#258: Web 3.0, Crypto-currencies, Metaverse and NFT's - Loyalty Insights

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.

PAULA: This episode is sponsored by Epsilon.

PAULA: Today, I’m delighted to announce a unique opportunity for one lucky listener of Let’s Talk Loyalty to enjoy a complimentary workshop with the loyalty experts at Epsilon.

PAULA: One brand every month will have the chance for a unique independent loyalty lab, a review of your loyalty program, where Epsilon will share their expert ideas how to drive your program’s performance to a whole new level.

PAULA: This workshop is a powerful way for you to measure and then increase the return on your investment in your loyalty program.

PAULA: So to apply, head over to letstalkloyalty.com forward slash epsilon and enter your details.

PAULA: Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: Are you wondering about Web 3.0, blockchain technology, cryptocurrencies, the metaverse, and NFTs?

PAULA: And more importantly, what their potential could be for your loyalty program?

PAULA: Web 3.0 is one of the hottest topics in business and society right now.

PAULA: But I, for one, am certainly finding it very challenging to know whether the hype around these is justified or is simply that, hype.

PAULA: Joining me today to share his passion for all things Web 3.0 is Stuart Evans, a strategy advisor and a proud proponent of disruptive thinking, with a passion for understanding and playing with new and emerging technologies that excite consumers and really engage them.

PAULA: If you’re working in loyalty marketing, I know you’ll enjoy my conversation today with Stuart Evans.

PAULA: He’s an inspiring thought leader who joins us to simplify the facts from the fantasy.

PAULA: And if you’re brave enough, he also shares some ideas to get started playing in the wonderful world of Web 3.0.

PAULA: So, Stuart, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.

STUART: Thanks, Paula.

STUART: Delighted to be here.

PAULA: I feel like it’s long overdue, Stuart.

PAULA: We’ve been talking about these wonderful topics for a long time, but we’ve never recorded them, huh?

STUART: Yeah, it’s…

STUART: I don’t even know if it’s something I’ve got to say that’s interesting to people.

STUART: So, maybe there is, maybe there isn’t, we’ll find out.

PAULA: We’ll definitely find out.

PAULA: And of course, I always find it fascinating.

PAULA: I always think of you, Stuart, as the font of all knowledge when it comes to Web 3.0.

PAULA: So, we’re going to test that today.

PAULA: We’re going to put you on the spot.

STUART: When I get described as an expert, I typically turn around and say there aren’t any, because the stuff that I work in is moving so fast, you can’t be an expert in this stuff.

STUART: So, I may learn no bit more than the next person, and I try and keep up to speed, but definitely not an expert, and learning as fast as I can.

PAULA: Okay, well, thank you.

PAULA: And actually, that’s a distinction I also make.

PAULA: I tend to prefer the word specialist, because I do think there are things I specialize in, and therefore have some knowledge to contribute.

PAULA: So, yes, I like that distinction.

PAULA: So, we’ll call you a specialist.

PAULA: So, with all of that background, Stuart, we are here to talk about all to do with Web 3.0, but we’re going to start, as usual, asking you about any favorite loyalty program that you, as a loyalty specialist or Web 3.0 specialist, what is it that you, I suppose, admire and respect at the moment in the middle of 2022?

STUART: Gosh, okay.

STUART: Well, as you know, I think Web 3.0 is something that people say is a misnomer.

STUART: There’s many naysayers in the marketplace.

STUART: Is it going to be a thing?

STUART: Is it related to loyalty?

STUART: Is it actually real in any shape or form?

STUART: And therefore, I have to quote, I guess, the program, a loyalty program run by the browser Brave, which was created by the founder of Mozilla Firefox.

STUART: And in a Web 3.0 context, what they allow you to do is to be tracked or not tracked when you do your browsing.

STUART: And if you are tracked, they will then monetize that tracking, as Google does today.

STUART: Uniquely, they will then reward you back, and they reward you back with crypto tokens called BAT.

STUART: So, Basic Attention Token.

STUART: And they launched this program a few years ago.

STUART: And today, they are running about 55 million customers, collecting BAT token for browsing, using the Brave browser, and controlling and monetizing their own data.

STUART: And if you wanted a Web 3.0 example of why things are different in Web 3.0, controlling and monetizing and ownership is exactly what you need to do.

PAULA: Totally, totally, that is a wonderful example, Stuart.

PAULA: So thank you for that.

PAULA: I had not realized it was operating at that scale.

PAULA: I think we all kind of end up in our own little filtered world, like I use Google Chrome, so therefore I assume the rest of the world does too.

PAULA: And clearly it is the dominant browser.

PAULA: But Lordy B, 55 million, that’s absolutely incredible scale they’ve achieved.

STUART: When you talk about Web3, let me mention before, my favorite words I learned from somebody else is, you know, decommers Web3 is community driven and is not captive and extractive.

STUART: It’s not about, you know, billionaires going to taking joy rides to outer space.

STUART: It’s about community driven, owned and operated by the community.

STUART: So it’s actually a mindset that’s different as opposed to the technology underneath more so.

PAULA: Yeah, I think that is something that you’re the only person who’s explained that to me.

PAULA: I think what I mentioned to you Stuart is the first time I heard of this concept was, you know, the world famous inventor of the World Wide Web, Timothy Berners-Lee, who did speak at Web Summit quite a few years ago now and talked about this mindset of, you know, the freedom, I think, to create and communicate, to use some of your other wonderful words.

PAULA: But who would you, I suppose, attribute?

PAULA: Do you think this is something that human beings are driving in terms of our preferences for a new way of being in terms of our digital experience?

PAULA: Or can it be connected back historically to somebody like Tim Berners-Lee?

PAULA: Or what would you say the origins are of Web 3.0?

STUART: Oh, I think it’s, I said it’s a social movement.

STUART: I think you can look at, you know, the, I think it’s again 50 plus million daily active users of roadblocks, you know, whether they’re 13, 14 year olds, what they’re allowed to do is to go into their game space and create anything they like, do anything they like and go anywhere they want.

STUART: So the freedom, and I think the Web 3.0 space is about choice, freedom and control.

STUART: And it’s a social movement.

STUART: And I think it comes from crypto natives, people who have grown up thinking this way and acting this way.

STUART: It’s come up from gamers who have access to freedom in the games they play, which are very non-prescriptive these days.

