERBEN: Yes, exactly.

GERBEN: So actually Flying Blue, we defined two purposes, sort of our double purpose, as we call it internally.

GERBEN: The first purpose is about the more classical part of a loyalty program of an airline to reward and incentivize our members.

GERBEN: Of course to enrich the travel experience and of course with one goal to make sure the retention is as high as possible.

PAULA: Sure.

GERBEN: But next to it, so our second purpose, and that’s really on the non-airline segment, as we call it.

GERBEN: So that’s the partnership business that I’m leading.

GERBEN: What we really want to do is engage our members, not only when they’re flying, but actually also in their daily lives.

GERBEN: And our loyalty currency fits right into place there because we can make sure that we enrich also the spend of our members in their daily lives.

GERBEN: So that means that we want to give them more opportunities to earn and to earn their miles, so to accrue and redeem them.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And it does seem that you have a very clear awareness, Gerben, again from just the background stuff that you sent me on the importance of, I think you said, burn drives earn, which I think is fabulous in terms of its clarity because I think a lot of people, particularly maybe non-loyalty people, maybe just senior executives of businesses, they really think that the earn obviously is the priority in order to drive obviously the burn.

PAULA: But I like the way that you have said, you know, it’s crystal clear and it’s almost like once you focus on rewarding the customer and closing that loop, then obviously it drives the overall earning, the excitement, I suppose, about earning.

GERBEN: Yes, exactly.

GERBEN: That’s exactly what we also said a couple of years ago that we said, okay, we have to focus more on the burn side of the business, not so much on the burn on the airline part because that’s very well arranged.

GERBEN: But also for people that don’t have access to those award seats out there.

GERBEN: Many members actually fly two or three times a year.

GERBEN: It takes them a little bit longer to redeem on a flight.

GERBEN: Sometimes it’s even not possible for them.

GERBEN: They don’t reach that amount of miles.

GERBEN: And that’s mainly for some of our explorers, our first tier members.

GERBEN: And therefore we said we also want to engage them better.

GERBEN: So we don’t want to stimulate the breakage that you have often in such programs.

GERBEN: What we want to make sure that all our members can use those miles.

GERBEN: And therefore also stimulate it to earn again.

GERBEN: So we think it’s very important that this burn is accelerated, especially for our entry tier levels members.

GERBEN: And that will also improve our program tremendously.

PAULA: Yeah, and keep your partner super happy, I can imagine.

GERBEN: Exactly.

GERBEN: So we’re also, and that’s a little bit different than our competitors are doing, is that we’re also talking directly with partners how they can stimulate our redemption.

GERBEN: So also we’re looking at how can you introduce paying with your miles in the checkouts of our partners?

PAULA: Yes, this is an extraordinary concept.

PAULA: And I’d love to know how advanced you are in that strategy.

PAULA: Is it live with some of your maybe key partners, or is it at the early stages of development?

PAULA: Because as a consumer, I have to say that’s like, it’s always a gorgeous experience when I am, you know, on the airline website.

PAULA: And I am lucky enough to have, you know, occasionally a reward ticket.

PAULA: But I haven’t actually had that experience on a partner website with any of the programs I’m engaged with.

GERBEN: So actually, the strategy is quite mature.

GERBEN: And our IDs are there for some time.

GERBEN: But of course, the implementation is where we have challenges.

GERBEN: Also with the COVID period, of course, that’s not yet even behind us.

GERBEN: That delays some of those discussions.

GERBEN: But we are in advanced stages with partners to discuss this.

GERBEN: And the problem here, we had some proof of concepts around the globe.

GERBEN: For instance, in our KLM Crown Lounge at Schiphol Airport, you could already pay with your miles in the restaurant, for instance.

GERBEN: So actually, technically, we are quite advanced on it, the challenge.

GERBEN: And I think some listeners will notice it’s about the scaling of this capability.

GERBEN: That’s where the challenge lays.

