Crafting Loyalty for Superfans: Martina Lipp on Revamping Disney's Global Program

Paula: This show is brought to you by Phaedon and the Tally Platform, the power behind the world’s biggest and most beloved loyalty programs.

Paula: Formerly known as ICFnext, Phaedon works with many of the world’s leading brands to create standard customer experiences that drive emotional loyalty and lead to true bottom line impact.

Paula: Trust Phaedon to help you forge unbreakable bonds with your customers and future proof your brand.

Paula: Phaedon, driving brand love is what they do.

Paula: To learn more, visit www.wearephaedon.com And to help with the spelling, you can find a direct link in the show notes for this episode.

Paula: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is hosted by Carly Neubauer, managing director of Elevate Loyalty, an Australian-based company specializing in loyalty and incentive services.

Paula: Carly is also the managing director of One Tap Group, a UK-based company providing loyalty payment services.

Paula: Enjoy.

Carly: Hi, I’m Carly Neubauer, managing director of Elevate Loyalty and One Tap Group.

Carly: Today, I’m speaking with Martina Lipp, a loyalty specialist of many years and well-known for the revamp and overhaul of the international Disney Loyalty program.

Carly: Martina led the Omnichannel program strategy, encompassing all elements of loyalty design and implementation, while also customizing for the fans of Disney, Pixar, Star Wars and Marvel Studios.

Carly: Hi Martina, it’s so exciting to have you on the show today.

Carly: Welcome.

Carly: Now I’m excited not only because you have such a huge wealth of experience in loyalty across the world, but for me personally, I get to talk to another Austrian woman in loyalty.

Carly: So fantastic, welcome.

Martina: Yeah, I’m so excited.

Martina: Thank you for having me.

Martina: And yeah, I was so excited that we have like share similar roots.

Martina: That’s just so exciting.

Martina: And yeah, very glad to be here.

Carly: Good.

Carly: Well, let’s start off.

Carly: We have two big questions we ask all of our guests.

Carly: The first one being, tell us about your favorite nonfiction or business book.

Martina: Okay, cool.

Martina: So actually, I think I have a hard time picking one.

Martina: So I think I’m going to say mention three.

Martina: Number one, I think in terms of like leadership and being how to be a better leader, I think a Brene Brown, Dare to Lead, I think was really instrumental for me.

Martina: And I think a big game changer in terms of how I approach leading teams.

Martina: So that was, I think, a big one, embracing vulnerability, et cetera.

Martina: So yeah, she’s also one of my favorite people, I would say, in general.

Martina: I would say number three, number two would be a book about like behavioral psychology.

Martina: So I’m very interested in how people make decisions and what motivates you to do certain things.

Martina: So I picked one that actually is called Marketing to Mindstates by William Leach.

Martina: And it’s really focusing on like, what are the key motivators for people as they make personal, but also purchase decisions and how you basically can help them and nudge them to make good decisions.

Martina: And basically, obviously pick your program, for example, or how to motivate them to make certain actions in your program.

Martina: So it’s around engagement, belonging, empowerment, et cetera.

Martina: So very interesting.

Martina: And then I think I would say the third book I really enjoyed reading, I think was also a big game changer for me in terms of understanding how different cultures work, because I’ve been working across the world and I’ve been dealing with people from different backgrounds, but I’m also marketing to people from different backgrounds.

Martina: And I think in this case, I would say it’s the book, The Culture Map by Erin Meyer, and it really helps you understand how people approach certain situations, right?

Martina: So for example, some cultures are more task focused, some cultures are more relationship focused, so that would be Latin American countries, also Saudi Arabia, some countries are more hierarchy focused, and we have to keep that in mind.

Martina: So I think those are the things in some countries are more direct versus indirect.

Martina: So I think those are the things you can use for you as you work with people in different cultures, but also as you approach your customers in different countries.

Carly: I’m so lucky by doing this show and talking to people like you, I get to grow my own personal bookshelf as well.

Carly: So I did read The Culture Map and I absolutely love it.