STUART: And it’s a backlash against, e-commerce was captured by the big guys and therefore captured in extractive.

STUART: And there’s a backlash against it.

STUART: People are launching protocols to stop that happening.

STUART: And I’ve worked on some of those where people are saying, the reason for doing this is to allow freedom of community, movement and commerce across a network and not have somebody take control and make it theirs.

STUART: If you wanted to give an example of exactly what Web3 is not about, Facebook capturing the word meta is exactly anti-Web3.

STUART: It’s exactly the opposite.

STUART: And that’s why there’s a massive backlash against Mark Zuckerberg and his Zuckerverse and what he’s trying to do there from the Web3 community.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And what about it fascinated you, Stuart?

PAULA: I know you’ve been studying this now.

PAULA: I think you told me since 2015.

PAULA: So why was it that you were so fascinated?

STUART: Oh gosh, I read a magazine, actually.

STUART: It was Wired magazine.

STUART: And it said that Bitcoin is a programmable open source currency.

STUART: And having spent at that point, 20 plus years in loyalty, I thought I could take that.

STUART: I can change the value proposition for customers.

STUART: I can improve the techsec underneath.

STUART: And I’m pretty sure I can improve the commercials for both customer and business if I could use something like that.

STUART: That was my starting point.

STUART: I spent 2015 learning and reading as much as I could.

STUART: I attended the launch of Ethereum DevCon 1 in November, where they were live coding green screen on the big picture.

STUART: I actually did the maths just now.

STUART: I think I tried to buy $1,000 of Ethereum, or ETH, as it was, as it is.

STUART: At that point in time, I just looked up the price, it was 42 cents, and this has done a million percent appreciation from now.

STUART: It would be worth about $10 million today had I done that.

PAULA: Oh dear.

PAULA: Well, I can only say, I’m sorry to hear that Stuart, that you should be a 10 times millionaire by now.

STUART: And since then, we’ve been trying to use and learning, and the way to learn, I think, is to try and do.

STUART: And a lot of people talk, and I think what we’ve been trying to do with lots of different companies and clients is, how do we make this work?

STUART: How do we try and do this?

STUART: How do we use crypto, blockchain, NFTs for different things, different ways?

STUART: And I think most importantly, what I’ve said to people is don’t solve existing problems with new tech, solve new problems with new tech.

STUART: Because old thinking on new tech is expensive old thinking.

STUART: We need to actually break out of the mindset that we think we understand programs and customers and go forward into the Web3 nature and come back therefore to look at loyalty today.

STUART: So I haven’t tried to move loyalty forward.

STUART: I’ve actually stepped away from it to come back at loyalty from a Web3 mindset and perspective and see what we could do differently.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: Well, I’ve no doubt there’s some extraordinary examples of what can be done differently and what is being done differently, Stuart.

PAULA: But I do like what you said, you know, just about, you know, individuals, for example, and again, we talked about this when we met last time.

PAULA: To me, there are so many conversations.

PAULA: These are the buzzwords.

PAULA: Everybody wants to be involved in Web3.0 or seem to be at least testing, learning.

PAULA: I think there is the appetite in certain companies, let’s say the more the braver kind of companies.

PAULA: But I always feel like I don’t know where to start as an individual loyalty marketer who is curious, I would say, and has never bought any crypto.

PAULA: I did consider buying a Bitcoin, I think in 2017 when I realized all the cool kids were doing it.

PAULA: And then somebody told me it was $6,000 for one at the time.

PAULA: So that kind of shut me up pretty quickly.

PAULA: And I’ve lost track.

PAULA: I know it’s been all over the place now in recent months.

PAULA: But to take it back to its simplest Stuart, for the audience listening, as you know, I think, first of all, anybody listening to Let’s Talk Loyalty has a love of the loyalty industry.

PAULA: So would really value your expertise and speciality to go back to our former wording over the last 20 odd years.

PAULA: But if somebody like me doesn’t have a clue about Web 3.0 Stuart, what can I do to educate myself?

PAULA: Like, where should I start?

STUART: Gosh.

STUART: Well, one, reading.

STUART: And there’s a lot of stuff written.

STUART: But actually, it’s not necessarily on LinkedIn.

STUART: So the Web 3 movement actually operates on Discord.

STUART: So find projects that you like and go and follow their Discord and get involved by seeing what people are posting through the official channels and the unofficial channels on Discord and Twitter.

STUART: So it doesn’t really operate on LinkedIn as much as a traditional business does.

STUART: I think the way to learn is to do.

STUART: And I think whether it’s sitting in a business and trying to launch a project, as people have done, and they learn the hard stuff, because it’s not easy.

STUART: But also as a consumer, I mean, it’s dead easy now to link something like a coin based wallet, put a few dollars in there and go and buy some crypto.

STUART: And by the way, it’s probably not a bad time to be buying right now.

STUART: Had I said that last week, we’d be even better because Ethereum is up 30% in a week.

STUART: So that’s not a bad return in a week, which is interesting because that also shows why consumers are interested in crypto, too.

STUART: There are use cases in the states where pensioners are cashing in their 401k retirement pension pots and putting it into Bitcoin because they’re seeing this appreciate.

STUART: And of course, it can depreciate as well.

STUART: But the volatility of crypto, potentially, particularly a market flow to crypto, is what drives consumer attention.

STUART: That’s what people are interested in it.

STUART: Yes, it’s gaming.

STUART: Yes, it’s gambling.

STUART: I completely agree.

STUART: But we’ve got to look at that and go, but that’s interesting.

STUART: People are bored.

STUART: How could we use that to get their attention?

STUART: And that’s what loyalty is about at the end of the day, isn’t it?

STUART: Creating value, creating tension, creating engagement.

STUART: And people are engaging with crypto in a way that we should be able to replicate that and use some of that learning in the stuff that we do.

PAULA: You know, I think you’ve nailed an insight right there, Stuart.

PAULA: I was literally talking with somebody just here in the Irish market, generally about the programs and whatever.

PAULA: And, you know, we’ve also been talking about the UK, which again is a market I admire for lots of the work that’s done there.

PAULA: And clearly I’m passionate about innovation, and it’s one of the reasons I have this show.

PAULA: But the conversation that we had was actually, we do feel that there is a lot of fatigue, a lot of boredom.