GERBEN: So that’s where we are moving forward in order to scale these kind of capabilities.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And that’s where I think true loyalty comes from, actually, as well, Gerben, because we all know that there’s a difference between the loyalty program and the currency that we all know and love, but actually those extraordinary experiences, which make my life easier, because I think with the best will in the world, going through an airport can be super tiring.

PAULA: So if you can make that even easier and even nicer, and again, tap into that moment of joy at the burn time, I think that’s fabulous and your customers must love it.

GERBEN: Yeah, it’s indeed some of the targets that we are setting, also to get a better emotional connection with our members.

GERBEN: I think that’s very much needed and appreciated by our members.

GERBEN: And yeah, I know from my own experience, I was actually just married and I went with my wife on a honeymoon.

GERBEN: Some years ago, we went for a honeymoon and there I could pay with my miles for that fantastic restaurant on the airport.

GERBEN: And we had quite some good food.

GERBEN: It was quite great for us to experience that.

GERBEN: It feels like a free lunch, right?

GERBEN: So it was quite amazing.

GERBEN: So that’s really the experience.

GERBEN: And not only for me, by the way, hopefully for a lot of members.

PAULA: Oh, totally.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And you know what I always feel as well, Gerben?

PAULA: You know, when I’ve had those lovely moments, it almost, you know, I feel like a hero, you know, with whoever, my friend or my husband or whoever is with me.

PAULA: You know, there’s a sense of just being the cool kid who’s just got this extraordinary opportunity.

PAULA: Figured it all out.

PAULA: So I’m always like super proud.

PAULA: And you’re absolutely right.

PAULA: That drives emotional loyalty way more than it’s not the transaction.

PAULA: It’s the fact that it’s easy.

PAULA: And as you said, it feels free.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: So, Gerben, I do love the absolute focus that you have on building, I suppose, more of a lifestyle program.

PAULA: Because again, with the best will in the world, I know plenty of people are not frequent flyers.

PAULA: So they probably only have the opportunity to maybe engage with Flying Blue across their maybe everyday lives.

PAULA: So I’d love just to get a sense of the lifestyle focus on what you’re building for consumers, because I think you mentioned you have over 100 partners at this point.

GERBEN: Yes, exactly.

GERBEN: So indeed, it’s a little bit related to the previous point that I mentioned.

GERBEN: But in addition to that, indeed, what we saw happening is that we actually are, we were giving all the benefits and creating these new benefits for our elite members, as we call them.

GERBEN: From Flying Blue, as of Silver membership, we call them elite.

GERBEN: Upper tiers, yes, our upper tiers member, and we saw that we were designing the program really focused on those tiers, because those are your biggest, your best members.

GERBEN: What actually is that what we want to do, as I tried to explain earlier, is also to engage the group below.

GERBEN: So where does that engagement happen?

GERBEN: It’s not always in the airline channels.

GERBEN: So it’s also beyond those airline channels, because you’re not in your daily life, not spending your time at the Air France-KLM touch points.

GERBEN: We really would like to, of course, that our customers can do that, but that’s not the case.

GERBEN: So that’s why we want to engage them in other channels, and there is where the partnership comes in.

GERBEN: That’s what we mean by moving from a more frequent flyer focus to a lifestyle loyalty focus.

GERBEN: And really engage our customers beyond the travel channels that we already serve.

PAULA: So the typical ones we would all be familiar with, and I know you have years of experience yourself on the co-branded cards, so that’s definitely an obvious one.

PAULA: Hotels and car hire again fit within the category, and again probably more relevant for those elite members that you mentioned.

PAULA: So what other categories are relevant and interesting for you?

PAULA: And I’m asking you that, Gerben, with the mindset actually that there might even be brands listening.

PAULA: And I guess most of your partnerships are probably across Europe, would that be fair to say?

GERBEN: Yes, actually also in the US.

GERBEN: We are developing quite some partnerships.

GERBEN: The focus that we are currently having is really on the retail side.

GERBEN: We already have a branding around it.

GERBEN: It’s called Shop For Miles.

GERBEN: Already our members can go to their local and also global brands and actually earn miles there.

GERBEN: It’s not yet burning, but it’s primarily focused on the earning.

