Flying Blue Loyalty Program Going from Strength to Strength (Archive Episode) (#689)

Ben: We’re not here to say you need to fly more.

Ben: We’re saying when you do need to fly, fly Air France Canada.

Ben: You can earn status 100% if you want by purchasing SAF, if you don’t have money where our mouth is.

Paula: That’s really good.

Paula: And the sustainable piece, as you said, I know there’s a risk of greenwashing and people can be a little bit cynical, but we have to start, we have to do our best.

Ben: We were able to raise 1.5 billion euros in quasi-equity from Apollo, which is a private equity firm, which highlights the value that the private equity world sees in loyalty programs in particular hours.

Ben: We’re also going to be launching an application, our own app.

Ben: It will be engineered 100% towards earning miles, both online and offline.

Ben: So not connected to the actual airline environment, so separate from the Air France and KLM apps, but specifically on the earning miles, which really allows customers to kind of find merchants in their local environment that will allow them to earn more miles every day.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights for loyalty marketing specialists around the world.

Paula: Hello, and welcome to our latest episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Paula: I can’t believe it’s already been a year since we met with Ben Lipsey, Senior Vice President of Customer Loyalty and President of Flying Blue, the loyalty program of Air France, KLM, and Transavia.

Paula: Flying Blue now has over 22 million members of its program.

Paula: And Ben joins us today to share some new propositions and pricing that they’ve launched for members, as well as the creation of a separate new legal structure for the entire program, and also their plans to launch subscription propositions this year for their members.

Paula: I hope you enjoy the latest loyalty insights from Ben Lipsey and Flying Blue.

Paula: So, Ben Lipsey, welcome back to Let’s Talk Loyalty and welcome to Loyalty TV.

Ben: Thank you so much for having me.

Paula: Great.

Paula: I can’t believe 12 months.

Paula: It has absolutely flown by since you’ve been on the show with us before.

Ben: Yeah, time flies, especially in our industry.

Paula: Honestly, honestly, brilliant.

Paula: Listen, there’s loads going on with Flying Blue.

Paula: It’s incredibly impressive.

Paula: I know you’ve reached some fabulous new numbers, which you’re going to talk a little bit about today.

Paula: Also had some very interesting structural changes, lots of new propositions and plenty going on in terms of the overall business globally, not just in Europe.

Paula: So let’s kick off first and foremost, as you know, we always love to get inside the minds of our guests and get a sense of your favorite loyalty program.

Paula: So Ben Lipsey, please do share with our audience as we come into 2024.

Paula: What’s your current favorite loyalty program, please?

Ben: This one, I’ve given some thought and actually, my favorite loyalty program at the moment is built.

Ben: I think you’ve had them on the show before, but it’s a program based out of the US where you earn points for paying rent.

Ben: And of course, they have a co-brand credit card as well.

Ben: Really unique startup, really unique idea.

Ben: And of course, we’re partners with them and we really see some really innovative stuff that we would like to do with them.

Ben: And we’re quite happy with this partnership.

Ben: And for me, it’s just really cool.

Paula: Yeah, absolutely.

Paula: I agree.

Paula: And one of the reasons I started this show is to find cool new stuff.

Paula: And BILT is exactly that.

Paula: So big shout out to the guys there.

Paula: So and for anyone who’s not familiar with it, it’s BILT, which is B-I-L-T, not B-U-I-L-T, as we might assume.

Paula: We’ll make sure to link to that for the show notes.

Paula: So we probably need to get Dave back on as well at some point.

Paula: But what I always find amusing, Ben, is, you know, when anyone talks to BILT, like, you know, the guys have been here, you know, I’ve seen them down in Brazil recently as well.

Paula: Everybody’s like, please come to my country, you know?

Paula: And for me, I am paying rent.

Paula: So why am I not getting, you know, some kind of good payback on that?

Paula: So a high quality problem.

Ben: And then you can use those ways to change the plan too.

Ben: Absolutely.

Paula: Totally, totally.

Paula: And you’ll be very impressed with me, Ben.

Paula: I did sign up today.

Paula: I know you have a partnership with ALL as well, in terms of the mutually beneficial where, you know, fly or stay.

Paula: And there’s points and miles on both sides.

Paula: So I did finally connect those two today.

Paula: So fully fledged member of Flying Blue with ALL.

Paula: So there we go.