PAULA: And, you know, we’re not just thinking about Web 3.0, you know, for the sake of it, you know, to do something different.

PAULA: Like, I think the market needs something exciting.

PAULA: And I think that the volatility, as you said, is absolutely right.

PAULA: That’s one concern.

PAULA: And that comes back to whether that individual has, I suppose, the discipline to manage their assets in the marketplace, I would guess, which I wouldn’t know.

PAULA: But what was occurring to me as you were talking about that as well, Stuart, is like my first concern as an individual when you talk about a coin based wallet.

PAULA: So pretty sure I could Google that and figure out how to get involved.

PAULA: But are there fraud risks that I would need to take maybe a separate credit card to make sure that my crypto exposure, like I have some negative association with them, with cryptocurrencies in general, that I would almost like, you know, wonder, can I start with my current credit card and just get going?

PAULA: Or are there basic kind of fraud principles that apply in Web 3.0 that are different?

STUART: Yeah, I mean, there’s loads, of course, and caveat emptor.

STUART: I think, you know, be aware of what you’re doing and only only risk what you can afford to lose.

STUART: I mean, let’s let’s get down to the basics.

STUART: This is gambling effectively, putting money into crypto.

STUART: But I think my point was about, you know, trying crypto, you know, what you would have seen in a 30% appreciation is your heartbeat would have gone up.

STUART: You got excited about that this week.

STUART: And that doesn’t happen if you got loyalty points sitting in an account that don’t go anywhere.

STUART: So I think, yes, of course, there’s, you know, concerns and there’s lots of things about making sure we come on to, you know, things like energy concerns and green challenges with Bitcoin.

STUART: But I think, you know, the point is go try these things, go find out, keep it simple.

STUART: You know, I just bought an NFT this morning.

STUART: I spent $500.

STUART: It wasn’t expensive.

STUART: And I know what I’m doing.

STUART: I know why.

STUART: We’ll talk about it in a minute.

STUART: But yeah, it’s a bit of fun.

STUART: And just go play.

STUART: I think that also as an individual play, I think as a company, there’s also ways of playing.

STUART: And, you know, is anybody going to move their entire loyalty points portfolio onto blockchain?

STUART: No, nobody’s going to move billions of dollars of points onto blockchain.

STUART: No CFO is going to sign that off.

STUART: It’s just not going to happen.

STUART: Maybe a new startup might start on blockchain and prove it.

STUART: And that’s what BAC did.

STUART: But there are ways of using blockchain technology underneath, which we’ve talked about before, has a number of capabilities within running a loyalty program, which is better than traditional tech, arguably.

STUART: The crypto itself has an interest for both customers and also in a peer to peer network as a currency movement of value between different partners.

STUART: NFTs, yes, there’s the crazy art stuff, but actually there’s a bunch of capability coming down the pipe and technology around NFTs that makes them really interesting from a membership point of view.

STUART: And there are membership examples out there.

STUART: And then we get to metaverse over the top, which is where you can create basically unbounded experiences.

STUART: And what do customers want post pandemic?

STUART: They want trust, they want value, and they want experience because they want transparency and trust for things that they’re clear on.

STUART: And value, because they’ve all been sitting there doing web shopping, and they want to make sure they get the best price for two years.

STUART: And experience because they’re bored.

STUART: And we have the opportunity within Web3 to create a whole bunch of different mechanics, these different layers, using blockchain underneath as a technology, using crypto as a tool for particularly for value transfer and storage.

STUART: NFTs for me is actually a tool for value capture and creation, which is interesting.

STUART: And then metaverse is a space where you can create experiences.

STUART: And again, I don’t see metaverse being something that people say, oh, 3D headsets or whatever, or blocky pixelated 2D versions on a screen.

STUART: Metaverse, according to the guy that created Pokemon Go, is everywhere.

STUART: He talks about augmented.

STUART: You pull out a phone and you wave it around, and when you want to, to see what’s the other layer that is the digital across the physical that you’re engaging with.

STUART: And people say, oh, well, brands, will consumers completely exist in the metaverse?

STUART: Well, I don’t think so.

STUART: They will dip in and out.

STUART: And people have talked about omni-channel before.

STUART: Well, we talk about multilayered, so that I’ll go through different layers of virtual versus physical.

STUART: As a customer experience in real time, I’ll be dipping in and out of these different layers.

STUART: So, again, we’re just challenging us to think differently about what customers are expecting, how they will use, how they will engage, and bringing it back there for them.

STUART: How do we design and work on value props and customer experiences within the loyalty space?

PAULA: So have you any examples, Stuart, with all of those you’ve talked about a lot there?

PAULA: And I do want to go back through them now in a minute, but blockchain, crypto, NFT, and metaverse, if there’s a particular, whether it’s a company example or a personal example of taking these and creating something new that you think is impressive.

PAULA: I think you mentioned AirBaltic before we came on air, so that might be one to talk through.

STUART: That is the NFT I bought this morning.

STUART: It was interesting that actually it got flagged up recently AirBaltic’s plans for their planeys NFTs were flagged up recently.

STUART: They released them some press about what they were trying to do.

STUART: And there was some criticism about, this is just about, why do we need this tech, and it’s about this, and it’s about that.

STUART: I actually put a post back and said, guys, they’re just trying to learn.

STUART: And actually, I’ve written an article that says NFTs could be a better distribution for airline tickets than GDSs in the future.

STUART: Because actually, it’s a better way of moving.

STUART: It’s a secure, trusted transaction.

STUART: And as a vehicle, an NFT, which is basically a bucket with some code in it, but it moved across a network with security and transferability, could be a really interesting way for people to do things like airline tickets.

STUART: Has anybody moved to an airline ticket-based NFT system now?

STUART: No.

STUART: But should they maybe try it in the loyalty space as getting their toes wet in something that they can maybe not quite get it right first time around?

STUART: That’s a great thing to do.

STUART: And I think AirBaltic are super brave in what they’re saying around their investigation around NFTs.

STUART: They’re getting it right from my point of view in a certain extent because the reason I bought the City Collection NFT is because they are going to launch something called Planey’s NFTs.

STUART: And that Planey’s NFT will have some value, and it’ll have some credits within the airline, and you can read on the web what they’ve been talking about.

STUART: But it will continue from there.