GERBEN: So all the big brands in the Dutch market, also in the French market, where we focus on, but also outside in Europe, we have quite some good retailers linked to this setup.

GERBEN: And this is what we really want to focus on further.

GERBEN: But that’s really a specific example.

GERBEN: But we’re also looking at all the spent categories that our members are having.

GERBEN: So actually from insurance, to grocery stores, to telecom, all the spent categories that you can think of, we’re looking at new partner business.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And I love this strategy as well, Gerben, because again, I think over the years, the coalition brands have really led, especially maybe in markets, for example, like the UK, where it’s a coalition, it’s an independent company.

PAULA: But again, I’ve talked to a lot of people, for example, in the Australian loyalty market.

PAULA: And I’m guessing you’re seeing some of the incredible results coming out of Australia by following exactly this very powerful strategy where you become, as the airline, the anchor program, I suppose.

PAULA: And as you said, you’ve got the halo effect of the brand and Flying Blue and Air France and KLM.

PAULA: All of those brands add up to a very powerful currency, which does make it super easy, I guess, for a retailer, rather than having to go and create an entire loyalty program and a strategy, I suppose partnering with you makes life so much easier for them.

GERBEN: Exactly.

GERBEN: Also, the programs that you just mentioned are really our benchmark in terms of partnership business.

GERBEN: We looked at their models intensively.

GERBEN: We also had good discussions together.

PAULA: Nice.

PAULA: Okay.

GERBEN: So, indeed, that’s really something that we looked into.

PAULA: Well, I’m delighted to hear that, actually, because it’s such a competitive industry.

PAULA: But again, I suppose it’s a big world.

PAULA: We do, and I suppose part of the objective is this show is to be able to share those insights or to facilitate direct conversations because there is incredible performance coming out of different countries.

PAULA: So to be able to learn from them as to exactly how to achieve that shift into lifestyle, because actually, how long has that been your focus, Gerben?

PAULA: Because I’ve heard this mentioned only recently, but I’m guessing it’s been in development for quite some time for you.

GERBEN: Yeah, I think it’s a trend in the airline loyalty for some time, maybe for maybe a year, that we came across also other programs looking into it.

GERBEN: We are looking in it for years.

PAULA: Okay.

GERBEN: And we’re developing all kinds of capabilities around it.

GERBEN: And so I think for the last two years, we were actually, we had it validated internally.

GERBEN: So for us now, the challenge is also to roll out and to develop all these capabilities that enable the earn and the burn in the daily life of our consumers.

GERBEN: And for us, what’s really missing in the Flying Blue part, so not in the airline part, because there we are covered well, but it’s the mobile solution.

GERBEN: Because of course, the mobile is of course already very much in the daily lives of our members.

GERBEN: And typically in the loyalty business, in the airline loyalty business, the link between loyalty and payment is very big.

GERBEN: Of course, we already have it with our corporate credit cards.

GERBEN: Sure.

GERBEN: And we also want to expand this to a mobile solution and enabling our members also to spend their miles anywhere.

GERBEN: So this is something that will come up.

GERBEN: And that is quite some internal discussion.

GERBEN: Maybe some listeners recognize these processes, but also to find the right suppliers for that.

GERBEN: So that’s something that needs a lot of preparation.

GERBEN: So first you need your strategy and then you need to actually execute it, which is the challenge we are at at the moment.

PAULA: These things never happen quickly.

PAULA: And I think actually it’s almost like, because particularly in our airline industry that we love so much, the systems have been around for so many years that actually there’s a lot of legacy architecture.

PAULA: So to get the latest technology, to work with the original technology as it’s evolving over its lifetime.

PAULA: So I very much hear you.

PAULA: I’ve been on your side as well.

PAULA: So well done.

GERBEN: No, and actually what’s interesting is that before this period, this strategy could only have…

GERBEN: I think what you say is quite right.

GERBEN: You could only have this strategy if the basis is right.

GERBEN: So before we had this strategy, we actually worked on our renewed Flying Blue program.

GERBEN: We have it now for some time.

