Sandals Resorts: Redefining Loyalty Through Experience and Community with Peter Menges (#690)

Peter: I actually don’t like the word because loyalty is earned.

Peter: So take loyalty out of the equation.

Peter: If you think about engagement, the delivery against a promise of, in our case, a great vacation experience.

Peter: Loyalty is a byproduct of behavior and experience.

Bill: Sandals is a known brand to me.

Bill: To me, it’s a boutique luxury brand, Caribbean based, it’s got the flavor, it’s so aspirational.

Peter: We actually refer to our Sandals Select members as family.

Peter: We use that word a lot.

Peter: We are a family, no other hospitality program that I’ve seen or been associated with has been able to execute, which is a consistent series of surprise and delight elements, both on property and off property.

Peter: One of the things that’s really important for people to understand about us is we are a high-cost, low-frequency relationship.

Peter: We want to figure out ways to engage our customers, our members outside the property.

Peter: You can’t come to us all the time, we’ll come to you.

Peter: Cost to us is a variable, but it’s not the defining variable.

Peter: Doing the right thing, delivering value, that’s what matters most to us.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is part of the Wiser Loyalty Series and is hosted by Bill Hanifin, Chief Executive Officer of The Wise Marketer Group.

Paula: The Wise Marketer Group is a media, education and advisory services company providing resources for loyalty marketeers through the Wise Marketer digital publication and the Loyalty Academy program that offers the Certified Loyalty Marketing Professional or CLMP designation.

Paula: I hope you enjoyed this episode brought to you by Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV in partnership with The Wise Marketer Group.

Bill: Well, everyone, I’m Bill Hanifin.

Bill: I’m the Managing Editor of The Wise Marketer.

Bill: And I’m here today with another episode of the Wiser Loyalty Podcast series, which is produced in partnership with Let’s Talk Loyalty and The Wise Marketer.

Bill: Now, twice a month, we bring you an interview with a C-level executive who has transformed strategy into practical application to generate business results.

Bill: And in this episode, I’m talking to an old friend, I would say, a colleague, somebody that I’ve known for quite some time, Peter Menges, who’s Senior Vice President of Customer Engagement and Loyalty with Sandals Resorts International.

Bill: Peter, how are you doing?

Peter: I’m doing great, Bill.

Peter: How are you doing?

Peter: Thanks for having me.

Peter: I don’t know if this is going to be a wiser marketer or not, but we’ll do our best.

Bill: Oh, I’m counting on it.

Bill: I’m counting on it.

Bill: Yeah, there was a condition to it.

Bill: So, but no, we have known each other for a while.

Bill: And I’d say characteristic of the loyalty industry, we all know each other through different roles, different relationships, but we keep the relationships going over the years, which is pretty rewarding, I think.

Peter: Yeah, 100 percent.

Peter: You know, to me, that’s one of the things I love about our space, is it’s innovative, creative, but you see people evolve.

Peter: So we, many of us have been around a long time.

Peter: But I think we’re also blessed with people that are, have come in and added a different dimension to the way we think and operate.

Peter: And, you know, at the heart of the business is the customer or the member.

Peter: But how you serve and create value and connect with members is going to continually change and evolve.

Peter: And, but it is, it’s a tight group, but a fluid group.

Peter: And it’s fun.

Peter: It’s a lot of fun.

Bill: It is, it is, absolutely.

Bill: So, you know, Paula Thomas is the founder of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

Bill: And so when she had a vision for some of these interviews, and she loves to have a common question for all our guests, and she likes to ask if there’s a non-fiction book that you’re particularly immersed in right now, or if it’s a favorite.

Peter: Well, you know, well, certainly I’m prepared for the question, as you were helpful in that regard.

Peter: But, you know, it’s interesting.

Peter: Pretty much all I read is nonfiction.

Peter: I love biographies.

Peter: I recently polished off the David Grohl biography, and I’m now immersed in the George Marshall, one of the great generals of World War II era and after World War I and World War II era and thereafter, which is a fascinating historical context for leadership.

Peter: And, you know, there’s a lot of people that have come before us that set a great example in humility and innovation in their own way and leadership and creativity.

Peter: And, you know, I’m just fascinated by people.

Peter: I think people are the most interesting creatures that walk the planet.

Peter: And anyway, I love biographies.