STUART: And what we’re talking about really is the concept of a perpetual game model.

STUART: So I get engaged here, but I moved to there.

STUART: And the NFTs allows you to have this ability to burn one status and get another one because I’ve traded up.

STUART: Luckily, game, I’ve leveled up, and that becomes interesting.

STUART: So I think they’ve got a lot of the thinking right.

STUART: In the article, they have actually all their board hold NFTs, but they’re saying they’re just playing.

STUART: They’re trying to learn about this stuff to see where it goes in the future.

STUART: And as I said, putting something out there is not about the money.

STUART: It’s about the engagement.

STUART: It’s about having fun.

STUART: It’s about creating something that customers are interested in and seeing how it aligns to the business model for loyalty and the business model for the airline in the future.

STUART: So I said credit to them for doing it from an example point of view.

STUART: And their market cap of their city collection entities is only $16,000 today.

STUART: They sold 220, which is slightly below the Board Ape Yacht Club, which is the one people have heard of, which is currently $1.6 billion.

STUART: And today there was a sale of Board Ape Yacht Club for $165,000.

STUART: They were sold for I think about a few hundred dollars in the first place.

STUART: What they did, you know, Board Ape is a great example of how they’ve actually created value for people, the people see value in.

STUART: And the interesting thing behind Board Ape Yacht Club is in theory, there’s a space, a metaverse, there is a space where you can go called Board Ape Yacht Club.

STUART: And if you hold their NFTs, you are allowed access into different rooms.

STUART: And okay, great, that’s the kids playing.

STUART: Starbucks have announced they’re going to do the same thing.

STUART: Starbucks have announced they’re going to do NFTs, and their NFTs will allow customers to have different unlocked experiences and different access.

STUART: And therefore, one of the biggest loyalty programs of modern times is going to be engaging in this tool.

STUART: And Starbucks have also said that they’re using blockchain technology underneath to transfer value between partners.

STUART: They haven’t said they’re going to move stars forward as a cryptocurrency, but oh my word, what would happen if they did?

STUART: Seriously.

PAULA: Yeah.

STUART: So I think you’ve got to look over your shoulder hard at the moment if you’re running programs and go, what is happening in the market, not just in our space, but in another space, and see what we can learn from and where we can go with it.

PAULA: For sure.

PAULA: That’s huge.

PAULA: And just so I’m clear, Stuart, the Starbucks exploration of NFTs and experiences, that’s purely digital experiences, am I right?

STUART: Oh, I doubt it.

STUART: I think it will be an experience where you can, as an NFT holder, go into a digital space.

STUART: They talk about third space in their strategy, which is the space between home and the store.

STUART: And they want to be involved in that third space, which they’re not currently, which is why they’re doing the partnering thing.

STUART: But I’m sure it will be a layered experience where, as an NFT holder, I will certainly look at, you know, do I get a different flavor?

STUART: Do I unlock this?

STUART: Do I unlock that?

STUART: Can they play a game with coffee and coffee drinking that’s interesting, exciting to customers, way beyond the fact that it’s a cup of caffeine with milk in it?

STUART: Sure they can.

STUART: They’re bright guys.

STUART: And I think that’s the kind of experience they’re going to try and create.

STUART: I said it’s all nascent.

STUART: This is very emerging.

STUART: It’s been announced, but not done yet.

STUART: You know, it’s all bleeding edge.

STUART: But, you know, in terms of going out there and saying and trying to do and trying to trial, now is a really good time to kind of do that.

PAULA: And the one that you bought today, Stuart, that sounds exciting.

PAULA: Your AirBaltic City Collection little investment.

PAULA: Is that a piece of art?

PAULA: You mentioned NFTs and to me, NFT non-fungible token, in case anybody hasn’t heard the full word.

PAULA: Not that that illuminates anyone, I don’t think.

PAULA: I think your container explanation is a better, simpler definition.

PAULA: But is that what you’ve bought, a piece of art?

PAULA: Or what is the City Collection?

STUART: Yeah, I’ve bought a piece of art.

STUART: It’s a numbered, I think I’ve bought number 98 of the 100 that were released against as a piece of art, and it’s for the city of Caldiga, which they’ve released.

STUART: But really what I bought is, you say, as an investment in the fact that when they go to release the Plainies NFTs, every wallet, and they can see this because it’s transparent on the web, every wallet on the blockchain, every wallet that holds a city collection NFT will be airdropped, and this is the exciting stuff, airdropped for free some of the Plainies NFTs.

STUART: So by buying the city collection one and getting involved into the relationship with AirBaltic, when they go to their next level and they drop their Plainies NFT, I’m going to get some of those for free.

STUART: I can also buy some potentially in a pre-mint environment, which means they’re much cheaper than the market rate.

STUART: And it’s a way of engaging.

STUART: And you have this kind of…

STUART: We’ve always drawn loyalty life cycles as acquisition, onboarding, activation, and everything else.

STUART: And in the Web3 space, you start with a PoApp, which is a proof of attendance digitally, where I’ve been somewhere, I’ve done something.

STUART: You may buy a smaller NFT.

STUART: You get the chance to buy the bigger NFT because you bought the smaller one.

STUART: Because you hold two of the smaller ones, you get a chance to trade it up or throw those away and buy a big different one.

STUART: And what they’re building is game models.

STUART: They’re building engagement models as games through these tools and devices.

STUART: And that is, I think, for me, the super interesting piece.

STUART: We have to look at games.

STUART: We have to look at customers having choice and control and playing games the way they want to play them.

STUART: And any program today that says, the rules are these, the thresholds are these, and we’re going to take away your points and downgrade your status and all these things.

STUART: It’s like, you’ve got to think differently.

STUART: Mindset has moved on.

STUART: And by the way, I mean, the big thing behind Web3, I think, is today every single launch program in the world is discretionary.

STUART: What does that mean?

STUART: You don’t own the value in your wallet of your points.

STUART: The program can be canceled tomorrow, and there’s no liability.

STUART: They can change in some conditions.

STUART: There’s no liability.

STUART: They’re not accountable for that.

STUART: And that is very…

STUART: And we’ve seen devaluations of programs all the time.

PAULA: Yeah.

STUART: And that is very anti-crypto thinking, because if it’s my value, I should be able to own it, and I should be able to use it the way I want.