Carly: And I think the fact that you’re talking to different regions, cultures across the globe, which is very relevant to Let’s Talk Loyalty, that we can understand a little bit about how to interact and respect other cultures and especially when we’re dealing in business scenarios as well.

Carly: So thank you so much.

Carly: I always appreciate it.

Martina: Thank you.

Paula: Awesome.

Martina: Cool.

Carly: Next question, of course, is, which is your favorite loyalty program?

Martina: So I have to say as a beauty product junkie, I think for me Sephora was definitely in the US program was definitely, I would say that they did everything perfectly.

Martina: Right.

Martina: So I feel like everything from the way how you collect points, but also the non-monetary interactions, how the way the app work, the benefits, the tiering.

Martina: So it really, I think they really made me spend so much money.

Martina: Yeah, they done the job.

Martina: So I really have to say, I think they’re doing really well.

Carly: That’s awesome.

Carly: And I love the fact that you mentioned Sephora, US as well, because that’s such a well-known program.

Carly: However, has some different intricacies in different countries as well.

Carly: They have different iterations of the Sephora program, depending on obviously where you live.

Carly: So you’re specifically loving the US version as well.

Martina: Yeah, I think, because I feel like that’s the, from my perspective so far, I’ve seen it’s the most sophisticated one.

Martina: And I think, but obviously I don’t know what’s happening in the rest of the world.

Martina: So that’s obviously coming from my own personal experience.

Martina: Unfortunately, we don’t have Sephora in the Netherlands.

Martina: So that’s a little bit, yeah.

Carly: No good.

Carly: Hard to maintain your status then, not the same.

Martina: Yeah, no, the status is gone now.

Martina: But every time I go to the US, I try to kind of shop, obviously, at Sephora to at least keep some level of status.

Paula: Maintain your tier.

Martina: You maintain your tier, yeah.

Paula: It’s good.

Carly: Now, something else you mentioned to me when we caught up previously as well is you’re doing a sommelier course of Australian wine.

Carly: Now, I have to ask you this, being in Australia currently.

Martina: Yeah.

Carly: Can you tell us your favorite so far?

Carly: What’s the great wine that you’re loving from Australia?

Martina: Okay.

Martina: So I have to say, so yeah, I’m doing this course, basically learning about WSCT to become, eventually maybe become a sommelier.

Martina: And yes, I have to say my favorite wine so far is definitely the Girard’s coming out of Australia because I think it’s very interesting how it’s different from the Girard that you see maybe in Europe or in America.

Martina: But I think the Girard’s kind of shows your own path.

Martina: So I think it’s a really, it’s just a little delicious and perfect.

Carly: So yeah, good job.

Carly: That’s great.

Carly: Especially coming from Austrian wine lover as well.

Martina: Yeah.

Martina: Yeah.

Carly: So let’s talk about loyalty though.

Carly: Tell us about your background.

Carly: How did you start out in the industry?

Martina: Yeah.

Martina: So I actually, I actually come from a more language and art history focus at the university, but then eventually realized I really wanted to be more on the business side.

Martina: I started out in PR and then eventually we kind of transitioned into marketing.

Martina: Started out at basically really in the email marketing space and then evolved from there to become really focused on customer marketing.

Martina: And obviously loyalty is a big part of customer marketing, making sure our customers are happy and stay with the brand I was working for.

Martina: I was working across different brands, mostly in a direct to consumer space.

Martina: Started out at T-Mobile where I was responsible, among other things, for the loyalty program.

Martina: That was basically my first big, big loyalty program I managed.

Martina: And very exciting and actually I’m really excited the program is still around.

Martina: And really interesting to learn about how do you, what kind of behaviors you want to encourage, how do you motivate people to do certain things, how to also move beyond the monetary aspect of a loyalty program, like collecting points and then obviously redeeming them.

Martina: So really how do you create an additional benefit is a little bit more beyond the transactional benefits.

Martina: Then moved on to Nespresso.

Martina: Again, here loyalty was a little bit more subtle.

Martina: So we were really focusing on more, how do we keep people engaged and loyal beyond having a designated and dedicated loyalty program.

