#416: South Africa’s FNB eBucks Rewards is the biggest winner at The International Awards

Johan Moolman is CEO of FNB (First National Bank)’s eBucks Rewards.  eBucks is 23 years old and has recently scooped three prestigious awards at the International Loyalty Awards, including ‘Best Long-Term programme’ worldwide.

Johan has been CEO of this leading retail banking programme for eight years and in this insightful podcast, he describes the obsession with doing the right thing for the customer, which has yielded over $1bn pay out since inception.  90% of eBucks rewards are redeemed within the first 30 days of being given to eBucks members.

The programme actually operates nine separate programmes to meet the demands of sub-segments of the South African market.

Hosted by Amanda Cromhout.

Show Notes:

1) Johan Moolman

2) First National Bank

3) eBucks Rewards

Audio Transcript

Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an Industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I’m Paula Thomas, the founder of Let’s Talk Loyalty. Today’s show is hosted by my colleague Amanda Cromhout, the Founder of Truth and International Loyalty Consultancy firm based in Cape Town, South Africa. If you work in loyalty marketing, make sure to join Let’s Talk Loyalty every Tuesday, every Wednesday and every Thursday to learn the latest ideas from loyalty experts around the world.

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Amanda: Hello, I’m Amanda Cromhout from Truth, and today I have the absolute pleasure of welcoming back to Let’s Talk Loyalty, Johan Moolman , who is the CEO of eBucks Rewards from First National Bank in South Africa. eBucks actually runs nine different rewards programs. It’s basically a program for everybody across the vast demographic mix of South Africa.

They build their own tech from an amazing digital team from the bank for eBucks and the partners. It’s a collective of the bank driving together to help the customer, whether they’re transacting, ensuring, financing car or home, or mobile. All of these pieces come together into eBucks Rewards. 

Johan is passionate about driving the right behaviors and rewarding accordingly. At the end of the day, they’re trying to drive financially fit activities for the consumer in South Africa. Over the time the eBucks has been in the marketplace for 23 years, they have given out more than a billion US dollars worth of value.

So Johan, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty. I know it’s not your first session with us, so we’re super excited to have you back. Thanks for joining us. 

Johan: Hi Amanda. Good to be back. Appreciate the time. 

Amanda: So lots has happened since we, since Paula actually interviewed you in January last year. And, some of the structure of this opening of the Let’s Talk loyalty show has changed. I think we always used to start with the question over, what’s your favorite loyalty statistic. Today I am gonna put you on the hotspot and say, what’s your favorite loyalty program? 

Johan: So Amanda, I’d like to say eBucks, but I argue so.

Amanda: You’re not allowed to.

Johan:  That won’t go down well. But, I must say, over the last year the Clicks program has really, really done exceptionally well and is one that I personally really enjoy. I think they’ve get the redemption right, you know, when you’re in store, at the toll. And then, I think they’ve also done a great job with their fuel rewards. And I, and I think those two have stood me in good stead.

But they really get that their program is so spot on at that point of Truth, you know, when you, you actually feel that you’re being rewarded. So really, hats off to them and I think they’re doing a great job. 

Amanda: Oh, it’s amazing to hear, and it’s certainly not the first time Clicks has been mentioned as the favorite loyalty program, so I’m sure the executive team will be delighted.

And I think, you know, we had Melanie on the show about four or five months ago, and she did an incredible interview about Click’s success story. So that’s wonderful to hear from a personal point of view, but also professionally; we all know how well that brand is doing in the loyalty world. So great. What a lovely recommendation.

So I think Johan, you may have shared this with Let’s Talk loyalty last time. So just to get everybody up to speed and to understand you and a little bit about what brings you to be CEO of eBucks Rewards, tell everyone a little bit about your, your career to date. I did hear a question actually the other day asked to you. Are you a banker or are you a loyalty professional? 

Johan: So, so Amanda, I guess I’m a bit of both. I’m very fortunate. A couple of weeks ago, I celebrated 20 years at First National Bank. So I’ve been in this banking and reward space for quite some time. I was very fortunate, you know, to work on the customer side of banking and to also look after the debit card and payments portfolios and mobile payments and digital for FNB. And then say the last eight years moving into, into the reward side.

And I think, you know, having the customer view, having the tech view, the payments experience, understanding that those points for customers has stood me in good stead in the reward side. But then again, you know, I think we are very fortunate at FNB that we’ve got an incredible team. So definitely, a team that I lean on heavily and who are all experts in their own right, whether it’s from marketing department management to financial modeling to tech, and I think it’s the great team that has together yielded these great results and allowed for the achievements that eBucks have achieved.

