ebucks Rewards Celebrates 25 Years as a World Leader Driving Banking Loyalty (#686)

Pieter: If you’re in loyalty and rewards, you’re probably focusing on the right things that add significant value to customers.

Paula: Tell us a bit about the rewards business that you lead.

Pieter: eBucks has been around 25 years.

Pieter: October is our 25th birthday.

Pieter: It was started by our founders.

Pieter: It really is part of our DNA.

Pieter: Our staff within FNB eat, live, breathe, sleep eBucks, and they want to maximize the reward out of it.

Pieter: Life is serious enough sometimes that a little bit of fun in between is really good, and rewards play a big part of that.

Pieter: You come up with these ideas, but someone’s got to roll up their sleeves and crack on and make it happen.

Pieter: The social contract that you have with your team and the culture that you drive within your team, and they’re the ones that also put in the long hours to deliver the crazy ideas that you come up with.

Pieter: So I think the team and how to get that right is something I think a lot about.

Pieter: The founders who started this thing 25 years ago, it means the world to us and we’ll continue to fight for them as much as possible.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights for loyalty marketing specialists around the world.

Paula: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Paula: It’s Paula Thomas here and I’m delighted to be today chatting with Pieter Woodhatch, CEO of eBucks Rewards based in South Africa.

Paula: eBucks has been on the Let’s Talk Loyalty show twice before, prompted by winning both the South African Loyalty Awards and International Loyalty Awards year after year.

Paula: And this year is no exception.

Paula: I’m of course thrilled that it’s also the first time to feature eBucks on Loyalty TV.

Paula: eBucks Rewards is truly an exceptional program, as you’ll hear.

Paula: Owned and operated by First National Bank, it is one of South Africa’s leading rewards programs.

Paula: And they’ve been rewarding banking customers for 25 years.

Paula: Pieter today explains how members can earn eBucks while doing everyday things, like filling up with fuel, buying airtime and shopping in their partner retailers, including all the important categories like pharmacy and grocery shopping.

Paula: And then they can spend those eBucks on anything from a dream holiday to monthly essentials or the latest gadget.

Paula: I hope you enjoy my conversation with Pieter Woodhatch from eBucks Rewards.

Paula: So, Pieter Woodhatch, welcome for the first time to Loyalty TV, and eBucks has been on, of course, Let’s Talk Loyalty before, so welcome back as a brand.

Pieter: Thank you, thank you very much.

Pieter: Thank you to you, your listeners, and Amanda as well.

Pieter: And specifically to you and Amanda, thank you for the work you guys do around loyalty.

Pieter: Since I’ve entered the fray, I’ve seen how much work it takes in the background and just compliments to both of you.

Pieter: Thank you.

Paula: You’re very kind, Pieter.

Paula: That is much appreciated.

Paula: I sometimes feel like this is one of the hardest jobs in the world.

Paula: Probably shouldn’t be.

Paula: And my team, I think, has to experience as well, just because we want to be really good at what we do.

Paula: So the appreciation is much well received.

Paula: So thank you for that.

Paula: And I know you have an amazing story to tell.

Paula: Of course, eBucks is always winning global awards and just kind of setting the bar, I think, in terms of what loyalty professionals need to understand about what’s possible with the program.

Paula: But before we get in to talk about eBucks Rewards, as you know, Pieter, I have a favorite new question, which I know Amanda already talked to you about.

Paula: And I guess what I’m trying to do is understand a bit about you as a person.

Paula: So what might have inspired you in terms of a book, either from life, in terms of loyalty, or in terms of leadership.

Paula: So if you were to recommend a book for our audience, Pieter, just kick us off and tell us what is your favorite book?

Pieter: So fantastic.

Pieter: Firstly, I don’t read that much, as much as I should, let me put it that way.

Pieter: But the South African rugby team, I think, is a wonderful story around unification of the country.

Pieter: And the coach of the rugby team, what he’s able to get, what he’s able to have gotten right, let me put it that way, with a very diverse team, a very diverse country.

Pieter: And the role that sport plays, I think, in unifying South African specifically, we’re so passionate about it.

Pieter: My wife bought me his book for Christmas, and I’ve been reading his book.

Pieter: And it’s incredible to see his story, like, from where he grew up, at, you know, real grassroots, you know, in the Eastern Cape, and in a small town, and just really passionate about rugby, playing rugby, like, you know, without shoes on, and just him and his friends, and the bug bit, and from then on, has been involved in the topic.

Pieter: And some of the struggles that he’s been through, I think sometimes in life, we see the success stories, you know, and we think it just happened, and we aspire to them, but we don’t realize the hard work that went into to make that happen.

Pieter: So, it’s been a great book and a great read.

Paula: Brilliant.

Paula: And you must give us the name, and the author, actually, if you don’t mind, Pieter, just so we can put it in the show notes for our audience.

Paula: So, do you have the name at the top of your head or you could just send it to me after?

Pieter: Yeah, so the name of the book is Rassie, and the author, I’ll send you offline and you can put it on the notes.

Paula: Amazing.

