#175: eBucks South Africa Wins Best Loyalty Programme of the Year 2021 AGAIN!

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.

PAULA: Thank you.

PAULA: Hello and happy new year.

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, and welcome to 2022.

PAULA: I don’t know about you guys, but I am super excited for the year ahead.

PAULA: So let’s get started.

PAULA: First of all, I wanted to mention for any of you who didn’t hear, that I’ve made one change to the show this year, and that’s the opening question.

PAULA: So many of you know, since I launched in 2019, I’ve always been asking my guests what is their favorite loyalty statistic.

PAULA: So after 175 episodes, I’ve decided to change that.

PAULA: And instead, I’m asking my guests what is their favorite loyalty program rather than their favorite loyalty statistic.

PAULA: My hope is that will inspire all of us to hear about lots of other inspiring loyalty programs that we can learn from.

PAULA: And certainly, I think today’s show does exactly that.

PAULA: It features a South African program that’s been running now for 21 years and has certainly gone from strength to strength.

PAULA: eBucks has won a multitude of awards, including being recognized as the number one loyalty program that South African people say they couldn’t live without.

PAULA: It’s even more impressive for those of us who believe that South Africa is actually probably the most mature and one of the most innovative countries in the world for its loyalty leadership.

PAULA: And financial services is certainly one of the categories that’s leading this.

PAULA: So without further ado, I’d like to introduce the CEO of eBucks South Africa, Johan Moolman, who shares some of the brilliant principles and ideas that have made eBucks such an iconic program.

PAULA: So, Johan, joining me today from South Africa.

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.

JOHAN: Thanks for having me, Paula.

JOHAN: I appreciate your time.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: How is life in Pretoria?

PAULA: I think that’s where you’re based, isn’t it?

JOHAN: Yes, it’s absolutely great.

JOHAN: We’re in summer now, so it’s nice and warm.

JOHAN: We’re not in a lockdown situation at the moment, so it’s a touch wood that loss, but we’re very blessed, great weather, great people.

JOHAN: We’ve got a good business and we’re very fortunate down here at the tip of Africa.

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: And you definitely have a great business.

PAULA: And I also want to let listeners know that actually your program, the eBucks program has won what I can tell is practically every loyalty award that’s available in the whole country.

PAULA: So I just want to say a huge congratulations.

PAULA: We’ll get into the detail, but you must be so proud.

JOHAN: No, thanks very much.

JOHAN: And I appreciate it.

JOHAN: Look, it’s a program that’s been around for 21, almost 22 years.

JOHAN: So I can’t take all the credit.

JOHAN: Just a big lot of recognition has to go to everybody that’s come before us.

JOHAN: That’s enabled us to do this.

JOHAN: So I guess we’ve got that for a short while and we’d like to leave it in a better place than what we had before.

JOHAN: And it’s a privilege to be able to help our customers.

JOHAN: So hats off to the team, to the rest of the bank and our partners and our customers at the end of the day.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: So let me get into my usual first question, which, as I said to you off air, has changed because we are going to be releasing this bright and early in January 2022.

PAULA: So there will be two opening questions for you today because I want a whole new vibe.

PAULA: So let’s start with the one we’ve always used.

PAULA: What is your favorite loyalty statistic, Johan?

JOHAN: Paula, I’ve got plenty.

JOHAN: But I guess the first one is that in the last financial year, we paid out more than two and a half billion rand of rewards to our customers.

JOHAN: And that’s significant.

JOHAN: When you think about it, it’s a program that is free to our customers.

JOHAN: eBucks don’t expire, so we don’t play that old breakage model game.

JOHAN: And if you think about it in a business, when you can take away close to 10% of your profits and give that back to your customers, and they use it, what 90% of eBucks get spent within the first 30 days of being given to customers.

JOHAN: So we’re very fortunate, like I said, it’s taken 21 years plus to get us here, and to remain relevant, and to be able to help our customers on a daily basis is humbling.

JOHAN: So I think that’s probably the quantum, and how big the program is is great, because many people have got programs, but I think that we’re very fortunate that we can scale it and be able to touch so many different people’s lives.

JOHAN: So that for me is…

PAULA: Extraordinary.

PAULA: Absolutely incredible.

PAULA: And certainly breakage is a hot topic for every loyalty professional, Johan.