Amanda: Yeah, thank you for saying that again. I have heard you say that previously in other forums and I think it’s great to hear that credit allocated to the broader team, but yeah, thank you for sharing that.

So you were with Paula in January 2022. I mean, the world is changing so quickly for you in the eBucks environment and the loyalty environment; what’s changed and since you last spoke to the Let’s Talk loyalty audience. 

Johan: So I, I think customer in South Africa, you know, just the world that we’re in, where load shed, where we don’t have electricity for eight to 11 hours a day, has become our norm. You know, we do find that customers are really, you know, having a tough time out there. You know, interest rates have increased dramatically. So, so the man on the street is really having a tough time. What we have seen then is that reward and loyalty programs in South Africa has just become so much more important, and helping customers even more to get through the month.

And that many customers are actually budgeting on their rewards to get through. So we’ve seen engagement, you know, going through the roof in our program. We’ve also been very fortunate that, you know, since last chatting to Paula, we’ve launched a number of lifestyle value propositions, which were brand new to the market, where we’ve seen incredible traction on, I mean, you know, just from 12 months ago, you know, 40, we’ve got almost 300 million unique interactions on our, on our app, with 47% of those now being for these new lifestyle value propositions that we launched. So whether it’s, you know, education, or security or gaming. You know, something that’s not necessarily part of rewards, but that does enhance your life. It’s absolutely incredible. So, you know, we’re adapting our program to still help customers with their daily needs, but trying to also extend that further into their daily lives. 

Amanda: Yeah, lovely. And thank you for sharing that stat me, 47% of app users actually engaging in this new proposition. I’ll come onto that a bit later ’cause it actually fascinates me. But thank you for sharing the changes.

I think, I don’t think you need too much of an introduction because a couple of months ago you flew to London to receive three awards for eBucks Rewards at the International Loyalty Awards. Now, I don’t know if you know this, but no other brands stood up there three times on the night. So we had some great South African victories that night, and I’m sure you’re extremely proud to walk up on the stage three times.

So you have mentioned a little bit about how the world has changed and the impact on South Africa, but what do you think really helped on the international stage for eBucks to get recognized so, so grandly and so rightfully, 

Johan: So, again, I think very fortunate, and just thank you for all the judges over there. I think, you know, there’s quite a number of things. I think we are in a very fortunate position that we get to build our own tech. It’s quite difficult at times to work with vendors when the ran is at 2020 ran to the dollar. So I must take off my hat to the bank and the digital teams for, you know, allowing us to have a platform that we can not only build on ourselves, but also integrate with our partners.

And then, secondly, we are very fortunate that as a bank, the collective of the bank, whether it’s different business units or segments, really buys into the program and really buys into helping our customers. So, you know, we are fortunate. We are 23 years old. We will next month would’ve paid out more than 20 billion ran to our customers with, you know, with our monthly payouts, more than 90% of eBucks gets used within the first 30 days. So it’s highly engaging. So the tech has helped with that engagement. So our partners, you know, we sit with tier one partners and the best, in brand in South Africa. So collectively, you know, this has helped eBucks make a success.

But I think, you know, being able to bring in the different parts of the bank, whether it’s transact, credit invest, insure, our mobile MVNO operator, car and home, financing. You know, getting everybody to buy in and putting that forward to a customer where no matter what they do, they get rewarded wherever they are just makes it relevant for a customer. 

Amanda: And I do remember the discussion as one of the judges around your entries were exactly that, Johan, in terms of, so thank you for sharing that cause I, as a judge wouldn’t have permission to share it. But, the fact that you are pulling together this bank wide proposition, you’re not just the credit card rewards, transactional rewards program. It really is bringing together the entire bank. 

And you walked away as well with the long, best long-term program recognized by globally, not just in your region. And I think there, that’s recognition of the fact that you are, as you said, 20, the companies 23 years old. You haven’t just been doing this for a couple of years. It’s been a solid strategy and proposition that FNB clearly backs, clearly supports. And a great example to the loyalty world around how the rewards program and the main mother brand, if I can call it that, work together for the better good of your customers. So that’s fantastic. You’ve shared that and that is certainly what the judges, what appeal to the judges in those final decision making allocation of awards.