STUART: And again, the AirBaltic Press release says, if someone wants to earn gold status through this approach and have an NFT with a gold status, if they want to sell that, why shouldn’t they be able to sell that?

STUART: They’ve earned their value.

STUART: Points are attached to that.

STUART: Why can’t they sell that to somebody else?

STUART: And I won’t go into the technicalities of it, but you think about an NFT being a single bucket.

STUART: You can also have NFTs that actually have multiple buckets attached to one NFT, so you can start to put different attributes behind it.

STUART: And they could also have an NFT that also has value, so currency attached to an NFT.

STUART: So what you can do through the NFT route effectively is to model, remodel an entire membership and customer relationship and have that all modular in a way that a customer can see it, can control it, can use it the way they want to do it.

STUART: They can permission the data.

STUART: They have control over the value.

STUART: They can share it with somebody else or send it to somebody else or sell it if they want.

STUART: And this model is very anti-accountant, if I say the word, because I used to work in client-side, and I know how accountants run programs, and I have challenged many accountants about why airlines are hooked on the crap cocaine, which is breakage.

STUART: But it is the way that customers want to engage with programs in this new mindset.

STUART: And not everybody, but 50 million people playing Roblox, this is what they expect.

STUART: Crypto natives who are trading, crypto curious who may get there, these are the people who will be engaging in it.

STUART: And it’s a movement that will, I think, become pervasive, in some form, not everything, but some shape or form in everything we do, and of course, in loyalty as well.

PAULA: And that was exactly my next question, Stuart, because as you were talking through the NFT piece, I was wondering if I was keeping up, actually, if I’m honest, you know, with all of the potential, because again, it’s the first time I’m exploring this.

PAULA: And what I started to wonder is, you know, is this something that is purely for the highly educated, you know, risk savvy or, you know, investor types who are obviously the early adopters, and we know that, like, do you genuinely believe that the mass markets are going to understand all of these very complex concepts and are going to want to engage at scale?

PAULA: Let’s say I’m going to pick, you know, in the next 10 years, you know, is it happening like that quickly, would you say?

STUART: Oh, next three to four years.

STUART: I can’t see it being 10 because I think Web3 brings so many advantages and opportunities for different experiences that people will want to take more control, want to take more ownership of their data, as we’ve seen with the Brave browser.

STUART: Want to own their own points and their own value.

STUART: And the big tipping point will be them having a Web3 enabled wallet.

STUART: And today you have to have a Web3 wallet, like a Coinbase wallet that can hold your NFTs, it can hold your crypto, and it gets you into metaverse space, and you can use it to browse and transact and be involved.

STUART: And I think that the secret project, I guess, is the wallet project.

STUART: That’s the one that’s going to be different.

STUART: And I think Loyalty has an awful lot of opportunity to take wallets to market and be a partner and a vehicle for people getting Web3 wallets.

STUART: That’s the interesting strategy line.

STUART: Probably shouldn’t say that because I’m working on some of that stuff.

STUART: Yeah, that’s the very exciting piece where you think differently about DeFi and where Web3 goes and all the different things you want to do with it, whether it’s, as I said, my identity, my data, my value, my vaccination certificates, my whatever it is, my university status.

STUART: It can all be held on blockchain.

STUART: It can all be held securely, and the individual can permission it out to different customers.

STUART: And that’s the vision for, I think, the near to long term.

STUART: But certainly, if you looked at the 14-year-olds playing Roblox, they are 19 in five years’ time, the mainstream consumers in five to 10 years’ time.

STUART: And they expect a different way of engaging and owning their own data and their own value.

PAULA: And I guess then the other piece that I’m wondering is, are they, again, at scale, willing to put the work in?

PAULA: Because I often talk about the principle of simplicity.

PAULA: And even yesterday, I was having a wonderful conversation with another thought leader, let’s say, in loyalty, and we really talked about this importance of, it might be time to strip back, to your point about all the terms and conditions and the complexity and the way that we don’t own it and we don’t trust it and whatever.

PAULA: So that principle of simplicity is something that I do think is critical for adoption of certainly any loyalty program I’ve worked on.

PAULA: So do you think that’s possible within these?

STUART: Totally.

STUART: I mean, again, the reason I didn’t buy, $10 million worth of Ethereum today at 54 cents was because every time you had to code a hard wallet, you had to literally code a hard wallet.

STUART: Oh.

STUART: So know how to create one and set it up and everything else.

STUART: Obviously, now you can do soft wallets, which is just somebody else does all that work for you, and you can go into one of these environments and you can trust them if you like, and they’ll do the work for you.

STUART: I think that taking away the complexity is still complex, and what you’ve got at the moment is a myriad of different ways you can do things.

STUART: There’s lots of different wallets, and some NFTs and cryptos and exchanges ask for different wallets to have different things.

STUART: So it’s all very diverse, but I think that it will start to converge at some point in time, and I think loyalty programs with their huge numbers of members have an opportunity to be a trusted partner and to strip away that complexity and say, here’s something we’re going to bring to you.

STUART: It’s easy, and you can trust us because you’ve trusted us forever and you know who we are and everything else, and we’re a trusted brand.

STUART: So trusted brands enter this space.

STUART: I think it will become a lot easier for people to get on board, whether that’s with a wallet, with crypto, with NFTs, or playing in the metaverse, I think it will make much easier.

STUART: You don’t really need to go and walk around Decentraland as a guest.

STUART: You don’t need to have anything in there.

STUART: Yes, you could connect a wallet if you wanted to, but you don’t need to.

STUART: So I think, yeah, we have an opportunity in the loyalty industry, in the loyalty space, to be icebreakers for commerce and for engagement in this new environment.

PAULA: Yeah, well, I do think that’s an important point.

PAULA: The power of the brand, Stuart.

PAULA: Yeah, I do think that’s something that I hadn’t really thought about in the context of the trust piece.

PAULA: So I absolutely agree that loyalty programs have that at scale, as we know.

PAULA: The other thing that I was thinking, though, that I think needs to happen is I’ve heard a lot about the fees being very high.

PAULA: I think the industry term is gas fees, Stuart.

PAULA: Am I right in terms of getting involved and playing the games?

STUART: Yes.

PAULA: OK, got my first bit of jargon.

STUART: If you transact across the network, there are gas fees.