Paula: Brilliant.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: And I think you’re absolutely right, actually.

Paula: I was even thinking about podcast, Pieter, like the common theme that comes through in terms of what moves us emotionally, I think is those authentic stories.

Paula: And I suppose the hero’s challenge, I think, is what it can be technically called, where somebody, you know, starts in a difficult situation, finds redemption, finds a solution, gets inspired, and then ultimately achieves things, which inspires the rest of us.

Paula: So that definitely sounds like one to read.

Paula: So thank you for the recommendation.

Pieter: Absolutely.

Paula: Great.

Paula: So tell us a bit about you, Pieter.

Paula: I think we have, you know, an incredible global audience who might not know your incredible achievements in business to date, given that you’re based at the South African market.

Paula: As I said, you have won lots of global awards, but just for anyone who doesn’t know first of all about you, and then I’ll get you to introduce the brand.

Pieter: Fantastic.

Pieter: So I started my career as a quant in first-rand, 2006.

Pieter: And so data and analytics was always kind of the cornerstone.

Pieter: And I always felt if I knew the answer, it’s a lot easier to get people to move your direction.

Paula: If I can put it that way, and very wise, very wise.

Pieter: So I always anchored to data and I was, let’s say, often right, which helped a lot.

Pieter: And then the career grew and I grew into collections and innovation and business innovation.

Pieter: And South Africa went through quite a bad financial crisis in 2008-2009.

Pieter: And that became quite an important part of the business.

Pieter: And we were able to innovate quite a lot around the collection space.

Pieter: I then actually left First Rand for a couple of years and we started an energy business.

Pieter: A little bit ahead of our time in South Africa, if I’m honest.

Pieter: I think the rest of the world was already full steam ahead.

Pieter: But quite good.

Pieter: And we amalgamated into a business called Multisource and bought Abus Broadlink, bought the Spectrum and started a telco called Rain out of that.

Pieter: And that was a really great journey.

Pieter: Part of that journey, I think, just led me to realize that financial services is close to my heart and what I really enjoy doing.

Pieter: And I was lucky enough in 2015 to have the chance to come back to FirstRand and then I took over the seat in the lower income segment to run the lower income segment for FirstRand as a sub segment, we call it.

Pieter: And then from there, I ran sales for the whole of retail and from there into eBucks.

Pieter: I thought, you know, if you sell all these products, let’s look at the levers that you can use to sell it.

Pieter: And Rewards was such a close to the heart of so many FirstRanders, if I can put it that way, FNBers, that I thought this has got to be a great space to be in.

Pieter: And so here I am.

Paula: Amazing.

Paula: Well, it is close to our hearts, and I know it’s close to yours as well.

Paula: So I definitely want to understand the whole program and again, make sure our global audience does.

Paula: But before we do, like, there’s just so much even to pick up on what you’ve already said.

Paula: So first of all, just the term quant, I think means quantitative analysis for those of us without the same intellectual property on the data side.

Paula: Am I right?

Pieter: Absolutely.

Pieter: Absolutely.

Pieter: Yeah.

Paula: Brilliant.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: Great.

Paula: I got that.

Paula: Yes.

Paula: My husband works in banking as well.

Paula: I still don’t know any of the industry terminology.

Paula: So there you go.

Paula: And the other piece I love you said, so casually, Pieter, is, you know, we started an energy business and then we started at Telco.

Paula: These are incredible achievements.

Paula: I mean, obviously you’re very ambitious and love creating and innovating.

Paula: So that sounds like a core part of your personality.

Paula: I mean, I don’t know you very well, clearly, but very impressive what you’ve done.

Pieter: Yeah, I think it’s always excited me.

Pieter: I think it’s always excited me to see what’s the art of the possible and to take something and to see what you can do with it, if I’m honest.

Pieter: I think that’s why rewards as a topic is so exciting for me at this stage.

Pieter: I think loyalty is not a topic that’s going away.

Pieter: It’s probably a topic that’s going to be a lot more hotly contested and something that’s a lot more relevant to customers out there as we go through economic cycles.

Pieter: And nowadays, it’s such an important part of buying behavior for consumers out there.

Pieter: So, you know, having a look at the telco industry and, you know, looking at how you can disrupt, you know, being a new income and what are the ideation that you can bring was really exciting.

Pieter: And with time, I think what I’ve managed to realize is just the importance of marrying the operational capability with the idea.

Pieter: You know, you come up with these ideas and people buy into them and they’re willing to invest in them, but someone’s gotta like roll up their sleeves and crack on and make it happen.

Pieter: And that’s probably like a big lesson that I’ve learned over time.

Pieter: And something that I’ve had to, you know, really just make part of who I am is the patience to see the result through, if I can put it that way.

Paula: Indeed, yes.

Paula: And also something I tell my team as well, Pieter, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

Paula: So, you know, there’s reasons that we’re the ones that happen to be stressing behind the scenes and doing everything we can, of course, to make it look perfect on the outside.

Paula: So thanks for that.

Paula: I guess the next obvious question then, Pieter, is just to get a sense of the business, the overall bank that you work for.

