Lisa Brightwell from Bright Insights Consulting Joins the LTL / LTV Hosting Team (#694)

Paula: First of all, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty for your final time as a guest and your first time announcing to be a host.

Lisa: Really happy to be here, so thank you so much, Paula.

Lisa: I spent a lot of time in the Middle East with Marriott.

Lisa: Store Madinat Jumeirah had been built, and I thought to myself, who’s this Jumeirah company?

Lisa: These guys look pretty fancy.

Lisa: And I think I remember picking up the phone and asking to speak to the marketing director, because I was like, well, I’m in hospitality, this looks pretty cool.

Lisa: I’m young, I’d like to work here, let’s see what happens.

Lisa: And then I think two weeks later, I moved to Dubai and I had a job in the loyalty department at Jumeirah Hotels.

Lisa: Ten years in to Bright Insights, I would never have dreamed that we would become a company and become successful in the way we have.

Lisa: And I have the most incredible team.

Paula: Saudi Arabia is a country that I think a lot of our audience are very unfamiliar with, and yet there’s extraordinary work that you’re doing there, that that country is doing to really reinvent itself.

Paula: So if you don’t mind, I’d love to just maybe talk a little bit about the Middle East loyalty profile.

Paula: What are you seeing in terms of trends for programs?

Lisa: Saudi for me is also very different to the UAE.

Lisa: They’re obviously not as mature yet in terms of the penetration of number of programs.

Lisa: What I like about the Saudi market is they’re kind of saying, you know, we know we’re a little bit behind in terms of loyalty, but that’s no problem.

Lisa: That means we’ve got a white paper to just do it really well.

Lisa: What should we do?

Paula: I’ve always admired your work and, you know, just wanted time and attention with you.

Paula: But tell us a bit about why do you want to be a host of Let’s Talk Loyalty?

Paula: And what can we, I suppose, expect to hear from you?

Paula: What are you hoping to bring into our guests on the show?

Lisa: I think that hosting the show will be great for me to kind of put me out of my comfort zone.

Lisa: And I think it’s important in order to grow, you need to go outside your comfort zone.

Lisa: But also I do love talking to people.

Lisa: And I think I’m really excited to, and I alluded to this earlier as well, is bringing on some of the people that I have been working with, certainly in the data side of things, and to help the audience understand why we choose to work with specialists in data in the underlying principles of building a loyalty strategy.

Lisa: We do that at the foundation.

Lisa: So I have some really interesting conversations lined up with some of my colleagues.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights for loyalty marketing specialists around the world.

Paula: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Paula: It’s Paula Thomas here and I’m delighted to be today chatting with Lisa Brightwell, the founder and managing director of Bright Insights Consulting, a boutique loyalty consultancy firm based here in the UAE.

Paula: Bright Insights is a renowned consulting firm who are designing, building and running loyalty programs for some of the best known and most respected brands in this region.

Paula: In today’s episode, we’re announcing Lisa as our latest host of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Paula: And throughout our conversation, you’ll hear the extraordinary expertise that Lisa will be sharing with you every month, including her own insights, insights from her guests and her extended team of industry experts.

Paula: I hope you enjoy today’s conversation with Lisa Brightwell from Bright Insights Consulting.

Paula: Lisa Brightwell, my dear friend, joining me today again as a guest on Let’s Talk Loyalty, and certainly not for the first time, but a very exciting opportunity today to talk about you becoming part of the extended Let’s Talk Loyalty family as a host of our show.

Paula: So first of all, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty for your final time as a guest and your first time announcing to be a host.

Lisa: Thank you very much.

Lisa: Thank you from what I wish was a sunny Spain, but a very rainy Spain, but nonetheless, really happy to be here.

Lisa: So thank you so much, Paula.

Paula: Fantastic, fantastic.

Paula: Well, listen, it is very sweaty in Dubai, so I’m glad you’re getting to enjoy the weather in Europe, and I certainly hope to do the same very soon myself.

Paula: So let’s get into the conversation, Lisa.

Paula: As I said, we’re here to talk about your extraordinary career, creating Bright Insights Consulting, lots of lessons in loyalty, some of the trends that you’re seeing, I guess, particularly here in the UAE and in other markets in the Middle East.

Paula: But before we even talk about loyalty, as you know, we have a favorite new opening question, which is all about trying to understand you a little bit as a leader and as a human being.

Paula: And we all love to get inspiration from time to time from other sources like nonfiction books.

Paula: So let’s kick off this interview and tell us, Lisa Brightwell, what is a book that has really had a big impact on you as a leader in loyalty?

Lisa: So the book I chose, Paula, is a book called The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari.

Lisa: And I think forever this book will be very important to me because I think I read it at a time in my career where everything was really busy.