 You and I have had many a debate over the years around what is the difference between a rewards and a loyalty program. I personally don’t spend too much time worrying about the definitions. I think it’s all a bit academic, but I think there is a difference in how you see the world for your, for eBucks Rewards. So please share with us your view of that. 

Johan: Yeah, Amanda, I think we’ve had this conversation times, and that’s why we call it eBucks Rewards and not loyalty. So we actively have to drive behavior change across the different subsegments in our customer base, whether it’s retail customers, commercial customers, or even corporates. I mentioned, you know, next month we would’ve paid out more than 20 billion rand, since inception. And, today we pay out more than 2 billion rand per annum.

And this money’s gotta come from somewhere. So we’ve been very fortunate, you know, that we understand our customers really well. We understand our profitability and our costs really well, but we have to reward customers that do change their behaviors. And we obviously try and drive good money management principles, so we reward customers more, for the more they have with us and the more they, they, come onto the behaviors that we’re driving, whether it’s driving cash to card or more digital interfaces, or using our platforms to book their travel or to get their credit from or to check their credit scores. So we are really passionate about, you know, driving the right behaviors and the more of those behaviors that you do, the more you’ll get rewarded.

So I understand, you know, loyalty it’s like, do I just come to you over and over and over? But we actually really want to make sure that our customers are financially fit. That they can retire safely and securely, at the end of the day, after many years of hard work and to help them where, wherever we can, you know, if it’s, whether it’s helping them or their families, but really rewarding them, you know. 

Johan: For saving that. Yeah.

Amanda: For being with FNB. You mentioned 20 billion rand. I don’t, I’m not sure the world of Let’s Talk Loyalty, listeners understand the exchange rates. So that’s a billion dollars payout. That’s correct. So a billion dollars payout since inception, and then if I, if my maths are correct, a hundred million dollars a year payout is what you’re currently rewarding the FNB customer with. So that just puts into context. So it’s absolutely gargantuan numbers.

Johan: And Amanda, I think there, we’re still proud of, you know, since inception. eBucks is still a free program, so we don’t charge customers fees to join the program or to be part of the program. It remained free. Your eBucks don’t expire. So since inception we’ve never expired eBucks and touch wood, we never will. It’s still 10 eBucks to their end. 

And, I think we’re in a very fortunate position, that we didn’t have to change this and that customers know what they’re going to get when they come to us. Also very fortunate, when eBucks started, we built one of the first e-commerce platforms in South Africa back in 2000.

And our eBucks shop is doing tremendously well, even compared to big competitors that do this for a living day to day. And then we’ve also got a great travel platform. So we really try and help our customers in every single part of their daily lives. 

Amanda: So if we talk a little bit about the eBucks shop and the travel platform, ’cause both, you know, I’m a user of both frequently. You are absolutely right. They are in their own right. E-commerce, value propositions, competitive with standalone non rewards platforms. So do you have any stats how they perform against the traditional e retailers or online travel portals, or is that just something you can pick up from your own? You know, member performance on them. 

Johan: Yeah. So,so look, we obviously look at our FNB customer spend. And, very, very happy to say that, you know, over the last, let’s just take Black Friday for example. You know, the last three years or four years, on Black Friday, we’re the second biggest online store in the market.

And, and, and we all, in all South Africans, we all know that the big take a lot, is number one. But it’s nice to be able to compete on a very important day of the year and beat some of the guys that do it for a living. Not saying that we’re always better, we are just maybe very fortunate that our customers come to us first many, many times.

But then I must also say, you know, where we perhaps don’t have the range of product or just can deal with this sheer volume because it’s not our day-to-day business. We’re also very fortunate to partner with the likes of Takealot and allowing our customers to spend their eBucks over there. So we don’t see it as competition. This is about giving the customer what they want, when they want it, and allow them to use their rewards as they choose.

Amanda: I was about to say, even though Takealot may be the number one online retailer in the country, you can still use your eBucks with Takealot and other online portals as well. 

Johan: A hundred percent. 

Amanda: And for the audience who don’t know Takealot, Takealot would probably kill me for saying this, so I apologize in advance, but they’re almost like South Africa’s Amazon.So that’s the closest comparison we’ve got because we don’t have Amazon directly in the country. 

Johan: Correct. 

Amanda: So yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. That’s an incredible stat on Black Friday being the second biggest online store. And of course, you can pick that up from your own data, which is fascinating.

You’ve often talked about, I’ve often heard you in the press or even in our discussions, you’ve talked about this magic number of 90% of eBucks issued are redeemed within the first 30 days. That is an enormous number, and I really, you know, it’s great to see this encouragement of redemption. You know, I always say the days of breakage are long gone, thank goodness.