Paula: And you’ve mentioned First Rand, FNB.

Paula: So I know there’s different terminology.

Paula: But would you just talk about FNB as a business in the context of the South African banking market?

Pieter: Absolutely.

Pieter: So FNB, financial services bank that operates across, let’s say, multiple different pillars, if I could.

Pieter: So we actually have a connect business, a transact business, a lend business, an invest business and an insure business.

Pieter: So it’s quite diverse across the pillars.

Pieter: And then we service different sectors of the market, if I can put it that way.

Pieter: So obviously on the retail side, we classify our customers into two different core groups.

Pieter: The one is our personal group and then our private group.

Pieter: And our personal group is anyone who owns, let’s say, 750,000 rand per annum and below and then above that.

Pieter: And then on our commercial side, we’ve got smaller businesses and then obviously your larger businesses and then the third chunk is up into R&B and enterprise and those cuts.

Pieter: So your smaller businesses and your entrepreneurs that are starting off and as they need to grow into these different segments.

Pieter: And then into quite a diverse, broader Africa business for us as well.

Pieter: And eBucks services across that.

Pieter: So we anchor into the ability to give value back to customers across those.

Pieter: And that’s our mechanism to keep customers, keep them engaged and drive certain behavior.

Pieter: And that’s what our core value back to the business is.

Paula: Amazing.

Paula: So that’s obviously, I suppose, the insight that led to the development of eBucks Rewards.

Paula: So talk to us about the Rewards business.

Paula: And it’s got an extraordinary legacy and as we said, award winning globally.

Paula: But just tell us a bit about the Rewards business that you lead.

Pieter: Absolutely.

Pieter: So eBucks has been around 25 years.

Pieter: October is our 25th birthday.

Pieter: So it’s quite an exciting milestone for us as a business.

Pieter: And makes me feel very, very young, if I’m honest, being one year in the seat.

Pieter: So I’ve still got a lot of work to do, if I can put it that way.

Paula: Yeah.

Pieter: But you’re also 25 years old.

Pieter: It was started by our founders.

Pieter: And I know we’ve chatted quite a lot, but one of the things that drives eBucks quite a lot is because it was started by our founders and been around so long, it really is part of our DNA.

Pieter: And our staff within FNB, eat, live, breathe, sleep eBucks.

Pieter: And they want to maximize the reward out of it.

Pieter: And so they constantly, let’s say it’s chipping from the sidelines and guiding and helping and going, I tried this and it didn’t work.

Pieter: Or I tried this and you need to make that better.

Pieter: Or this partner, you need to rethink that mechanism.

Pieter: And that’s what drives us so hard as eBucks.

Pieter: And I think it puts a lot of pressure, but that pressure, I think, in a really good way for us.

Pieter: As a rewards program, we anchor into capabilities that we have.

Pieter: So whether it be travel or our shop, different mechanisms for you to be able to burn the currency that you earn and those capabilities, we focus a lot on.

Pieter: And our strategy largely is to hone those in-house.

Pieter: I think we try to build a lot ourselves.

Pieter: And sometimes I think that’s a really good thing.

Pieter: And sometimes it’s frustrating.

Pieter: So travel is a great one where we’ve built quite a bit travel business within eBucks.

Pieter: Then our currency, so eBucks is the actual currency.

Pieter: We talk about earn and burn.

Pieter: And how do we fund that through the behaviors that we drive for the business that are profitable.

Pieter: And the way that we look at it is that there’s a triangle between us, our partner and the customer.

Pieter: And we need to make sure that each part of the triangle is benefitting and if one part of the triangle benefits to the expense of any other, then I don’t think it’s sustainable.

Pieter: So a big job for us is to make sure that the value for the customer, the partner and for FirstRand is there across the…

Pieter: And then something that I think is in the rewards industry today incredibly relevant is instant rewards.

Pieter: So even though we have this thing called currency, we realize that instant gratification and gamification is really important.

Pieter: So gamification is at the heart of what we do.

Pieter: But the ability to blend a currency and instant is something that I think we’re working a lot harder on and trying a lot more of.

Pieter: We pay out, I suppose, an excess of about 2.4 billion per year in rands to customers.

Paula: Yeah.

Pieter: Yeah.

Pieter: And more than 25 billion to date.

Pieter: So it’s quite a sizable investment from FirstRand.

Paula: Indeed.

Paula: Oh, my goodness.

Paula: I will do the maths for our audience afterwards in terms of US dollars, Pieter.

Paula: But anything that’s got a B for billion is extraordinary.

Paula: And I suppose really shows that you’re living up to that promise that you said that the founders have in terms of giving value back.

Paula: That’s absolutely extraordinary.

Paula: And so congrats on obviously something that’s working.

Paula: That’s just extraordinary to hear.

Paula: And the first thing that really struck me, though, was this idea that I hear a lot coming from South Africa.

Paula: And I guess it’s why I admire you guys so much.

Paula: There really seems to be a business ethos around loyalty.

Paula: Like, it’s never a case where you hear about a South African brand that’s operating a bank or whatever else, and then tries to build a loyalty program at the corner of the marketing department.

