DLF Mall Rewards: Blending Human and Digital to Delight Customers (#727)

Shivaji: DLF as a group is obviously a real estate company based in India.

Shivaji: My headquarters, which is towards retail business, is headquartered in north of India.

Shivaji: Here we work with the malls.

Shivaji: Why would somebody join your program?

Shivaji: And at the same point of time, do they even know about your program?

Shivaji: We feel the best way to do it is inside the mall itself.

Shivaji: We are at a state where our reporting and analytics is mall specific, it’s not a universal chapter because we go back to each mall in a different way.

Shivaji: We go back to malls, so it’s not like DLF Malls Rewards is this, but we go like, hey, let’s talk about Mall A today, let’s talk about Mall B today.

Shivaji: I look up to people who are building more things.

Shivaji: It’s very exciting to see what new the loyalty community is doing.

Shivaji: So for me, like, hey, okay, interesting.

Shivaji: This can be pulled off as well.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is part of the Wiser Loyalty Series and is hosted by Aaron Dauphinee, Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer of the WISE Marketeer Group.

Paula: The WISE Marketeer Group is a media, education and advisory services company, providing resources for loyalty marketeers through the WISE Marketeer digital publication and the Loyalty Academy Programme that offers the Certified Loyalty Marketing Professional or CLMP designation.

Paula: I hope you enjoyed this episode brought to you by Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV in partnership with the WISE Marketeer Group.

Aaron: Hello everyone, welcome back to another edition of the Wiser Loyalty Podcast Series.

Aaron: This is the podcast series that is brought to you in partnership with Let’s Talk Loyalty and the WISE Marketeer, which has actually been for nearly two years now.

Aaron: So I am Aaron Dauphinee, your host for this edition and I am the CMO here at the WISE Marketeer Group or WMG for short.

Aaron: And we first started in 2024, the WISE Marketeer Group CEO Bill Hanifin and myself shared our thoughts and insights on some of the Loyalty contracts and topics from our core course curriculum at the Loyalty Academy.

Aaron: The courses we focused on lead individuals towards obtaining their Certified Loyalty Marketing Professional Designation or CLMP for short as we talk about it.

Aaron: And we tackled one course per month with Bill and I going back and forth talking about those constructs.

Aaron: But in 2025, we shifted our focus to align more to the format of other hosts at Let’s Talk Loyalty with one-to-one individual conversations.

Aaron: And Bill and I focused the conversations for the Wiser Loyalty series to be with practitioners of our trade, such as those from our CLMP community.

Aaron: We also speak with executives and senior marketers who are leading from the C-suite.

Aaron: So twice a month, we bring you an interview with a C-level executive, a loyalty leader, or a CLMP who has transformed strategy into practical application and generated strong business results from customer loyalty.

Aaron: For me, this year in 2025 seems to be the year of speaking with Mall-based loyalty program operators, which I actually find very interesting because in a previous life, it’s a loyalty model that we attempted to stand up back in, oh gosh, like 2005 with a loyalty service provider I worked with.

Aaron: But only more recently have we truly seen these Mall programs start to become more and more common.

Aaron: So whether it’s in the Middle East, the APAC region here in North America, and now today as we talk with an Indian operator as well too.

Aaron: So my guest today is Shivaji Choudhary, who is the Assistant General Manager of Marketing at DLF Malls and one of the key principles in building out and launching DLF Mall Rewards.

Aaron: So welcome, Shivaji.

Aaron: Thank you for joining me in what is now your later evening.

Shivaji: Hi, Aaron.

Shivaji: Thank you so much for having me.

Aaron: Great.

Shivaji: Thank you for the introduction.

Aaron: Oh, my pleasure.

Aaron: My pleasure.

Aaron: So for those of you who are maybe unfamiliar with DLF Malls, it is one of the lines of businesses within DLF, which is a nearly 80-year-old real estate development management and investment firm out of India.

Aaron: I believe it is actually the largest publicly listed real estate company, as well as it completes the trifecta of residential, commercial, and retail properties across about 15 states and 24 cities.

Aaron: Shivaji joined DLF Malls.

Aaron: I’ll let him explain more firsthand in just a moment.

Aaron: But he joined just under two years ago, and in that time, has focused on building out their loyalty offering.

Aaron: Prior to this, he held a series of brand positions at Avine and Motion Education, and he’s a man near to my own personal pursuits.

Aaron: He’s been an entrepreneur as well and operated his own e-commerce business.

Aaron: Shivaji, what else should our listeners know about your background?

Aaron: Then also, we like to begin our podcast by bridging beyond just career highlights.

Aaron: Let me ask our guests a specific question about what’s inspiring you.

Aaron: Specifically, what book are you currently reading, and why or what’s most fruitful takeaway from that book?