Lisa: I was very stressed out trying to climb that corporate ladder and working 16-hour days.

Lisa: And it became, my life became about work.

Lisa: And this is a really beautiful book that kind of takes things back to values and mindset and puts things into perspective and helps you think about how actually you create growth by balance.

Lisa: And it kind of, I read the book.

Lisa: I went away for a weekend.

Lisa: One of my friends asked me to come visit her in the Maldives and she worked there.

Lisa: And I read this book.

Lisa: And I think from that moment onwards, my mindset was like, you know what?

Lisa: Actually, you know, there can be balance and you can be successful with balance.

Lisa: And it’s important to take care of myself.

Lisa: And then if I take care of myself, then I’ll actually be a better employee as well.

Lisa: And so whenever I’m feeling a bit stressed, I always remind myself of the principles of this book and how to take stock and actually, you know, remind myself of what’s important and create that balance.

Lisa: And I think throwing kids into the mix has also, you know, makes me remind myself all the time to go back to that book.

Lisa: But yeah, it’s a book that I’ll never forget because it came at a point in my career that I really needed it.

Lisa: And now it’s kind of given me that kind of grounding when I need it to kind of reflect back on it.

Paula: Yeah, yeah, I love that, Lisa.

Paula: I think it’s one of those books.

Paula: And I have actually read that one.

Paula: The topic is really meaningful.

Paula: And again, they say when the student is ready, the teacher does appear.

Paula: And for me, also for sure, there are certain books like that that really showed up when I was struggling with something and had no idea what the answer might be.

Paula: And even though the name of that book makes no sense, The Monk That Saves Ferrari, it’s kind of like, I have no idea what that book is going to be about.

Paula: But I think people recommend that particular one to each other.

Paula: I know it has sold millions of copies.

Paula: So yeah, sounds like one that you could literally read like year after year and still get something out of it every time.

Lisa: And it’s not that big, actually, it’s quite thin.

Lisa: And I’ve read mine so much, all the pages fill out.

Lisa: So I have to fold it and think about the other.

Lisa: But yeah, it definitely is.

Lisa: And I think it actually is about a guy who had a heart attack.

Lisa: He’s a lawyer who had a heart attack.

Lisa: His life was so stressful and busy, and he traveled around India and ended up studying with these monks.

Lisa: And they taught him a whole different mindset.

Lisa: And so it’s about the guy who had the Ferrari, but he sold the Ferrari, sold all of his belongings and went back to what’s important in life.

Lisa: And so that’s where the monk who sold his Ferrari, that’s where the title came from.

Lisa: But yeah, it’s a good book.

Paula: It’s amazing.

Paula: Absolutely.

Paula: And actually, I’m going to give a shout out, Lisa, just as an aside for anybody listening today who loves these book recommendations, because loads of people have said to me that they might be perhaps driving when they’re listening to the podcast, or might not be able to write down the title.

Paula: So just for the audience, if you’re listening today, we always put our book recommendations from our guests in our show notes.

Paula: So you can always go back to this episode, for example, with Lisa, and it’ll be linked directly there.

Paula: So a shout out to our loyal listener, Charles in Brisbane, who asked me to mention that on air, just to make sure that people know how to buy these books.

Paula: So there you go.

Paula: You’ve been helpful already.

Paula: Yeah.

Lisa: Well done, Charles.

Lisa: Yeah.

Lisa: Good idea.

Paula: There you go.

Paula: Brilliant.

Paula: So let’s talk about you, Lisa.

Paula: You have been on the show twice before.

Paula: I was looking back on the dates.

Paula: It was back in April 2021.

Paula: I remember we did our first episode together, talking about emerging technologies.

Paula: I remember very well.

Paula: And then a year and a half ago, January 2024, you were on one of our very early episodes of Loyalty TV here in our Dubai studio.

Paula: So here we are releasing another episode.

Paula: We’re just coming into August 2025, but plenty of people, I guess, listening today might not have heard your backstory.

Paula: So take us back to, in fact, a very original, I suppose, love of loyalty back in your university days and how you’ve got to where you are today.

Lisa: Yeah.

Lisa: And it’s interesting.

Lisa: Who would have thought a subject matter I chose at university would end up in my career?

Lisa: But clearly I always had a passion for, or an interest, shall I say, in loyalty programs.

Lisa: And how does a brand get a customer to do something by giving them something like miles or points?

Lisa: And so it is true, I did my university dissertation on loyalty programs, and it was entitled, Do Loyalty Programs Really Drive Loyalty?

Lisa: And I think my conclusion was a yes and a no kind of response.

Lisa: They do and they don’t.

Lisa: So I think people, my conclusion was something like people are loyal to many, so it’s not that they’re loyal to one, but loyalty programs do work in driving loyalty with the programs people are engaged in, but people can engage with many.

