#646: Bridging Academia and Industry: Exploring the Future of Loyalty with Darron Kirkley

PAULA: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

PAULA: Today’s episode is part of the Wiser Loyalty series.

PAULA: And is hosted by Aaron Dauphinee, Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer of the Wise Marketer Group.

PAULA: The Wise Marketer Group is a media, education and advisory services company, providing resources for loyalty marketeers through the Wise Marketer Digital Publication and the Loyalty Academy program that offers the Certified Loyalty Marketing Professional or CLMP designation.

PAULA: I hope you enjoyed this episode brought to you by Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV in partnership with the Wise Marketer Group.

AARON: Welcome everyone to another edition of the Wiser Loyalty podcast series, which is brought to you in partnership with Let’s Talk Loyalty and the Wise Marketer.

AARON: Throughout 2024, Wise Marketer Group CEOs Bill Hanifin and myself, Aaron Dauphinee, the CMO at WMG, we shared our insights on loyalty constructs and topics inspired by one of the core curriculum courses in the Loyalty Academy Certified Loyalty Marketing Professional Curriculum.

AARON: In 2025, we are shifting from this academic focus to seek out insights from practitioners of the trade such as our CLMPs and those who are leading from the C-suite.

AARON: Twice a month, we will bring you an interview with a CLMP or C-level executive who has transformed strategy into practical application and generated strong business results in customer loyalty as a result.

AARON: Today, we’re speaking with a relatively recent CLMP graduate and an astute loyalty academic, Darron Kirkley from the University of South Carolina.

AARON: Darron is one of less than a handful of instructors who have a class that is dedicated fully to the discipline of loyalty.

AARON: Interestingly as well, this course is taught through USC’s College of Hospitality, Retail and Sports Management.

AARON: So we’ll flavor our conversation today with Darron’s expertise in the hospitality sector.

AARON: Having spent time with Darron, I know there’s a line in his bio at the USC website that rings true for me, which is that he is overtly quote, interested in the business of Loyalty and the benefits of guest Loyalty from the consumer and business standpoints.

AARON: Welcome Darron.

DARRON: Thanks for having me.

AARON: Great.

AARON: We are glad you’re here.

AARON: Let’s perhaps start on the heels of that last quote.

AARON: I find it fascinating.

AARON: You and I met last year in London at the CLP workshop training, and we spoke extensively about your focus on the Loyalty craft.

AARON: You also have vast experience in the hospitality sector.

AARON: How does Loyalty play differently in hospitality versus other sectors and what are the key drivers in your opinion?

DARRON: Yeah, I think in the whole mindset we came up with this, having this as a course and specifically, like you said, within our college strictly on hospitality, it’s the driver and the building force behind it.

DARRON: A lot of times is that guest experience, and that’s normally where it begins, and that’s where the thing that pulls the guest in to begin with and the loyalty builds from that.

DARRON: They’re having that experience at the restaurant, at the hotel, at the attraction, whatever it may be.

DARRON: And then we’ve just seen it over the years just infiltrate throughout our entire industry, right?

DARRON: So that’s one thing that we talk about from day one, basically, is every single, almost not every, but the vast majority of establishments within this particular sector have some kind of loyalty program, right?

DARRON: In some way, shape or form.

DARRON: They all look a little different, which gives us plenty to talk about and discuss, and then how they build upon that, what goes into that factor.

DARRON: But basically, anywhere you go from luxury to quick service restaurants have something, right?

DARRON: So that’s sort of where the premise came for it being so important, particularly within that industry.

AARON: Let’s pick up on that a little bit more.

AARON: The traditional programmatic loyalty or small loyalty, if you will, is quite profuse through this sector, as you said.

AARON: So do you see brands starting to differentiate themselves by using loyalty or is it still mostly more of the same, same types of experiences for customers?

AARON: And if you do, how are brands changing these things up, in your opinion?

DARRON: Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of the traditional, like you said, but I think there is a lot of innovation and change, and especially as tier, you know, even the tiered structure and all those kind of things with different brands.

DARRON: Some see that work very well for them and some see don’t, right?

DARRON: And so you’ve seen that change from having the tier, and then now you’re seeing more and more brands go to money based spend and really looking at revenue generated and what goes into that, because we know that there are people out there who are going to spend as little as possible and try to get as much as possible, right?

DARRON: So I mean, we definitely have seen some of that, and I think that’s still the best part for the students is really seeing which brands have changed and where the difference is and which ones are really being innovative and changing that narrative of what they offer in the perks and the incentives and all that kind of stuff, right?