Aaron: Let’s start there with, is there anything I missed in the opening about you and in your career, and then talk about the books that you’re reading and why?

Shivaji: Thanks for that again.

Shivaji: Apart from the corporate world and what not, there’s a lot which I also try to work with.

Shivaji: I love sports, so that’s something I really, really enjoy.

Shivaji: Apart from working, I do devote my time for sports, especially basketball.

Shivaji: Very nice.

Shivaji: That also helps me to understand team game.

Shivaji: That’s very important.

Shivaji: That’s one way of looking at it.

Shivaji: If I talk about the book I’m currently reading, in fact, I just finished one of my books.

Shivaji: It’s called Barking of the Wrong Tree.

Shivaji: It’s by Eric Barker and a very well-thought and curated examples of how we see success and how it’s mostly wrong.

Shivaji: It’s the myths, it’s the delusions, it’s the narratives, it’s the optics and whatnot.

Shivaji: How we, and then you go into experiments and you see the inferences coming out of these things.

Shivaji: I like these kind of books where I’m able to understand different mindsets.

Shivaji: It helps me to know another person’s point of view and how they like to articulate it even further.

Shivaji: Experiences with experiments is a great combination, and that’s something that book helped me understand even further.

Aaron: Yeah, I like that.

Aaron: Experiences with experiments, that speaks to me.

Aaron: I have a science background, so that’s right in my wheelhouse as well too.

Aaron: That’s perfect.

Aaron: Wonderful.

Aaron: So with any organization that kind of has an abbreviation of their company name, people are naturally curious about it.

Aaron: So I know DLF is very large.

Aaron: It’s a tenured real estate company, but perhaps you can quickly give us the Coles notes on the business overall, but then tell us more about your line of business, specifically DFL Malls, kind of to set the stage for the conversation today.

Shivaji: Right.

Shivaji: So DLF as a group is obviously a real estate company based in India, and my headquarters, which is towards retail business, is headquartered in north of India.

Shivaji: Here we work with the malls specifically.

Shivaji: In the model hemisphere, I would say, or in the top of the north, what we do here is that over a period of time, there were lots of malls that were built based on the proximity, based on the location, the geography of the place and whatnot.

Shivaji: So as New Delhi is the capital, but at the same time, the neighboring cities also become part of the bigger chapter of New Delhi, which is called Delhi NCR.

Shivaji: So the neighboring cities which were closer to Delhi also became a bigger forum, and that’s where DLF Malls took the center stage in different places and build their presence in the retail side as well.

Shivaji: And very prominent malls and I’m very happy to work with them and gave me the opportunity to take this role where I’m able to build a loyalty program for DLF Malls.

Aaron: That’s great.

Aaron: Yeah, I love that the expansion outside of the main capital is I keep thinking key pillar in terms of your story and your success and the reasons why you’re doing some of the things that you’re doing in the rewards program.

Aaron: So let’s talk about that a little bit more.

Aaron: So mall based programs, they tend to have a multi-pronged set of customers, if you will.

Aaron: There are actual shoppers and then consumers, and then there’s also the retailers.

Aaron: But can you talk us through the customer types that you’re targeting and trying to influence with the loyalty mechanics in your program first?

Shivaji: Sure.

Shivaji: So let’s say we kind of launched, we took our sweet time to first figure out the proposition, the real proposition, what we will set.

Shivaji: And that’s where we say in our organization, the DLF way.

Shivaji: Interesting.

Shivaji: Right.

Shivaji: So then we obviously are the aggregators who are there for the retailers, the tenants at the same point of time, customer.

Shivaji: So on one side, we have the DLF way, then the other side in DLF Malls, we say every moment elevated.

Shivaji: So it’s a bridge between the customer and the retailer, while it’s the property, it’s the mall which we operate.

Shivaji: So what originally it started as like just another loyalty program or like how we wanted to do.

Shivaji: But we took another step and this time we came up with an invite only launch.

Aaron: Oh, interesting.

Aaron: Okay.

Shivaji: Right.

Shivaji: So in that, what we wanted to do was to not open it for everyone to start with.

Shivaji: We were in a hypercare period, we wanted to see how it rolls out, how as much as you plan everything, you also have to take steady steps and not just jump the gun.

Shivaji: So for an example, if somebody shops for X amount, only then you’re invited or enrolled in the program.

Shivaji: That was a conscious decision we wanted to take, how and where do we want to put our loyalty bucket in our business forum as well.

Shivaji: So we did this for good 15 to 20 days.

Shivaji: We still saw a good number of people getting enrolled, where we have X number of amount, which is the basic to get enrolled.

Shivaji: Obviously, as customer delight is the number one thing for us, that’s what we really focus on.