Lisa: And so, yeah, I was very interested in that.

Lisa: And I remember, I’m not young anymore, so I do remember going down to Heathrow with a clipboard and pen and stopping people outside of Terminal 1 and asking them questions about their travel behaviors in the rain, all in the pursuit of research.

Lisa: So yeah, it started then.

Lisa: And my passion has actually always been hospitality.

Lisa: I wanted to work in hospitality since I was probably about nine years old.

Lisa: I lived in America when I was younger, and we ended up staying in a lot of hotels before we settled in into our home.

Lisa: And so I just loved being in a hotel, and the hotel front desk staff would invite me in to help people check in, and the chef would make me cookies.

Lisa: And so I really fell in love with this idea of hospitality.

Lisa: So when I finished university, I went in to travel.

Lisa: I actually worked at British Airways first, in their Loyalty program.

Lisa: Having done my dissertation, I thought I should go and work for a Loyalty program.

Lisa: Worked in British Airways, but my passion was really getting in to hotels.

Lisa: And so luckily I ended up with this dream job at Marriott very early on in my career, and started there, not in Loyalty actually, I was in the sales and marketing department looking after Marriott’s participation at trade shows, but it was a great entry into hospitality, and that kind of started a career for me in the industry.

Lisa: I spent a lot of time in the Middle East with Marriott.

Lisa: Store Madinat Jumeirah had been built, and I thought to myself, who’s this Jumeirah company?

Lisa: These guys look pretty fancy, you know?

Lisa: This Virgil Lara looks amazing.

Lisa: And so I stayed in house at El Casta when it opened.

Lisa: And I think I remember picking up the phone and asking to speak to the marketing director, because I was like, well, I’m in hospitality.

Lisa: This looks pretty cool.

Lisa: I’m young.

Lisa: I’d like to work here.

Lisa: Let’s see what happens.

Lisa: And then I think two weeks later, I moved to Dubai and I had a job in the loyalty department at Jumeirah Hotel.

Lisa: So it was literally like that.

Lisa: It was two weeks after I picked up the phone.

Lisa: So, you know, and it kind of speaks to go chasing your dreams.

Lisa: Just, you know, not worrying about what people think.

Lisa: Just pick up the phone and ask.

Lisa: I picked up the phone, I asked and got a job.

Lisa: And so I worked in loyalty with Jumeirah for a good four years in the loyalty program.

Lisa: And then actually it was an interesting role because I looked after strategic partnerships for Jumeirah.

Lisa: And so that was a lot of the frequent flyer programs.

Lisa: So I think we had 18 airline partners at that point.

Lisa: So signing all the contracts for frequent flyer programs with the Jumeirah program at the time.

Lisa: But then we also managed any partner with the brand.

Lisa: So it wasn’t just loyalty.

Lisa: It ended up being partnerships with Visa, American Express, brand partners.

Lisa: So anything that added value to the company, it’s the logo.

Lisa: So it was a great role.

Lisa: Loved that.

Lisa: But then I got headhunted to go to EMAR to do their loyalty program.

Lisa: So EMAR, for the listeners that don’t know, is a big company out in the UAE that has shopping malls at the time, had education, had health care, hotels and property development.

Lisa: And so they wanted a loyalty program.

Lisa: So I was headhunted by EMAR with the purpose to head up brand and marketing for them, but also to drive the loyalty and gift card strategy, which I did for again another three, four years.

Lisa: And loved a great job, great company as well, great experience, I should say.

Lisa: I don’t think I’ve had any regrets in my career.

Lisa: Everything I’ve done, whether you felt like you enjoyed it at the time or not, you’ve learned something from.

Lisa: And so it’s enriched me in ways that I would never change.

Lisa: Continue to work in hotels, work for a more living company for a while.

Lisa: And then I guess 11 years ago, actually 12 years ago, next week, I had my first child, my son Josh.

Lisa: And I think a lot of women of my age who have had a career and then have children will relate to what I’m going to say.

Lisa: I was wholly unprepared for the shift of being a professional working career woman and all of a sudden having a baby.

Lisa: And I think some people finish work and they take care of their kids and hats off to them, because it is one of the hardest jobs in the world.

Lisa: And if you want to stay in the career, hats off to you too.

Lisa: It’s also very difficult.

Lisa: And I’m not going to lie, I found that balance very difficult.

Lisa: And I actually went back to work with Matt for Marriott at the time.

Lisa: I was heading up Marriott Awards and Ritz-Carlton Rewards programs for the Middle East and Africa.

Paula: Yeah.

Lisa: And a great program, obviously.

Lisa: Love the company, but I struggled mentally with not being the best mother I wanted to be, and not being the employee I knew I could be as well, because I had to balance the two.