PAULA: And it’s always hard to know, I suppose, what’s the right level of engagement and spend for any currency.

PAULA: So what I’m hearing coming through from you is that the higher the spend, the better.

PAULA: Absolutely extraordinary to get 90% in 30 days.

PAULA: And I think in the 21 years, it gets up to 93% overall.

PAULA: I saw in some documents you sent me.

PAULA: It’s an incredible number.

JOHAN: Look, we, I’m not going to lie, we want our customers to earn as much eBucks as what they can.

JOHAN: Because ultimately, we would say loyalty, but it’s a behavior change program.

JOHAN: So it’s how do you drive good banking behavior?

JOHAN: How do you drive good money management principles?

JOHAN: And ultimately provide it to a customer on a safe and secure platform where you’ve got trust.

JOHAN: And I think that word trust is what everything is about.

JOHAN: So being transparent, trying to make things easy for customers.

JOHAN: I would always say that you always hear loyalty programs or reward programs, it’s the jumping through hoops, et cetera, et cetera.

JOHAN: But you’ve got to try and make it as easy as possible and not hide it in the keys and seats.

JOHAN: And then you build up trust and then touch wood eBucks and we’ll still be around in the next 21 years.

JOHAN: And it is leading the team then as the privilege of, you know, being able to tell how we’ve changed our customers’ lives for the better.

PAULA: For sure, for sure.

PAULA: So because it’s 2022, Johan, you have the honor and privilege, I hope, of answering my new favorite opening question.

PAULA: Just I felt it was time to, you know, mix things up a little bit and get into understanding what you, as a loyalty professional, admire in other loyalty programs.

PAULA: So I guess the question that I’m going to be asking, as I said, you’re the first one, what is your other favorite loyalty program other than eBucks?

JOHAN: Other than eBucks, look, I’d be biased if I wouldn’t say it’s eBucks, and we’re also very fortunate that it is rated as South Africa’s most favorite and used a loyalty program.

JOHAN: I don’t bank or have financial services with a competitor, so I unfortunately can’t mention them.

JOHAN: But we’ve got a partner called Kuwai.

JOHAN: It’s a fresh food and smoothie, a small restaurant group in South Africa.

JOHAN: I can’t say small, they’re actually quite massive.

JOHAN: And they’ve got absolutely great product at a great price.

JOHAN: And their loyalty, whether it’s either subscription for coffees or smoothies, or the number of times that you go back, I think they’ve got a great platform.

JOHAN: And it’s not just because they’re one of our partners as well, but I think the way that they use their tech, how they engage with their customers has been absolutely great.

JOHAN: And it’s simple, you trust them, it’s a great product.

JOHAN: And if you can keep it simple like that, then you’re on to a winner.

JOHAN: So I really take my hat off to Dean and the team at Kawhi.

PAULA: Oh, wonderful.

PAULA: Okay, brilliant.

PAULA: And actually, I did a show with Kawhi with Roz to talk about the subscription program, because again, it’s a hot topic.

PAULA: And I’m sure as we go through 2022, there’ll be plenty more people jumping on that particular bandwagon.

PAULA: But listen, back to eBucks, tell me, Johan, I know you’ve been working with FNB, the bank itself, even before taking on the CEO role.

PAULA: So I think of what a total of, is it nearly 18 years between the two?

JOHAN: Yeah, hard time flies.

JOHAN: Yeah, it’s close to 18 years.

JOHAN: I must say, very privileged to have been here for that amount of time.

JOHAN: Had a number of different roles within the bank.

JOHAN: And must say, enjoy the environment, enjoy what the bank stands for.

JOHAN: We’ve been through a lot, and the culture is just amazing, and it’s a privilege to work with people that really want to help our customers.

JOHAN: So hopefully they don’t chase me away, or I don’t go and break something.

PAULA: Sounds like it’s all working.

PAULA: So tell me, Johan, then, what is your philosophy on loyalty?

PAULA: So you’re leading this program, and I’ll just quote actually one of the particular awards or recognition that eBucks received, which really reminded me, I’ve been meaning to get you on the show for such a long time, but obviously our friend Amanda Cromhout, in truth, does this extraordinary white paper to look at the whole market.

PAULA: And I think her favorite question, I’m guessing your favorite question as well, is she always does ask, you know, what is the program that South Africans can’t live without?