Martina: And eventually I moved to Disney, and there I was in charge of the loyalty program for the Disney studios.

Martina: So very exciting areas, both from wireless industry to FMCG and then also in the entertainment business.

Martina: So yeah, and why I think I got into this, I think it’s really because I have, I’m just very curious about people’s behavior and what drives people.

Martina: So I think that the empathy aspect, I think got me really excited, but then I also love numbers and understanding people and really using data in order to inform my decisions.

Martina: So I think that kind of intersection between these two, I think is where my sweet spot is.

Carly: So it’s the perfect interaction for a loyalty professional, isn’t it?

Martina: Yeah, left brain, right brain, right?

Martina: So a little bit.

Carly: So good.

Carly: So I definitely want to talk about the reimagining of the Disney program.

Carly: This is huge.

Carly: And you had such a huge role to play here and in so many areas of a full revamp of such a very, very large program.

Carly: So can you take us from the start?

Carly: You were revamping that entire thing.

Carly: And there were so many facets.

Carly: Where do you start with something that huge?

Martina: Yeah, it was a really huge undertaking.

Martina: So I joined Disney because they needed someone to actually help them revamp the program.

Martina: The conversations had already started.

Martina: There was definitely an understanding of actually where do we take this program?

Martina: It had been tremendously successful, been around for a long time.

Martina: But we, or the people that basically were on the team, we noticed that obviously we were missing some thought groups that I think we were a little bit underrepresented.

Martina: It also failed a little bit.

Martina: We needed to do a little bit more in engaging customers beyond the transactional part.

Martina: They already did a lot there, but I think there was some opportunity there.

Martina: So it was really, first was I think it was really understanding, okay, are we gonna do this and getting the whole organization to come along on that journey, right?

Martina: So I think that was the first start.

Martina: That took a little bit of convincing sometimes.

Martina: And then basically, then we obviously started the whole path and it was really no stone left unturned.

Martina: So we thought about everything, obviously from the general strategy, moving on to the brand, customer service, the technology.

Martina: Yeah, it was really basically after the, at the end of the project, really pretty much everything was new.

Martina: So it was a very, yeah, it was kind of taking in the amazing experience.

Carly: This is a big one.

Carly: So we’ll go from the earliest pieces, stakeholder buy-in.

Carly: How do you even go with that?

Carly: When it’s already an established program, it is already working.

Martina: Yeah.

Carly: How did you get stakeholder buy-in to start this revamp?

Martina: Yeah.

Martina: So I think that goes back to psychology and understanding people’s motivations, I think.

Martina: So obviously, that comes very handy here as well.

Martina: I think the big goal was how do we bring different parts of the organization along for the journey by understanding what drives and motivates them.

Martina: And there might be some more rational reasons, but there might be also some emotional reasons.

Martina: And understanding that, I think, was one of the big parts of that.

Martina: Trying to convince people is really like understanding those motivations behind each team’s leadership.

Martina: So what we did initially is really bring people from many parts of the organization that we felt like would be instrumental and important for this journey.

Martina: We brought them along as we were discussing re-imagination.

Martina: And then also we went on, actually I think it turned out in the end, three road shows.

Carly: So once you’ve brought your key stakeholders on the journey and they’re on board and then you have their buy-in, what about the member base?

Carly: How do we engage them and explain to them that we’re relaunching a whole new program?

Martina: Yeah, so what we did, a huge part of actually preparation in preparing for the relaunch was really to get the current customers on board for that, but also understanding their motivations.

Martina: Again, coming back to the topic, motivations and what drives them.

Martina: We had a ton of customer focus groups, we really tried to go to the bottom, we had some quantitative and qualitative research we’ve been doing to really get to the bottom of actually what is driving customers.

Martina: We obviously also looked at the existing data and saw obviously certain patterns that were probably an indicator that maybe people were not as excited about the program.

Martina: There was in terms of earn rate, for example, there were a couple of things that we needed to tackle in order to make sure this is becoming a better experience for existing customers.

Martina: Again, we brought people in for focus groups, really getting to the bottom and understanding what’s driving them, what they like about the current program, what they would love to see, and then really using that input to drive the strategy for the new program.

