#227: Measuring the Value of Loyalty Marketing Investment with Epsilon

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.

PAULA: Hello and welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: Focusing on perhaps the single biggest issues, I believe is facing all of us as loyalty marketeers.

PAULA: We’re discussing today how to measure and prove the value of your investment in loyalty marketing initiatives.

PAULA: Something we know is really challenging for so many of us, and is often the biggest concern for the senior executives in your business.

PAULA: To discuss this and kick off an exciting year-long partnership with Epsilon to help address this issue for all of you listening globally, I’m excited to be joined today by Brad Macdonald, Vice President of Loyalty Strategy at Epsilon, to firstly introduce their new Client Loyalty Labs, launching in Australia next week.

PAULA: We’re also together launching a unique, personalized and private loyalty lab every month for one lucky listener of Let’s Talk Loyalty, where one of you will have the opportunity to work with the experts at Epsilon for an independent review of your loyalty program, and come away with some concrete ideas to drive its performance to a whole new level.

PAULA: This monthly workshop is a no-strings-attached way that together Let’s Talk Loyalty and Epsilon can support you.

PAULA: So please do enjoy my conversation today, and learn how to apply for your free loyalty lab workshop, courtesy of the experts at Epsilon.

PAULA: So, Brad Macdonald, welcome back to Let’s Talk Loyalty.

BRAD: Thanks, Paula.

BRAD: Good to be back.

PAULA: I can’t believe it’s actually been already six months since we had our last conversation, Brad.

PAULA: So, how is life treating you in Epsilon?

BRAD: It’s been really busy and really good.

BRAD: We’re just struggling to keep up with all the work that’s coming in.

BRAD: I think there’s a lot going on in the loyalty space right now, and a lot of things changing, and it’s been exciting.

PAULA: For sure.

PAULA: And I always think that’s a high quality problem, as I say, Brad.

PAULA: And what I’m particularly seeing is that you’re spending more and more time, I suppose, in my part of the world, and even down as far as Asia Pacific.

PAULA: So we’ll be getting into some of the reasons around all of that, but some incredible work being done by Epsilon in APAC.

PAULA: But before we get into all of that, Brad, let’s start with my new favorite loyalty question, as I mentioned to you, which is trying to get an understanding of what is your favorite loyalty program?

BRAD: Yeah, I’m a big fan of the Delta Airlines program.

BRAD: I previously worked at Delta Airlines.

BRAD: I’m a little bit biased.

PAULA: Okay.

BRAD: And love the airline industry.

BRAD: And so I’m always intrigued on what’s going on there.

BRAD: And I don’t spend much time working there anymore, but I’ve always been intrigued by just the level of engagement a member might have with a program like that and the opportunities that the airline has to treat high-value members in a special way, and the opportunities to recover from service failures in an interesting way.

BRAD: There’s just so many interesting things with the airline industry that I’ve always been intrigued by airline loyalty.

BRAD: But I think Delta has done a great job with it specifically.

BRAD: I concentrate most of my travel on Delta mostly based on where I live.

BRAD: But even if I lived in an area where I had more of a choice, I would choose Delta.

BRAD: I think they do a good job with, they’ve done a good job of integrating the member experience and loyalty into the broader brand experience.

BRAD: And more specifically for their medallion members, I think they’ve done a really good job coming up with some creative benefits and really delivering on the benefits.

BRAD: And I know that there’s always miles that you earn through the program as well, and those are interesting as well, and I use those.

BRAD: But I think they’ve done some interesting things above and beyond that monetary value that you’re getting out of the program that I really love.

BRAD: I guess my number one example would be, if I ever have a problem with the booking, I can call the medallion line, and they instantly pick up and say, hello, Brad, welcome back.

BRAD: How can we help you?

BRAD: And every person I’ve ever worked with on that line has always been very friendly and very flexible and just eager to help me solve my problems.

BRAD: And that to me is a larger benefit than any of the miles they’ll ever give me.

PAULA: I totally agree, Brad.

PAULA: Yes, and it’s not enough, I think, that we talk about using loyalty as a real benefit for service to really have that extraordinary impact on somebody who’s in a moment of whatever type of crisis is going on, airlines being, I suppose, particularly the ones that do tend to need it more than anything else, just operationally.