Paula: So listen, I think the most…

Ben: Thank you very much.

Paula: No problem.

Paula: I was delighted to do it.

Paula: Of course I have to test it as well.

Paula: It was really easy.

Paula: So that’s the bottom line.

Paula: So listen, kick us off with them.

Paula: I suppose the biggest news in terms of the legal changes that you’ve gone through.

Paula: I know it’s not something that affects consumers directly in any way, but clearly we have a loyalty audience, very sophisticated audience here around the world, and always very interested to hear about when a program is, I suppose, becoming more transparent and transforming its way of operating.

Paula: So will you tell us what’s happened and why?

Paula: Sure.

Ben: So, yeah, we were very lucky to have just completed this transaction.

Ben: I mean, it was a lot of hard work by a lot of people.

Ben: But what it does is it creates a separate shell around Flying Blue, still owned by Air France and KLM and the Air France KLM group.

Ben: But what it does is it allows us to recognize the value and the equity that Flying Blue brings independently of the airlines.

Ben: So now, we’ll be able to start reporting financially on the actual value of Flying Blue, on the results.

Ben: We’ve always had an analytical P&L, but now it’ll become much more officialized.

Ben: And as a result of this, we were able to raise one and a half billion euros in quasi-equity from Apollo, which is a private equity firm, which highlights that even in this environment of rising interest rates and everything else, that there still is a lot of value that the private equity world sees in loyalty programs, in particular ours.

Ben: And I think we credit the strength of our other brands, Air France and KLM, and of course, some of the innovative things that we’ve done in the Loyalty program to be able to lend credibility and value to this.

Ben: So I’m very proud of that.

Ben: But as you mentioned, there’s no change to customers, there’s no change to how the program is structured, how it’s managed, to our business strategy, to the value that we try to deliver to our customers.

Ben: All of that remains the same.

Ben: But like I said, it allows the company to actually recognize the value that we bring.

Paula: Brilliant, brilliant, yeah.

Paula: And I think you’re a particularly, Ben, in my mind, is particularly a market where privacy laws are extremely strict.

Paula: So protecting all of that and keeping it, as you said, within the same ownership fundamentally means, of course, that you can continue business as usual, but you do get the access to the capital.

Paula: So congratulations on that achievement.

Paula: It’s a really good deal.

Paula: Yeah, great news all around.

Paula: Super stuff.

Paula: So listen, then, let’s move on to what does change for consumers from the program side.

Paula: I know you announced some pricing changes recently, which were really good news for people who are looking to redeem, looking to fly, and probably quite different to what’s happening even in this part of the world, for example, where it is becoming more expensive, for example, to redeem, and that’s often the reality of what the market needs.

Paula: But you seem to be going the opposite direction.

Paula: So tell us what’s happening.

Paula: You’re reducing retention prices.

Paula: Brilliant news.

Ben: Well, we’re doing what we can.

Ben: I mean, I can’t promise it’s across the board.

Ben: I mean, there is a small percentage that did go up in price.

Ben: But for the vast majority of our awards, we were able to lower them.

Ben: And I mean, 78, 80 percent of our awards, I think we were able to lower.

Ben: And the rationale is simple.

Ben: I mean, for us, we look at where we have an attractive internal transfer price to our revenue management team based on when we look to fill seats that would otherwise go empty.

Ben: And we were able to kind of better, it’s called common rating, different destinations.

Ben: So now New York and San Francisco to Paris or Amsterdam will be priced equivalently when there is inventory available.

Ben: Now, we are the only ones in Europe to offer fully dynamic pricing, where you can redeem your miles for any scale of the plane, even when the plane is quite full or expects it to be full.

Ben: So there are some instances, of course, where you want to have low prices, but when that inventory is there, it has now actually been reduced by sometimes up to 10,000-15,000 miles, which I think positions us as being quite the attractive option, particularly for miles conversion programs, which I think I mentioned this before.

Ben: For us, that’s a big portion of our business.

Ben: In the US in particular, these programs are quite big.

Ben: A lot of the banks have credit cards that earn points that you can then convert into frequent flyer programs.

Ben: So of course, MX Rewards is the biggest, but there’s also Chase, there’s Citi, Capital One.

Ben: We, of course, have a partnership with BILT.

Ben: So the logic is roughly the same.

Ben: You can transfer it to Flying Blue, and then you can redeem.