Martina: We also brought in the cohorts that actually wanted to see more represented in the program.

Martina: We had separate groups where we had people that were not part of the program yet, but were generally interested in the loyalty program.

Martina: To also get an understanding of what’s holding them back from joining our program right now.

Carly: I like this, so it’s your existing member base, but also your target audience.

Carly: Who do we want here?

Carly: And getting a good understanding.

Carly: That’s great.

Carly: And I think the next part that I found so interesting when we’ve talked in the past is the rebranding and the renaming.

Carly: I mean, you’re reimagining a Disney program, right?

Carly: So how do you approach even rebranding something in that space?

Paula: This show is brought to you by Phaedon and the Tally Platform.

Paula: The power behind the world’s biggest and most beloved loyalty programs.

Paula: Formerly known as ICFnext, Phaedon works with many of the world’s leading brands to create standard customer experiences that drive emotional loyalty and lead to true bottom line impact.

Paula: Trust Phaedon to help you forge unbreakable bonds with your customers and future proof of your brand.

Paula: Phaedon, driving brand love is what they do.

Paula: To learn more, visit www.wearephaedon.com and to help with the spelling, you can find a direct link in the show notes for this episode.

Martina: That was a really big undertaking.

Martina: So I think the first big challenge was really like the renaming, right?

Martina: So that’s obviously within the Disney brand.

Martina: You obviously have to be very careful in terms of actually what is possible and what is not possible.

Martina: Then you have to make sure it obviously resonates with customers.

Martina: And I think in the end, we landed on a really great name that really captured where we wanted to go.

Martina: But it’s a very simple name, but it took us a really long time to get there because obviously, naming is a very emotional topic.

Martina: Obviously, people have very strong opinions sometimes.

Martina: So we did a lot of testing on that name too.

Martina: So we went from the original program was called Disney Movie Rewards, so really focusing on the reward aspect.

Martina: We then changed it to Disney Movie Insiders to really focus and hone in on that aspect of becoming part of a community.

Martina: It’s more, it’s also about the experience and really feel like you’re part of a group of insiders.

Martina: And I think that really was the reason why we actually decided to move forward with that name.

Carly: Absolutely.

Carly: It definitely resonates for people to be part of something, doesn’t it?

Martina: Yeah.

Martina: Yeah, you want to be an insider, right?

Carly: And the next thing I thought was super interesting is how you approached the tech-free platform and some of the pros and cons you found throughout that journey as well.

Martina: Yeah.

Martina: So we had a really strong technology platform and a big, really amazing partner along the journey before.

Martina: But there were obviously certain things that we wanted to do, that we were a little bit concerned that maybe the partner was not able to do as of yet.

Martina: So what we did is we basically went through a big RFP process where we had, we looked at a big array of different vendors, narrowed it down to four, including our current vendor, and really went through a very thorough process in terms of understanding what their capabilities are.

Martina: And then decided we would need to go through a re-platforming because we just felt there were certain features that our existing vendor was not able to deliver or had not built yet.

Martina: And so that drove the decision to actually move to a new vendor.

Martina: And yeah, so very exciting about that.

Martina: So one big trial was also because we wanted to have an app.

Martina: So that was something that came up in both the customer and member interviews but also with the potential customers.

Martina: So that also became a very important aspect of the program.

Carly: Now one thing I love about this app, and please talk to us, is that personalization or customization of the interface.

Carly: So please talk to us about that.

Martina: Yeah, so I think that was one of the coolest features.

Martina: So obviously the Disney company obviously consists of multiple studios.

Martina: So you have obviously Core Disney, then you have Pixar, then you have Marvel, then you have Star Wars.

Martina: As you probably can imagine, very different fan bases to a certain extent.

Martina: There’s obviously people who love all of it, but that’s going to be some differences in terms of actually the target groups, right?

Martina: So Disney is probably more family-focused, kids, etc.

Martina: A little bit more pivoting towards a female audience.