GERBEN: Which also involved creating a new backend system.

GERBEN: The backend system was fully renewed.

GERBEN: Because we knew that we had to be ready for these kind of additional developments.

GERBEN: And that also enables us now to scale in a much faster way.

GERBEN: Okay.

PAULA: The next thing I wanted to ask you about, Gerben, was as we’re hopefully coming out of the other side of COVID, I just wanted to get a sense of your experience.

PAULA: Again, you’ve been with the group for a long time, thankfully before the pandemic.

PAULA: So how would you say the pandemic has changed either consumer behavior or your own thinking?

PAULA: Or how has it been for you guys going through?

PAULA: Because we all know that the airline business has probably had the biggest immediate commercial impact, let’s say.

PAULA: But I think loyalty programs have been quite different from their airline owners actually in terms of how they’ve evolved.

PAULA: So I’d love just a couple of insights from your side on that.

GERBEN: Yeah, it’s a good point, Paula.

GERBEN: So indeed, everybody knows how tough, or not sure everybody knows how tough, but in fact it was the biggest clear for everybody for the airline.

GERBEN: Of course, we’re still not there, but we’re seeing some great recovery figures.

GERBEN: For actually the loyalty program and the commercial business that I’m in, we showed that we had a lot of resilience.

GERBEN: So the results actually, we had impact, but not as much as we expected actually, and of course compared to the airline.

GERBEN: And that has to do with, of course, we already with our co-brands and other business is not always directly related to travel.

GERBEN: And our hotel partners, some of them actually performed quite well during the pandemic, also people staying in their own country.

GERBEN: So actually the impact was not as big as we saw for the airlines.

GERBEN: So and interesting enough, also the recovery is much faster.

PAULA: Oh wow, okay.

GERBEN: So some of the partners are co-brand cards, some of them are already back to 2019 levels again for the past months.

GERBEN: So what you see is that actually this business is coming back soon.

PAULA: Wow, I love that, Gerben, because I’ve often said on this show that loyalty is countercyclical and it’s when we face, you know, whether it’s an economic crisis or a health crisis like we’re facing now, I think loyalty becomes so much better respected.

PAULA: And I think you’ve used exactly the word, it’s because of the resilience of the program, of the members, of the proposition.

PAULA: So, you know, it really does support us when we need it most.

PAULA: And I don’t think we get that recognition when there isn’t a crisis almost.

GERBEN: No, I think it showed, I think in the US, it was a little bit more clear that the loyalty programs there took a more prominent step also in funding some of the loans.

GERBEN: And that was, I think, in Europe, a little bit less clear.

GERBEN: But yeah, so we also see it internally that we are becoming now seen as an important business.

GERBEN: And I think that’s also nice for our department.

PAULA: So the other big section, as you know, I’m very passionate about innovation.

PAULA: So I’d love to get a sense of some of the other concepts that you’re working on.

PAULA: You’ve already mentioned a couple.

PAULA: So I really love the Earn and Burn in checkout with your partners.

PAULA: I think that’s, as we’ve said, technically challenging, but definitely the way of the future and definitely creates an extraordinary moment of joy.

PAULA: You also mentioned Shop for Miles, which I know our friends in Collinson support you on.

PAULA: So that’s an extraordinary one where people have been shopping increasingly online throughout the pandemic.

PAULA: So to be able to earn miles for things they were going to do anyway, I always loved that proposition.

PAULA: So I feel like actually, I don’t know whether it’s, Europe felt a little bit maybe slower than the US to realize the power of that proposition, but have you had that in place for a while or is it one of your newer innovations?

GERBEN: The shop for miles was there for quite some time.

GERBEN: And yeah, so we see that actually, also during the pandemic, we saw quite some growth on this segment.

GERBEN: But we still want to develop it much more because it’s still a great proposition for our members.

GERBEN: And that’s actually what we’re doing there.

GERBEN: And it’s really, we looked also at the setup of our current websites.

GERBEN: And we also came to the conclusion that we also focus more on these kind of offers to improve the visibility of those offers for our members.