Paula: It always seems that, okay, here we are.

Paula: So whether it’s health insurance or banking or grocery, it seems to be something South Africans love and expect.

Paula: And that idea of reciprocity, it seems to be almost core to the culture.

Paula: Again, I’m just kind of hearing what you’re saying, but it is an ethos if I’m hearing you right.

Pieter: I think it’s a cornerstone.

Pieter: And I think it’s embedded in the value articulation.

Pieter: It’s something as a business that we’re working incredibly hard on is how do I articulate to Paula the value that she, one, is getting, but also can get that she isn’t today.

Pieter: So, Paula is leaving some food on the table.

Pieter: How do I help her?

Pieter: And I also think it’s in businesses becoming a lot more competitive.

Pieter: Our founders, who I talked about, who started multiple, multi-billion-ran businesses in South Africa, I think are anchored in putting the customer first.

Pieter: And with the competitive nature of business today, I think if you’re not going to do that, I don’t think you’re going to be relevant for very long.

Pieter: And I think rewards is at the center of that.

Pieter: Rewards is at the center of, actually, this is the value that I’m able to give you for engaging with me.

Pieter: And there needs to be reciprocity on both sides.

Pieter: So, you know, this is the value that I get as a consumer.

Pieter: And the consumer obviously realizes that this is the value that the corporate gets.

Pieter: But we have incredible buying power as large corporates.

Pieter: And to leverage that to make sure we give benefit to our consumers is such a great way of making sure customers get something back.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: And I think that’s actually why I fell in love with loyalty myself, Peter, and not dissimilar to what you said earlier, this idea that you can be loyal to your customers and really take care of them, while at the same time, as you said, achieving business goals and making sure that those behaviors are starting to align.

Paula: And then the partner piece, I definitely want to understand, because I know you’ve got a massive partner portfolio, which is incredibly powerful.

Paula: But yeah, for me, it is that idea that, yes, we’re heart knows business people.

Paula: We do have to, you know, be profitable, but we can be nice.

Paula: And we could give it back.

Paula: And it’s a lovely feeling, I guess.

Paula: So I’m glad you’re back in our industry.

Pieter: Fantastic.

Pieter: Yeah.

Pieter: I mean, you touch on partners.

Pieter: I think partners is such a cornerstone as well to what we do as eBucks.

Pieter: You know, a philosophy that I’ve tried to bring in is, you know, if I feel if you have too many partners, you know, your ability to give value back to them also starts to wean.

Pieter: How much time and energy can you give to them?

Pieter: How much communication, you know, can you invest in communicating about your partner to your customer?

Pieter: So, I think our strategy there has definitely been, you know, almost, we want, I want to say fewer partners, if I can put it that way, just realizing what’s the right amount, but then going very deep with each of those partners.

Pieter: You know, so whether it be a grosser partner that we have at the moment, where we are actually able, as first-rand or as a bank, to have physical presence in their store.

Pieter: So, not only does the client experience the value, but we get the value through other mechanisms, you know, shaping different ways.

Pieter: So, that partner must want us, to a certain degree, to be the top bank in South Africa, and we want them to be, let’s say, you know, a top partner for us as well, and that goes across all the categories.

Pieter: And I think having the right amount, so not too few, but also not too many, I think is core, and then really trying to maintain a strong relationship with the partners is something we’re working really hard at.

Paula: I can tell, absolutely.

Paula: And it is how I got into loyalty myself, Pieter, so I know the commitment, I know the expectations, and I do know the complexity.

Paula: So I’ll definitely be keen to hear a bit about your, I suppose, communication strategy as well, to support all of those.

Paula: But on the proposition side, just again, for our global audience that mightn’t be familiar, I was just going back through it.

Paula: It really is very meaningful.

Paula: So I know you guys are focused as a proposition on this idea of everyday benefits with no joining fee, no subscription fee, your eBucks never expire.

Paula: You can use your bank account to pay and to earn, and cards to pay and earn.

Paula: And the various categories I saw you touching on, obviously fuel, groceries, health and beauty, and obviously then spending in store and online.

Paula: It’s just a very, very well-developed proposition.

Pieter: Yes, I think it’s a proposition that I think has grown over time.

Pieter: And I think as you add different pieces to it, it tends to mature very nicely.

Pieter: I think what we’ve, I mentioned it earlier, but what we focus really hard on and is to make sure that the value back to the business is there, so that they want to fund.

Pieter: And so, you know, we anchor in behavioral change.

Pieter: And behavioral change is hard.

Pieter: It’s hard because you expect a behavior and then you reward the behavior.

Pieter: And that’s not always the easiest thing.

Pieter: Because, you know, clients are not always in the mood for the behavior, or it’s not always convenient.

Pieter: And to get them over that hump almost to actually, I’ve tried it two or three times and it’s not that bad.

Pieter: So a big use case for us recently has been Virtual Card.

Pieter: And how we’ve driven, you know, Virtual Card extremely hard within our business.

Pieter: And we’ve seen the shift towards that behavior.

