Visa’s Andy Chalcroft: Co-Brands, Loyalty Programs, and Engaging the Next Generation (#699)

Claudia: AI has this opportunity to hopefully start coming up with driving that human connection through programs where people feel seen, heard and understood to deliver better outcomes.

Claudia: The beautiful thing I think would always bring a smile to my face is I tell people I work for IGA, everyone knows their local store manager, and everyone has a story about their local store manager.

Claudia: You get bombarded with certain emails, and it’s so easy to unsubscribe.

Claudia: So how do you deliver content to your customers that they don’t unsubscribe from?

Claudia: You really need to make sure that you don’t over bombard and they’re engaging in so many different programs as it is already.

Claudia: So how do you stand out but in a unique way without constantly asking for spend?

Claudia: I would say be curious, always be curious, be authentic, but mainly curious around internal and external observations that you’re making.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is hosted by Carly Neubauer, managing director of Elevate Loyalty, an Australian based company specializing in loyalty and incentive services.

Paula: Carly is also the managing director of One Tap Group, a UK based company providing loyalty payment services.

Paula: Enjoy.

Carly: Today I am speaking with Claudia van de Tonnekreek, who has a huge wealth of experience in the industry, previously leading the Amex Rewards Program for 10 years.

Carly: Claudia is currently heading up the relaunched IGA Rewards Program for Metcash, bringing it all back to her interest in cereal boxes in her early uni days.

Carly: The new program focuses on targeted offers and cash back to supermarket customers.

Carly: Please enjoy my conversation with Claudia.

Paula: Hi, Claudia.

Carly: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Let’s Talk Loyalty TV.

Carly: It’s so fantastic to have you here today.

Claudia: Thank you, Carly.

Claudia: Thank you so much for having me.

Claudia: I’m so excited and honored to be invited to the podcast.

Claudia: So yeah, very excited about today.

Carly: So as you know, the first couple of questions we ask all of our guests is we love to ask about your favourite book, first and foremost.

Carly: So favourite loyalty book, business book or nonfiction book?

Carly: Tell us about what you love to read.

Claudia: If I have to think about one of my favourite books, definitely, I love sports.

Claudia: And one of the books that has always stand out for me is 11 Rings by Phil Jackson.

Claudia: And he has won 11 NBA championships, which is just phenomenal if you think about winning 11 NRL championships.

Claudia: And he has applied this really unique way of engaging with his team.

Claudia: So first of all, he gets to know his team and really driving that human connection and that personal understanding of what drives them.

Claudia: And then he like brings them all together around getting to do things off the field together.

Claudia: And they had to like clean up their like changing rooms and really bringing that humanity, but also the collaborative effort.

Claudia: And it’s really always brings it back to me how, you know, we show up at work and in environments to try business goals, but we all have to work together and we all have to listen and be vulnerable and being authentic.

Claudia: And so, yeah, that’s one of the best books that I’ve ever read around leadership.

Carly: Oh, I love this.

Carly: So 11 Rings by Phil Jackson.

Carly: Yeah.

Carly: And obviously, if you can lead a team and someone like Michael Jordan, you’re definitely doing well.

Claudia: I know.

Claudia: Definitely with those personalities, that will be quite challenging.

Carly: And I’m sure they love the cleaning up element of that, all experience too.

Carly: Yeah.

Claudia: Yeah, I think it’s good.

Carly: So, next, I mean, you’re highly experienced in loyalty.

Carly: You’ve been in the industry for years and years with some fabulous big brand companies and clients.

Carly: Tell us about your favorite loyalty program when you’re shopping or you’re the member yourself.

Claudia: Yeah, I’m actually not a member of myself, but I’m Dutch, so I spend a lot of my time going back to the Netherlands.

Claudia: And one of the key programs or stores really, that’s always stands out to me there is Rituals.

Claudia: They have about a thousand stores like worldwide, and they do beautiful home care and body products.

Claudia: And they have about 111 stores in the Netherlands.

Claudia: And I think for me, this program stands out because when we think about loyalty, we immediately assume it’s about earning points or earning cash.

Claudia: And this Rituals program is really around creating transformative experiences.

Claudia: And it really focuses on what relates back to the brands.

Claudia: So they’ve gone really what does what to our brand and how customers resonate with us.

Claudia: So if you have ever been to one of their stores, you’re just not even stepping into the store.

Claudia: It’s such a unique experience.