PAULA: So I think you guys got that for the second year in a row.

PAULA: So FNB eBucks topped that ranking table.

PAULA: So South African customers literally can’t live without you.

PAULA: So please share what is the kind of philosophy that gives that kind of extraordinary adoption?

JOHAN: Look, I think since day one, you know, and that’s why I said thanks to the people that came before us.

JOHAN: It’s about helping customers, you know, and we in the bank and eBucks, we’re all about transparency and trying to make things better for our customers.

JOHAN: So we want to help.

JOHAN: So whether it’s, you know, a customer that perhaps, you know, is in one of our lower earning subsegments, or whether it’s a customer in ultra high net worth, it’s about being relevant to a customer.

JOHAN: It’s about being transparent, not hiding everything in the T’s and C’s.

JOHAN: Look, I’d most probably, we all know about the hoops that customers need to jump through.

JOHAN: But when you partner that in a behavioral change program, where you drive sound money management for a customer, because we want our customers to be well off, you know, we don’t want them to get into unnecessary debt or credit agreements that aren’t good for them.

JOHAN: We want customers to save.

JOHAN: So when you take all of those principles and you package that together, and you can add reward to it on a single and trusted platform, where it shows you the customer, but you don’t have to get this here and another thing over there, come to one place, it’s one relationship.

JOHAN: One rewards program where you earn almost for everything that you do, you start improving customers’ lives, not only their lives, but their families as well.

JOHAN: And then we’re very fortunate, we work in quite an interesting bank.

JOHAN: So we obviously do the transactional stuff and the credit stuff, but then you talk about investments, insurances, we’re an MVNO, so we sell iPhones and our own SIM cards.

JOHAN: So we can provide the data and all of that to it.

JOHAN: But what’s great about it is it’s about help.

JOHAN: So you asked about the philosophy when you put the customer first, and you want to do what’s right for the customer, then chances are you’re going to win.

JOHAN: Profits and all of those things will come later, but that’s not the main driver.

JOHAN: And your program has to be suited for that.

JOHAN: So spend quite a bit of time on our digital platforms to try and make things easy.

JOHAN: I know we don’t get it right all of the time, but we constantly try and improve.

JOHAN: I’d be lying if I said we don’t break things at times, that customers at times feel done in.

JOHAN: But I think that shows that customers are passionate about this brand, eBucks.

JOHAN: They’re passionate about the rewards that they get because it actually helps them.

JOHAN: So, you know, we’ve said what, two and a half billion rand in the last year since inception, I think it’s more than 16 billion rand.

JOHAN: You know, that down here in South Africa is an incredible amount of money.

JOHAN: And, you know, I think the philosophy is if you want to help, like we don’t sit in the office and see, okay, but where can we, you know, save a little bit here or save a little bit there?

JOHAN: It’s about if a customer is banked well, you’re going to be happy, and you’re going to be well-off, and you should be rewarded for that.

JOHAN: So it’s pretty simple.

JOHAN: A lot of words for a very simple philosophy.

PAULA: But it’s incredible how rare it is.

PAULA: I genuinely, I mean, you know, we’ve all worked in or at least witnessed the potential for, let’s call it even, greed in the corporate world.

PAULA: And I’m using that word because I recently interviewed Fred Reichelt, and I don’t know if you know him, but he’s the creator of Net Promoter Score.

PAULA: So for somebody who has built his entire career on making customers so happy that they will recommend you to their friend, it’s just that same philosophy I’m hearing coming through.

PAULA: And he’s just really released a book.

PAULA: And the first thing I noticed about it is the word love came up constantly, which in a business context was really amazing.

PAULA: But exactly like you’re saying, Johan, he talked about how many lives can we enrich.

PAULA: And that’s the only philosophy that he has, that I can hear that eBucks has.

PAULA: And it’s certainly the reason I got into loyalty.

PAULA: And at the end of the day, yes, we’re all business people, and we need to know.

PAULA: I don’t understand the rand conversion, so forgive me, but anything, any currency in the billions has to be extraordinary.

PAULA: But I think it comes through, Johan, for example, when you talk about, you mentioned it earlier that eBucks don’t expire.

PAULA: Like, I wanted to just ask, was that a change of philosophy, or has eBucks always had that philosophy that they would never expire?