PAULA: But I remembered from my days in British Airways, delighted to hear that Delta’s doing such a wonderful job.

PAULA: I actually wasn’t familiar with the medallion tier that you talked about just there, but sounds like just an incredible program all around.

BRAD: Yeah, yeah, I think they’ve done a really good job.

BRAD: You know, they sort of hit on all of the areas of emotional loyalty and rational loyalty and the value you get out of that.

BRAD: And it just feels like they’ve done a good job, you know, creating that sort of member experience that kind of makes you feel special.

PAULA: Totally, totally.

BRAD: At least for me.

BRAD: And I know, you know, they’re not perfect, but you know, you can tell they’re trying.

PAULA: For sure, actually, sometimes that’s all we need, isn’t it?

PAULA: Somebody who’s willing, willing, that’s brilliant, yes.

PAULA: And I was looking back actually as well to our conversation, Brad, and remembering that you’re the only flight attendant, or let’s say, pardon me, former flight attendant that’s ever appeared on Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: So definitely you have a passion for the airline industry that goes all the way through.

PAULA: So it’s a great perspective, and a great start to this conversation.

PAULA: I think it’s fair to say when we met at the end of 2021, we were coming out of, I suppose, the shock of the pandemic, the consumer changes, behavior changes, I suppose, that were so dramatic.

PAULA: And I think all of the things we talked about then, Brad, are still very relevant in terms of, we talked about subscription, we talked about gamification.

PAULA: But I think we’re in the next phase now, I suppose, we start to feel a little bit of, dare I say it, normality again.

PAULA: So given your role as Vice President, Loyalty Strategy there in Epsilon, what would you say is the current kind of landscape for loyalty marketers and people listening to this show?

BRAD: Yeah, I think we’re definitely still riding the wave of loyalty that emerged during the pandemic.

BRAD: We saw at the beginning of the pandemic, at least from an Epsilon perspective, our workload just spiked immediately as the pandemic took off.

BRAD: And I think it was because a lot of brands realized the value of retaining those customers and trying to hold on to them no matter what.

BRAD: And they were looking for anything they could to hold on to those precious customers that weren’t shopping as frequently or were shopping in different ways that they didn’t have access to before.

BRAD: And so we saw just a spike of interest to Epsilon during that period.

BRAD: And nearly all of our customers, our new and existing customers during that period, were looking for ways to further engage and further entrench their customers, their brands.

BRAD: And so it was moving beyond just sort of the traditional loyalty tactics of Spend and Get, and some of the more traditional type of programs.

BRAD: And they’re really looking for like, how do we engage them more when they’re not shopping with us?

BRAD: Because you know, during the pandemic, a lot of them just weren’t shopping as frequently.

BRAD: So it was things like, more engaging communications or gamification, or rewarding them for non-transaction activity.

BRAD: So for, you know, just browsing a website or just like looking at a new product.

BRAD: So we saw a lot of that kind of activity take off, a lot of interest in that.

BRAD: And it hasn’t really stopped.

BRAD: So even though we’re sort of, hopefully, knock on wood at the end of the pandemic, you know, it feels like that interest level is still there.

BRAD: And I think we’re seeing a little bit of a shift now where, you know, at the time of the pandemic, it felt like they were making these decisions pretty quickly that they needed to move in that direction.

BRAD: And it was kind of an intuitive decision that they knew that they needed to do something and they knew loyalty worked.

BRAD: And now we’re at the point where I feel like there’s a need to kind of justify some of those decisions that they made at the time.

BRAD: And so we’re seeing a lot more of that now, and we’re responding to that at Epsilon with a much more stronger focus on the value that members or that clients can get out of loyalty.

PAULA: And that’s exactly, I suppose, what I’ve often said myself, Brad, it’s probably the area I struggled most with when I was leading programs.

PAULA: You know, I would regularly be challenged as to, you know, what kind of return or what kind of value are we getting to the business?

PAULA: And how do we measure it?

PAULA: Because at the end of the day, and I know all marketing suffers from this to a certain extent, but I think a loyalty program is a very specific investment.