Martina: Marvel and Star Wars, as you probably can imagine, are more male-focused, probably a little bit on the younger side.

Martina: So how do we get these people on board?

Martina: And the one thing, and it’s such a great idea, I think, was basically we gave you the opportunity.

Martina: As you download the app, you could pick your favorite studio, and then basically that would change the whole interface.

Martina: So you would basically become a model-focused app, whereas a Disney-focused app.

Martina: So you have different imagery, etc.

Martina: So yeah, I thought it was very exciting.

Carly: Well, it’s good.

Carly: It appeals to what the people were really, really wanting to see and why they’re there in the first place, why they’re a Disney insider.

Carly: That’s fantastic.

Carly: Any key outtakes from your journey at Disney?

Carly: What would you recommend or some key advice you might give?

Martina: Yeah, I would really say, I think bringing, if you want your loyalty program to be successful and get support across the different levels of leadership, I think it’s really, I think we talked in the beginning, to bring people along for the journey and understanding what drives them.

Martina: So you might have the finance team that probably is more focused on actually profitability, financials, et cetera.

Martina: You might have the marketing, the other parts of the marketing team that probably care more about how can we reach customers better and really understanding those explicit and implicit motivations.

Martina: I think that’s, I think, the key part if you want to bring people along for the journey.

Martina: But ultimately, in the end, I think it is important to make sure that actually it’s also financially viable.

Martina: And I think that definitely became one of the biggest questions we had to answer.

Carly: Yeah.

Carly: Thanks so much, Sans, isn’t it?

Carly: I think so many loyalty professionals would face that conversation regularly.

Carly: You mentioned Nespresso earlier when you were talking about your journey through loyalty from T-Mobile, which is a very big Austrian mobile company.

Carly: One thing I’d love you to talk to us about was something we’ve discussed in the past around maybe a really cool idea and a surprise and delight that went wrong.

Martina: Yeah.

Paula: I’m still thinking about this to this day.

Martina: Yeah, it was a good one.

Martina: We had this really great idea.

Martina: We wanted to reward our most valuable customers with some surprise and delight.

Martina: So we had this very nice cups, etc.

Martina: We had a really nice, it was a really nice targeting.

Martina: We had some really good, like the way we split the customer base.

Martina: I thought it was really very well thought through.

Martina: We were all really excited about it.

Martina: What we did not expect is the postal system in Austria.

Martina: We had a little bit different approach to this.

Martina: So what happened was we sent basically packages to our customers that were a little bit on the larger side.

Martina: So at some occasions they were not able to be placed in the post boxes, mailboxes.

Martina: So those went back to the post office.

Martina: So now obviously people got an alert saying, hey, there’s a package for you from Nespresso.

Martina: Come pick it up.

Martina: And people obviously got really confused because they said, I didn’t order anything.

Martina: And so there was concern around.

Martina: So we had a lot of calls to our customer service with concerns around, I didn’t order anything.

Martina: Is this some, what is this?

Martina: And yeah, so definitely lesson learned on that one.

Martina: We then obviously had to figure out actually how do we get, make sure these packages still get delivered.

Martina: So we reached out to those customers and let them know.

Martina: It worked out in the end.

Martina: It was not a problem in the end.

Martina: And I think we figured out a good solution, but it was definitely a learning to be more, to think about that last step basically in this whole marketing activation.

Martina: We did not take into account the restrictions of Austrian mailboxes.

Martina: So yeah, lesson learned.

Carly: It’s always the last thing to think of, right?

Martina: Yeah, it was so well thought out.

Martina: And then really, yeah.

Carly: Such a beautiful gift as well.

Martina: Such a beautiful gift.

Martina: It was beautiful.

Martina: It was really nice, high quality product.

Martina: So really, the people who got it were really happy, right?

Carly: Yeah, no doubt.

Martina: It was a little bit, some of it was a little bit bumpier to get there.

Martina: So yeah.

Carly: Good to know.

Carly: Very good to know.

Carly: And no doubt that’s still still faced across the world in multiple regions, I imagine, the consistency of the postal systems.

Martina: Yeah.