JOHAN: So, very, very happy to say, you know, it’s been there since inception.

JOHAN: Right?

JOHAN: So, since day one, when eBucks launched, eBucks don’t expire.

JOHAN: Ten eBucks is still equal to one rand, so there’s that…

PAULA: Not devalued either.

JOHAN: It hasn’t devalued.

JOHAN: And, you know, we’ve got more than 40 partners where you can spend your eBucks.

JOHAN: So, when I said, you know, 90% of eBucks get spent within the first 30 days.

PAULA: Yeah.

JOHAN: That’s if you want to put in fuel, if you want to buy airtime, if you want to buy an airplane ticket, you know, all these things are available, not only at our platform, but our partners as well.

JOHAN: You talked about a stat earlier, like one that I’m also particularly proud of because you can come on to our banking app and we’ve got, what, six, six and a half million customers on our banking app.

JOHAN: You know, in South Africa, that’s the proper size.

PAULA: Yeah.

JOHAN: You know, the fastest airplane booking or a ticket booking was 22 seconds all the time from going into the, logging into the app, selecting your flights, paying for your flights.

JOHAN: And it’s about security and trust.

JOHAN: You know, you don’t have to put in your personal details.

JOHAN: You don’t have to put in your family details.

JOHAN: Why?

JOHAN: Because the bank already has that.

JOHAN: You don’t have to put in your car details.

JOHAN: Why?

JOHAN: Because the bank already has that.

JOHAN: So that 22 second number is pretty cool.

JOHAN: We sell thousands of flights a day to our bank customers.

JOHAN: You know, qualifying eBucks customers get a special deal.

JOHAN: It’s nice, like you said, to do great stuff for your customers.

JOHAN: Another cool stat is, you know, customers that do qualify for eBucks, less than 1% of them ever leave the bank.

JOHAN: So your attrition numbers are, you know, it does its job over there.

JOHAN: And I’d lie if I’d say, you know, many of the other institutions in South Africa don’t copy us.

JOHAN: And you know what, it’s great if they do.

JOHAN: It’s probably good for their customers.

JOHAN: But here’s, you know, what I also believe is, you know, we talked about philosophy.

JOHAN: And look, I’ve never worked for one of those organizations.

PAULA: The nasty ones.

JOHAN: I wouldn’t know what their philosophy is.

PAULA: Yeah.

JOHAN: But, you know, their stuff expires.

JOHAN: They charge monthly fees.

JOHAN: I don’t think that’s always necessary.

JOHAN: But in any case, that’s their business.

JOHAN: We can only control what we control.

JOHAN: And we’re about more rewards for more customers.

JOHAN: The more you do with us, and the more you trust us, the more we will look after you.

JOHAN: And it’s about a lifetime.

JOHAN: We want some stuff for seniors.

JOHAN: So what’s cool about the program, sorry, I’m scrabbling on, but it’s a subsegmented program.

JOHAN: So it’s not one program for all customers.

PAULA: Okay.

JOHAN: Because it’s a tiered program, and level one is your lowest tier, level five is the highest tier, with the highest rate of rewards, etc.

JOHAN: But in each income bracket or segment, we effectively have a different program.

JOHAN: Because customers are different.

JOHAN: Customers from all income segments can get on the top tier of rewards.

JOHAN: So it’s not a program that says, okay, cool, we’re going to discriminate against the less wealthy because you need X, Y and Z.

JOHAN: It’s one program for everybody.

JOHAN: And I think that stood us in good stead in time.

JOHAN: We’ve always been a bank and a program that talks about value.

JOHAN: We have to give proper value back to a customer.

JOHAN: If you don’t provide value, then you’re not going to be in this game.

JOHAN: So we’ve been fortunate to build this with our partners.

JOHAN: As I said, we’ve got more than 40 partners on the podcast and the program.

JOHAN: Our customers, they’ve been incredibly loyal through this journey.

JOHAN: If I had to think where FNB and eBucks was and what the program was 20 years ago to where it is now, I know it’s incredible to see that journey, and it’s humbling.

JOHAN: At the end of the day, again, if you can help customers, and don’t treat all customers.

JOHAN: It sounds weird, but when it says don’t treat all customers the same, it means don’t discriminate.