Lisa: Leaving early at six o’clock, because I had to pick up my son from nursery, not wanting to travel, because I was feeling guilty in my mind.

Lisa: You know, gosh, I’ve got a baby at home, but I’m going to ask to go to Washington.

Lisa: So, Marriott, I have to say props to Marriott, because I ended up going to Marriott and saying, listen, I can’t do this, I’m really sorry.

Lisa: I’ve made a mistake.

Lisa: I shouldn’t do this job, because I need to take better care of my son.

Lisa: And they were amazing.

Lisa: They just basically said, why don’t you become a consultant for us?

Lisa: Don’t worry.

Lisa: We’ll, you can become a consultant.

Lisa: You don’t have to travel.

Lisa: You can stay locally.

Lisa: And I worked for Marriott for four years on kind of really regional-based loyalty strategies and initiatives that they were trying to get off the ground locally in the region.

Lisa: And so that was really how Bright Insights started.

Lisa: And I have to thank Marriott for that, because I set up a consulting firm to be able to consult for Marriott so that I could have the balance, having been a mother and a working professional.

Lisa: And then that’s 10 years ago, last February, the Bright Insights was formed off the back of Marriott, suggesting I be a consultant for them instead.

Lisa: So yeah, it’s been a journey.

Paula: It’s been a roller coaster, Lisa, and honestly, it’s a credit to you.

Paula: All of us who know you, first of all, will not be surprised to hear that you had that conflict and made that decision, because at the end of the day, Josh, the most important person in your life and had to be as your brand new baby.

Paula: And yes, you’re also an amazing business woman.

Paula: So it’s impossible to choose between those two things and feel like you’re doing both of them well.

Paula: So fair play to you for being brave enough to say, I’m choosing my child and fair play to Mariette, as you said, for saying there’s another way to solve this.

Paula: So I think we both agree that the universe does conspire to get us to where we need to be.

Paula: And it certainly feels like that’s what happens in that instance.

Lisa: Yeah, and you know, I’ve always been one of these people that follows the path in front of them and tries to embrace it, good or bad, because I feel like whatever that path is, it’s got a meaning for me.

Lisa: Sounds very philosophical, but I do believe that.

Lisa: And you know, 10 years in to Bright Insights, I would never have dreamed that we would become a company and become successful in the way we have.

Lisa: And I have the most incredible team.

Lisa: And we achieve the most amazing things together.

Lisa: And I’m immensely proud of that.

Lisa: We just recently, like I said, in February, celebrated our 10 year.

Lisa: And it was a very emotional moment for me, because it was very organic, this decision to become a consultant.

Lisa: There’s a lot of learning.

Lisa: And you go through ups and downs of COVID, of different scenarios that kind of test your resolve.

Lisa: And yeah, and I’m very proud.

Lisa: We have a great team.

Lisa: We work very hard.

Lisa: We work with some tier one, tier two companies.

Lisa: I never thought that would happen.

Lisa: I thought a little small boutique agency would tend to kind of have very small clients.

Lisa: But actually, we’ve done such great work.

Lisa: Our reputation kind of like has put us out there as a real force to be reckoned with.

Lisa: And I’m, yeah, very proud of that.

Paula: And we’re all amazed.

Paula: Honestly, as you said, it was emotional.

Paula: Like you wrote a fabulous post about your decade in business.

Paula: And again, it was like I was reading it, knowing you as a dear friend and going, I’m so proud of you.

Paula: And again, the fact that there are so many clients that I know for a fact will wait for Bright Insights to have consulting capacity to redesign their programs or run their programs.

Paula: So from my perspective, yeah, it’s a testament to you.

Paula: Tell us how big is your team now actually in Bright Insights because you are running some of the biggest programs in the region.

Paula: So how big is the company at this stage?

Lisa: So we are officially eight, but it’s kind of 12 of us as well.

Lisa: So how we operate as consultant, we have direct employees, but then we also have subcontracted people that we work with.

Lisa: And that’s quite common in the consulting industry because, you know, consulting can be cyclical and it can be difficult to grow.

Lisa: So we have people we work with as freelance consultants, and some of them work pretty exclusively with us.

Lisa: Albeit, maybe one other client or so.

Lisa: So a lot of their work is with us, but they are technically not subcontracted.

Lisa: And then we have partners we work with.

Lisa: So we work with some really great partners that complements the overall service offering that we deliver.

Lisa: And in fact, it’s some of those partners that I actually want to bring to my hosting in the future because some of the subject matters we’ve learned in the loyalty consulting world, some of these subject matters are really important to the overall development of a cohesive strategy.

Lisa: And by not having expertise in these areas, you’re not doing the best job or setting yourself up for success in the way you should.