DARRON: I mean, you know, and I know when this first began forever, not forever, a million years ago, but you know, when this all first started, it was like, sign up for this loyalty program, you get free Wi-Fi at a hotel, right?

DARRON: And it’s like, now if you go to a hotel and you don’t have free Wi-Fi, like, what are we doing?

DARRON: You know, so as the industry continues to evolve and change and as benefits and things that just become standard change, you know, yeah, now they’re making you sign up for the loyalty program in order to get it.

DARRON: But, you know, it used to be you had to have a certain tier to get it for free, right?

DARRON: So, so we’ve definitely talked about that and how it changes.

DARRON: It’s unique for these students too, because they’re coming in at such a young age.

DARRON: I mean, I’ve got 18 to 22-ish year olds, right, that are in there.

DARRON: So, and it’s not nothing, it’s not something that they’ve necessarily thought about as a career path, right, and somewhere to go and actually build up.

DARRON: And, you know, now that all these, all these hospitality firms have true departments, you know, multiple employees dedicated to it, it sort of gives them a path forward.

AARON: That’s great.

AARON: Let’s continue on that line of thinking.

AARON: So, when you take your students through your curriculum, you know, what are some of the concepts or loyalty constructs that they just soak up readily and are there some that they struggle with?

AARON: I’m kind of thinking of finance, potentially tech, AI.

AARON: And why do you think that may be that they’re struggling?

AARON: Because you did mention that they’re quite junior.

DARRON: Yeah, no, I mean, I think there are definitely some topics that are just more fun and thrilling than others, right?

DARRON: And it’s just the nature of the beast with anything.

DARRON: So, of course, even though they find the psychology behind it interesting, that’s still difficult for them, right?

DARRON: Because there’s so many different concepts within it.

DARRON: And this is such a unique course that we really haven’t had, per se, within our department, you know?

DARRON: So, I think it’s been interesting.

DARRON: AI has become, it’s a huge topic within our college as a whole, and innovation and looking at how brands are engaging with that and what they’re doing.

DARRON: And so, we’ve talked about that in class and looked at certain companies that are doing a good job, you know, and looking at scenarios of just, you know, just even some of the basic chatbots and all of that, all the way up to how is that really going to change the narrative of loyalty in the future, you know?

DARRON: And so, like you said, finance is probably not their favorite portion, but as I tell them, they only get a sliver of that in my class, whereas we have Hospitality Finance as a whole course.

DARRON: So they can’t be too mad with me about that.

DARRON: So, but yeah.

AARON: Very good.

AARON: Yeah, let’s, yeah, I’m not surprised.

AARON: It’s kind of the true, it’s interesting about the psychology being a little more challenging because that’s the premise of what we, you know, build in the loyalty discipline.

AARON: Very interesting.

AARON: You talked about AI, you know, you’ve got such a great form for shaping the minds of this next generation of loyalty marketers.

AARON: And we are at a tipping point, really, when it comes to AI increasingly being infused into what we do.

AARON: So how do you actually frame that conversation up for your students?

AARON: Or like, just how important will AI be on impacting the loyalty discipline?

DARRON: You know, we talk about it a lot.

DARRON: And, you know, we don’t, you know, like you said, we’re sort of at that tipping point.

DARRON: So we’re sort of trying to figure out exactly what role it will play.

DARRON: But we know it’s here, we know it’s not going anywhere.

DARRON: We know it’s only going to continue.

DARRON: And what we know today is going to be way different than six months from now, right?

DARRON: We can only predict what it will be.

DARRON: So that is one of the things that I say all along up front.

DARRON: There are certain assignments in class.

DARRON: I’m like, do not use AI, do not use the outside source because I really want to get their thought process going.

DARRON: So it’s not in a way that I’m trying to shut that down in any way of the use of AI.

DARRON: But then there are other assignments that it’s like, okay, I don’t care exactly what tools or resources you have, you need to learn how to use those and better yourself with them as well.

DARRON: So we do assignments and in-class activities and test all that both ways.

DARRON: Because I do think they’ve got to learn how to embrace it and use it to the best of their ability.

DARRON: But at the same time, there are certain things I want to truly hear their thoughts.

DARRON: It’s a good balancing act.

DARRON: I think that’s where industry is as a whole, of where does this fit into the overall thing and the overall paradigm of where it goes.