JOHAN: Give everybody a fair chance, and if you’re relevant, then customers will respond.

JOHAN: If you’re not, well, then they won’t.

PAULA: Big responsibility, Johan.

JOHAN: I know, luckily, I’ve got a great team with me.

JOHAN: They make my life easy.

PAULA: For sure.

PAULA: And I loved that you mentioned the partners, Johan, because obviously South Africa doesn’t really have a coalition program in the same way as maybe the UK or other countries would have.

PAULA: But what you are giving is that breadth and depth of both earn and burn.

PAULA: I think that’s extraordinary to have that level of literally real-time redemption of eBucks, even in your partner stores, if I’m right, in understanding.

JOHAN: That’s 100% correct.

JOHAN: We’re a bank, so we…

PAULA: Yeah, we got the data.

JOHAN: We can understand customers’ behavior and their data pretty well.

JOHAN: But eBucks has always been about being able to earn and burn for your day-to-day spend.

JOHAN: And obviously, like I said, the more you have with a bank, the more you earn.

JOHAN: And it’s on categories that are important.

JOHAN: So whether it’s groceries, we’ve got the largest retailer in Africa, ShopRite Checkers as a partner.

JOHAN: Still, we’ve got Engen, it’s the largest retailer in South Africa.

JOHAN: And those are definitely not all, but it’s some of the great ones.

JOHAN: And here’s the thing, if you as a customer go around and you know everything that I’m doing is ultimately going to benefit me, and I can use that whenever I want, however I want, then you’re in a very fortunate position.

JOHAN: So look, I think the fact that many of these partners haven’t chased us away is hopefully showing that we make a difference in their lives, because ultimately, yes, I think you know well, getting the eBucks spend or part of that two and a half billion Rand spend into your environment is one thing.

JOHAN: But switching customer spend on their respective debit and credit cards, that’s where the real behavior shift happens.

JOHAN: So we’re very fortunate as a bank, I think in South Africa today, in the card space, about 33-34 percent of all card spend is FNB spend.

JOHAN: And in the online spend, it goes to the 40 percent mark of card spend.

JOHAN: So our customers change behavior based on what they find as value.

JOHAN: We always try and partner with the number one or the number two player in a specific segment.

JOHAN: So partners have been absolutely great.

JOHAN: We couldn’t have done this without them.

JOHAN: And they’ve helped us to provide good value to customers.

JOHAN: So I think this ecosystem has been, it’s all about a value ecosystem.

JOHAN: It sounds very MBA-ish.

PAULA: Well, you know, why not?

PAULA: I think you have an MBA.

PAULA: Did I see that in your profile?

JOHAN: I think they gave me a few papers here.

JOHAN: My dad had to pay them a lot of money to give me those things.

JOHAN: But I think that ecosystem is important.

JOHAN: And I think that’s going to, we’re working on quite a few initiatives at the moment that we’re going to launch next year.

JOHAN: And I can’t tell you how excited I am, because we’re going to do like world firsts.

JOHAN: And that’s what’s nice, because I think that, you know, the environment allows us to be creative, to be innovative, to try things.

JOHAN: And I guess, you know, that’s what’s nice about being in the bank that we are, we’re allowed to do things like that.

JOHAN: Look, there’s never say there’s no red tape.

PAULA: I can imagine.

JOHAN: We encourage our people to do things to help our customers.

JOHAN: And if you make a mistake, great.

JOHAN: Everybody will be hands on deck to fix it.

JOHAN: But when you get things right, it’s a beautiful thing to watch.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: I mean, it’s so rewarding, I can imagine, you know, watching it unfold, watching the adoption of every new innovation.

PAULA: And I was doing a bit of research, obviously, before today, and I did even see that FNB is the oldest bank in South Africa.

PAULA: So you guys have always been innovative.

PAULA: And the original bank was 1838.

PAULA: I thought that was amazing.

JOHAN: Yeah, I think it’s, what, 180 years plus.

JOHAN: So, you know, I said it before, we’re very fortunate that for this.

JOHAN: Time that we are the pole bearers or the flag bearers.

JOHAN: Flag bearers.

JOHAN: And we’ve got a responsibility towards, you know, our customers, number one.

JOHAN: So that’s, you know, that’s where our priority is.

JOHAN: But also the people that have come before us.