Claudia: It feels very luxury.

Claudia: They’ve got this feminine and masculine, really nicely balanced in.

Claudia: And it really, their target group is so broad.

Claudia: And it’s the perfect gifting in the Netherlands.

Claudia: And their tiers, they’ve got over 20 million shoppers.

Claudia: And their tiers are really based around getting access during the Black Friday, the Christmas, you know, getting in early before everyone else.

Claudia: You get special access just for your group of friends that you can organize.

Claudia: There is discounts on getting top-ups.

Claudia: And I just feel like they’ve really listened to their shopper.

Claudia: They’ve really listened to what their brand wants to create.

Claudia: And that is curating experiences.

Claudia: And I think they’ve done that really well in a unique way.

Carly: And their memberships, you mentioned, they’re Soulmates, is that correct?

Claudia: Yes, yeah.

Carly: Yeah, I love this name.

Carly: And it’s definitely such an engaging program.

Carly: But like you said, this prestige, beautiful feeling, whether it’s online in store and what they’re doing with their membership, even naming, feels to become a member.

Claudia: Yeah, and being rewarded with more products and free, kind of like, probably like Mecca, but in a different way of not being able to get points and just getting more probably food for into the store.

Claudia: So yeah, very cool experience and good program.

Carly: Fantastic.

Carly: So your background, we did mention, you’re highly experienced in this industry.

Carly: Let’s talk about you and how did you start out in Loyalty?

Claudia: Well, how I started out in Loyalty actually goes a long way back.

Claudia: As I mentioned, I’m Dutch, but I ended up studying, doing a degree and bachelor’s in marketing in London.

Claudia: And the reason I really wanted to study marketing was actually because I was always intrigued how people made shopping decisions based on cereal.

Claudia: For some reason, the cereal aisle just always got my attention.

Claudia: Like there’s so many products and how do they choose?

Claudia: So I was always very interested in the behavioral psychology behind it.

Claudia: And I just, yeah, I just thought it was really cool.

Claudia: So I ended up studying in London and actually ended up doing my thesis on understanding loyalty drivers between leisure and corporate guests at the Morgan’s Hotel Group.

Claudia: Because at the time I was working as a student in the Sanderson Hotel.

Claudia: And so I really wanted to understand, like, why do people come back?

Claudia: And what is the difference being in the heart of London?

Claudia: So that’s really how my passion for loyalty came to life.

Claudia: And I think, you know, fast forward, I ended up moving to Australia and did my masters here in Australia and landed a job in Torch Media, which actually now is known as kind of like, you know, they were the retail media of now.

Claudia: And so they did a lot of work in that.

Claudia: And then I ended up tipping my toes into Woolworths for a little bit for two years and ended up at American Express, where I led the merchant marketing.

Claudia: But I was obviously also always interested into the points and understanding the wheel of like what keeps MX alive.

Claudia: So I worked really hard internally to network to get myself a place in that team.

Claudia: So I ended up working in the membership rewards team, which was yeah, really amazing experience, very challenging.

Claudia: And, but it just really resonated with me a lot.

Claudia: And then I ended up moving to Gradify, which was also obviously, as you know, very well yourself, a Creates Loyalty program.

Claudia: So that was a unique experience.

Claudia: But I think my passion has always been back to the serial boxes.

Claudia: And so when Fiona reached out about a role at Metcash, relaunching the IGA Rewards program, that was obviously a no brainer for me to get back into the FMCG.

Claudia: So yeah, that’s really how I ended up in Loyalty.

Claudia: And I love it.

Claudia: I think, yeah, I think it’s a great industry to work in and very diverse.

Carly: And going right back to when you mentioned around that the consumer, the psychology and the behavioral decision-making piece of loyalty, that in itself, it’s such an interesting topic, but it really drives the full why behind any program in market or non-program, the loyalty experience.

Carly: So that’s obviously such a great starting point.

Carly: If you’re personally finding that so interesting, it drives the full energy through the process.

Claudia: Yeah, and I think throughout the years, I’ve kind of been able to develop a bit of a framework in how loyalty programs work.

Claudia: And if I think about loyalty programs and how it all works, so for me, it’s like, you know, set up the brands and your shopper needs, and the customer needs to know the brand.

Claudia: And then the second layer on top of that is really the retailers, the trust between the retailer or the storefront on the online store and the customer, there needs to be this fundamental trust so they continue shopping.