PAULA: And again, it’s one that sometimes is extremely exciting for the business, but actually it still requires investment regardless, you know, whether it’s at launch phase or being delivered, you know, years later.

PAULA: So what are you, I suppose, saying to these kinds of clients as they do start to wonder about how do we measure the value to the brand of what we’ve been doing, you know, with these particular initiatives?

BRAD: Yeah, I’m like you where in, you know, when I was working on the client side of Loyalty, I was actually at Radisson Hotels.

BRAD: And I remember specifically, it was about every other month we would get asked to prove the value of the program.

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: And, you know, they, I think there were a lot of executives there at the time that viewed Loyalty as a giant cost center.

BRAD: They would look at the point liability associated with the program, and they would think, well, why don’t we take that and reinvest it in just building some more hotels?

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: Wouldn’t that be more valuable than a loyalty program?

BRAD: And it was, and so we spent a lot of time getting very creative on ways to show them that loyalty was providing value.

PAULA: Okay.

BRAD: And, you know, since I’ve been with Epsilon, we’ve continued to get those kinds of questions from our clients that want to know, like, how do I prove to my executives that loyalty works?

BRAD: How do I prove to them the ROI on it?

BRAD: How do I compare it to other marketing tactics?

BRAD: And it’s hard to do.

BRAD: It’s not an easy thing to do.

BRAD: You know, there’s a few reasons it’s hard.

BRAD: One is, you know, just the idea of how do you measure incremental value of a program above and beyond what a customer was probably going to do anyway.

PAULA: Sure.

BRAD: And so that’s really hard to do, especially if you don’t have anything to compare to, if we don’t have non-member performance to compare to, or if we don’t have sort of a before and after view to look at.

BRAD: So that’s hard.

BRAD: And then there’s always this question of causality, which is, is a member of the program, is a high value member in the program because they’re already shopping with us a lot, or are they here shopping with us a lot because we have the program in place?

BRAD: And so it’s hard to prove that causality.

BRAD: And then the other thing that I think makes it really hard is that we’ve been working really hard to blur the lines between loyalty programs and the broader customer experience.

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: And as we do that, it’s hard to draw a line and say, this is where loyalty starts or stops and where everything else takes over.

BRAD: And so we’re kind of creating our own problem here where we’re blurring the lines.

BRAD: And so now it’s even harder to answer that question of like, what’s the ROI on our loyalty efforts?

BRAD: And so there’s a few different ways that we’ve worked with clients on proving the value of the program.

BRAD: And I don’t know that there’s any one right solution to this, but we’ve got some pretty good analytics models that we use to help look at sort of what’s causing different, different sort of what’s the causality behind loyalty?

BRAD: What’s the correlation between loyalty and revenue performance?

BRAD: So we’ve got some of that that we use.

BRAD: We also do a lot with financial modeling, where we’ll do like a break even analysis on a program and say, well, here’s all the facts about your program.

BRAD: Here’s all the inputs and outputs.

BRAD: Here’s how much revenue it’s generating.

BRAD: What do we need to break even on this program?

BRAD: And do we believe that the program is at least doing that?

BRAD: So that’s one way we approach it.

BRAD: And then another way that we’ve done it in the past is also by looking at the future expected value of a member.

BRAD: And I know that a lot of airlines have done this.

BRAD: They did this during COVID, where they were valuing their programs based on the future expected performance of their members.

BRAD: In fact, there’s a really good article in the Harvard Business Review called The Loyalty Economy that has a really good view of kind of trying to predict the longer term lifetime value of a customer for loyalty.

BRAD: So there’s a few different ways that we’ve done it, but it’s not easy.

BRAD: And it’s a big kind of hairy question to answer.

BRAD: What’s the ROI of my loyalty program?

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: And I’m glad I’m not the only one who struggled with it, Brad, because typically I would have been the person where the book stopped with me.

PAULA: So it’s really difficult to be the person.

PAULA: And I was, I suppose, very strong operationally, but not very strong on the financial modeling, and still am not.

PAULA: So hands in the air, I’m definitely not the person to come to with the ROI question.

PAULA: But I always felt that it was me alone that had this particular challenge, but certainly throughout Let’s Talk Loyalty, I mean, we’re about 200 and something shows in now.