Can you tell us a little bit of how that’s changed over the years and what’s driving that, driving such a quick redemption at 90%. 

Johan: So I must say, you know, since I joined, like eight years ago, we were sitting at just over 80%. And I think it’s testament to a great partner network that has been built up over 23 years.

I mean, we’ve partners with the biggest grocery chain in South Africa, the biggest pharmaceutical, pharmacy chain, the biggest fuel retailer out there then, you know, take a lots in on online. So I think this ecosystem of partners that customers can spend their eBucks, almost anywhere, whenever they want to for daily needs has served us well.

I think this digital revolution, you know, eight years ago we didn’t have an app. You could only see your eBucks balance, you know, but today you can, you can spend your eBucks on platform, in the FNB app, you don’t have to go to eBucks.com. So all our customers have access to that and they can pay their bank fees with it if they choose to, they can buy airline tickets.

And then again, I think the mere fact that the customers are experiencing difficult times. And really using eBucks as part of their budgets. You know, you make sure that you are performing these behaviors because you can get, you know, a good couple of thousand rands back, on top tiers, which makes a difference, you know, and being able to buy that extra bag of groceries every month, being able to put that extra tank of gas in, you know, really makes a difference.

Amanda: Makes a real difference. I mean, you do, you did mention earlier about inflation rates and so forth, or interest rates, but I mean, coming away from the UK a couple of months ago and just listening to the industry, as a whole, this is a pressure point in the whole world. 

We do have spoke challenges here in South Africa. I think you mentioned one of them called load shedding. Which really is, it’s terrible. Like we are sitting often with eight to 10 hours of darkness, no electricity every day in its worst time. And, but we’re, it’s a resilient, we’re a resilient nation and what comes through is this way of making things work, and you’re obviously offering that additional way to make things easier for customers. And customers pick that up, like they’re able to redeem and make it go further, which is great. Absolutely great. 

Johan: Yeah. And, and Amanda, we mentioned it, well I mentioned it a little bit earlier. You know how we introduced lifestyle value propositions last year and just the great take up rate.

So as you mentioned, you know, many South Africans are having it really tough. So when we launched, you know, some of our educational value propositions, which isn’t dependent on a reward level of what you earn back, you know, but where you can provide, you know, Udemy courses for a fraction of the cost so that people can start side hustles and upskill themselves. 

Right on the FNB app where you can provide, you know, online tutoring and classes for kids. Gaming, you know, not everybody over here can afford an iPad or a device and let their kids game securely just effect, you know, security, armed response buttons, you know, things that aren’t linked necessarily to, to earning and spending, but that you are getting as part of this, being part of the program. 

You know, cause not everybody’s got the same spending power. And I guess that’s why we saw a lot of the traction, you know, we’ve got audio books and invested heavily in that for our customers just to listen and escape some of, you know, the difficulties that they’re in or just learn more about their, their country. So, you know, very proud of that and trying to be more than just the reward program. 

Amanda: That’s wonderful. Practical response to last year in the Truth and Brand Map Loyalty White paper we released in 2022. We saw for the first time education facilities coming into the top set of rewards that customers want.

We, you know, so your response to that, we saw it more prevalent for the less wealthy customer wanting that within the top five of their benefits. Wealthier customers pushed it down the ranking a little bit, but the fact that you’ve, I’m not sure you acted on the white paper. I think you had it in place before then.

But the fact that these results are coming through really shows that South Africans want better ways of, you know, if you think about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, there is a survival mode at the bottom of the pyramid to get through the month, but there’s also self-actualization through extra education and, for side hustles or hobbies or, helping your kids get through their math homework. So wonderful to see, and thanks for sharing such great stats on this. 

So, you know there’s an amazing tool within the eBucks app around actually tracking your results as a member of the program. I’ve used it and I always kind of tell myself off a little bit for not doing better, and earning more because I actually could if I paid more attention and listened to this, this app, or this tool every month.

So tell us a bit about it if you can. Cause I know it’s been a game changer in the sense of helping customers understand the way they can navigate through the program, and secondly, in terms of actually changing product behavior within the bank.

Johan: Amanda, look, we are very fortunate. You know, we’ve got a number of tools I think you’re specifically referring to Track My Rewards. For customers, for listeners that don’t know, we’ve got a tiered reward program from level one to five and more behaviors you perform, across 10 or 10 different categories, you move up, reward level and get to the higher earn rate. 