STUART: So Ethereum is the main environment which has gas fees.

STUART: And a lot of people have built smart contracts and projects on Ethereum, mainly because it was an easy way of minting tokens, which they then put their projects on to try and make a lot of money.

STUART: So Ethereum has a huge volume of transactions, and Ethereum runs off the gas ETH.

STUART: ETH both has a volatility in its own price, and the gas fee itself as a fee is also volatile in terms of the network.

STUART: So if you have a lot of volume going through the network, the gas fee itself, the charge can spike, and you’ve got volatility in the actual currency you’re using to pay.

STUART: So it’s actually quite difficult.

STUART: But that’s what they call layer one blockchain, which is the native core blockchain.

STUART: What you can do with blockchain is what they call layer two, which sits on top of layer one, and it basically aggregates those transactions up.

STUART: And there are many layer two solutions, and people may have heard of something called Polygon, which is one of the leaders in that space.

STUART: And basically, Polygon will take those gas fees down by a factor of sort of take 90% off them, because they aggregate the transactions up.

STUART: It’s still not free, but it’s a way of reducing the fees.

STUART: And there are other networks that also run different, they’ll have a fee with different structures.

STUART: And I guess the other part of that, something you touched on earlier, Paula, is the environmentally friendly nature of blockchain, which it clearly isn’t.

STUART: And I think I had read somewhere to mint a single NFT, to mint one, which is to create one the first time around on blockchain.

STUART: It takes the same energy as running a house for 24 days, which is crazy.

STUART: And we all know that shouldn’t happen.

STUART: So Ethereum itself, originally, and getting back to 2015 when it launched, has been running on a particular way of working.

STUART: I won’t go to the detail of it, but it’s called proof of work, which means that the computers that are processing the network and are competing to win those gas fees and get rewarded for doing the work are basically solving a nonsensical computer algorithm.

STUART: There is no value in the algorithm they do.

STUART: So all this computing power that is basically a race to solve the problem, to get the right to post to the blockchain, doesn’t do anything for anybody.

STUART: So all that energy being consumed in this processing to earn the gas fees doesn’t do anything for anybody, which is madness.

STUART: It’s the way blockchain set up to do certain things.

STUART: So Ethereum itself is moving to something called proof of stake, which will be much lower processing requirement.

STUART: It won’t have a nonsensical model.

STUART: It will be about people staking their reputation, and they’ve been working on that, and are still trying to move to that particular model.

STUART: So that will take away a large chunk of the environmental issues that sit behind Ethereum blockchain, the major one people are using, and many other blockchains.

STUART: So Cardano, Solano, Tezos, other blockchains that are out there, that are actually newer than Ethereum, and more built for purpose, don’t use that algorithm.

STUART: They don’t use the proof of work, which means that they don’t have the energy consumption.

STUART: So it’s a bit like, I guess you’d say, no, aren’t cars polluting?

STUART: Yes, if you’re looking at a 1978 Ford Cortina, as I did have once have, then yes, it’s polluting.

STUART: But compared to a built modern hybrid or Tesla, it’s not polluting.

STUART: So that has different challenges, but it’s just the evolution of the technology and the industry as we evolve the capability and the way that these things work in the back end.

STUART: It’s still very nascent, it’s still very emerging.

STUART: The capability is improving all the time, as people invest and try and do, and solve the problems on the back end.

PAULA: Yeah, well, I’m very pleased to hear about that.

PAULA: And I really like that idea of reputation as a new solution, because given, we certainly spent a lot of shows here talking about environmental concerns and using loyalty to address them and then greenwashing.

PAULA: And honestly, it’s such a big topic that I can just imagine chief marketing officers going, yes, I want to be the curious, experimenting type of brand, yet I have that potential backlash again from relatively lower informed consumers like myself, who might just go, oh, my God, why are they doing an NFT?

PAULA: That’s outrageous.

STUART: You may have seen in the press actually that Salesforce, one of the largest tech companies in the world, announced they’re going to have an NFT marketplace.

STUART: And a whole bunch of Salesforce employees wrote to Salesforce and said, oh, we don’t like this.

STUART: And actually, they were flagging the environmental concerns of that.

STUART: And Salesforce has gone ahead.

STUART: They have moved it away from being an Ethereum-based solution to say we will use an environmentally friendly blockchain solution underneath.

STUART: So they’ve launched on that.

STUART: And Starbucks, again, on their own NFT model, their announcements have said exactly the same thing.

STUART: They will not use an environmentally unfriendly blockchain behind it.

STUART: So they’re just picking the hybrids or the Teslas, which is the right thing to do.

STUART: And being sensible with knowledge, rather than following the herd and jumping on to Ethereum as it stands today until it changes.

STUART: So the more knowledge you have, the better decisions you can make in this space.

STUART: But it is moving very, very quickly.

STUART: And keeping up with it is very hard.

PAULA: Well, absolutely, I can tell, which is why I love these kind of conversations, because you’ve done all the hard work and the research, and I just get to ask all the questions.

PAULA: But I really like that idea, Stuart, that the prerequisite now, I think, for anybody listening to this can at least be to be aware that there are very different versions of blockchain from a computing perspective, and to go and make sure that they understand that piece, even before they risk anything from a reputation perspective, and start there with whatever problem it is they’re trying to solve.

STUART: Absolutely.

STUART: I mean, a blockchain has two different types, even in its own basic construct.

STUART: This is private permissionless, so private and permissioned, which is through big companies working together as a network, public and permissionless, like an Ethereum network, where it’s out there for everyone to see.

STUART: And they too do two very different things, actually.

STUART: They’re there for different purposes.

STUART: So we’ve got to know what type of blockchain you want to use.

STUART: And according to the Dilbert cartoon, it’s purple because it has more RAM, I think the manager quoted, which is actually a really useful example for how people know about blockchain.

STUART: Even in crypto tokens, we can talk about a stable coin.

STUART: People have heard of that, which is brilliant for transferring value between companies and a network.

STUART: So you can imagine a network of partners using a stable coin, because they all want to actually get the money they expect at the end of it if they do a blockchain transaction, not some sort of variable because the rates changed, versus a dynamic token, which is then super exciting to individuals because it’s going to be market priced.

STUART: In NFTs, you have, I said, three different types at least.