GERBEN: And we really want to make sure that our websites and later on our mobile app is really a place where our members go if they want to earn and bear miles.

GERBEN: This method fits perfectly in that objective.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: And I was just remembering as well, Gerben, that it was, I’m going to say, two years ago now and not part of Flying Blue, but I did make just a one-off booking on KLM.

PAULA: I was traveling on a sector which I wouldn’t normally be traveling, but I was super impressed actually because my confirmation, my ticket came through on WhatsApp.

PAULA: And that absolutely blew me away.

PAULA: And then I was invited to check in on WhatsApp.

PAULA: Then the boarding pass came through.

PAULA: And again, 2019.

PAULA: And even to this day, it’s not a level of innovation that I see in any other airline.

PAULA: So I think particularly KLM seems to have that mindset of innovation.

GERBEN: It’s not my department where this innovation took place, but it actually started when the ash clouds in Iceland, I can’t pronounce the volcano name, by the way.

GERBEN: But it started there when I think a lot of traffic, a lot of flights were grounded.

GERBEN: And actually what we saw there is that our members and our customers actually are present on social media.

GERBEN: And yeah, so we actually connected with our members through those channels, instead of the typical big call centers where you have to wait for half an hour before you can go through.

GERBEN: So we saw it as an opportunity rather than, of course it was a big challenge, by the way, but we also saw it as an opportunity to arrange that.

GERBEN: And in that light, we’re proud at our digital department that makes this happen.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: And again, as we said, I know it’s not in the Flying Blue loyalty program, but it is within the Air France-KLM overall loyalty, building that emotional side.

PAULA: So definitely kudos to your colleagues.

PAULA: So that was amazing.

PAULA: So my final question then is about other kind of innovations that you’re working on for Flying Blue, Gerben.

PAULA: Anything you can share.

PAULA: You mentioned, for example, the increasing importance between connecting loyalty with payments.

PAULA: And I definitely think that’s something, again, that consumers want.

PAULA: So any other things that you’re thinking about as new ideas that you think customers are looking for?

GERBEN: So what we see happening, and I think the US is always a step ahead of Europe, but what we want to really learn from them is spending on the card linked offer and the account linked offer model, which really enables our members to register a payment card.

GERBEN: It can be our co-branded, it can also be their own credit card without being co-branded, which makes them eligible for earning miles on merchants that are linked to this program.

PAULA: Yeah, that’s my favorite proposition, actually.

PAULA: In fact, I’m going to say, I came across it in, I’d say, 2016 as a concept.

PAULA: And, sorry, which terminology are you using to describe that one when it’s not a co-branded card?

PAULA: Is that an account linked offer?

PAULA: That’s card linked.

GERBEN: For card linked, that’s the most easy way.

GERBEN: So you register your cards.

GERBEN: And actually it appears as an identification at the merchant side, at the retailer or the partner.

GERBEN: And then we know actually this customer made the offer or went for the offer that’s out there.

GERBEN: And then a commission model can work.

GERBEN: And there we can fund these miles from.

GERBEN: That enables the customers to earn miles by just registering their cart for free and make them available for many nice offers.

GERBEN: And that can enrich your co-brand.

GERBEN: That’s one.

GERBEN: It’s not a conflicting model at all.

GERBEN: It’s actually reaching.

GERBEN: But it can also engage the customers that are not looking for a co-branded cart.

GERBEN: And that’s also a substantial group.

GERBEN: So we really want to make sure that we utilize our member segments, of course, but also offer these products for non-elites, as we call it.

GERBEN: So our entry tiers.

GERBEN: So actually we broaden our visibility and our exposure on miles earning.

PAULA: And am I right, Gerben, then, if I do have a co-brand cart, for example, and I do register it, and I know that’s a one-off registration.

PAULA: So again, that’s a super easy customer journey.

PAULA: Am I right, then, that as a consumer, I get to double dip, essentially, if I get miles from the cart and from the merchant?

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Lovely.

PAULA: Lovely.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: We don’t have cart linked offers in where I live.

PAULA: So if you could come over here and help them figure that out, I definitely am excited about that one.