So we’ve actually simplified that, and we show it to our customers proactively on our FNB app. Actually, we let you level up and earn more points just by going to the tool on a monthly basis. So we actively tell customers what behaviors they have performed so far during the month, and we up update it almost on a daily basis. We actively show them, you know, what they can do and where they can move up in reward levels. And in that, is where we link into our online sales processes. So whether you want to get a new sim card with us or take up an additional product. 

And what’s great is, you know, customers visit the tool to see how they can maximize their rewards. And we expected it somewhat, but not much, probably to the extent that we thought, but by link direct linking it into our sales processes. We’ve seen incredible uptake of product because if you take up the product today, you know, touch wood tomorrow, your rewards profile will be updated and you can get a good guesstimate of the additional reward that you will earn in the next month. So that has proved, you know, really to be a great, you know, and it’s also, you know, trying, taking a program that potentially is complex and simplifying it for a customer so that they can understand it and understand how to move up reward levels. 

And then, you know, we added a little bit of, Just showing customers where they’re missing out on rewards. So if you, if you don’t shop at a partner, we’ll tell you how much reward you could have earned if you switch your spend to a partner and also if you level up. So, you know, this tool has proved and proven to work really well. I remember the days when customers said, but I can only read your rules and see what we do on a website.

But now that it’s available, by a couple of clicks on the app and that you can action it almost immediately. It’s worked really well and we do encourage our customers to level up because we know and understand the value and the long-term benefit of having customers earning eBucks, spending eBucks, and being with FNB.

Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I personally receive, as I think it’s a bit obvious from my commentary about understanding the program as a user. I bank with FNB. So I also get your SMSs that I could have earned more eBucks if I’d shopped at a different merchant. And it does make me stop and think like, why did I actually switch my spend necessarily? Or next month I can do better. And I also love that, from a business banking point of view, with business eBucks, I get the, why don’t you use your business eBucks for your business banking fees and so on. So that kind of touch actually makes a massive difference. 

I mean, any company’s ever worked with us at Truth know that we are obsessed with what we call member engagement in terms of, it’s not the program rules or the program design that will get you across the finish line. It’s how you communicate it and engage with the customer so they understand at all times what’s going on. And I think this is playing out in not just a push communication from what you’re saying, but from customers, clients going to you through the tool itself on the app to actually get the interactive experience there and then.

I wanted to touch on another area, and we did, we did mention earlier, a little bit about the South African sort of challenges at the moment, but also one of the things maybe not everybody understands is, well, South Africa can come across as very much a first world organized, a first world country.

There are massive third world challenges and what is in there is the wealth gap. You know, we have a huge wealth gap. We have a terrible level of poverty and unemployment. And that companies such as yourself and some of your partners, you mentioned clicks earlier, you know, have to be able to meet different ends of the market spectrum of salaried, or poverty lines.

So how on earth do you do that? How do you approach that? How do you service all customers in the marketplace with one loyalty program? 

Johan: Yeah, so, so, man, look, it’s a challenge. You know, but I think it’s a challenge that we South Africans take on that we try to you know make sure our program speaks to everybody. We’re not just a bank for the elite, and stick to our principles of being a free program accessible to anyone. 

I think in that, you know, you talked about, you know, one program. But, but we don’t have one program. We’re called eBucks Rewards. We’ve got a program per sub-segment. So there’s a program for mass market, say not so wealthy customers so that they can get benefit. And because they obviously don’t have the same spending power as say, a middle market or high worth individual. And we’ve got these nine different programs that run across our retail and commercial businesses that will suit anybody.

You know, the relevant income, income gap. So, you know, for mass market where perhaps you focus very specifically on groceries and free airtime and data, you know, all the way going up to wealth where you can earn 40% back on flights and get discounts, etcetera. 

You know, I think being, it’s very important that customers know that they can achieve their rewards. Because if it’s not achievable, you know, you, we don’t wanna, you know, just, you know, put out smoke and mirrors over there. But I think to be relevant per subsegment and being able to reward equitably across the entire customer base is very important in any reward program. And I think that is a massive part of the success that eBucks and the team has had.

Yes, sometimes it’s difficult to communicate because when you do communicate program changes, you’re effectively talking about nine different programs that are changing and everybody sees a whole bunch of changes and thinking, okay, but what applies to me, what doesn’t? But as soon as we can communicate more directly with customers, then the changes aren’t that big, but very important that we’re a program for everybody. And that, it’s free for everybody, and that it’s achievable and relevant for each subsegment of customers. 