Claudia: And on top of that layer is obviously the shopper experience, it’s like, do they like it?

Claudia: So I like the shopper experience, it’s simple, it’s easy.

Claudia: And I really think that when I look at programs myself, I really look at it in terms of, are we touching on all these three levels to create transformative experiences rather than transactional experiences and there’s so much depth and yeah, there’s so much variety and loyalty and it’s great to see that it’s becoming way more integrated in many marketing teams and it doesn’t just sit on the side anymore, which has been a journey.

Carly: Yes, I think you’re right and you would have seen that throughout your career, that real blend and merge of loyalty moving into whether it’s the technology, finance, marketing departments and really integrated versus a siloed separate division or program.

Claudia: Yes, 100%.

Claudia: Yeah.

Carly: So for anyone who may not know of Metcash, the stores and then the program, give us a little intro around what is the store network like if I wasn’t from here and I had no idea.

Claudia: So yeah, IGA is a part of the Metcash organization and IGA is an independent retailer.

Claudia: So there are over 1100 stores.

Claudia: So very different than when you think about McDonald’s or IKEA, which are all franchises and there’s a lot more control from head office.

Claudia: And IGA is the independence and it’s really beautiful because there’s so much heart in it.

Claudia: And I’ve traveled, I’ve been very fortunate enough to go around the country and meet with a lot of the retailers and, you know, on a Monday I see them in their have trucks moving things.

Claudia: And then the next day they’re rocking up in their suit to talk about all things bought.

Claudia: And it really, it just makes you feel good to be able to go to work knowing that you’re going to be helping those independent guys.

Claudia: And it is also a bit of a challenge because we have just relaunched our program on the 28th of April.

Claudia: And we continue with our member specials in store, but we have also now done cash back.

Claudia: So to just to be a little bit more disruptive and steering away from the points and really driving that value back and showing the game changing power of locals.

Claudia: We wanted to make sure that we were a little bit different in our program.

Claudia: And so with the cash back, you get that untargeted offers into your app and you will be able to access it in any participating stores.

Claudia: So it’s been really nice and great to see that come to life.

Claudia: And for us, it’s been, when I talked about the three levels, one of our levels really obviously the brand we own and that’s what we represent, but we also need to build the trust of the retailer.

Claudia: And then we have the shopper because the way the business is set up, we ask them and we work with them on making sure that they support the program.

Claudia: But unlike our competitors, where you have the option to get to the front of the store staff and educating for us, that works a little bit different, but that’s really grows the opportunity and also make sure that the retailer is back the program.

Claudia: And yeah, I think the beautiful thing, I think what always brings a smile to my face is when I ask, you know, when I tell people I work for IGA, everyone knows their local store manager and everyone has a story about their local store manager.

Claudia: And I think that really sets us apart from any shopping experience because they really drive that heart back into the stores.

Carly: Well, it’s a great point you make because while it is a big national brand as such, franchise model, but a nationally known supermarket chain, it is that real local feel, an individual local feel.

Carly: So as you said, consumers may very likely know exactly who they’re seeing to buy from that day, who the buyers are, who the owner is, who the manager is.

Carly: So that’s a really nice personal feel.

Claudia: Yeah.

Claudia: And also you have your standard supplier products, but they also independently, they work with local grocers, they work with their local bakers.

Claudia: So there is that, you know, they support their local communities and there’s so much for a shopper that lives in that local area, it feels like coming home back into your store because there’s all these familiar products and feeling good about supporting the locals in the area.

Carly: So before you decided to engage in a new program across the stores, what was in place before that?

Carly: Was there anything there?

Carly: Was this complete green fields?

Carly: Or tell us pre and then we’ll talk post.

Claudia: Yeah, so before that we had our IGA Rewards program into the stores and that launched about five years ago where you would get member specials and you will be able to be eligible for competitions.

Claudia: But because traditionally programs are really about points or cash back, we needed to come up with a way that we had supplier funded office building.

Claudia: And so we consulted a lot of people to understand what was the best thing to do and we came up with cash back.

Claudia: But it has been around, we had to do a lot of changes because we are an independent network.

Claudia: There were about 16 point of sale systems and to get data in from 16 points is let’s say a bit of a nightmare.

Claudia: So we’ve been able to reduce that down to eight and that’s been really transformative for our business to really understand what the shopper behavior is like and what they like and what they do.