Ben: And a lot of the challenge that national, to the US, an international program has, is we’re not always top of mind.

Ben: So we also look at some of our partners, like Point.me, for example, which acts as a Google flight or an OTA for redemption, that allows us to very easily compare the availability and pricing of award tickets, and then it tells them kind of where to transfer my points to, and how do I book.

Ben: And for us, when we can still remain practical and offer attractive award inventory and options to our customers in the US, in particular, for us, it’s a really good source of value that I think that we offer, and one which will actually lead us to having over 50% of our award tickets being issued point of sale US at about mid next year, which is a really interesting statistic, I think, for a foreign loyalty program.

Paula: Yes, absolutely.

Paula: Yeah, quite a milestone for you, huh?

Paula: Amazing.

Ben: Yeah, I think it shows that there’s still some interest in that broad, yeah.

Paula: You know, and I often think I don’t pay enough attention on the consumer side because I haven’t actually used point.me, but I do remember the last time we spoke, you were like, you’ve been, I think, a points geek since you were like, I don’t know, five years old or something.

Paula: So it sounds like that is the definitive comparison.

Paula: The definitive comparison side for the reward side.

Paula: Is that, is it more US focused or Europe focused?

Ben: It’s a tool that I think just democratizes what kind of many people refer to as a hobby.

Ben: You know, myself included ever since I got into this game as it were.

Ben: You know, you always look for outsized value, you try to find how can I go either the most roundabout way, but the most time in premium cabins, how do I travel in first class for next to nothing, how do I get from A to B relatively cheaply, how do I go with my family to Disneyland on a spring break.

Ben: I mean, everyone has their own kind of value proposition that they’re looking for.

Ben: There’s no correct way to redeem miles.

Ben: But previously, I mean, you had to kind of be quite well versed in kind of the loyalty sphere to kind of understand that, okay, I can transfer my US-based credit card points to a Colombian-based frequent flyer program to redeem on a German airline between…

Ben: You’d have to kind of understand these things to know that this was an attractive way to redeem your points.

Ben: But, people, it’s not always top of mind.

Ben: If you look at, you don’t want to name any names, but to say, okay, Delta, for example, being the biggest partner of Amex in the US, and of course, it’s a partner of ours, it stands to reason that I would think a large majority of people transfer their Amex MR points to Delta.

Ben: Well, what I like them to also to know is that we also offer good value.

Ben: And that Flying Blue is an attractive transfer point as well.

Ben: And that’s where tools like Point.me come in, because it democratizes this and it allows customers to kind of see firsthand, hey, there’s other options for me to redeem my points.

Ben: Going via another airline, another carrier that I might not have thought of at first.

Ben: Air Canada has done a really good job with my former employer, but I’m also very happy to see a lot of what they’ve done and think the team there is fantastic.

Ben: And I think they, you know, you’ve seen they’ve added a lot of airline partners, that’s the strategy.

Ben: And, you know, one, we’re also looking to grow as well.

Ben: But when you do that, it means that, okay, so we’re Air France, KLM, if I’m sitting in somewhere in the US or the UK or Australia, and I have dozens of partners that I can transfer my points to, I might think, well, I’m going to transfer on Qantas.

Ben: I want to fly on Qantas if I’m in Australia.

Ben: I want to travel BA if I’m sitting in the UK or Delta if I’m sitting in the US.

Ben: But to say, if I transfer to Air Canada, I can travel on 45 different airlines serving destinations that this one airline might not travel or inventory that they might not have available.

Ben: You start to create more of a higher value proposition for that currency.

Ben: And I think that’s why Air Canada is doing really well.

Ben: Their loyalty program is so highly rated by many people in this industry.

Ben: And so like I said, I mean, I have a lot of thanks for what they’ve done.

Ben: I think also there are things that we’re doing.

Ben: I think they make us quite attractive.

Ben: But I know there’s a lot of really cool things that are going on right now.

Paula: For sure.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: And definitely for me, it does start to get very exciting.

Paula: Of course, as the balances grow and where I live, I’m lucky enough here in Dubai to be able to get the credit cards and start to build up the balances.

Paula: And I know you guys also announced something relevant here, so I’m definitely going to go and have to check out.

Paula: So I’d love you just to talk about the Etihad Partnership.

Paula: I think, again, another feather in your cap, and that was just announced a couple of weeks ago.

Paula: So I’d love you to tell our global audience.