PAULA: And actually, I will also mention, in case other listeners haven’t come across, but there’s almost an implicit benefit on the sustainability side because customers certainly in the convenience industry that sign up for cart linked offers and using their payment card as the identifier, they can then get digital receipts.

PAULA: And that has become something that wasn’t a primary objective, but it really was something that actually consumers really said, oh, I really like that we’re not printing till receipts for my groceries, because most people really don’t want those, you know, that kind of paper.

PAULA: And I know for you guys, the whole sustainability piece is super important as well.

PAULA: And I think that comes through when people do register their payment card.

GERBEN: Sustainability actually is on top of the agenda, both of the airlines and of the Flying Blue program.

GERBEN: Of course, we follow all initiatives of our airlines in making sure that we give the best incentives to sustainable products as good as we can.

GERBEN: Of course, we still have the leading position on the Dow Jones Sustainability Index.

GERBEN: So for us it’s really important.

GERBEN: And also in our partnership business, we really look of course at partners that are really sustainable.

GERBEN: So we look at are they focusing on that?

GERBEN: And of course, we also looking within the partnerships.

GERBEN: How can we stimulate the greener products that they have?

GERBEN: For instance, electric cars in case of car rentals.

GERBEN: So we’re really looking for how to give those, give a better incentive to sustainable products.

PAULA: I love that, actually, Gerben, because again, I don’t think it gets the recognition with consumers.

PAULA: We’re all so busy and we can see the big initiatives.

PAULA: Let’s say that the airline is, of course, focusing on being the best sustainable approach, but then to directly incentivize people to get an electric car.

PAULA: I think that’s very powerful.

PAULA: I hadn’t seen that done anywhere else so far.

GERBEN: Again, the difficulty is not the ID.

GERBEN: It’s more the implementation of that, because you work with, of course, partners.

GERBEN: It has to be scaled up.

GERBEN: It has to be their own partner.

GERBEN: It needs to be developed.

GERBEN: That’s the phase we’re in currently.

GERBEN: In the future, you will see a lot of new initiatives on donations, also that you can actually pay with your miles for planting trees, for instance.

GERBEN: That kind of new products we are constantly looking at and eager to develop.

PAULA: Okay, wonderful.

PAULA: Well, you’re definitely not alone, Gerben.

PAULA: I know there’s plenty of people probably listening that might have other ideas for you.

PAULA: Definitely good to know that you’re open to those kind of things.

PAULA: I think that’s all of the questions I had from my side, Gerben.

PAULA: As I said, I’m a huge fan of the Flying Blue program.

PAULA: Clearly, 18 million other people are as well.

PAULA: But what I particularly like is your focus on, you know, as I said, I think at the very beginning, you know, the burned, you know, drives the urn.

PAULA: So this very clear focus on the moment of joy for the member and making it at a time when it really makes a big impact, like you mentioned, the restaurants and everything.

PAULA: So I think it’s extraordinary work you’re doing.

PAULA: So I know you’re on LinkedIn, Gerben.

PAULA: I’ll obviously do a link to your profile on the show notes.

PAULA: Are you happy for people to reach out to you for any conversations or any ideas they may have, if that’s appropriate?

GERBEN: Of course.

GERBEN: Feel free to contact me.

GERBEN: Also, of course, potential partners.

GERBEN: So I’m open for also for suggestions on Flying Blue and on partnership business particularly.

GERBEN: So, of course, we’re happy to.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: Well, as my listeners know, Gerben, I got into loyalty in the exact same way as you.

PAULA: So I came in to negotiate partnerships for a Telco loyalty program.

PAULA: So it’s very close to my heart.

PAULA: So I’m a huge fan of what you’re doing.

PAULA: So listen, it’s been a fabulous conversation.

PAULA: I really do hope we can stay in touch and maybe record again on maybe a regular basis every year just to see what you’re doing.

PAULA: So from my side, I just want to say thank you so much to Gerben Sikkema, Director of Partnerships, Air France-KLM, from everyone at Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.

PAULA: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.

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