Bill: Yeah, that’s good.

Bill: Yeah, I share an interest in biographies with you as well.

Bill: And there is a lot we can learn from other people, especially some of the really accomplished ones.

Bill: But that’s a good one.

Bill: So, you know, I don’t know if you know this, but I’ve lived in South Florida for about 30 years.

Bill: So I consider myself just familiar with the Caribbean.

Bill: And so and I’ve and I spent a lot of time actually traveling Jamaica and a lot of other Caribbean islands and things.

Bill: So Sandals is a known, a known brand to me.

Bill: And I know it’s to me, it’s a boutique luxury brand, Caribbean based.

Bill: It’s got the flavor.

Bill: It’s so aspirational.

Bill: But that might be a good place to start.

Bill: Like, tell us really what Sandals is about today, like beyond what we might see in a commercial.

Peter: Yeah.

Peter: So just to level set, it’s Sandals Resorts and Beaches Resorts.

Peter: Okay.

Peter: Sandals Resorts is a collection of 20 all-inclusive properties exclusively in the Caribbean.

Peter: Couples only in the context of the Sandals brand.

Peter: Beaches is our family brand.

Peter: We have three of those.

Peter: But expanding rapidly, the Beaches brand, we’re investing a lot of money to expand that portfolio, accelerate that portfolio, particularly because our members that have grown so passionate and rich and connected to our Sandals product are craving a multi-generational family experience.

Peter: And the Beaches brand not only is designed for delivering great vacation to families, but the construct of the inventory is really, in large measure, serves well the multi-generational vacation.

Peter: So, historically, we were founded by Butch Stewart 44 years ago.

Peter: Butch Stewart is no longer with us, but his son Adam runs the company.

Peter: It is a family-owned company, Caribbean heritage, Caribbean-born.

Peter: Adam and the family have continued the father’s legacy.

Peter: We’re now what we referred to in the journey of Sandals 2.0, taking what was built by Mr.

Peter: Butch Stewart and accelerating it in ways that are designed to satisfy the travelers of today.

Peter: You look at our most recent product that we’ve added, St.

Peter: Vincent in the Grenadines, Curaçao, a resort in Jamaica called Duns River.

Peter: Our newest product is really a reflection of Sandals 2.0, in addition to a lot of the investment we’re making in our other properties to elevate the level of authenticity related to food and beverage, the construct of our suites, the amenities that are available to us, an acceleration expansion of excursions.

Peter: I think so much of travel today has a requirement of an experiential component.

Peter: So, how we build that out and make it unique and distinct and as we like to call it, sandalized, that experience for our members.

Peter: So, it’s a really dynamic, fun, exciting place to be.

Peter: We’re not under enormous pressure to grow.

Peter: We’re under self-imposed pressure to be great at what we deliver.

Peter: And what we do talk a lot about is that if our guest does not leave, having had a great vacation experience, then we failed.

Peter: And I think that that is a promise that we take very seriously and look to deliver at every step, every detail, et cetera.

Peter: So, that’s a little historical context in who we are.

Bill: That’s really good.

Bill: And how many properties do you have at present?

Peter: 20 Sandals and 3 Beaches, and that’s the portfolio.

Peter: And again, we’re looking to add 3 Beaches relatively, you know, quickly is a relative term in the resort development business, but over the next 3 to 5 years, and we’re also opportunistic, but we are Caribbean-centric.

Peter: We intend to stay Caribbean-centric.

Peter: That’s the promise, that’s our heritage, and that’s the vacation experience that we cherish.

Bill: Yeah, I’ve seen, I think, you had a resort in Montego Bay that I had been through, and it’s a beautiful property, I think, like all the properties, and that just, the intent with which you create these properties gives you that atmosphere where the experiences can be delivered, right?

Bill: So you’ve got the base there for people to have that unforgettable type vacation.

Peter: Well, what’s interesting is we’ll never, we don’t want to compete with, nor be anything like the big brands.

Peter: Every property is unique and distinct.

Peter: Every property has elements of it that are unique and reflect what makes that particular island or place on that island special.

Bill: Yeah.

Peter: And that’s why our members keep coming back over and over again.

Peter: We have an incredibly high return rate, and that’s because of the service, the personality, the people, every dimension of vacation that we look at.