Lisa: And so instead of us trying to learn some of these very kind of niche areas, we partner with Best of Breed and we have some incredible people we work with.

Lisa: And so they just compliment us and make us look really good, to be honest.

Lisa: So yeah, I’d say we’re 8 to 12, if that makes sense.

Lisa: Makes total sense.

Paula: Well, somebody asked me the same question recently, Lisa, and I told them we were two and a half people and they fell around the place laughing.

Paula: And I’m like, we have somebody part time.

Paula: That’s not that confusing.

Paula: It’s a half a person.

Paula: So that’s Eilish.

Paula: Shout out to Eilish as our half person.

Paula: But brilliant.

Paula: So I totally get the 8 to 12.

Paula: And again, as you said, big projects come.

Paula: And go.

Paula: So it’s important that you can scale up, of course, to deliver what’s needed.

Paula: I know some programs you run longer term.

Paula: Others you come and go, of course, at different phases in their growth.

Paula: But I guess we’re also in a particularly exciting part of the world, Lisa.

Paula: And, you know, anybody who knows the UAE and increasingly Saudi Arabia on the global stage.

Paula: I think what we both know, first of all, is it is a place that your dreams can come true, as proven by your phone call to the Jumeirah Group.

Paula: I mean, honestly, this is a country that values people who can get things done, like no question, particularly the UAE.

Paula: And again, Saudi Arabia is a country that I think a lot of our audience are very unfamiliar with.

Paula: And yet there’s extraordinary work that you’re doing there, that that country is doing to really reinvent itself.

Paula: So if you don’t mind, I’d love to just maybe talk a little bit about the Middle East loyalty process, the profile, any kind of thoughts.

Paula: You are absolutely, as we said, the leader here.

Paula: I know you’re running some incredibly prestigious programs and literally transforming, for example, all of our airlines, I think practically all of them.

Paula: You’ve worked with the different times in your career to help them transform, as they’ve said, from, you know, in the past being frequent flyer programs, now through to becoming everyday engagement lifestyle programs.

Paula: And you’ve, you’ve literally delivered and executed for so many of these big brands.

Paula: So it’s a long question.

Paula: But yeah, talk to us about, I’m rambling a little bit, but I do get excited because I know, you know, we can’t talk about all of the names, of course, on air, but I know what you do.

Paula: So talk to us a bit about what you’re seeing in the UAE and Saudi.

Paula: I don’t think there’s that much difference from a loyalty perspective.

Paula: But if there are, of course, let us know.

Paula: But yeah, just what are you seeing in terms of trends for programs?

Lisa: So it’s interesting for me because in the last, I say, 12 months or so, we have picked up four clients that are really looking to put together loyalty strategies, but in the luxury segment.

Lisa: And I’m talking ultra high net worth individuals who spend a lot in luxury goods, whether it’s retail, whether it’s automotive, whether it’s hospitality, but really ultra high net worth individuals.

Lisa: And so that for me has been very interesting because traditionally, yes, ultra high net worth individuals can be part of loyalty programs, but when you’re designing something in that segment, you have to really kind of think about the needs and wants of someone that could potentially have the ability to buy or have everything.

Lisa: And in the past, I think people have all looked at something like the American Express Centurion Black Card, people always talk about the black card, and that card has a symbolization of status, and it contained loads of benefits that people really enjoyed.

Lisa: But these days, those benefits are readily available in so many places.

Lisa: So a black American Express card would give you a concierge service, would give you access to the travel, the fine hotels and resorts, travel booking centers.

Lisa: You also get potentially some gifts, some surprises that look like gifts, and you get, you know, trying to think what else you get.

Lisa: But a lot of the things you get in this prestigious kind of card, specialized for high net worth individuals, you can get now in lots of places.

Lisa: A lot of people give concierge benefits, and you look at a lot of programs.

Lisa: A lot of programs are now evolving to have invitation only tiers and VIP tiers.

Lisa: I don’t know a program in Dubai that doesn’t have an IO or private hidden tier.

Lisa: And so what’s interesting for me is that people are saying, okay, in the high net worth space, we want to create a loyalty strategy.

Lisa: It doesn’t need to be transparent.

Lisa: It can be very opaque in behind the scenes, but we need a strategy.

Lisa: And then for me, what’s difficult and challenging, and I guess what we as a team are trying to solve, is how do we then create value for these individuals?

Lisa: If this individual, say, lives in Dubai and is a member of four or five programs that have an IO tier, an invitation-only tier, they’re probably getting the same benefits.

Lisa: And if you look at all the invitation-only tiers, you see a lot of the value that they’ve put out there.

Lisa: It’s all very the same.

Lisa: So how do you create that point of differentiation?

Lisa: How do you create a unique strategy in a luxury high net worth space?