JOHAN: And we all would like to leave the organization in a better place than what it was.

PAULA: Sure.

JOHAN: For those that will take over from us.

JOHAN: So we just got to have fun while we’re here and try and make a difference.

PAULA: I don’t think anybody’s actually articulated it so well, Johan, because if there’s anything any of us would want to do, you know, when you think about your job and your career, like actually having fun, it usually comes, well, I think it’s actually it’s usually forgotten.

PAULA: But you guys seem to have so much fun with the eBucks program.

JOHAN: We definitely do.

JOHAN: We definitely do.

JOHAN: I’d lie if I say there weren’t some tears shed every now and again.

PAULA: I’m sure there’s pressure points.

JOHAN: I think it’s about, you know, people are passionate about what they do, and we believe in what we do.

JOHAN: So, you know, there’s room for a lot of debate.

PAULA: Which is super healthy.

JOHAN: As you can imagine in a bank, we also have a lot of staff on our program.

JOHAN: We always have to challenge ourselves as are we building the program for ourselves or are we building the program for our customers?

JOHAN: But you got to have fun now.

JOHAN: I mean, we spend so much of our time here.

JOHAN: I always joke with many of my colleagues.

JOHAN: They make money, and the team and I get to give it away.

JOHAN: Best job in the world.

JOHAN: I think eBucks isn’t a profit driver.

JOHAN: I mustn’t lose money, but I don’t need to make money.

JOHAN: It’s my job, and the team’s job to provide value to customers.

JOHAN: I think that’s also, because it’s 21 years old, it’s part of our DNA.

JOHAN: We’ve had many banks either from the UK or Australia or the US come visit us and say, yes, but how do you do this?

JOHAN: How do you just take 10% of your profits and give it back to customers without charging for it, etc.

JOHAN: We show it to them, we believe it’s transparent.

JOHAN: Anybody can go on to our website or app today and see exactly what we do per subsegment, what we offer.

JOHAN: It’s not a secret, but in a way, there is a secret because it’s in our DNA as to how over 21 years people have built to trust it.

JOHAN: The 2.5 billion rand that we gave away, somewhere we’ve got to create the value, by allowing customers to bank better, whether it’s digitally saving costs over there, cross-selling, increasing VSI, attracting new customers, that money needs to be created from somewhere.

JOHAN: In this cost-conscious world, it’ll most probably be easy to say, hey, we’re going through a tough time.

JOHAN: Now all of a sudden, these other programs, you cut the value of the reward in half overnight because you change your TFCs.

JOHAN: And that’s just not what we’re about.

JOHAN: So it’s about creating value.

JOHAN: That’s why we call it a reward program and not a loyalty program.

JOHAN: The more you do with us.

JOHAN: The more you’re going to get back for those daily activities.

JOHAN: That’s fun.

JOHAN: That’s a lot of fun.

PAULA: So just on those KPIs then, Johan, you’ve talked through if there is no revenue line objective for the program, which again, music to my ears, is the business case then mainly focused on the retention that you mentioned earlier?

PAULA: So if less than 1% ever leave the bank when they’re members of eBucks, that surely alone would drive the business case, or is it a mix of more than that?

PAULA: Is it the cross-sell-up-sell piece?

JOHAN: So I think good money management, and money management is a lot of things to different people, and I think that’s where the program really drives it well per sub-segment because at different stages in your life, you need different things.

JOHAN: And if I ask you for the wrong thing at the wrong stage of your life, I’m going to get you into trouble somewhere.

JOHAN: You don’t want troubles because then you get tough economic times, and then customers get into trouble, and if your customers are in trouble, well, then you struggle in business.

JOHAN: So when I say we drive good banking behavior, we want customers to have sound financial lives, to be in homes, to be able to retire, to be able to bring their families in.

JOHAN: So retention is one, obviously attract new customers.

JOHAN: And then the cross-sell, those things happen due to good money management principles.

JOHAN: So the goal is not to say, yes, I need to cross-sell X amount of product because there’s a revenue opportunity there.

JOHAN: The goal is to say is, but yes, a bunch of customers that need a proper retirement plan, because if they don’t, they’re going to be in trouble.

JOHAN: And there’s different ways to incentivize customers, and eBucks acts as one of those incentives.

JOHAN: And then we obviously go on our program, and lots of the tech and stuff.