Paula: Yeah, it’s, I think, a full earn-and-burn partnership, yeah?

Ben: Yeah, so we are actually quite excited about that one.

Ben: That’s a strategic partnership with Air France, KLM and Etihad.

Ben: But for the first time, we have recently just implemented a full earn-and-burn relationship with them.

Ben: So you can use your Flying Blue miles to redeem on Etihad and vice versa, which greatly expands the number of destinations that our members can earn and spend on.

Ben: We are exploring and negotiating reciprocal benefits for our elite members, so that will come shortly, which I think is also a nice touch.

Ben: Always good for our top tier members.

Ben: And Air France recently launched its daily flight from Paris to Abu Dhabi, connecting it to Etihad’s network.

Ben: We then co-chair on that flight and they also co-chair on our flight out of Paris.

Ben: So it’s been a nice partnership, I think, and we’re also quite pleased with the earning burden.

Ben: Like I said, we’re also looking to add more partners as well.

Paula: Okay.

Paula: So you heard it here first, anyone who’s listening and wants to work with Flying Blue, definitely got to reach out to Ben and get those conversations kicked off.

Paula: So brilliant news.

Paula: So listen, we’re coming in to 2024 now.

Paula: I think, you know, if anything, I have learned from talking with people specifically in airlines, I think the to-do list is never ending.

Paula: There are a million ideas.

Paula: There’s just so much exciting work that can be done.

Paula: So I’d love to get a sense about what is, I suppose, being prioritized for Flying Blue.

Paula: Tell us, what are you thinking?

Paula: What’s on the roadmap?

Paula: What can we look forward to in different markets?

Ben: Oh, where to start?

Ben: There’s a couple of exciting things that we have coming up for 2024.

Ben: I will give you a sneak peek now.

Ben: I mean, we’re looking at launching a subscription product, which you’ve seen some airlines launch, not just for buying miles, but also for benefits.

Ben: I think Emirates launched Skywards Plus a while ago.

Ben: That’s turned out really well for that.

Ben: We have our own spin on that.

Ben: That we’re looking at, which I think will be engineered towards customers to complement and enhance their elite tier, not to replace it.

Ben: So we don’t want to make people think that you can buy status and then no longer worry about flying with us.

Ben: That’s not the point.

Paula: OK.

Ben: But we do want to offer people benefits that will help enhance that elite tier.

Ben: So that’s one thing that we’re doing.

Ben: We’re looking to grow kind of more of the sustainable options, that people can use their miles for.

Ben: And of course, to highlight once again, of course, that we’re the only loyalty program, I think, in the world.

Ben: Certainly, we were the first that awarded, that awards status currency, or what we call XP, for purchasing SAF, or Sustainable Integration Fuel, or donating to a sustainable charity that we’re partners with, which effectively is saying to customers, you need to fly less, because if you earn certain amounts of XP from purchasing SAF, you no longer need to fly much to either earn or maintain your tier, which for us is quite important as part of our corporate CSR goals.

Ben: We’re also looking at enhancing benefits for our top tier, particularly our Platinum and Ultimate tier customers.

Ben: And that should be announced in the coming months.

Ben: And again, just trying to make sure that we were competitive and an interesting choice for our members based in Europe and abroad.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: Well, incredible.

Paula: I know particularly in Europe, I think we talked about it the last time, the whole environment focus is something that is a very important topic.

Paula: Less so on other markets.

Paula: And as you know, I’m sitting in Dubai.

Paula: We’ve just had COP 28 here, which I think has been an interesting choice of destination.

Paula: It’s wonderful for this city.

Paula: But there’s a lot of people a little confused to say, actually, this is a part of the world that does produce fuel.

Paula: So the whole sustainable piece is perhaps an even more important message.

Paula: And so I like that you have found a way to connect the status, as you said, into a sustainable proposition.

Paula: And I know you said last time as well, it’s almost like if you must fly, please fly with us.

Paula: But we’re not asking you to fly more.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: I think is that still a core message for you?

Paula: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

Ben: I think you’ve seen the message change, certainly for us and I’m sure many other programs as well, where we understand that there’s an environmental impact to flying.

Ben: But at the same time, I think the joy of travel, the benefit that we’re able to offer customers by bridging the world and cultures.

Ben: I live in France, but my family lives 10 hours away in Canada.

Ben: So I mean, short of sailing, I mean, there’s very little other option I have.