PAULA: And it’s something I do hear coming through from so many people because of the reasons you identified, Brad.

PAULA: So the first one, for example, I really love that you do have, obviously enough brain power in the strategy team to do the financial models, to at least be able to articulate an intelligent view of what breakeven looks like.

PAULA: So I can imagine you get an extraordinary response, even from clients, just to have that level of coherent thinking, I suppose.

PAULA: And again, with, I suppose, an external perspective that they can enjoy your view coming from other clients and the whole industry.

BRAD: Yeah, the financial modeling has been something that we’ve developed over the years, and we have some proprietary models that we use that look at, you know, it’s sort of like a five-year forecast of what we expect loyalty to do.

BRAD: So we use benchmarks from a lot of the different clients that we work with to try to estimate, you know, like how fast do we think this program is gonna grow?

BRAD: What kinds of, you know, benefits are there to the program, and what do we think the return might be in terms of increased frequency, or increased spend, or increased retention?

BRAD: And then the secret to all of that is that we do a ton of sensitivity analysis around it.

BRAD: So because there’s so many unknowns, you know, we do a lot of like Monte Carlo analysis and other sensitivity where we say, well, we don’t know exactly how much return we’re gonna get on this benefit, but what if it was in this range?

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: Where we’ve seen from other programs that they typically get somewhere between here and here.

BRAD: And that allows us to produce kind of a range of expected benefits for a program, which allows us to then optimize, because once we know kind of the range, we can say, okay, what are the factors that might cause us to be lower and how can we mitigate some of those factors?

BRAD: Or, you know, here’s some of the ones that are gonna drive it higher.

BRAD: How do we double down on some of those benefits and make sure that we’re getting everything out of those that we can?

PAULA: And I would say, yeah, I think what particularly is resonating there, what you’re talking about, Brad, is the focus on behavior change.

PAULA: Because I think what, you know, particularly, I suppose, our colleagues in finance, I suppose, assume is that it is, you know, driven by trying to build the emotional connection to the brand, which so much marketing is, of course, and there’s a role for that.

PAULA: But I think I’ve always been most excited about loyalty because of its role driving behavior change.

PAULA: And it sounds like something that that’s, at least you can start to have the right conversations and language that they know you’re at least, again, focused on things that actually drive the business performance.

BRAD: Yeah, I’m really glad that you said the words behavior change because that’s exactly how I’ve been thinking about it.

BRAD: And that’s how we’ve been sort of focusing our efforts at Epsilon over the past year or two is, we’re really trying to focus on the value that a client can get out of loyalty.

BRAD: And instead of this traditional approach of, let’s build a one-size-fits-all program.

BRAD: If we build it, they will come.

BRAD: Now let’s measure the ROI of this thing to see whether it worked.

BRAD: There’s so many programs that have been built that way, which it’s just, there’s so many things wrong with that, right?

PAULA: Totally, yeah.

BRAD: And so we’re trying to focus more on what we call our value led approach, which is starting with, okay, who are our target customers?

BRAD: So who are the ones that we care about changing behavior for?

BRAD: What kind of behavior do we want to change for those or maintain, right?

BRAD: There might be some that we just want to maintain their behavior.

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: And then after we’ve identified that, and that behavior can be totally different.

BRAD: Your best customers, it might just be about retention of those versus your new customers.

BRAD: It might be about onboarding and engagement versus you might have a switcher segment that you want to just get one more visit out of those customers.

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: And so, the one size fits all approach just definitely doesn’t work.

BRAD: You need to have a strategy across all of your different target segments.

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: And then once we’ve identified that strategy, then it’s about setting objectives for each of those.

BRAD: So very measurable objectives.

BRAD: So for example, that switcher segment I just talked about, it’s one thing to say we just want more visits from them, but setting a specific objective is the next step, which is, let’s say we want to get 10% more visits from 10% of those customers.

BRAD: So setting very specific objectives for each of your segments, which then makes it very measurable.

BRAD: It’s easy to measure that objective and say, did we get 10% more visits from 10% of those switchers?

BRAD: Or did we lengthen our attention for our best customer segments by 5% like we said we were going to?