Bill: Yeah, that’s a perfect segue, because return rate suddenly translated in my loyalty-centric mind is that L word.

Bill: But what is, you know, loyalty means different things to different people, and corporately we see a lot of CEOs and others expressing this desire to become customer-centric.

Bill: But what does it mean?

Bill: What is that word loyalty if that’s in your parlance daily at Sandals?

Bill: What does that mean to you and how does it translate into what your work is entailing?

Peter: It’s a really interesting use.

Peter: I actually don’t like the word because loyalty is earned.

Peter: So take loyalty out of the equation.

Peter: If you think about engagement and the delivery against a promise of, in our case, a great vacation experience, loyalty is a byproduct of behavior and experience.

Peter: So the way we think about our members, so we have the Sandals Select Rewards Loyalty Program.

Peter: It is a points-based construct, fairly traditional.

Peter: But our members are the most passionate, connected, engaged population community that you’ve ever seen.

Peter: And people say, well, who would you compare it to?

Peter: And I think the only examples that to me are even close would be maybe Disney and Harley Davidson and the level of passion those constituencies have for that brand.

Peter: The love of the people, the love of the product is extraordinary.

Peter: Why I bring that up is because that then gives us permission to do things that other hospitality brands can’t really do.

Peter: And let me actually provide another context for that.

Peter: We don’t have a big program.

Peter: We have approximately 2 million members.

Peter: So it’s not tens of millions of members.

Peter: We don’t need tens of millions of members.

Peter: We cherish the community that we’ve cultivated, that’s been organically grown, that we’ve been lucky enough to be able to nurture.

Peter: And so you’ve got this relatively small community that’s passionate about the product, passionate about what you deliver.

Peter: And that makes our job pretty exciting because we get to do things in addition to the core value proposition of a points-based earn-burn proposition.

Peter: We can layer in things like every Tuesday night, we have a welcome home dinner at every property.

Peter: All Loyalty members are invited to a specially curated dinner every Tuesday night.

Peter: Our VIP members, Diamond, Pearl, Ambassador, the top three tiers, are invited to a luncheon on Thursdays with the general manager.

Peter: Every Thursday, every property.

Peter: That makes us unique and distinct because the level of connectivity and connection, we actually refer to our Sandals Select members as family.

Peter: We use that word a lot.

Peter: We are a family, elevated above community.

Peter: It’s a family and we joke, we don’t always need to get along with everybody, but we’re all part of the family.

Peter: In addition to that, we’re able to layer in things that again, no other hospitality program that I’ve seen or been associated with has been able to execute, which is a consistent series of surprise and delight elements, both on property and off property.

Peter: I just got back from the UK where we participated in Cue the Music, an iconic music festival outside London, where we hosted our VIP members for four nights.

Peter: It was spectacular with goodie bags and obviously all the sandals elements that we were able to incorporate into it.

Peter: But a very special opportunity to spend time with our valued members.

Peter: We provide welcome home gifts to everybody.

Peter: We give ourselves permission to have other events throughout the United States where we can invite people in and have them participate in something.

Peter: We’re going to have welcome 120 guests, as an example, as our guests hosted by me, to the New York Liberty Basketball game on the 26th.

Bill: Really?

Peter: The Leckley Center.

Peter: So we go out of our way to express gratitude from our perspective in unique, special ways.

Peter: That I think, you know, we have a very special opportunity to connect with members that want to be connected with.

Bill: This is amazing.

Bill: Let me ask you something.

Bill: You brought the Caribbean flair to the UK, to England, when you had this music event, and you’re sort of doing the same, let’s say, at a basketball game in New York.

Peter: All over, yeah, we’re going to be meeting before that with a private reception at a Caribbean restaurant in Brooklyn for an hour, and then march over to the game together.

Peter: It’s special, you know, not to do a little self-promotion, but what the heck.

Peter: Peter W.

Peter: Menges on Instagram, you can follow us.

Peter: We’ve got a special channel devoted to Sandals Select Rewards and all the things we’re up to, because we love to showcase what we’re up to, but it’s not about an individual or a property.

Peter: It’s about our members and our ability to thank them and demonstrate all the fun we have together.

Bill: Yeah, it’s amazing.

Bill: So these events, as an example, these are gratitude and you could call them retention events.

Bill: If you put it in marketing terms, right, retention, is it at all an acquisition event?