AARON: Yeah, I think that we’re still in the early days and the early days are quickly moving.

AARON: As you said, what is now in six months will be something very different.

AARON: But as we think about loyalty as an industry, one of the terms where we’re seeing rise up in the industry is this concept of a big L loyalty, which looks beyond the programatics and starts to consider the customer experience and moments of interaction as well as those that have impact on the brand loyalty.

AARON: How do you frame up the conversation in your classroom for this next gen of loyalty marketers?

DARRON: Yeah, we have lots of conversation about that guest experience, because of course, I say guest instead of customer all the time.

DARRON: We talk about that impact it has and those true, hospitality is built on those moments of truth.

DARRON: That’s one of the things I teach in my intro class with the freshman first day basically is how much of the human side and the human aspect this has.

DARRON: Then that becomes just part of that discussion in the loyalty class later on.

DARRON: It’s like remember back when we first began this whole journey in the hospitality scope, how important that consumer plays and how much that interaction really does matter.

DARRON: That guest interaction, you can make or break a guest simply from that one moment of truth.

DARRON: We’ve definitely have talked about later on about how, and you’ve seen this with plenty of brands, and how do they differentiate themselves from just being transactional in nature to really creating those touch points, and those moments, and those things that keep the customer coming back and willing to spend money with that brand.

DARRON: You know I’ve talked with you about several brands that I’ve done experiences with, and of course you build that affinity with them, because now it’s sort of like in part of your culture, and sort of part of what you’ve done, because they’ve created that emotional attachment, right?

DARRON: And it goes so much further beyond that transactional.

AARON: So yeah, I know we spoke about that, a couple of the hotel brands.

AARON: Do you have any particular example that is top of mind for you, that resonated for you individually?

DARRON: Yeah, yeah, no, I’ve done, and you know that, I’ve done several of the experiences overall with Hilton and with their program of Hilton Honors.

DARRON: Actually, I just did another one last week down in Florida, the LPGA Championship or the LPGA Tournament that was down there.

DARRON: And again, those experiences, as much as I love them, I do, don’t get me wrong.

DARRON: And that’s one thing, I had some guest speakers this semester, you know, in class and they were talking about, there are a lot of brands that have experiences, right?

DARRON: But how do you really tailor and curate that experience where it does keep that customer coming back and makes them feel part of it?

DARRON: Those real life examples, I think, are things that I can show the kids now in the class that really sort of changes that conversation and changes that driver, right?

DARRON: Because I think so many, even though all these companies, like I said, have experiences and have similar programs where you can, you know, redeem points or auction off points or whatever it may be, for whatever reason, I still don’t know if that’s hit with the general society of consumers, right?

DARRON: And I’m not bashing any brand or any person, right?

DARRON: I just don’t know if consumers have really caught on to that.

DARRON: I think there still is that mindset that at the end of the day, if I earn hotel points, I get free hotel nights and that’s just what you do, right?

DARRON: And so when we had those conversations in class and I can really show them, like, hey, here’s pictures and videos of where I didn’t get a free hotel night, right?

DARRON: Like, that’s not my end goal, you know?

DARRON: So I think then that creates a real life scenario for them.

DARRON: But then it also gives us part of those opportunities that students traditionally, and I don’t even think that we traditionally talk about, you know, as marketers within the industry of those career paths that are out there, right?

DARRON: Somebody’s curating these experiences.

DARRON: Somebody’s forming those partnerships.

DARRON: Somebody’s really working behind those scenes to get XYZ Hospitality firm partnered up with, you know, 123 Entertainment Company to curate those, you know, once in a lifetime, you know, not to use trite terminology, but truthfully, those that everybody can’t really do and participate in.

DARRON: And so I think that has been super beneficial for the students to be able to see it, you know?

AARON: Yeah, that’s an interesting point that, you know, as you showcase these differentiators that brands are doing to enhance the program, you’re actually laying out a, oh, if I want to go do that as well, too, and create these, that could be a job for me.

AARON: That is truly the next gen of Loyalty Marketers up and coming.

AARON: Two last questions here and then we’ll tidy up.

AARON: So this one’s kind of related actually to what you just spoke about.

AARON: We’ve heard whispers lately that Loyalty is a dated topic and that maybe it’s stuck.

AARON: In fact, I recently was just at a conference last week which had a debate on if it’s stuck or unstuck.

AARON: And so where do you think we’re at as an industry and what’s important for Loyalty at this point?