Carly: So if you think about the loyalty industry now and what you’re seeing, what’s your favorite thing about the industry and some of the best things that you see as a consumer and a member these days?

Martina: So I feel like that’s what I feel like as I go to all these conferences, etc.

Martina: I think what I love is that we’re having very honest conversations.

Martina: I think we’re making really good progress in terms of understanding profitability of loyalty programs, how to position loyalty programs, the incremental value that we generate.

Martina: I think we’re making really strong progress because I feel that that was always a little bit of a harder topic to tackle.

Martina: And then I think what I see obviously there’s a lot of opportunity with AI.

Martina: I mean, I have to mention AI, I think.

Carly: You can’t have an interview without saying that.

Martina: Yeah, I guess it’s still not.

Martina: But I think there’s actually a really nice opportunity there, right?

Martina: Because it really helps you with personalization, obviously, which is sometimes really hard to do if you have to do it all manually more or less.

Martina: But now I think there’s a lot of opportunity with that one.

Martina: So I’m definitely very excited about that.

Martina: But I also noticed maybe on the more cautious side, I think people and loyalty programs are being more scrutinized more intensely, I think, right now.

Martina: So I think that’s obviously, I think probably good, but also obviously makes us think about how do we approach loyalty going forward, right?

Martina: So.

Carly: Are there any areas you think that, look, as an industry, we need to address and we need to do better as a group and as a whole?

Martina: That’s a really good question.

Martina: Yeah, I think it’s really in terms of how we position loyalty within the organization.

Martina: And I think for me, the biggest, and I already mentioned it in the previous answer, I think is really understanding the incremental value we deliver.

Martina: And I think there’s obviously certain things you can do in terms of actually measuring that.

Martina: I think we’re still not perfect when it comes to that, because there’s obviously some bias that you see with people signing up for loyalty programs in the first place.

Martina: And so how do you kind of counter that?

Martina: But again, I think we’re making great progress.

Martina: I also think it’s also thinking about what kind of value do you place on a customer, information or customer address, or at knowing who the customer is.

Martina: I think that was also a big discussion in previous companies for me is, what’s the value of knowing that you, Carly, live in Australia, we know you’re buying those certain things.

Martina: What are the intrinsic benefits of actually knowing more about you?

Martina: So I think that’s something I feel like we’re in, it’s more between like art and science a little bit, right?

Martina: You kind of have to kind of work your way towards that.

Carly: And an interesting one that we discuss a fair bit is personalization.

Carly: Everyone talks about personalization, but where’s the line around knowing enough to customize versus knowing too much and being creepy?

Martina: Yeah, I agree with you on that one.

Martina: I think we had situations in the past where we did the very, we felt very sophisticated, personalized campaigns that maybe were a little bit too much for the customer.

Martina: And we were like, oh, how do you all know all this?

Martina: So I think that’s a big question in terms of when do you have to do everything?

Martina: Are you going to do everything you can do in terms of personalization, or are you going to kind of keep it a little bit more nebulous for the customer?

Martina: So I think that’s one thing I would say.

Martina: I would also say in terms of as you think about campaigns, it’s a fine line between becoming like too fragmented in your communication and between the batch and blast and the big campaigns versus actually the hyper personalization.

Martina: So I think that’s going to be like a fine line you probably have to kind of work.

Martina: And I think it’s also different for industries and companies, right?

Carly: Yes, for sure, for sure.

Carly: So before we finish up, I want to ask you one question.

Carly: In life and loyalty, what do you know for sure?

Carly: It works.

Martina: No, I think really, I think people want to belong.

Martina: And I think if you understand that motivation, I think you can really take create a really nice win-win situation for both the customer as well as the company.

Martina: And I think that coming together, I think makes it a very exciting place to be in general, in business and in marketing.

Carly: So good.

Carly: That’s the best answer.

Carly: It works.

Carly: Huge thank you so much for your time.

Carly: It’s been so lovely to chat with you, Martina.

Carly: So thank you once again and see you soon.

Martina: Yeah.

Martina: Thank you.

Martina: It was a pleasure.

Carly: Bye.

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