Lisa: And so that we’ve been spending a lot of time working on, and actually it’s very, very interesting.

Lisa: And it comes with a lot of research.

Lisa: So we’ve been doing a lot of research about what we think people want.

Lisa: And I think, personally, I don’t think everyone agrees with me on this.

Lisa: So I’m going to put that out there now.

Lisa: But I do think that people that have a lot of money, actually, what they’re looking for are more grassroots experiences, you know, send them to a farm in Guatemala, I don’t know, helping a local village grow crops.

Lisa: Do something completely grassroots, completely, kind of, back to basics, that has, kind of, emotional and heartfelt meaning that is something that money can’t buy.

Lisa: And people talk about money can’t buy experiences all the time as well.

Lisa: But I think of it differently.

Lisa: I don’t think of it as like, oh, have an event or have an amazing experience.

Lisa: I’m thinking of how do you create something that has such meaningful heartfelt value to that individual that means that they either build a community in that space or it adds value to their life, you know?

Lisa: So I’m loving the exploration of what we can do in this space because we need to do that exploration.

Lisa: And I’ve not solved it.

Lisa: But I’ve definitely seen a trend in more brands focusing on what they can do for their ultra high network and high net worth clients.

Lisa: And so that’s been very interesting.

Lisa: I’m actually really enjoying that.

Lisa: You asked about Saudi.

Lisa: And yes, Saudi for me is also, you know, the principles of loyalty are the same across any country, I think, right?

Lisa: But Saudi for me is also very different to the UAE.

Lisa: They’re obviously not as mature yet in terms of the penetration of number of programs.

Lisa: And, you know, even credit cards in the market, most people have a debit card, not a credit card.

Lisa: So there’s an evolution happening in terms of getting people more familiar with co-brands and things like that and credit cards in market.

Lisa: And what I like about the Saudi market is they’re kind of saying, you know, we know we’re a little bit behind in terms of loyalty, but that’s no problem.

Lisa: That means we’ve got a white paper to just do it really well.

Paula: Yeah.

Lisa: What should we do?

Paula: Yeah.

Lisa: What should we do if we’re not looking at what Dubai does, we’re not looking at anything else?

Lisa: What should we do with Saudi Arabia?

Lisa: Because, you know, we are booming, you know, we have a 2030 vision to achieve.

Lisa: And how do we achieve that vision without copying what everybody else has done and just be ourselves?

Paula: Yeah.

Lisa: And I actually really love that.

Lisa: And I think that that’s been really fun to engage in, and people opening their mindsets to being different and doing different things.

Lisa: And that as a consultant is also really nice because you want to be bespoke and you want to create interesting avenues and having that white canvas to do that.

Lisa: I really enjoy it in the Saudi market.

Paula: Yeah.

Lisa: So let’s see, watch this, see what’s coming.

Lisa: There’s lots of interesting things happening.

Paula: So yes, my goodness.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: And again, I just did a bit of research because I haven’t done any consulting at all in many years, as most of you know, but certainly Saudi, we can see the explosion of potential, as you talk about Lisa and the stat that I found, which again, I knew was high, but I didn’t realize it was this high, 62% of the population of Saudi Arabia is under the age of 30.

Paula: So when we think about these demographics, they are extremely well-educated, digitally savvy.

Paula: And I love your point as well.

Paula: You’re absolutely right.

Paula: They are very proud people.

Paula: And I think perhaps in the years gone by, other countries like the UAE was first to market probably with a lot of programs and propositions.

Paula: But now it is absolutely where Saudi is kind of going, well, hang on, no, we’ve got the time, the interest, the ambition.

Paula: We want to be the best in the world.

Paula: And we might not have done the best in the past, but we’re showing up now.

Paula: So I think, as you said, for you to be part of that evolution, coaching them, I think there’s an awful lot more education required in that market, particularly in the B2B side, in terms of bringing the loyalty professionals on board.

Paula: But you’re certainly doing that.

Paula: And again, the programs are starting to emerge, and that country is just doing incredible things.

Paula: So even for me, again, I suppose as somebody living in the region, I can’t wait to visit, you know, just even the tourism potential of that country, what they’re creating as experiences, if you’ve talked about places that are completely untouched.

Paula: It is quite magical, you know, and all that ambition.

Paula: Like, it’s hard not to get, you know, swept up, I guess, in the goals of a country when it says, no, we want to be the best in the world at X, Y and Z, and then doing everything that is needed to execute and bringing in the best.

Paula: So as you said, you’re part of the solution, co-creating the ideas.

Paula: So I can see why you’re so excited about the whole thing.

Lisa: Yeah, I agree with you.

Lisa: I love going to the Audi.

Lisa: I think the people there are also, you know, really excited about the change and enthusiastic.