Bill: Do you do anything to bring new people into the fold?

Peter: Not in this context.

Peter: Not in this context.

Peter: Well, that’s not entirely true.

Peter: At Cue the Music in the UK, we did have an activation area where we had a really fun photo booth for any attendee, but we were not marketing or selling a product.

Peter: We’re not even enrolling people in our loyalty program there off site.

Peter: You know, I think in large measure, there’s at a time and a place for everything.

Peter: Our emphasis at these events is really to express gratitude.

Peter: One of the things that’s really important for people to understand about us is we are a high cost, low frequency relationship.

Bill: Right.

Peter: Think about that.

Peter: So our best customer, best customer, we might see two or three times a year.

Peter: Our average customer will see once a year or once every other year, whatever their luxury vacation cadence might be.

Peter: But the depth of the relationship and the connection we make relatively instantly is so rich and so sincere and so family oriented that we want to figure out ways to engage our customers, our members outside the property.

Peter: You can’t come to us all the time, we’ll come to you, either directly, participating in events, or indirectly through other surprise and delight moments.

Bill: So that’s brilliant.

Bill: I was thinking about this because the high price point, low frequency model is one of the toughest when you think about creating customer frequency, return visit, call it loyalty.

Bill: But you’re doing all the right things to kind of touch points in between the cycles.

Bill: So you’re engaging people, you’re keeping them interested, you’re showing that you’re returning value to them.

Bill: And that’s one of the things we’ve heard over time is, in fact, I think our mutual friend Barry Kirk had mentioned this one time.

Bill: He said, I think that brands have to demonstrate loyalty to the customer first, if they expect the customer to give them loyalty in return.

Bill: And that’s exactly what you’re doing.

Peter: 100 percent.

Peter: And for a product like ours, we’ve built out a very robust referral program that we call Share the Love.

Bill: Oh, good.

Peter: Obviously, Bob Marley is a reflection of the Caribbean lifestyle and the vibe and the fun.

Peter: And obviously, he’s featured prominently in our ads, the music is, because he’s an iconic representation of that.

Peter: But his One Love message resonates through our product and proposition.

Peter: And even we will sign, many people say, thank you, whatever.

Peter: One Love is an expression that we like to use because it is a demonstration or a reference point for us that anchors us on a regular basis.

Peter: But it is hard with the frequency, but it is not as hard as people may think, if in fact, and I’m proud of what we’re up to, best in communicating in a way that is real and sincere and thoughtful.

Peter: And let me give you an example of that.

Peter: We, I, host, bi-annual, so twice a year, Zoom calls for our top four tiers.

Peter: I average between 4,000 and 6,000 people on a Zoom.

Peter: Believe it or not, they show up, and it’s great.

Peter: And I’ll give an update on where we are from a loyalty program standpoint.

Peter: And I always have a special guest, whether it’s Adam Stewart, the now executive chairman, son of Butch.

Peter: Last one I did was a couple of weeks ago.

Peter: I featured our CIO, Michael Delgado, who talked all about the evolution of technology and technology at the cornerstone of a lot of what we’re up to in the future.

Peter: So you think about brands or loyalty programs, quote unquote, that have that level of connectivity.

Peter: It really, we’re really, really lucky.

Peter: And the fact that that number of people have enthusiasm to spend an hour on the phone on a Thursday afternoon.

Bill: Oh, yeah.

Peter: It’s crazy.

Peter: I mean, I say crazy.

Peter: I don’t mean crazy, crazy like they’re crazy.

Peter: I think it’s wonderfully incredible that we built that sort of relationship with our community.

Bill: Absolutely.

Bill: I was thinking it’s wonderfully remarkable that you could get people to come in together in a community like that.

Bill: And that’s something that we talked about when you first told me before the call that you had been just recently to England and you had that special event for the members for your highest tier people.

Bill: You had a commentary about community, right?

Bill: About, you know, can you create communities?

Bill: Can you nurture communities?

Bill: But what’s your take on that?

Bill: I think people would like to hear that.

Peter: It’s, you know, it’s an evolving thought.

Peter: And, you know, in a past life, and I think we’ve all been in this situation.

Peter: Well, let’s create a community, an online community.

Peter: We’re in an online community and in the community, we’ll do all sorts of wonderful things.