JOHAN: I can give you the rules on a website, but I can give it to you on the app.

JOHAN: I can allow you to take up product, cross-sell, and get you to level up in those tiers almost instantaneously.

JOHAN: Let you see where you’re tracking in your rewards for the month.

JOHAN: So I think the more transparent that helps.

JOHAN: And again, if you’re driven by help and money management, then I think the profits will look after themselves.

JOHAN: Otherwise, I would have to be a salesperson.

PAULA: That wouldn’t suit you, Johan.

PAULA: I don’t think so.

JOHAN: I think people would do me in.

PAULA: But I liked what you talked about the progress part, Johan, because I saw some of the screenshots of the app.

PAULA: And to be able to see, which in my mind is probably gamification.

PAULA: I don’t know if you used that term for it, but to kind of see progress indicators, this is what you can earn and this is how many tasks you’ve achieved, one out of 20, or that gets the competitive nature going.

PAULA: And I know you said to me before, South Africans are quite competitive.

JOHAN: No, we’re a competitive bunch.

JOHAN: And I think we punch above our weight, I guess, in most instances.

JOHAN: But I think those data tools, I mean, it’s all data that’s available to everyone.

JOHAN: So let’s give it to our customers and, like I said, make it transparent, make it easy to use, because you can have a very complicated program, but if you present it to a customer in a simplified manner, well, then you overcome that hurdle.

JOHAN: So a lot of time and effort has gone into that.

JOHAN: And we’ve received, you know, we’re very fortunate.

JOHAN: We’ve always pushed the digital strategy extremely hard in FNB, and got our customers, you know, to adopt these safe platforms.

JOHAN: Because it’s all about trust at the end of the day, and we’ve got to present information and data that customers can trust us with, and not try and pull the wool over their eyes.

JOHAN: Like I said, I would love, I’m very lucky I’ve got a team of actuaries and financial modelers that are hell of a lot more clever than me.

JOHAN: But we want our customers to earn more eBucks.

JOHAN: We want our customers to spend eBucks.

JOHAN: We want it.

JOHAN: I’m definitely not in the movie of, I don’t get a budget in the beginning of the year and get told, okay, eBucks, this is what you’re allowed to spend, go and fit it in there.

JOHAN: It’s about how do you drive that?

JOHAN: And that link between behavior and reward is key.

JOHAN: There’s another bank that recently launched in South Africa and they talked about what being the first behavioral change bank in the world and all of those good things.

JOHAN: And it’s incredible to see.

JOHAN: Always just in the back of my mind, I say, okay, but we’ve been doing this for 21 years, so welcome and it’s good for competition and that.

JOHAN: And you know what, it’s fun.

JOHAN: South Africa has got 120 plus different rewards and loyalty programs.

JOHAN: So it’s competitive.

JOHAN: You said we’re a competitive bunch, so we like to give each other a go over here.

JOHAN: But if partners and customers win, why not?

JOHAN: I mean, that’s part of the fun.

PAULA: It totally is.

PAULA: Well, listen, on that note, Johan, I do feel like I could talk to you for at least another hour.

PAULA: So forgive me that I just think we’ll have to do a second follow-up show.

PAULA: I think you have some incredibly exciting things that are coming up in 2022, which we’ve obviously just kicked off.

PAULA: So I’ll be dying to hear more about those.

PAULA: But tell me before we wrap up, is there anything else you wanted to highlight from an eBucks perspective?

JOHAN: Paula, I think for me, the biggest highlight is, I think the team that we get to work with is incredible.

JOHAN: Our partners and our customers, that’s why we’re here.

JOHAN: And it’s nice to be able to know it.

JOHAN: And it’s humbling.

JOHAN: It’s humbling and fun at the same time.

JOHAN: And hopefully, again, hopefully you don’t hear from me the next time if something breaks.

PAULA: Listen, it’s a fabulous story, Johan.

PAULA: I have to say I’m very inspired by the work that you’re doing.

PAULA: As I said, plenty more to talk about in the future.

PAULA: But just want to close by saying congratulations again on all the incredible awards that you’ve won and all of the extraordinary work you’re doing.

PAULA: So Johan Moolman, Chief Executive Officer of eBucks Rewards, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

JOHAN: Thank you, Paula.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.

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