BRAD: So we believe if you have your objectives broken down by your segments, and you’ve identified what behavior change you want, then measuring value becomes a lot easier.

BRAD: Then it’s not a matter of saying, what’s the overall ROI for this program?

BRAD: Then it’s a matter of saying, did we meet our individual objectives for each of the different segments?

BRAD: And if we did, the loyalty is successful.

PAULA: Yes, yeah.

PAULA: And what I’m hoping, you know, dare I say it, Brad, is in the future, we mightn’t get, you know, the question every second month, you know, is this still the right use of our money investing in loyalty?

PAULA: You know, if we can start to, you know, prepare in advance and have those answers upfront with those detailed objectives, as you said, so we can say, yep, behavior change, revenue return, all of those kind of things.

PAULA: I think it’ll just back a lot of the concerns that we’ve had in the years, you know, gone by.

BRAD: Yeah.

BRAD: And the other, I think, important point is that value comes in different formats.

BRAD: It’s not all, it’s not always about a monetary return, or at least an easily measurable monetary return.

BRAD: You know, you might have a segment that you want to cultivate as ambassadors for your program.

BRAD: And, you know, that’s, it’s hard to assign a dollar value to that, but it’s easy to measure whether you’ve made progress against that or not.

PAULA: Sure.

BRAD: And so I think if we can, you know, clearly define what those objectives are for the different segments, then it changes that conversation.

BRAD: So when we get asked the question, what’s the ROI of my program, you can say, well, let’s look at the individual objectives.

BRAD: You know, for this segment, it was to do this.

BRAD: For this segment, it was to do this.

BRAD: And let’s show you the progress that we made against those goals.

BRAD: Versus answering this question of what’s the program worth, because that’s a really big kind of hairy question to answer.

PAULA: Let’s stay away from the hairy questions.

PAULA: I love it.

PAULA: But what I’m hearing coming through as well, Brad, is, you know, I’ve known Epsilon now maybe for just about three years and starting back in Ireland.

PAULA: So wonderful relationships all over the world now with you guys.

PAULA: But I suppose, you know, in the past, you know, I’ve really only been aware of the technology and the platform and all of that kind of wonderful work and the extraordinary clients.

PAULA: Well, what I’m hearing now is a much more focus and positioning of you guys with, you know, really inputting into the loyalty strategy, even if you are not necessarily delivering on technology.

PAULA: And I think that’s extraordinary that you’re making yourselves available to have that expertise available for people who have these big questions.

BRAD: Yeah, yeah, we work with a number of clients who aren’t using our technology.

BRAD: We would we prefer that they do, but obviously, you know, one step at a time.

BRAD: Yeah, we work with a lot of clients who don’t have our technology or may not need our technology or maybe it’s not the perfect fit.

BRAD: But the other thing that we’re doing is we are trying to build the strategy mentality into our technology.

BRAD: So it’s nice.

BRAD: Our broader strategy is not just that we have, you know, strategy and technology as two separate offerings.

BRAD: We’re really trying to integrate those two into one offering.

PAULA: Yeah.

BRAD: And you know, as an example of how that works, I just talked about this value led approach.

BRAD: You know, so instead of kind of measuring the value through a strategic or analytical process outside of our technology, we’re looking for some interesting ways to integrate that into the technology.

BRAD: So we’re really focused on a lot of the reporting and tools that we can build into the platform that can make it really easy to set goals against different target segments and to measure your objectives and measure your progress against those goals.

BRAD: So we’re really trying to take that sort of strategic mindset and integrate it into the platform so that it’s kind of a unified experience for our clients versus having two separate offerings that we offer them.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah, makes sense, yeah.

PAULA: And I’ve often said there are so many wonderful consultants in the world, but remarkably few that have the expertise of, you know, running a loyalty program, particularly at scale, like I know you guys do for Walgreens, for Duncan, and I know I saw Macdonald’s recently on your website as well, that you guys are working particularly with this Loyalty Strategy consulting service.

BRAD: Yeah, yeah, we’ve been working with Macdonald’s for I think a little over a year now, maybe longer than that, but they’ve been a great client and we’ve been able to take part in their exciting journey to Yeah.