Lisa: And yeah, I had a lovely I remember maybe about two years ago, I was going to Saudi and I was walking down the gangplank to the airplane.

Lisa: And there was an older Saudi gentleman walking with me.

Lisa: So I was walking with him and chatting.

Lisa: And he just turned to me and said, I absolutely love the fact that you’re coming to my country.

Lisa: Come to my country.

Lisa: Learn my country.

Lisa: This is amazing.

Lisa: You know, I’m loving seeing this.

Lisa: And he was so sweet.

Lisa: And he was asking all of us where we were from, because I was with colleagues and we continued to chat with him.

Lisa: And he was telling us stories about Saudi.

Lisa: And the people are just generally very, you know, heartfelt and it’s lovely.

Lisa: But you are right.

Lisa: It is a very young audience.

Lisa: And so you have to think about what it is that that audience wants, you know, because the Gen Z audience is very different, digitally Saudi, as you say, but also really led by ethics and the desire of sustainability is very interesting.

Lisa: You know, we’ve seen a lot of statistics showing that young Saudis are very, very into sustainability and not engaging in that space, you’re losing out on an opportunity to, you know, capture the hearts and minds of some of these customers.

Lisa: And so very different mindset, very young.

Lisa: So yeah, it is interesting.

Lisa: I love them.

Lisa: There is a, I think you might know the Kadir development in Saudi.

Lisa: I love how they are, I can’t remember their tagline.

Lisa: I wish I knew it off the top of my head, but it’s all around the notion that adults should play too.

Paula: Yes, yes.

Lisa: And it’s all about play.

Lisa: And an ex-colleague of mine, Ross McCauley works there and he’s actually the perfect person to work there because he is so creative and his mindset is playful.

Lisa: But just the pure notion that adults should play as well, not just children.

Lisa: I think, well, that’s so simple, but yeah, we should play too.

Lisa: And we get so much enjoyment of playing.

Lisa: So why are we not playing as well?

Lisa: So yeah, I just love some of the things that’s coming out of Saldi.

Lisa: It’s really fun.

Paula: It totally is.

Paula: So again, just for our audience who might know Kadir, we will link to it in the show notes because that’s the kind of thing that, as you said, like play is inspirational as well as relaxing and all of those amazing things that we seem to forget.

Paula: You know, as we grow up, we seem to think we have to be very serious and we don’t do the play thing.

Paula: So I’m definitely guilty of that.

Paula: So definitely I’ll check out Kadir and make sure our audience can as well.

Paula: So I guess what I’m hearing, Lisa, is obviously, you know, you love what you do.

Paula: So that’s the first thing.

Paula: You’re continuing to learn, which is extraordinary.

Paula: So the amount of research, the amount of exploration, the amount of innovation that’s coming through.

Paula: I guess for me is the reason I wanted you as a host on the show.

Paula: I’ve always admired your work and, you know, just wanted time and attention with you.

Paula: And I’m thrilled to bits that you’ve agreed to be a host of the show.

Paula: So I guess just I wanted to ask, you know, for the audience, you know, given that you have a million other things to do, taking on hosting this show is another thing on your to-do list.

Paula: But tell us a bit about why do you want to be a host of Let’s Talk Loyalty and what can we, I suppose, expect to hear from you?

Paula: What are you hoping to bring into our guests on the show?

Lisa: Yeah, thank you.

Lisa: Why do I want to be a host?

Lisa: No, I’m not very good at putting myself out there.

Lisa: I think you know that.

Lisa: I love talking to you and I’ve been on your show a couple of times, as we mentioned earlier, and I feel comfortable because I know you so well and it’s a subject matter I’m really familiar with.

Lisa: And I’m probably much better with unscripted scenarios where I’m just talking versus preparation for a panel or something.

Lisa: But whilst I’m confident and people might see me as extrovert, I’m actually quite an introvert.

Lisa: I don’t like putting myself out there.

Lisa: And so I think this was an amazing opportunity that you put in front of me to kind of push myself.

Lisa: And if I go back to the question you asked me first, the book that I wanted to recommend, The Monkey Sold His Ferrari is all about growth and trying to pursue that growth.

Lisa: And I think that hosting the show will be great for me to kind of put me out of my comfort zone.

Lisa: And I think it’s important in order to grow, you need to go outside your comfort zone.

Lisa: But also I do love talking to people.

Lisa: And I think I’m really excited to, and I alluded to this area as well, is bringing on some of the people that I have been working with, certainly in the data side of things, and to help the audience understand why we choose to work with specialists in data in the underlying principles of building a loyalty strategy.

Lisa: We do that at the foundation.

Lisa: So I have some really interesting conversations lined up with some of my colleagues in the company.

Lisa: Can I say the company name?

Lisa: Of course, please, please.