Pieter: So really anchoring to behavior, Paula, and letting that almost anchor in, what’s the value that we can add back?

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: But also what I’m hearing is that you really are listening to evolving, I suppose, expectations.

Paula: I guess the idea of rewards historically, probably when you started 25 years ago, would have been that collector mentality.

Paula: You know, can I save up, get my free flight?

Paula: You know, the airlines all taught us, of course, the power of inspiration to really get those very aspirational rewards.

Paula: But I guess that really now has to be balanced, as you said, with inwards, I think different demographics, different generations, and perhaps different economic demographics as well.

Paula: Because I know, as you talked about earlier, South Africa has a very broad, I suppose, split of, you know, economic profiles.

Paula: So I guess you have to be able to give somebody, you know, something they can either redeem instantly or they can save for over time.

Pieter: Yes, and we’ve seen that they don’t run, my experience has been that they don’t run in isolation.

Pieter: You know, they work, they’re additive, you know, 101 is three, if you add them together correctly.

Pieter: So if you take your partners and you’re able to offer the greater value in a currency, but also mix it up with different mechanisms for clients to get a bit of instant gratification and reward.

Pieter: And, you know, so it’s, you know, clients behave and I think clients interpret your rewards program in very different ways and are very diverse.

Pieter: So some clients are going to want to save up for that quite expensive flight, whether it’s domestic or international.

Pieter: Other clients, if I can almost take a step back, you know, one of the things that I’ve seen is, clients work so hard and, you know, financial services is, you know, we love it and we are incredibly passionate about it.

Pieter: But, you know, clients don’t necessarily wake up in the morning and go, let me think about my bank account today, or let me go think about my, you know.

Pieter: And so a lot of the behavior that I’ve seen is clients actually using their reward as a, let me buy something fun, you know.

Pieter: Let me buy that trip that I’m really looking forward to, or actually let me go online and buy something that I just, I’ve just been wanting for a while and I haven’t really gotten there.

Pieter: And I don’t really need to motivate it, you know.

Pieter: I’m using my eBucks, so my bank balance isn’t really taking a knock.

Pieter: And so I think that element of bringing that fun and relief and, you know, this like, I’m excited to engage and spend.

Pieter: And actually then getting over the behavior that I have to do to earn it, because I know that, you know, it’s, there’s something nice at the end of the rainbow, you know, rather than just paying fees with it or something like that.

Pieter: There are customers that that’s important, too, and that’s amazing.

Pieter: But I think life is serious enough sometimes that a little bit of fun in between is really good, and rewards play a big part of that.

Paula: Totally, you know, and yes, I think loyalty programs are the perfect way for me anyway, to justify whatever little indulgence it might be that I feel I deserve.

Paula: Again, I’ve been using my credit card, whether it’s for my business expenses, my personal expenses.

Paula: So when it does come to, you know, those points have added up now, then I have zero guilt in time, you know, just going and making sure that that’s something that I, as you said, I can enjoy, guilt free.

Paula: And at the same time, I think there’s also the lovely angle that I know eBucks is very passionate about.

Paula: You know, some people just balance the household budget.

Paula: So there’s also, I think, incredible integrity that you guys have.

Paula: So some of us are lucky enough to have the indulgence.

Paula: Some people rely on it for more fundamentals.

Paula: And that’s something that I think you take very seriously from what I’ve heard.

Pieter: Absolutely.

Pieter: So we recently ran a campaign with one of our Grocer partners, which was Burger Friday.

Pieter: And we realized that Friday evenings was really important.

Pieter: And takeouts can be expensive.

Pieter: I myself found that, you know, I’m spending in Rands terms, we have to do the exchange rate.

Pieter: But in Rands terms, 600, 700 Rand on takeaways every Friday.

Pieter: And worked with one of our partners and came up with the concept of Burger Friday, where, you know, you’re able to offer, you know, four buns, four patties, you know, lettuce, cheese, tomato, you know, for a customer for 50 Rand.

Pieter: You know, so that’s that I mean, I must check the exchange rate, but it’s roughly $2, you know, so that is a great way of saying, listen, let me, it’s so easy to make, you know, putting a patty in a, you know, and it can be, it can be vegetarian.

Pieter: It can be chicken.

Pieter: It can be beef for everybody, but it’s as easy as putting in a pan and five minutes later, you know, you can be having, playing games night with your kids and having a nice meal.

Pieter: So it’s also, it’s a great way of kind of mixing, you know, the basic needs for customers and helping them save and other mechanisms with having a bit of fun too.

Pieter: And that’s where I think the kind of instant gratification with some of the larger points based systems work incredibly well together.

Paula: Yeah, absolutely.

Paula: And as you said, then the partner’s getting, I suppose, the fun element.

Paula: They get to be part of your clients, I noticed you call them, rather than members.

Paula: Is that is that a terminology that seems very intentional as well?

Paula: I wanted to ask you about.

Pieter: Yeah, it probably also just comes from my years in FNB across the various departments that I’ve been in.

Pieter: But yeah, so we, yes, we have eBucks members, and we really want everybody to be an eBucks member.