STUART: You’ve got the static NFT, you’ve got the composable NFT, you’ve got the top of the heap, which is the one that allows you to put it all together as a membership thing.

STUART: So we can see different types of NFTs.

STUART: And then metaverse, what is it?

STUART: Is it 2D flat screens?

STUART: Is it 3D headsets?

STUART: When I read something about metaverse, 3D headsets, it starts with 3D headsets.

STUART: I’ve given up already because it’s not about 3D headsets.

STUART: That will be part of it, but 2D screens are just as good.

STUART: Pulling out a mobile phone and waving it around is just as good, using an augmented approach.

STUART: So I think with all these things, there’s so many levels of complexity, that I think as marketeers, all we can do is go, what customer needs do we see in the future and how might we address them, and how we work backwards from Web3 thinking in the way that customer wants it to be solved, and not trying to push existing tech or existing ideas forward into this Web3 space.

STUART: Again, I see customers say to me, great, we’re going to go into metaverse, have another day, and it said, you know, we want to launch shop in the metaverse.

STUART: Why would you do that?

STUART: You already have a shop.

STUART: Launch an experience.

STUART: Do something you can’t do in the physical world.

STUART: Create something completely different, you know, that is about your brand and about expressing what you are trying to do and who you want to be.

STUART: More so than be bounded by replicating a Web2 model into Web3.

PAULA: And what about then, I suppose, just the idea of connection in the metaverse, Stuart, you know, given that we know there’s so much of this, I think, craving for connection, particularly post-COVID.

PAULA: The idea of connecting in a digital world sounds to me a bit like, you know, a poorer version, dare I say it, of the Facebook problems or the social media problems if I was more generous, I suppose.

PAULA: You know, is there an appetite and is there a real opportunity to connect in the metaverse in a way that’s not, you know, I suppose, better in the real world?

PAULA: Like, that’s where I guess I’m struggling with, why would I meet somebody in the metaverse versus down in the local pub or cafe?

STUART: Sure.

STUART: But here we are having a digital conversation.

STUART: So you could say the same thing.

STUART: You know, I think there is, let me give you an example.

STUART: So I read this somewhere.

STUART: I quite like it.

STUART: You know, if you offer a 13 year old child who plays Roblox, you know, well done for your exams.

STUART: Here’s $100 to buy some new trainers, some cool new trainers.

PAULA: Yeah.

STUART: The kid will turn around and go, can I have it in Roblox, please?

STUART: Can I have it in Robux, which is the currency in Roblox.

STUART: What are you going to do with it?

STUART: I’m going to buy trainers.

STUART: Why would they buy virtual trainers rather than physical trainers?

STUART: With the same money, because they can hang out with their friends anywhere in the world.

STUART: It doesn’t have to be in a location that they have to go to.

STUART: They haven’t got to be down in the park in the pouring rain.

STUART: They can hang out with their friends.

STUART: They can wear the trainers.

STUART: They can still look cool.

STUART: They can hang on to those trainers forever.

STUART: They’re not going to go smelly and dirty.

STUART: I’m going to clean them, do anything with them.

STUART: And they can sell them again for whatever value they’re going to get in the future.

STUART: Why would you want real trainers?

STUART: And I think that for a chunk of people in the world, virtual is the new real.

STUART: And not just for connection and for social environment, but also for assets and things they’re excited about.

STUART: And Gucci sold their Gucci handbags on Roblox.

STUART: They sold for more than a real Gucci handbag.

STUART: So people are excited about this stuff.

STUART: If you look at what Nike are doing with crypto kicks and their shoes, they’re going for thousands of dollars.

STUART: Virtual trainers, not real trainers, never will be.

STUART: There’s the fidgetle concept where I buy a physical item, and I have a digital twin in the metaverse as well.

STUART: So I can have the handbag in real, and I can have the virtual on the same thing.

STUART: So I think the connection of things is really interesting, because who wants to be connected to who for what and how, it’s down to them.

STUART: And if they want to go and have a virtual experience, and I’ll give you an example.

STUART: You can’t laugh at this, Paul, I’m sure you will, but my Decentraland avatar is me in a kilt.

STUART: I did get married in a kilt.

STUART: I’ve got Martins on.

STUART: I think I’ve got yellow socks.

STUART: I can’t remember the jacket and a mohawk.

PAULA: Oh my God.

STUART: So that’s me in the metaverse.

STUART: I’ll be who you want to be, right?

STUART: So you don’t have to see me sitting by my computer as a picture.

STUART: You can see who I want to be.

STUART: And I think that that, as you say, right at the beginning, the ability to be expressive and be who you want to be and not be limited by physicality is something that’s very hard for people, my generation particularly, to understand.

STUART: But it’s what these 13-year-olds are doing when they go and play Roblox or Fortnite or whatever else it is.

STUART: And I think that as marketeers, we have to be experimenting now and learning now because otherwise it’s going to come up and smack us in the back of the head.

STUART: We’re not going to see it coming in terms of what the experience and the value and the value props that customers are looking for in the future.

PAULA: And you don’t get to our age, Stuart, without looking back with some, well, for me anyway, some little regrets in terms of professional opportunities, I kind of feel like I was aware of, didn’t take action on, and kind of watched the world move on, and I wasn’t involved in certain things, where I like to think of myself as somebody who’s curious enough to do the exploratory piece.

PAULA: But then sometimes when it comes to dedicating time, attention, and maybe some money into something, it’s not been something I’ve been very good at in the past.

PAULA: But I agree, obviously, now as a content creator, that there is something exceptional about creating, whether it’s digital or physical or whatever.

PAULA: To me, this is similar to, I guess, what every business owner and certainly every loyalty program owner listening as well could probably relate to.

PAULA: There is something quite exhilarating about creating something in the world that didn’t exist before, I think.

STUART: Absolutely.

STUART: I think we all want to be heroes.

STUART: The accounts will tell us, no, don’t do it, because there’s no money.

STUART: I’ve heard people in marketing and advertising space say, there’s no volume in the metaverse, which there isn’t.

STUART: But now they’re actually getting their brands coming to them to say they want to experiment.

STUART: What they’re trying to do is to find new ways of doing new things, not new ways of doing old things.

STUART: I think that’s a really important point.

STUART: Do something different.

STUART: I said hat software Baltic for being brave, and they’re doing something.