Ben: So what travel allows us to do is to explore, to understand each other better, to learn about different cultures, to try different foods.

Ben: I mean, these kinds of things are, we take for granted.

Ben: I think with the last 20, 30, 40 years, it’s seen the boon of travel.

Ben: It would be quite arrogant and selfish of us to say, oh, you know what?

Ben: Our kids no longer have that opportunity.

Ben: So I think what we have to do is collectively, as an industry, is to work towards making sustainable aviation a reality.

Ben: And so from an Air France KLM perspective, like I say, we’re proud of the steps that we’re taking.

Ben: The airplanes that we’re buying, they will help us emit fewer emissions and have more of an environmentally sustainable footprint.

Ben: Working on things like reducing some of these plastics and reducing weight and offering bamboo, and all of these kinds of things, they all add up.

Ben: And then on a loyalty program, like I say, we take our responsibility.

Ben: And we’re not here to say you need to fly more.

Ben: We’re saying when you do need to fly, fly Air France KLM.

Ben: And by being one of the only programs that actually says, you can earn status 100% if you want, by purchasing SAF, we’re really putting our money where our mouth is.

Ben: And it’s something for us, which is an important core tenet of our program, and something which we’re proud of, and will help us meet our SAF targets for the coming years.

Ben: So for us, no, it’s an important message, and not one that we’re trying to greenwash, but one that’s our reality.

Paula: Yeah, for sure.

Paula: It’s funny, I’ve noticed myself, Ben, as I’ve become again, back in, fully flying commercially.

Paula: I was lucky enough previously to be staff of an airline.

Paula: I didn’t have to worry about it.

Paula: But now that I am having to pay for my own tickets, I’ve been chasing the redemption tickets, of course, but I’ve just lost my gold status.

Paula: Now I’m chasing status.

Paula: So every single email that comes in, I’m literally going, okay, where is the opportunity to get back to gold?

Paula: And actually, it’s the first time in my life, I’ve had that kind of opportunity.

Paula: So that’s why I’m smiling away to myself here to go, oh, there’s another one.

Paula: And you’re right, there is options here, for example, with the subscription program, with Emirates, where there is a way to get there sooner.

Paula: Again, not a way to replace the need to fly, but certainly I am very keen to get back to the gold status.

Paula: So that’s really good.

Paula: Yeah, and the sustainable piece, as you said, I know there’s a risk of greenwashing and people can be a little bit cynical, but we have to start, we have to do our best.

Paula: And I think the loyalty program and the currencies and the levers that we have are available to kind of change that behavior as much as we possibly can.

Paula: So talking more about part…

Paula: Sorry, go on.

Paula: Yeah.

Ben: Sorry.

Ben: I was just going to say to kind of respond to what you had just said.

Ben: I mean, I think what you mentioned about trying to go back to gold status and trying to find the opportunity is something which, you know, I kind of refer to as this irrational behavior because there’s this aspirational award, right?

Ben: So whatever your aspirational award is, whether it’s wanting to travel, you know, to Japan in business class, or whether it’s wanting to get gold, because you like the benefits, you know, for you, that’s this aspiration that you have.

Ben: And it drives your behavior because you like the program, you like the benefits, you like how it, you know, you feel it reflects your values, whatever it is.

Ben: So you, you know, as a customer, would be willing to go out of your way to perhaps pay a bit more or choose that flight if it was a little bit less convenient than a competitor because that drives your decision.

Ben: And so when I look at what my job as a, you know, head of loyalty program, it’s really, it’s that, it’s to stimulate what you’ve just said, which is to say, how do I make you make irrational decisions by offering you something which you value so that you’ll continue to choose us.

Ben: And that’s, you’ve just, you just said it very perfectly.

Ben: I just wanted to highlight that.

Paula: You know what?

Paula: It’s also happening as well, though, Ben, you know, I’m now, you know, guiding my husband’s behavior.

Paula: So the role of advocacy shouldn’t be underestimated either, you know, because there are some people who really want to.

Ben: That’s how I got into this.

Ben: I was managing my dad’s frequent flyer program when I was about 12 years old.

Ben: So it’s.

Ben: I get it.

Paula: Amazing, amazing, brilliant stuff.

Paula: Great.

Paula: So brilliant.

Paula: Yeah, absolutely.

Paula: We’re all about the status and partnerships is another one, Ben, that I know you have on the roadmap.