Peter: But my time at Sandals, and I’ve now been here three plus years, is I’m not so sure you can wake up and build a community.

Peter: I think the members organically establish a community based on a shared love, or commitment, or some common denominator related to the brand that allows them, that stimulates their enthusiasm to be a part of something collective, i.e.

Peter: a community in this case.

Peter: I really don’t think you can just say, hey, as a brand, I want to have a community.

Peter: You can nurture a community, you can accelerate a community, but actually building one is different.

Peter: And the build, in my opinion, comes from this organic enthusiasm that you’ve established through the experience, through the relationships, the connectivity that then allows it to blossom in the right direction.

Bill: Do you think that it’s as powerful as that is?

Bill: It means that that might not be an available strategy for every brand.

Bill: I think Sandals lends itself so much to something like this.

Bill: And I know a lot of other brands would say, let’s say an average online retailer, let’s say, wants to build a community and get a lot of advocates.

Bill: Well, if you’re REI, maybe, because they do a lot of content generation and they get people excited.

Bill: They give them a vision for how you can use some of the equipment to go out into the mountains or whatever it might be.

Bill: But that’s tougher for some brands than others, isn’t it?

Peter: In my opinion, it is.

Peter: And you bring up REI, there’s a…

Peter: I’m a snowboard enthusiast, by the way.

Peter: And there’s a boutique online retailer called evo.com.

Peter: evo.com.

Peter: Evo is a more eclectic boutique version of REI.

Peter: Brands like Evo have the opportunity to create a community better or accelerate a community better because of the affinity and passion people have for the outcome.

Peter: Evo is empowering through their product and their services and their excursions that shared passion.

Peter: Not all brands can do that.

Peter: That’s why my perspective on what community means and the role brands can play in community and what brands can do to stimulate, accelerate, again, whatever word you want to assign to it.

Peter: It’s evolving, I think.

Peter: I think that part of it.

Peter: And technology plays a really important piece of that puzzle.

Bill: You must survey your members with some level of frequency, I would think.

Bill: Do you talk to them often?

Bill: And is that where you get some of the inspiration for?

Peter: We do.

Peter: We do an annual baseline survey that’s very comprehensive and we get very high participation, which is great.

Peter: And then we’ll do one-off surveys.

Peter: When we are contemplating a decision about a change in benefits or something related to the value proposition, we’ll ask, even if it’s down to holiday gifts, we love the idea to the best we can deliver against it, of being able to say, we asked you, you said this, and we’re doing that.

Peter: And so deliver against the promise of what their expectations are.

Peter: And selfishly, the more we can understand people’s expectations, the more we can exceed them.

Peter: I think not asking or asking and ignoring it, which is the worst outcome, creates a detriment for a brand.

Peter: So we do work hard.

Peter: We are very strategic, very thoughtful in that regard.

Peter: You become cavalier, you’re going to create yourself, you’re going to create a scenario where you’re vulnerable.

Bill: There you go, go ahead.

Bill: No, it’s a good point, but no, continue your thought.

Peter: Well, I just think the brand needs to ask in a purposeful way so that feedback can then be applied in a meaningful way, but also a visible way.

Peter: Those that participate should then say, hey, they asked and they did exactly what I suggested, or through our Zooms or other ways to communicate, express why we didn’t do that and went in a different direction.

Peter: Part of a brand like us, the relationship we have with our members, is also explaining why we do things.

Peter: We make a decision, people might not like it, but if they understand it, it’s easier to suggest and support.

Peter: So part of our obligation, and I’m a big fan of it regardless, is we have to be great communicators.

Peter: We have to listen, we have to learn, we have to always improve, but the threat around that is communication.

Bill: Yeah, that’s great.

Bill: So you were talking about some elements of the program, and the things you do that are focused on property, and that’s something we’ve talked about a lot, is people talk about customer experience, it can’t be fabricated, it’s got to be somehow integrated with everything else you’re doing from a marketing standpoint.

Bill: But what role do your frontline associates play in all that you’re doing on property?

Bill: Are they well trained on the program, or they bought into the program, or do they have an incentives to foster some of these linkages with your best customers?

Peter: Yeah.

Peter: I feel like I’m putting us on some lofty pedestal.

Peter: But here’s what makes us different.

Bill: Okay.

Peter: Our team members don’t need to talk about a loyalty program or the benefits of a loyalty program.