BRAD: You know, they’ve experimented with some different things and they’ve tried some different things, which I think is the right way to do it, right?

PAULA: Totally.

BRAD: Let’s get creative and try some different things which they’ve totally embraced and they’ve done it.

BRAD: And, you know, we’re happy to see their success with their newer efforts.

PAULA: It’s absolutely extraordinary.

PAULA: And I said to you off air, Brad, hopefully we will get Macdonald’s on the show at some time soon because there are so many people all over the world that just admire that brand business wise for so many reasons.

PAULA: So to see Macdonald’s investing in Loyalty at such scale and with such phenomenal results, I mean, it’s absolutely breathtaking.

PAULA: So hopefully one to come in the future.

PAULA: But I suppose back to your own proving of the value to the brand, Brad, I know what you’re starting to do now is run these workshops which are literally kicking off now very soon.

PAULA: I think it’s next week in Australia with Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne.

PAULA: So I hope you’ve allowed enough time for your jet lag because I know you’re going to be flying an awful long way to deliver these workshops.

PAULA: But tell us about the Epsilon Loyalty Labs that you’re starting to offer to your clients.

BRAD: Yeah, we believe that there is a big opportunity for us to educate clients on this value led approach that we’ve gotten, that we’re taking, and that there’s a lot of clients out there who struggle with just even the business case for Loyalty.

BRAD: And I think there’s a lot of potential clients out there who they know that they want to do something with Loyalty.

BRAD: They have seen other kind of best-in-class programs.

BRAD: They want to grow up to be like them someday, but they just don’t know where to start.

BRAD: And so we’ve put together what we call the Loyalty Labs, which is an introductory workshop with these clients to help them understand where can you get value out of a program, and also what value can you provide to your members.

BRAD: And at the end of the workshop, we’d like them to have a clear idea of here’s the path I need to take to identify where there’s potential value, what are the steps I need to get it, and then at the end of that, how do I measure the results to optimize on that.

BRAD: And so as we introduce clients to this kind of process and our thinking around how you get there and make recommendations to them, we think that that education can go a long way.

BRAD: And hopefully they’ll choose to continue to work with us in building out a program and at some point purchasing our technology.

BRAD: That’s the ultimate goal, but even if they don’t decide to, we think there’s a big opportunity for education and helping these clients figure out where is there an opportunity and how do I justify that?

BRAD: How do I take this opportunity back to my executives and show them that there’s potential value and that there’s a size of the prize associated with this?

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: So for people listening to this show today, Brad, obviously Let’s Talk Loyalty is very much supporting the Epsilon Loyalty Labs workshop and encouraging everyone to just, I suppose, raise their hand and, you know, I suppose enter, you know, a contest for the opportunity to work with you guys in this, I suppose, incredibly valuable type of strategic work perhaps for, you know, a day out of the office.

PAULA: So maybe tell us a bit about this opportunity for people who are not yet working with you.

BRAD: Yeah, so we would like to, we’re putting together a contest that, you know, I believe you can go to the Let’s Talk Loyalty website to enter for that contest.

BRAD: And, you know, we’ll be selecting winners who will have the opportunity to spend an entire day with an Epsilon Loyalty consultant.

BRAD: And, you know, the primary purpose of this will be to talk about like the potential value that you could see out of a program or if you have an existing program, we’d love to take a look at it and help you come up with ways to measure the value of that program.

BRAD: We’d love to come up with some strong recommendations for how you can improve that program by the end of that workshop and help you figure out what’s the roadmap to getting all of that put together.

BRAD: And so, yes, that’s something that we’re offering, you know, this opportunity for some of your listeners to take part in these Loyalty Labs.

BRAD: And, you know, I would love to meet some new people and give them the opportunity to spend a day with one of our strategists.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: It’s an incredibly generous offer, Brad, and one I’m super excited about.

PAULA: I’ve been involved with the development of this concept, obviously, over the last number of months.

PAULA: What I’m particularly excited about, I guess, most, Brad, is, as we said, first of all, the extraordinary expertise that will be available.

PAULA: No holds barred and, you know, no sales pitch, literally just, you know, a genuine, honest sense of contribution from you guys to somebody who might need a bit of support and perspective.