Paula: We did have one of your partnerships directors on, I think it was about two years ago now.

Paula: But for me, I suppose the roadmap that you mentioned to me offline about, you know, starting to get more integrated, more deeply in the e-commerce space.

Paula: I’d love you to explain this overall concept because it sounds quite genius.

Paula: It sounds like something that hasn’t been done anywhere else.

Paula: So will you tell us about getting deeply embedded with some of the e-commerce brands in Europe?

Ben: Sure.

Ben: So, you know, I think many loyalty programs have realized that they need to branch out into kind of what they call the lifestyle space or, you know, going after the commercial partners.

Ben: Many airlines have partnerships with Starbucks, Uber, you know, those kinds of stores.

Ben: And we’re also targeting those kinds of things.

Ben: But what we’re also trying to do is think a little bit outside the box.

Ben: I think there’s one or two airlines that have done this as well.

Ben: But there’s a partner that we use, that we work with called LoyLogic.

Ben: And they have a program called Points Pay.

Ben: And what this tool does is that when we work with them, is they integrate directly into the merchant’s checkout flow.

Ben: Meaning, so Rituals, the Dutch skincare brand, is one of the first partners that we’ve gone live with.

Ben: And it means that when you’re in Rituals’ environment and you’re wanting to check out from purchasing the product, you will see Pay with credit card, PayPal, Pay with Miles.

Ben: And so it allows us to be present directly in the customer’s journey in their shopping environment without even having an affiliate link or anything coming from the website.

Ben: So it’s a really unique thing that allows us to be present in those kinds of transactions, particularly online.

Ben: We’re also going to be launching an application, our own app, next year probably.

Ben: Well, definitely next year.

Ben: And it will be engineered 100% towards earning miles, both online and offline.

Ben: So not connected to the actual airline environment, so it’s separate from the Air France and KLM apps.

Ben: But specifically on the earning miles.

Ben: So you’ve seen, I think, British Airways and United have done something similar.

Ben: And this is going to be our version of that, which really allows customers to kind of find merchants in their local environment that will allow them to earn more miles every day.

Ben: So for us, it’s an important part of making sure the program remains relevant so that we can find new ways to encourage customers to earn miles and then, of course, use those miles on other parts of the world.

Paula: So just so I understand the distinction, Ben, so the app you talked about of your own, which you said is going to launch, I’m guessing 2025 as we come into 2024.

Paula: So that’s an affiliate-based model, is it?

Ben: Right, it’ll be by the end of 2020.

Paula: End of 2020?

Ben: So it’s a mix.

Ben: So there’s an affiliate-based model.

Paula: Okay.

Ben: Yeah, so it’ll be an affiliate-based model, but also tying into ALO, which is called Account-Linked Offers and CLO, or Card-Linked Offers.

Ben: Amex, actually, with their Amex offers was kind of the pioneer of the CLO model.

Ben: Many other banks have kind of picked up on this, and there’s a few other companies that have followed suit.

Ben: ALO is a little bit more unique to Europe because of the integration with open banking and the EU directives of PSD, Payment Service Directives, which permit open banking and allow companies to kind of spot transactions so you can spend directly from your bank or your debit card, and it will be able to track your spend both online, which is the affiliate based model, but also offline in the merchant store directly, which is quite unique.

Ben: So we’re looking forward to that.

Paula: Incredible.

Paula: And then as you said, the e-commerce embedded option to me sounds the most sexy.

Paula: I’m guessing it’s going to be very clearly branded in terms of Flying Blue.

Paula: So Pay with Miles will have your brand everywhere throughout those beautiful stores.

Paula: And again, I know anything like a ritual brand, of course, really prides itself on a beautiful user experience.

Paula: So the idea that people can pay with miles, I’m guessing they can part pay, can they Ben?

Paula: Because I’m assuming it’s a cash plus miles.

Ben: Yeah, you can do exactly.

Ben: And you can do it, I should mention it’s both earn and burn.

Ben: So if you choose to pay with cash, you’ll actually earn miles from participating merchants in addition to the miles on your co-brand credit card, for example.

Ben: So you can either pay 100% with miles, pay part cash, miles or all cash.

Ben: But if you go through that channel, you’ll earn bonus money.

Ben: And it’s part of this new ecosystem that we’re calling Flying Blue Plus.