Pieter: But we try to offer the value as well, even to non-FNB members.

Pieter: So Burger Friday, as an example, is offered to all FNB customers.

Pieter: You know, so just go swipe your FNB card and get the special.

Pieter: So we really try to cater for everybody, even though the members are a big focus point.

Paula: Incredible.

Paula: And you talked about the communications just in passing, Pieter, as well.

Paula: And obviously, I’m a communicator.

Paula: So this is something that I always, you know, wonder how do you manage and master at scale.

Paula: You’ve given us some sense in terms of how you manage that with the limitation of the partners, which I’m guessing includes things like exclusivity in particular sectors.

Paula: And I’m assuming that’s kind of one of the principles.

Paula: But how else do you go about communicating?

Paula: Because I think it’s a big challenge for all of our audience as we listen and talk about programs.

Paula: There’s always that, I suppose, challenge either at the point of sale.

Paula: As you said, we don’t all wake up every morning and think about our bank account.

Paula: And certainly here in the Middle East, you know, retail loyalty is very strong.

Paula: The execution can be very challenging.

Paula: So I’d love to hear about your communications mix.

Paula: I’m guessing it’s pretty, pretty broad, both, I guess, with your own base, but also with your partners.

Pieter: Absolutely.

Pieter: So I think the key is when you have a customer, if you take one of the challenges that we’ve had as FNB, is we have an insure, connect, invest, lend, transact business.

Pieter: Each business is trying to communicate to the client.

Pieter: And you need to avoid this just over emphasis of communication where the client just clutches out and says, you know, thanks, but it’s too much for me.

Pieter: So being the rewards at the back of that becomes really challenging.

Pieter: And I mean, personalization is probably a buzzword over the last 10 years.

Pieter: It’s been thrown around a lot.

Pieter: And I think it’s absolutely key, no doubt.

Pieter: But I almost think for us, the communication is starting really simple, putting the client first and going, what are the top three things that I’d like to tell Paula today?

Pieter: You know, and if I anchor back to what’s most important to Paula and what’s the most value that I can give to Paula, then that becomes a lot easier.

Pieter: You know, I’m not trying to tell Paula about something that’s not really relevant to her.

Pieter: It’s more, you know, I know Paula, these are the three things that I think can add value to her life.

Pieter: And then focusing on delivering that message in a way that I know Paula’s going to get it.

Pieter: Now, that can be by bringing people into your interface and having that communication there.

Pieter: It can be via different mechanisms to approach the client.

Pieter: It can be through the customer.

Pieter: It can be through various different mechanisms.

Pieter: But you have to…

Pieter: Like, I’m thinking more and more about the complexity of rewards and the volume of rewards and messages out there to customers.

Pieter: We’ve up-weighted that function in our team.

Pieter: And we’ve actually made that an ex-co member on the eBucks team just to make sure that we’re getting that communications right.

Pieter: Because I think, yes, having the value, but the inability to talk about it is a massive problem.

Pieter: And then I think that leads to probably one of the big challenges that I think we have is where we’ve got these really good value propositions.

Pieter: But because we can’t communicate it properly, they fizzle.

Pieter: And it’s not a lack of the value proposition, if I can put it that way.

Pieter: It’s the inability to communicate it.

Pieter: And that leads into a bit of a spiral.

Pieter: It leads into a bit of a negative spiral where, so now you exit that value proposition, you’re building a new value proposition, you now have to communicate the new value proposition.

Pieter: And actually, you had something that wasn’t half bad.

Pieter: You just needed to communicate it very succinctly and know who you want to talk to about it, and land that message.

Pieter: So I think communications is a cornerstone of the articulation of the value that you have.

Pieter: And it’s a cornerstone to building the house for us, and a big focus point.

Paula: Indeed.

Paula: Well, the fact that you’ve put somebody on your leadership team, that’s extraordinary.

Paula: I haven’t heard of that being done.

Paula: Not to say it hasn’t been done in other programs, but to elevate that responsibility and make sure, as you said, that those campaigns are absolutely landing with the right people.

Paula: Because I think you’re absolutely right.

Paula: If you don’t cut through and get the message, then, of course, the partner is disappointed, you’re disappointed, and again, you might come to the conclusion that there’s an issue in the program or the proposition.

Paula: But as you said, sometimes it just wasn’t understood.

Paula: So that sounds like a really big innovation just to make sure, as you said, the comms is really working.

Pieter: Absolutely.

Pieter: And linking it to the client experience.

Pieter: Because when you’re communicating it properly and you know you’re landing that message, you’re also testing the experience of the customer out there.

Pieter: Because as they start using it, you’re testing the experience and then it gets into, I suppose, the run of the mill, you know, kind of like tweak, test, go, tweak, test, go.

Pieter: So yeah, fantastic.

Paula: Totally.

Paula: Amazing.

Paula: The virtuous circle.

Paula: Yeah, what we’re all going for, huh?

Paula: So talk to me about other KPIs then, Pieter.

Paula: Obviously, we’ve talked about communications now.

Paula: And again, I think that’s often the poor relation.

Paula: So I’m really glad to hear that you’re giving it that visibility.