PAULA: And I think we can all always use an extra bit of perspective on our program.

PAULA: So I think that’s wonderful.

PAULA: But also what I love, Brad, is this is a year long program we’re launching today.

PAULA: So every single month, there will be some wonderful company that is either considering Loyalty or reviewing Loyalty or just looking for that expertise that will get to benefit from the Epsilon Loyalty Strategy consulting team.

PAULA: So it’s the start of a long journey.

PAULA: I will make sure that all of the links are available, of course, with this show.

PAULA: But we already have a page letstalkloyalty.com as you said forward slash Epsilon.

PAULA: So I think we’ll keep everything there in terms of the competition, and people can quite simply come on and, as I said, raise their hands, let us know that they’re interested in being considered for this wonderful workshop, which I believe will be done privately for that one selected winner.

PAULA: Am I right?

BRAD: Yes, that’s correct.

BRAD: And our preference is to do it in person as well.

BRAD: Hopefully the current conditions will continue to allow us to do that.

BRAD: And so it would be an in-person session with at least one of our strategists to help you to sit down and look at your current Loyalty Strategy.

BRAD: Figure out how you prove more value from that strategy and put together some solid recommendations for you by the end of it.

PAULA: Very exciting, Brad.

PAULA: Well, listen, I wish I could be in on some of those sessions.

PAULA: I might try and piggyback on them if there’s one in Dubai.

PAULA: So hopefully over the year to come, as we said, there’ll be plenty of opportunities for us to get involved.

PAULA: So I think that’s all from my side, Brad.

PAULA: Is there anything else that you wanted to mention on today’s show before we wrap up?

BRAD: I’m not sure that I have anything else.

BRAD: I mean, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you, Paula.

BRAD: I know that we have several of our Epsilon lined up to have some interesting conversations with you over the coming months.

BRAD: And they’ll continue to talk more about this loyalty angle, this value led loyalty angle, that we’re really pushing hard at Epsilon right now.

BRAD: We believe that it’s sort of the biggest thing that our clients need from us right now, which is to identify that value they can draw from a program, helping to identify what the right kinds of values are that they can provide their customers, and improving the value at the end of the day, and then optimizing on that.

BRAD: We believe that’s something that’s been missing from the larger loyalty world for a while, and we’re really doubling down on this idea of loyalty should be a value exchange between the member and the brand.

BRAD: And it should be something that we should more easily measure and be accountable for and be able to optimize on.

BRAD: So we’re really excited about that, and a lot of us have different areas of expertise that we’d love to bring on to your show and talk to more of your listeners about.

PAULA: Totally, Brad.

PAULA: Well, as I said, the start of the next phase of a wonderful relationship with all of us.

PAULA: And yeah, I think everybody listening to this show really wants to do good work.

PAULA: And if there’s a way that Epsilon can just give some perspective, some advice, I think that will be extremely useful and valuable all around.

PAULA: So at the end of the day, we all want to have wonderful loyalty programs that are delivering for our customers.

PAULA: So with that said, I want to thank you for coming back again, Brad.

PAULA: It’s been absolutely wonderful conversation.

PAULA: Huge fan of this new project.

PAULA: So Brad Macdonald, Vice President of Loyalty Strategy at Epsilon.

PAULA: Thank you so much again from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: This show is brought to you by the Australian Loyalty Association, the leading organization for loyalty networking and education in Asia Pacific.

PAULA: Their International Virtual Loyalty Conference will take place on the 25th of August 2022.

PAULA: Register now to hear global experts discuss current trends in loyalty marketing.

PAULA: There will be fantastic networking opportunities, questions and answers, gamification and great prizes to be won.

PAULA: Visit australianloyaltyassociation.com to find out more.

PAULA: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: If you’d like us to send you the latest shows each week, simply sign up for the Let’s Talk Loyalty newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com.

PAULA: And we’ll send our best episodes straight to your inbox.

PAULA: And don’t forget that you can follow Let’s Talk Loyalty on any of your favorite podcast platforms.

PAULA: And of course, we’d love for you to share your feedback and reviews.

PAULA: Thanks again for supporting the show.