Ben: And that’s, like I said, there’s the online merchants that we have.

Ben: It’s kind of more leading to that every day usage of miles.

Paula: Wow.

Paula: Well, I haven’t heard it announced anywhere else, Ben.

Paula: So I’m going to say to our audience that you heard it here first.

Paula: That may not be true, but.

Ben: You’re the first.

Ben: Yeah.

Paula: Wow.

Paula: Well, LoyaltyTV.

Paula: You’re the first.

Paula: Oh, my goodness.

Paula: We’ve got an exclusive.

Paula: OK.

Paula: Wow.

Paula: That’s very exciting.

Paula: My goodness.

Paula: Honestly, you’re doing so much, Ben.

Paula: There’s just a lot going on.

Paula: And as I said, this show is all about innovation.

Paula: It’s all about sharing, you know, what’s not being seen necessarily yet in our own market so that we can learn from each other.

Paula: So very inspiring to see what you’re building.

Paula: And with all of that, I’m almost afraid to say what else?

Paula: Is there anything else that you’re thinking about, talking about, wondering about?

Paula: I mean, I honestly, as I said, I know what the wish list is long and deep, but is there anything else that you’d love to be able to do if you had, I suppose, you know, all the resources in the world?

Ben: Well, that’s the key right there is all the resources.

Ben: I mean, I think, you know, all of the loyalty programs, I was at an event and there was a dinner and there was a bunch of, you know, my counterparts had to go to the loyalty programs.

Ben: And it was quite funny because even on an airline level, if we compete on a loyalty level, it was quite funny to hear that we all have the same challenges and the same drive.

Ben: I mean, we all are, you know, trying to shift customers to work with us.

Ben: But a lot of the time, we run into the same, you know, challenge for resources.

Ben: But no, I mean, I think if we had, you know, all the money and all the time and all the people in the world to work on this, there’s so much that we love to do.

Ben: I think we’re really lucky to have Lynx, Lynx, I mean, that’s some other brands, but with Air France and KLM, I think these are two strong, global, historic brands that people love, that really resonate with people around the world.

Ben: You know, France is the, Paris is the number one tourist city in the world.

Ben: I think France is the number one inbound tourist destination of 100 million people a year.

Ben: And of course, we have the Olympics in Paris in 2024.

Ben: So, you know, it really represents a huge opportunity for, you know, Flying Blue, but also for Air France and KLM to, you know, kind of engage customers and find new ways to keep them loyal, keep them coming back.

Ben: So one of the things we’re looking at doing as well, and whether that will launch next year or in 2025, I’m not yet sure, but is experiences.

Ben: So we see, I mean, you mentioned Accor.

Ben: All they do this really well, I think Marriott Moments and Starwood, they did this with the pioneers, where you can use your points for experiences.

Ben: We’re really lucky because, you know, using your points to be able to, say, train with the pilots in a flight simulator.

Ben: Or, you know, in Air France, we have something like 20 different chefs that sign the menus.

Ben: Yeah.

Ben: So we think that you can have one meeting with the Schnitz or a meal in their restaurant, Yeah.

Ben: you know, or, you know, take the Olympics that are coming up next year.

Ben: These are all things that we’re planning on doing to really kind of create these money can buy experiences, which, again, keep people engaged in Flying Blue, keep people flying Air France and KLM, and keep people thinking about us and being top of mind, even in international markets.

Ben: So that’s kind of the next big project for us.

Paula: Okay.

Paula: Well, we will definitely have to stay, I suppose, closely connected.

Paula: I want to make sure that we get all of the updates and all the exclusives.

Paula: I’m super excited that we’ve had all of that kind of news and that you’ve shared so generously today, Ben.

Paula: Listen, I just want to say, you know, again, thank you for your time.

Paula: Thank you for sharing.

Paula: Is there anything else, Ben, that you wanted to say today before we wrap up?

Paula: I know we have a busy year ahead for 2024.

Paula: Anything else you wanted to mention?

Ben: No, I’d like to thank you for having me on the show and thank everyone listening for listening.

Ben: And of course, hopefully, they’ll become members of Flying Blue, if they’re not already, and continue to choose their friends and Caitlin for the next trips.

Paula: Fantastic.

Paula: Okay.

Paula: So Mr.

Paula: Ben Lipsey, Senior Vice President of Customer Loyalty and President of Flying Blue, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Ben: Thank you, Paula.

Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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