Peter: We deliver them insistently as a normal course of business throughout a member’s stay.

Peter: However, for those that have been to our properties and been to the Caribbean, the personality of the staff is what defines and separates us.

Peter: Remembering the drink you had last night, remembering your name, remembering what you appreciate about where to sit and reserving a chair as a favor.

Peter: The little things in our context make all the difference.

Peter: Remember, high cost, low frequency.

Peter: You’re there for a week, you’re there for 10 days, two weeks.

Peter: It needs to be the best, most enjoyable vacation experience we can deliver.

Peter: But the judge is ultimately the customer.

Peter: What separates us from any other building on a great beach is the people and the ability to deliver those little subtleties with a smile, consistent across the organization.

Peter: So I really don’t like to think about it in the context of, are people trained to deliver a benefit or a loyalty proposition?

Peter: People are trained to deliver the little things that make a big difference on a daily, hourly, whatever basis.

Peter: And it’s on full display every time show.

Peter: Once you get to the airport, once you leave, it is all things sandalized, as we like to refer.

Bill: That’s neat.

Bill: Well, it sounds like they might be empowered to make some decisions on the fly, too, to do the right thing in the right moment to satisfy a guest.

Peter: Always.

Peter: Always.

Peter: Again, it’s a special moment.

Peter: They’ve chosen us.

Peter: We take that very seriously.

Peter: They spent a lot of money.

Peter: And as I’ve said before, and I’ll say it a hundred more times, at least if we don’t deliver a great vacation experience, we’ve failed.

Bill: I think I’m shifting some of my vacation plans as we’re as I’m listening to this conversation and I’m thinking, boy, this sounds like something that I haven’t taken advantage of being even so close to some of these islands.

Bill: But one other thing that I have to say that I think I’ve learned is that you might have the best job of anybody I’ve talked to in a long time.

Peter: So I have, I honestly, Bill, you and I have been around the block a little bit.

Peter: And as we enter the later stage, I am blessed to be in a great spot.

Peter: It is a great, great product.

Peter: And most importantly, honestly, a great community of members that share a wonderful passion in the Caribbean.

Peter: So it’s a pretty good deal.

Bill: And it’s a pretty good gig.

Bill: Yeah.

Peter: And honestly, we have the flexibility to think in a way that is so customer centric.

Peter: And yeah, obviously, cost is always a variable.

Peter: But cost to us is a variable, but it’s not the defining variable.

Peter: Doing the right thing, delivering value, that’s what matters most to us.

Bill: Right.

Bill: Right.

Bill: That’s incredible.

Peter: Yeah.

Bill: Hey, we could talk a lot longer, and I would love to do it.

Bill: But this has just been wonderful.

Bill: So Peter Menges, who’s Senior Vice President Customer Engagement Loyalty with Sandals Resorts International.

Bill: Man, thank you so much for the insight here.

Bill: This has not been the typical conversation.

Bill: It’s been less programmatic and more brand-focused.

Bill: Really, I think bringing the idea of customer experience to life.

Bill: Talking about how to engage people in a longer.

Bill: It’s not a sales cycle per se, but it’s just a visit cycle.

Bill: But so all the things that you’re doing are fantastic.

Bill: And of course, it’s enabled by having a wonderful brand like this.

Bill: So yeah, any parting comments for us?

Bill: Anything else that we should know?

Peter: This was wonderful.

Peter: And I encourage everybody to come to the Caribbean.

Peter: It’s not a bad place to hang out.

Peter: I’ve got a little sunburn.

Peter: But that was, believe it or not, my sunburns from the UK was so hot over there.

Bill: Oh, there you go.

Peter: Really, this was great, Bill.

Peter: And as you can tell, we’re all passionate about the brand.

Peter: I would say drinking the Kool-Aid, but that’s not really that pokes fun at it.

Peter: It’s a pleasure to work for, work with a brand and a community that is so passionate about what we do.

Bill: It really is.

Bill: It really is.

Bill: Well, Peter, again, thank you so much and many thanks to Paula Thomas, Let’s Talk Loyalty for making this possible.

Bill: And it all happens when we have great guests and you’re a fantastic one.

Bill: So thanks, Peter, and thanks everybody for joining us.

Bill: See you next time.

Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Lets Talk Loyalty.

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