Claudia: We really needed to, the industries and all industries we talk about data, but data is really important when you want to service your customers with offers to make sure that they’re relevant and personalized.

Claudia: So we really needed to do a lot of work on that to make sure that with the supplier funding in there, we were actually getting the cost for redemptions and the ROI making that happen.

Claudia: So yeah, it’s been a real journey, but really excited to see the life now with all the media and the engagement from the stores.

Claudia: We’ve got ambassadors in stores to help the store owners to help sell the program, to get the acquisition through the door.

Claudia: And yeah, it’s really great to see this come to life now.

Carly: And I remember throughout, I mean, you did a lot of work, not only in the design, implementation, but the communication, but also engagement with franchisees.

Carly: I mean, yourself, you did an enormous roadshow to make sure that you personally went around the country introducing and talking to people about the program.

Carly: Tell us about that.

Claudia: Yeah, so because they’re also independent, so we have channel standards as a business, but it’s not like as a McDonald’s you go into the same, so we really needed to take them on that education journey and also really explaining the value of the program for them because that’s really obviously really important to them.

Claudia: So we have autumn and spring meetings, so we have the opportunity to take them and update them on what is going on in the wider business and then obviously also as a part of the marketing, I was representing everything loyalty, so I took them through really the early stages of what the program was like, what we really wanted them to focus on, like the acquisition, scanning of the cards, really making sure that they understood what we were asking from them, but also how we were backing it.

Claudia: Because when we launched the original program, we never did any above the line media.

Claudia: And so it was really important to be able to share with them.

Claudia: We’re backing this and we’re going in and we really feel that this is the best strategic move for us all together.

Claudia: So let’s go in together.

Claudia: And so I took them through the media plan and really driving that engagement with them.

Claudia: And there’s been great feedback and I’m about to go on round two and just to share the results.

Claudia: So really great that in March I had the opportunity to take them off, you know, come with us along this journey and now I will be able to share some of the incredible results with them and continue to talk about how we’re getting summer ready and what we’re going to be doing from a media perspective to continue to drive this.

Carly: That’s fantastic.

Carly: And such a, like a personalized approach, but not in the normal way we talk about personalization for the member you’re talking about engaging with internal partners, the franchisees.

Claudia: Yeah.

Claudia: And yeah, I think, sorry, yeah, I think for us, the retailers equally as important as the shopper.

Claudia: We really need to drive that relationship.

Claudia: And from that, the, you know, the shopper will always chase value and will always chase, especially in this environment.

Claudia: So they will always come at the value of this.

Claudia: But being able to deliver a simple and easy to understand program was really important to be able to get this across.

Carly: Absolutely.

Carly: Well, it’s like taking into consideration all the stakeholders in the, in the, in the whole program.

Carly: Any key challenges, any tricky things that you came across?

Claudia: I think one of the trickiest things was probably, was the retailer part, making sure that they, educating their, their staff, because obviously we talk to the retailer, but they have a lot of staff, weekend staff, day staff.

Claudia: And for us, I think the challenge was, how do we make sure that at the checkout, they’re equally as educated on the program.

Claudia: When a shopper gets into the store and sees our media on TV or on out of home, you know, how does that translate into a store environment that they get asked about their, their, rewards card or they be able to explain that card.

Claudia: So we had, I think, about 15 training sessions a week at different times where team members from head office would jump on and will be able, was able to educate stores and their store staff.

Claudia: So that was probably one of the biggest challenges we faced because there’s a lot of things you can come up with from your seat.

Claudia: But how does that actually play out in action sometimes is a bit different.

Carly: And I’d say anyone that’s experienced or worked within in loyalty and retail would understand that challenge that it’s the store manager or franchisee, the owner, but also then a huge number of store staff that need to understand the program, know about it, promote it, ask the customer, engage, et cetera.

Carly: So good job, really good job.

Carly: Thank you.

Carly: No doubt they’ll enjoy hearing some good results when you go on the next world tour, shall we call it?

Claudia: Yeah, definitely in Australia.

Carly: Good, good.

Carly: So anything you’d like to tell us around what’s coming next or will that be a wait and see?

Claudia: That will be a wait and see for now.

Carly: Cool, very cool.

Carly: What about the industry itself?

Carly: You have a huge amount of experience.

Carly: You’ve been in loyalty across a range of different industries also and engaged in a lot of different programs personally and professionally.