Lisa: For my colleagues, Dustin and Luke from Hemo Data, who are our partners in crime.

Lisa: Great team, but I think it will be really great to bring them on and for them to explain what they do for us in the loyalty sense.

Lisa: And I’m looking forward to kind of see who others I can bring in.

Lisa: Companies that work with loyalty programs that support particular vertical that has real significant value.

Paula: Yeah.

Lisa: I think it will be interesting to dive deeper on.

Lisa: But also maybe some other programs that I’ve always wanted to talk to.

Lisa: But now as a host of Let’s Talk Loyalty, I might be able to talk to in terms of just asking them some questions.

Lisa: Why did you do that?

Lisa: Tell us about it, because personally I’m interested.

Lisa: Yeah.

Lisa: So there’s a few people that we’d love to talk to.

Lisa: We, I say we, I would love to talk to.

Lisa: I say we because me and my team have been discussing this all the time.

Lisa: I’m like, team, who should we interview?

Lisa: So they’re very much involved in this decision making with me.

Lisa: Programs that we’re generally interested in so we can talk to.

Lisa: And yeah, so I’m excited and I thank you for asking me.

Lisa: I’m definitely putting myself outside of my comfort zone, but I think it’s going to be great and I’m going to enjoy the experience.

Paula: Yeah, I have no doubt, Lisa.

Paula: And I’m sure I’ve said it to you before as well.

Paula: Like when I started the podcast, you know, I didn’t have even anybody to kind of like, you know, show me the ropes, which please God, I’ll be able to do for you.

Paula: I’ve never worked in broadcasting, but I shared exactly what you’ve just shared, which is I love talking about loyalty.

Paula: I want to ask these people why they do what they do.

Paula: And I want to create stuff, which is educational and inspirational, because I always had this imposter syndrome running loyalty programs.

Paula: Like, I don’t think you’ve had imposter syndrome like me.

Paula: I’m totally sure.

Paula: Like, I was always like going, I’m sure we all do.

Paula: That’s true.

Paula: So, you know, you say data governance structure.

Paula: I’m like, what’s she talking about?

Paula: Oh yeah, let’s get somebody to talk.

Lisa: That’s why I have Nemo Data.

Paula: There you go.

Paula: There you go.

Paula: And it is, we have our own jargon.

Paula: You’ve used the term IO, for example, in this conversation.

Paula: So it’s not that long ago that I’m like, what’s IO?

Paula: Oh, invitation only.

Paula: But again, another new term, because I’ve never consulted on an IO program.

Paula: So I suppose long way of saying, you embody the values of the show.

Paula: You are educational, you are inspirational.

Paula: And I know the kind of guests you’re going to bring.

Paula: And I know the commitment that you have to being the best version of yourself, actually.

Paula: And that’s really what comes through every time we spend time together.

Paula: So from my side, Lisa, it’s an honor and a thrill to be, I suppose, handing over the next set of reins to you as a host of Lets Talk Loyalty.

Paula: And I’m sure we’re gonna have many more incredible conversations together, offline and online.

Paula: But I guess that’s all I had to ask you today.

Paula: Is there anything else you wanted to mention for our audience before we wrap up?

Lisa: Oh, no, I guess let’s get started.

Paula: Yes.

Lisa: Tune in, guys, and I’ll see who we get to talk to.

Paula: Amazing.

Paula: Absolutely.

Paula: And for sure, we know your first episodes are going to be releasing in September.

Paula: So yes, we’re all set.

Paula: And as I said, handing the reins over as we speak, making sure that Lisa has some extraordinary guests to share with you guys all around the world.

Paula: And as always, we’ll have Lisa’s contact details in the show notes and Bright Insights Consulting as well.

Paula: And no matter where you are in the world, I would encourage you to reach out to Lisa, if you have anything that you want to understand in terms of loyalty, because there is a font of knowledge.

Paula: I know you’re incredibly generous with sharing.

Paula: So with all of that said, I am thrilled to say a huge thank you for coming on.

Paula: It sounds very final for the last time as a guest on the show, but it’s all for the right reasons.

Paula: So Lisa Brightwell, Managing Director of Bright Insights Consulting.

Paula: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Lisa: Thanks Paula.

Paula: This show is sponsored by Wise Marketeer Group, publisher of The Wise Marketeer, the premier digital customer loyalty marketing resource for industry relevant news, insights and research.

Paula: Wise Marketeer Group also offers loyalty education and training globally through its Loyalty Academy, which has certified nearly 900 marketeers and executives in 49 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: For global coverage of customer engagement and loyalty, check out thewisemarketeer.com and become a wiser marketeer or subscriber.

Paula: Learn more about global loyalty education for individuals or corporate training programs at loyaltyacademy.org.

Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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