STUART: Is there a proven value behind it?

STUART: No.

STUART: Are other people thinking about it?

STUART: Sure.

STUART: I’m currently involved in projects in the Middle East, looking at crypto loyalty, we’re doing NFTs in Asia, looking at actually what metaverse and Web3 can do for health in USA.

STUART: There are a lot of projects out there that people are trying to find a way.

STUART: And the only way to my views to find it is to try and do it, because there are no proof points.

STUART: People say to me all the time, so where’s the proof this works?

STUART: Who’s done it before?

STUART: Who’s succeeded so far?

PAULA: Nobody.

STUART: So what’s your favorite brave, right?

STUART: And if you said, with examples and experience, go ask Blockbuster, what happens if we don’t cover your shoulder?

STUART: Go ask Kodak, what happens if we don’t cover your shoulder?

STUART: There’s examples in history where people haven’t been aware of what’s coming up behind them.

STUART: Is this something?

STUART: I think it will be.

STUART: Will it take over the world?

STUART: Not in the short term, but be part of it.

STUART: And I think therefore we have to think about it hard.

PAULA: We definitely do.

PAULA: And when you said, you know, here we are in a digital environment, I was going to ask, well, what’s missing?

PAULA: And clearly it’s your mohawk and you’re killed.

PAULA: So I can see a multilayered meeting in the future, Stuart.

STUART: It would make it exciting.

STUART: And again, if you imagine companies meeting in the metaverse and people pitching up and, you know, they will turn the cameras on or will be their avatar if they want to be themselves.

STUART: And they don’t have to make themselves look smart for a business meeting because they can be expressive and still be engaged.

STUART: It’s just a different thing.

STUART: And I think that, you know, there is a reason why these kids play Roblox because it’s engaging, because it’s engaging.

STUART: And that’s what businesses want to have in meetings.

STUART: That’s what loyalty programs need to have with customers.

STUART: That’s what consumers and individuals crave.

STUART: They want engagement, they want fun.

STUART: And I think that now is the time to put the fun into loyalty and move some of this stuff forward.

PAULA: Well, I’m completely sold, Stuart.

PAULA: As I said, I’ve literally come out of a conversation yesterday about how little has been going on in general, I suppose, with their mainstream programs.

PAULA: So I do think it’s time to put the fun in and to try some radical concepts.

PAULA: I have no idea where it leaves me in terms of what I might try that might be radical, but you certainly opened my eyes and my mind, Stuart.

PAULA: So I think that’s all the questions I feel like I have for today.

PAULA: Do you think there’s anything else important that we haven’t touched on that’s important for the audience to be thinking about?

STUART: I think we’ve covered a lot of the whys and the theory.

STUART: I think the only other thing to talk about really is the money.

STUART: And when Adidas launched their NFTs, they did $44 million of NFTs in an afternoon.

PAULA: Wow.

STUART: If you look at some of the numbers that go through Axie Affinity Game and the very small value transactions, the numbers are billions of dollars.

STUART: The Board Ape Yacht Club, I think it’s a $1.6 billion franchise now based on people creating a whole bunch of pictures of apes in the first place.

STUART: So AirBoltic haven’t got it with their current NFT set.

STUART: They may have in the future.

STUART: It becomes valuable.

STUART: But I think that there is a new…

STUART: It’s also thinking about commerce a different way and thinking about how you can capture and create value.

STUART: If you could imagine, again, if you look at what the sports companies have done with Socios and the NFTs are done there, capturing a moment of a match, and NFT-ing that.

STUART: Actually, the good example is NBA Top Shot, which is one of the top NFT marketplace collections out there.

STUART: So the NBA take moments from the game, and they encapsulate them as an NFT, and people buy those for $300,000, $400,000.

STUART: And that’s a value that wasn’t there before.

STUART: So they’ve captured and created that value.

STUART: So in the world of your space, our magic as loyalty marketeers is value creation.

STUART: We know that.

STUART: We know that’s what we need to do.

STUART: High perceived value, low cost.

STUART: Oh, my word.

STUART: Look at what we can do with not just blockchain that makes things more efficient, the crypto that makes things more exciting, NFTs that make things more valuable, a metaverse that adds a layer of experience.

STUART: If you go 2 plus 2 plus 2, you get 10, not just 6.

STUART: Because I think layering these things together makes it super exciting.

STUART: And I think get the experience right first, get the value prop right, and hopefully the money will follow.

PAULA: Well, for sure.

PAULA: I mean, clearly there is explosive potential at the risk of overstating it.

PAULA: I mean, honestly, there is a lot of thinking to be done.

PAULA: As you said, a lot of experimenting to be done, a different mindset and a shift, I think, for all of us that, you know, are aware of this potential.

PAULA: I think it’s a wonderfully exciting space.

PAULA: So I’m guessing a lot of people listening as Stuart are going to want to connect with you.

PAULA: So where’s the best place for people to find you?

PAULA: If they have questions about Web 3.0?

STUART: Stuart, CG.

STUART: Evans on LinkedIn.

STUART: Hit me through there.

STUART: You can find me.

STUART: And yeah, have a question, have a point of view.

STUART: Love to have a debate because there are no right answers.

STUART: And, you know, it’s doing it is the way to find out.

PAULA: For sure.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: And of course, I’ll make sure to link to your LinkedIn on the show notes as well.

PAULA: And if anybody’s listening and wants a direct introduction, of course, to Stuart, please just let me know.

PAULA: And I’ll make sure to put you in touch.

PAULA: So I think it’s been wonderfully exciting.

PAULA: Anything else you wanted to mention, Stuart, before we wrap up?

STUART: I enjoyed that very much, Paula.

STUART: Thank you very much.

STUART: And I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

STUART: It’s been fun.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: I enjoyed it, too.

PAULA: So Stuart Evans, talking all about Web 3.0.

PAULA: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.

PAULA: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 245 executives in 27 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.

PAULA: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: If you’d like us to send you the latest shows each week, simply sign up for the Let’s Talk Loyalty newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com.

PAULA: And we’ll send our best episodes straight to your inbox.

PAULA: And don’t forget that you can follow Let’s Talk Loyalty on any of your favorite podcast platforms.

PAULA: And of course, we’d love for you to share your feedback and reviews.

PAULA: Thanks again for supporting the show.