Carly: What are some of the big things you’re seeing industry wide that you see as game changers or things we should be watching in the next 6 to 12 months?

Claudia: That’s a really good question.

Claudia: I think it’s hard not to answer this question with AI.

Claudia: I feel like that’s really the buzzword of this moment.

Claudia: So I think, how do we use, I’m interested to see how other companies are going to use AI and data better to deliver better outcomes and higher, lower the cost per acquisition, get better deals for shoppers or customers.

Claudia: I think, how do you maintain that human connection for someone that’s using your program to feel, oh, they’re getting me and they’re understanding me and they’re being served with the right office at the right time.

Claudia: I think we all know data and I think sometimes it can feel like, okay, I’m just a tick on the list and I just need to get this done.

Claudia: But I think AI has this opportunity to hopefully start coming up with driving that human connection through programs where people feel seen, heard and understood to deliver better outcomes.

Claudia: Yeah, so I’m really interested and keen to see how that’s gonna evolve.

Claudia: And if programs are becoming simpler, I think, you know, we obviously just went to the ALA and I think when we talked to there, it was a lot about simple and I think we overcomplicate things a lot.

Claudia: And I think we need to keep really in mind that shoppers get so many messages and they’re on their phone, they’re shopping at the same time and they’re distracted.

Claudia: So for us, it sounds simple, but I think you need to almost place yourself in the shoes of a customer that’s doing 10 things at the same time and making sure that it’s still simple.

Carly: Yes, gosh, absolutely.

Claudia: Yeah.

Carly: In your experience even more recently with the current program you’re working with, what would be your best comms tool?

Carly: Are you finding a particular channel that is the most effective for you and your members?

Claudia: Yeah, so I think we obviously store.

Claudia: Store is really important right at the point of purchase.

Claudia: And the challenge is because the office are targeted, so we can’t do a price promotion in store because they’re obviously super targeted office.

Claudia: But I think one of our biggest channels is obviously having a store staff member to ask, are you a rewards member?

Claudia: Are you not?

Claudia: Do you want to sign up because you can get cash back?

Claudia: So that’s probably our biggest owned channel, I think.

Claudia: But if I think about other channels, it’s probably we just had our media report back and it is still actually the social media.

Claudia: People spend a lot of social media.

Claudia: So having short reels on there to really bring that home, that’s probably the best channel for us to use right now.

Carly: Yeah, absolutely.

Carly: And I understand you have a new app also with the program.

Claudia: Yes.

Claudia: Yes.

Claudia: So we have the IGA Rewards app and so everything that we do drives it back to the app because that’s how we target you with the offers.

Claudia: Obviously we have push notifications as well, but that’s really, yeah, you need to be able to have the app, otherwise you won’t be able to participate in the program, which is like most programs.

Carly: That’s totally, yeah, fair enough, fair enough.

Carly: So room for improvement, what would you say you can see for our industry?

Carly: Biggest room for improvement, what should we be looking at?

Claudia: I think looking at the life cycle comps, I think does the communication make sense?

Claudia: I think again, a lot of, you get bombarded with certain emails and it’s so easy to unsubscribe.

Claudia: So how do you deliver content to your customers that they don’t unsubscribe from?

Claudia: I think that’s the biggest because as soon as they’ve unsubscribed, they’re lost.

Claudia: I sign up when I buy things myself and I sign up, and then sometimes within the space of three days, I get bombarded with emails and I’m unsubscribed because I’m like, It’s a fine line.

Carly: It’s a good balance again.

Claudia: Yeah.

Claudia: I haven’t even tried your product yet and you’re already asking me to buy something more.

Claudia: I think really thinking about not overloading and sometimes less is really more.

Claudia: So I think that’s really one of the things that I think there should be a bit more focus on.

Carly: Fair enough.

Carly: I agree.

Carly: That’s a real fine line between the level of communication.

Carly: I’m sure all loyalty professionals face this is how much is the right amount, measuring the right amount.

Carly: And as you just said, the minute someone unsubscribes you, it’s a huge challenge.

Carly: Yeah, they’re gone, they’re gone, they’re gone, they’re gone.

Carly: So what I’d love to ask you next is if we did the good, the bad, the ugly, what would be your really big tickets?

Carly: What’s the program outside of the rituals that you think, hey, look, they’re doing a great job or they’re bringing AI in, or you just think they’re doing a really good job at the moment?