Paula: But what other KPIs is eBucks focusing on?

Paula: Again, given your maturity and such a broad proposition, what is it that you’re measuring?

Pieter: So I talked earlier about the triangle where, you know, let’s say first-rand, the partner and the customer.

Pieter: And I think our KPIs really link largely back to that.

Pieter: So what is the value that the client is experiencing and how do they experience that value?

Pieter: So it’s more about, it’s more than just, hey, here’s a mechanism for value.

Pieter: It’s how easy is it?

Pieter: You know, how accessible is it?

Pieter: You know, do clients feel that they can actually tangibly touch the value that you put in front of them rather than it’s the carrot that’s always in front of the horse?

Pieter: Then very specific KPIs with our partners and, you know, and then very specific KPIs within first-rand.

Pieter: So within first-rand, you know, I think it’s making sure that there’s value to clients, making sure clients want to bank with us, making sure clients want to stay with us, you know, making sure that they are driving financial behaviors that are beneficial to them, that their money management is in place, because we know, I think, many, many years ago, financial institutions learned that, you know, you need to walk a long-term journey with a customer.

Pieter: You know, you can’t think one year, two years, you’re thinking eight, ten years.

Pieter: And that’s the way that you have to think.

Pieter: And then to your partners, where, you know, as I said, you’ve got a real commitment to them who are participating in the program with you to provide value to your customers and making sure that those KPIs and the reason that they’re in a relationship with you, if I can put it that way, is you’re delivering on that.

Pieter: And, you know, and those relationships are strong.

Pieter: I think those engagements and relationships are critical to have ongoing and regularly.

Paula: Yeah.

Pieter: Yes.

Paula: Amazing.

Paula: And one, you did tell me earlier, all fair as well, Pieter, if you don’t mind sharing with the audience, is just the scale of your program.

Paula: I should probably have asked you earlier because I know you also have, again, I suppose, you know, a focus on the quality of your members as well as the quantity.

Paula: So I’d love if you could just touch on that and how you think about whether it’s acquiring or driving the engagement of your program, which of course, we’re all trying to do both.

Paula: But just what scale are you at at this stage?

Pieter: So Firstrand has about 14 million customers in total, and eBucks as a program, we’ve got about 6 million active customers.

Pieter: Then we’ve got quality customers and quality metrics under the 6 million, which we measure.

Pieter: eBucks provides value, let’s say, to more than just the eBucks currency customers.

Pieter: Burger Friday is a great example, where that would be applicable across, let’s say, the all 14.

Pieter: And in the currency, we’re able to target that 6 million customer base and really drive that hard to them.

Paula: This is where I always wish I was on the inside, and I could really kind of see the whole, you know, the P&L, the campaign performance, and all that sensitive stuff that we’re not allowed to ask you, just because I could see it’s working.

Paula: And, you know, obviously, very proud that you are of what you’re doing, as you should be.

Paula: So super fun.

Paula: And then I suppose we’re also trying to be, I suppose, very realistic.

Paula: Pieter, you know, nothing’s perfect.

Paula: There are challenges for all of us in our loyalty programs.

Paula: I’d love to get a sense of what might keep you up at night.

Paula: What are you thinking about?

Paula: What are you still focused on that you think you could do better?

Pieter: It’s a very good question.

Paula: It’s a tough one.

Pieter: I think probably a very tough one.

Pieter: I wish there was only one.

Pieter: Just joking.

Pieter: No, so I think, I mean, I think people, people are the cornerstone of your business.

Pieter: And I think, I think the team, you know, there’s a, there’s a social contract that you have with your team and the culture that you drive within your team.

Pieter: And, you know, they, they’re the ones that also put in the long hours to deliver the crazy ideas that we come up with.

Pieter: So I think, I think the team and how to get that right is something I think a lot about, you know, how to structure the business in a way that we’re able to deliver the value back to our partners, you know, as well as FirstRent.

Pieter: FNB, you know, is largely to how we navigate.

Pieter: And, yeah, so I want to say, like, the first one would probably just be the team and just making sure we look after the team.

Pieter: And I think that’s really important.

Pieter: And then the last one is that we were able to stay relevant.

Pieter: You know, that I think that we’re able to leave something behind that, you know, multi-generational, that is very successful, that we’re able to take the business forward.

Pieter: You know, the vision that I found had 25 years ago to where we are today.

Pieter: And if I could meet him and say, look, look at where we’ve brought this thing, that he would be really proud in.

Pieter: And that’s what drives us and keeps us up at night.

Paula: And I think we shared the experience as well, that it’s harder than it looks.

Paula: You know, like building loyalty is not an easy thing to do, huh?

Pieter: I think if you look at loyalty from the outside in and go, hey, it’s a little marketing gig on the side.

Pieter: You know, I think it’s only a mistake.

Pieter: You know, I’ve seen multiple elements across the banking industry and the telco industry.

Pieter: And I must tell you, coming into the reward space, you know, it’s been definitely a journey.

Pieter: The needs of people that you’re trying to satisfy.