Amanda: But whilst you say, there’s nine different sets of changes, for example, in the annual program rule changes because you have nine different programs for the different sub-segments of the marketplace.

The actual consumer only really experiences one because, you know, I’ve received the private wealth or the private clients or whatever segment I sit in. I don’t receive all nine of them. I don’t go searching for all nine of them cause that that isn’t how I, you know, I only see what I need to see because that’s the product that I hold with the bank.

That’s correct. Right. So I don’t, it’s based on the product holding of the bank. So you, the customer understands that. They don’t have to guess where they are. 

Johan: Correct. And then what’s even what’s also great is there’s a continuum. So as you move up and as you move through your life stage and your life cycle, and how you earn potentially more money as you get older and become more financially literate, then the behaviors start changing you know.

And the reward change was there. And the quantum of rewards changes as well. We believe that all our customers are important. We’re not, we don’t just have one set of rules that everybody needs to adhere to cause it has to be achievable. If we put, behaviors out there that aren’t achievable and that don’t understand the economics of sub-segment, we’ll run into trouble quickly.

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. So I just wanted to conclude actually, but before I do, I’ve got a quick sort of conclusion I wanted to pull together, but is there anything else I’ve missed, Johan, that you think would be amazing to share with the audience? 

Johan: I think the reason why we’re in loyalty, you know, we, you mentioned about you know, South Africans being competitive. And yes, we like going up against other banks and other financial service providers, but I think the programs that really, I believe make a difference over here, like you said, looks after all segments of the market. I strongly believe that we as corporates and business, have a big responsibility in South Africa to give back to our communities and to give back to, to our customers, and, and to run good and sound businesses.

So, you know, we could not run this program without putting our customers first. And, you know, continuing with that, we couldn’t run this program without exceptional partners that  help us fund the program and help us drive the behaviors that we want to do. And we obviously couldn’t do this without the support, of the larger, of the larger bank.

So eBucks is in our DNA. But yeah, a big strong belief that we as corporates can do a lot, to alleviate a lot of the pain that us South Africans feel. 

Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is where as an industry, we, you know, everyone often asks me, why is South Africa doing so well in loyalty terms?

Like, what, what is it about the market? And it’s a mature loyalty market. We’ve been saying it for a while. And I think it is because of this need to better serve the population rather than it to be better serve your own brands. South Africans it’s a community environment. You know, the spirit of Ubuntu, which is a wonderful African expression. 

And so I think that there you’ve summarized it beautifully. It’s not just about servicing the bank and you’ve put that very clear that the bank understands the role of eBucks and you work together with the bank, but it’s how you work with your partners to better, and the bank to better serve the customers in South Africa.

So in conclusion, thank you for those insights. Like it’s, I could just carry on chatting for a very long time, but we’re gonna run out of time. So I would like to conclude that your role that you’ve led your team, but you, you know, on behalf of your team you received from the International Loyalty Awards, three awards. One being the Best Use of Technology in Loyalty, and one being the Best Program in the Middle East and Africa Regional Program.

And I think I, may I dare to say this on your behalf. I don’t know; correct me if I’m wrong, but the Best Long-Term Program in the World was something you picked up. 

Johan: Yeah.

Amanda: So, but we do know the South African Loyalty Awards, which is an entirely separate competition, so to speak. It’s coming up and there, therein lies great competition. Like there are some phenomenal programs throughout the whole of South Africa in every category. And it’s fiercely competitive, so we really hope we get to see. We do see every day in the industry the best of the best. And, but congratulations from everyone, particularly from everyone at Let’s Talk Loyalty for picking up those three very prestigious awards at a prestigious event of the International Loyalty Awards.

And I think more importantly, thank you for sharing the insights with the audience of Let’s Talk Loyalty. Thanks Johan. 

Johan: No, thank you Amanda, and I appreciate the opportunity.

Paula: This show is sponsored by The Loyalty People. A global strategic consultancy with a laser focus on loyalty, CRM, and customer engagement. The Loyalty People work with clients in lots of different ways, whether it’s the strategic design of your loyalty program or a full service, including loyalty project execution.

And they can also advise you on choosing the right technology and service partners. On their website, The Loyalty People also runs a free global community for loyalty practitioners, and they also publish their own loyalty expert insights. So for more information and to subscribe, check out theloyaltypeople.global.

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