Claudia: I really like Bonds.

Claudia: Good call.

Claudia: Which is like, yeah, I actually really like the Bonds program.

Claudia: When I go into, when I went into their store, it was a really easy, simple experience.

Claudia: I think they execute really well.

Claudia: They don’t bombard you with too many things.

Claudia: The offers are rich, so as a customer, you feel very valued and they instantly give you $5 off, off your purchase.

Claudia: And yeah, it’s just a really seamless experience.

Claudia: So I think in Australia, that one really does it well from a custom experience perspective.

Carly: Yeah.

Carly: I love it.

Carly: I agree.

Carly: And even the last few years overhaul, et cetera, it’s been phenomenal.

Carly: They’ve done a really, really good job.

Claudia: Yeah.

Carly: Looking forward to seeing where they go in the next coming few years.

Carly: What about something do you think, hey, our industry, not so great.

Carly: We all need to focus on, look out and maybe overhaul in the next 12 to 24 months.

Carly: What would you call out?

Claudia: I think complex programs.

Claudia: I think when you’re asking too much from your shoppers and to ask them too often to engage with it.

Claudia: So like, if you’re asking your office to activate or really asking too many things of them.

Claudia: And I think it’s really hard obviously from a loyalty program, you need to make sure you’ve got the redemptions and you need shoppers to engage with your program.

Claudia: But I think there needs to be a bit of a balance so that they don’t always feel like they have to go into the app to be able to be rewarded.

Claudia: So I think over complexity can be quite challenging.

Claudia: I think that’s, yeah, that’s happening.

Carly: Absolutely.

Carly: And the frequency point, as you said, is what is that expectation?

Carly: How much are we really expecting people to either engage or shop, interact in different comms methods?

Carly: That there’s only so much everyone can tolerate as a consumer.

Claudia: Yeah.

Claudia: And people are, I think, stats are about nine to ten programs per person that they’re engaging with.

Claudia: So you really need to make sure that you don’t over bombard and they’re engaging in so many different programs as it is already.

Claudia: So how do you stand out but in a unique way without constantly asking for spend?

Claudia: I think especially in this environment, people are very cautious of what they’re spending.

Carly: Absolutely.

Carly: If you were to talk to someone starting out of the industry or new to the space, what’s some advice you would give either a younger self, younger self of you or a new person coming through?

Claudia: I would say be curious, always be curious, be authentic, but mainly curious around internal and external observations that you’re making.

Claudia: Think when you get into a company, I mean, I was at MX for 10 years, you become so focused what is happening inside, and you work on your internal network and you continue to work.

Claudia: But I think that outs external perspective is so important for the brand, for the business and more importantly, for your own development and your career.

Claudia: So I think continue to network even though sometimes you don’t enjoy it, but there’s always good, you’re going to be able to learn from those events, and that would probably be the key advice for sure.

Carly: Well, it sounds like you were of a similar mindset years ago with your asking why people were buying a certain cereal.

Carly: You’ve always been curious.

Claudia: Yeah, I’ve always wondered why.

Claudia: What’s the why behind this?

Carly: What’s the why?

Carly: What’s the perfect mindset for loyalty and understanding why people operate the way they do or engage the way they do in our space?

Carly: That’s for sure.

Claudia: Yeah.

Carly: Any last tips or hints before we say a big thank you for your time?

Claudia: No, I just I’m really excited to see what’s happening in the industry.

Claudia: I love being a part of the loyalty industry.

Claudia: I think it’s great when everyone comes together and hearing the challenges and the opportunities that we’re all facing.

Claudia: And I love how everyone is obsessed with loyalty.

Claudia: I think we’re all trying to, you know, game the systems and understand them.

Claudia: And I think that’s the beauty of this industry.

Claudia: And we are equally a part of giving and receiving of loyalty programs.

Claudia: So, yeah, I love it.

Carly: Yeah, I think you’re exactly right.

Carly: Because we can be a professional or, you know, work within the industry, but also be the consumer every day almost, if you wanted to.

Carly: You live it and breathe it because you operate on both sides, right?

Claudia: Yeah, 100%.

Carly: Well, Claudia, it was so, so lovely to have you on the show.

Carly: And thank you, thank you for your time.

Carly: It was great to chat.

Claudia: Thank you so much, Carly.

Claudia: It was really great.

Claudia: And thank you so much for having me.

Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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