Pieter: We’ve spoken a lot today about partners around the business, around customers.

Pieter: And the diversity set, you know, within that, the diverse clients on the retail side, on the business side.

Pieter: How do you make it relevant to them?

Pieter: How do you mix the different types of reward?

Pieter: How do you make sure your partner, you know, is still happy?

Pieter: And one of the keys to that, I think, is just making sure that, you know, the leaders within your business are supportive of what you’re driving.

Pieter: So, you have to get them to taste and touch what you’re doing.

Pieter: So, that’s because, you know, then they become your advocates almost and budgets become, you know, a lot easier if word of mouth is successful.

Pieter: So, it is tough.

Pieter: We mustn’t underestimate, you know, the responsibility of rewards program and the value that they provide to clients.

Pieter: And that value comes with an accountability and a responsibility.

Pieter: So, we’re taking it serious.

Paula: For sure.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: And you alluded to it earlier as well, that the banking leadership team really does hold you to the highest possible standards.

Paula: Again, making sure that it works for them so that they know it works for your members, your clients and everybody else.

Paula: So, the fact that it is treated, I suppose, back to the point about as a business ethos, that everybody needs it to work brilliantly well and puts that expectation on you and your team, as you said, to deliver all of that.

Paula: And clearly it is, surely by the amount of eBucks that you’re giving out to your members.

Paula: So, that’s amazing.

Paula: Tell us about the future, Pieter.

Paula: We’re coming to the end, coming to wrap up.

Paula: And I’m sure you have some more exciting partnerships, campaigns, whether it’s across the whole banking relationships.

Paula: What are you thinking about for the future?

Pieter: I wish I could share all of it.

Pieter: I think the next 12 months for us are going to be really exciting.

Pieter: I think we’ve got some massive topics coming and we’re really excited about those.

Pieter: For us, big topics like simplification, making it easier for customers, making it just a lot more accessible, are big things that are driving us.

Pieter: Our push into the commercial side, our push into more value for our partners.

Pieter: And like I said, the simplification client experiences across our capabilities.

Pieter: I think are leading us to some really, really wonderful innovations that will play out over the next 12 months, which is incredibly exciting.

Pieter: And Joa, hopefully we can have this chat in 12 months time again and talk about some of that.

Pieter: That would be really great.

Paula: Absolutely.

Paula: Well, you’re not the first brand to talk about simplification, Pieter, and I do think it’s really important.

Paula: There’s incredible value.

Paula: And I do think our members really appreciate it because then again, the cut through is there and the engagement just continues that virtuous circle.

Paula: So absolutely wonderful.

Paula: I think the only final point to make then is to congratulate you on all of the International Loyalty Awards.

Paula: Since I’ve been going, I think eBucks has been, you know, sweeping the board so many times.

Paula: So congratulations.

Paula: I know you’ve also won very extensively over the South African Loyalty Awards.

Paula: So you must be super proud.

Pieter: Yeah, it was incredible being in Dubai for the awards.

Pieter: My first time, and being really nervous sitting there and getting the award meant for me personally so much, and I think for the business so much.

Pieter: And I’ve talked about how much our senior leaders, you know, place emphasis on eBucks.

Pieter: So the ability to bring it back and just say, listen, this is for you, for your financial commitment, as well as the hard work that you’re putting into the rewards program, I think meant so much for us as a team and validation for the hard work that the team has done.

Pieter: But to our founders who started this thing, you know, 25 years ago, the one award was the best long-term, you know, award, rewards program, you know, and that’s back to 25 years of hard work.

Pieter: You know, so it’s to them a massive testament of what they’ve put in as well.

Pieter: So it means the world to us and we’ll continue to fight for them as much as possible.

Paula: Incredible.

Paula: Absolutely.

Paula: Well, listen, that’s all the questions I have from my side.

Paula: Pieter, was there anything else you wanted to mention for our audience before we wrap up?

Pieter: No, just good luck.

Pieter: You know, keep the faith, keep pushing as hard as you can and I think you’re on the right topic.

Pieter: If you’re in loyalty and rewards, you’re probably focusing on the right things that add significant value to customers.

Pieter: So keep it up and Paula, thank you.

Pieter: Thank you for a wonderful interview.

Pieter: My birthday is on St.

Pieter: Patrick’s Day.

Pieter: I couldn’t help but over here the accent.

Pieter: So maybe we’ll do a trip to Ireland on St.

Pieter: Patrick’s Day or something.

Paula: But yeah, I’m available for consultations for any input, of course.

Paula: And yes, St.

Paula: Patrick’s Day, actually around the world.

Paula: We’re very, very proud.

Paula: We’re a small nation that I think punches above our weight.

Paula: You know, five million people on the island, but actually 80 million people worldwide claim to be Irish or of Irish descent.

Paula: So there you go.

Paula: So that’s wonderful to hear.

Paula: And as I said, happy to consult at any time.

Paula: So, Mr. Pieter Woodhatch, CEO of eBucks Rewards, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Pieter: Thank you.

Pieter: Thank you very much, Paula.

Pieter: And thanks to your audience.

Pieter: All the best.

Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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