DARRON: Yeah, no, I think we’re definitely, I don’t think we’re stuck.

DARRON: I do think we’re at an interesting place of where does it go now and how do you keep that engagement and keep people as part of your brand and keep them engaging being your advocate for you?

DARRON: And then how do you keep them?

DARRON: Obviously, at the end of the day, we want them to spend money, right?

DARRON: So how do we do that?

DARRON: How do we maximize that?

DARRON: I don’t think it’s stuck.

DARRON: I think there’s definitely, with many brands, there’s some, how do we look at this and transform it going future, forward?

DARRON: One that I talk about in class a good bit, I think did a very unique and I think they took advantage of where life was going, where it was changing was American Airlines, right?

DARRON: And so now they’re no longer, they’ve changed their loyalty structure two-ish years ago, maybe three, where it’s no longer just based on flying with them.

DARRON: You can never fly with them.

DARRON: But if you spend money within their ecosystem, whether it be on their co-brand credit card, whether it be on their shopping portal, whether it be a plethora of other programs they have, you can still earn that status, right?

DARRON: And so I think they really did differentiate some of that.

DARRON: Hey, it’s not just about being in our planes, it’s about being associated with our brand, right?

DARRON: And we’re going to reward those people who interact with us in some way, shape or form, right?

DARRON: And I think that was a unique sort of, I mean, yes, there’s always been, you know, do this car rental, you get extra hotel.

DARRON: There’s that has been there, but to actually that’s how your status can now be earned.

DARRON: And that’s truly how we’re going to reward you.

DARRON: And you can never fly with them and get top tier status just from interacting and spending with other partners, which I think is a very forward thinking kind of concept, you know.

AARON: Yeah, the ecosystem, we’re hearing lots about that more and more as an ultimate play we used to call a form of a coalition.

AARON: I think it’s terminology, but it’s got some different mechanics to it and with the different partnerships that are in place for that ecosystem.

AARON: But last question for you to wrap up.

AARON: So we ask this of all the people that we’re interviewing in this 2025 year of the Wiser Loyalty Series.

AARON: So can you share one example from either your personal or professional life that was really like an epiphany moment, one where you thought, wow, this is why customer loyalty really works?

DARRON: Oh, that’s a good one.

DARRON: I mean, there’s been several for sure.

DARRON: And again, I’m not trying to go back just to that Hilton story, but it was probably that very first.

DARRON: We’re probably going back seven or eight years ago that went to.

DARRON: It was a redeem go to a concert with them, but it was a private concert that was in Nashville only for Hilton Honors members.

DARRON: And it was 25,000 points.

DARRON: I mean, nothing in the grand scheme of things, right?

AARON: Yeah, it was quite low actually.

DARRON: Yeah, it was very low.

DARRON: And so, but again, we’ve had that conversation in class, right?

DARRON: Like you’ve got to also, if you’re running those platforms and thinking about that, you’ve got to have a barrier of access.

DARRON: Now you don’t eliminate that barrier of access, right?

DARRON: So you want to have the highest tier person, but you also want that lower tier person that may not have, you know, you want that 20-year-old, 25-year-old who doesn’t have a million points to have access to it, right?

DARRON: Because if they don’t ever see it’s attainable, they’re never going to engage, right?

DARRON: And so that’s one thing I try to talk to these students about in class of like, hey, start now, try to figure this out, you know?

DARRON: And it really has become something unique for that because I had a student literally email me last week and she was like, this class opened up my eyes to so much, I just got my first flight, right?

DARRON: And so I was like, you know, she was great in class and understood the whole business of it.

DARRON: But now that they can see the opportunities that are out there for them, from the consumer and from the, you know, employment aspect, it’s been really, really, you know, good for me to see that.

DARRON: And then obviously, when we’ve now made this a course where I can actually teach this to all these future hope to be loyalty marketers, you know, it’ll be a great turning point there, too.

AARON: Yeah, I know.

AARON: Well, I mean, you know, we’re biased, obviously, with the Lulti Academy that we do think that there’s a place for practitioner-based education and now also academic coming together to really foster up a good, strong set of main disciplines for Lulti as an industry.

AARON: So, Darron, I want to thank you for joining us.

AARON: I really appreciate your thoughts and insights and we’re looking forward to hearing from you more in the future.

DARRON: All right.

DARRON: Sounds good.

DARRON: Thank you again.

AARON: Take care.

AARON: Be well.

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