Shivaji: So obviously, they got a lot of vouchers, they got a lot of various brand vouchers, I would say, that we could help them with, and they can go and redeem these inside the mall, and there were cab services for them.

Shivaji: So there were different things which we wanted to try while we were launching that, hey, let’s build this the right way.

Shivaji: That’s how we then moved on to our, I would call it a soft launch.

Shivaji: Then we got into, that’s when we got into our bigger step where we opened it for all.

Shivaji: Then we went through our hypercare period, we went through our initial phase to see how the traction is, and what’s the consumer’s sentiment or problem, what’s the excitement level, or is it just another program.

Shivaji: There’s a lot of these things which we wanted to be very sure of the direction we are planning to move in.

Shivaji: Once we opened it for all, it went on to another level of signups and enrollment and a lot of consumer insight.

Shivaji: That’s how I’m able to speak so much about it.

Aaron: Very good.

Aaron: It’s interesting to me because you just talked about barking up the wrong tree and that balance of experience and experimentation.

Aaron: Yet, you’ve already been doing that in advance, finishing that book.

Aaron: It’s just maybe perhaps coincidental that those two themes come together for you, or at least you can coalesce in terms of how you think about the program now after reading that book.

Aaron: That’s a nice tie together.

Aaron: I want to dig a little bit further into the employee-based element.

Aaron: Is the program just for shoppers because there’s that threshold, that element of exclusivity, and then you’re opening up, or does it lend itself into the retailers and their employee base as well?

Shivaji: What actually happens in a situation like this, that the retailers are also benefiting out of our loyalty program is because we want the customers to come and shop in these shops basically.

Shivaji: Once you make these purchases, you earn your points and then you redeem the points.

Shivaji: Where do you redeem them?

Shivaji: You go to these stores.

Shivaji: You go to the food court.

Shivaji: You probably go to the cinemas.

Shivaji: You go to buy a pair of jeans or whatever it is, or maybe by having a nice brunch with your friends and whatnot.

Shivaji: Overall, it’s a program which is a plus plus for the customer and retailer mix.

Shivaji: That’s how we have planned it this way that the moment somebody gets to a point where they have enough points to redeem, it is the consumer benefit and a retail benefit tied together.

Shivaji: That’s how we have constructed the program.

Shivaji: Eventually, we are looking at 1,000 retailers portfolio.

Shivaji: Wow.

Shivaji: Approximately 1,000 retailers portfolio.

Shivaji: These malls are in different locations as well.

Shivaji: So what we have also done is cross-pollination, per se.

Shivaji: So if you can shop in one mall, you can earn in one mall and you can redeem in another mall also.

Shivaji: So this way we don’t, because obviously, New Delhi being, there’s a big population out here as well.

Shivaji: So some people live in another area, probably work in another area.

Shivaji: So they might want to not miss out the chance that there’s just a limitation based on geography.

Shivaji: So they can move around a weekend here, a weekend there and probably have accumulative points and get the best of the rewards.

Aaron: I love that flexibility to be across the different properties and spaces is the term I like to use when I’m talking about mall operators because sometimes the mall formats are different specifically.

Aaron: Maybe you talk a little bit about this of they live at home, they obviously work in maybe a different area, having the proximity closer so there’s flexibility across that.

Aaron: But maybe can you talk a little bit more about the strategies that are proving successful to get customers into your physical spaces and then outline any strategies that you’re putting into play to encourage return visits?

Shivaji: Sure.

Shivaji: There are two things to this.

Shivaji: First is the awareness model where why would somebody join your program?

Shivaji: And at the same point of time, do they even know about your program?

Shivaji: We feel the best way to do it is inside the mall itself.

Shivaji: Because the consumer is inside the mall.

Shivaji: We have a team of loyalty executives, we have a team of operations, marketing team, everyone is aligned at the malls, and we drive our sign-ups.

Shivaji: So firstly, I also want to tell you that in our program, in our first phase, what we did, it was a pure scan the QR code straight to WhatsApp chatbot.

Shivaji: So in our initial period again, we wanted to eliminate the idea of just an app download business.

Shivaji: We don’t want to, so let’s get the consumer quick, and let them not go through this app download situation.

Shivaji: Then whether they use the app or not, we don’t know.

Shivaji: How much do they use the app?

Shivaji: So it becomes a very obsolete chapter when we wanted to start.

Shivaji: Sooner or later, we don’t know yet, but at the same point of time, we wanted quick transactions.

Shivaji: At the same time, what we also did was build, we tried to have OCR extraction where we try to build in some chatbot, got in a little bit of AI in between where we wanted to say, hey, just choose your preferred mall.

Shivaji: Maybe we’ll send out more offers about the preferred mall you have.

Shivaji: There are these kind of segmentation that happen.

Shivaji: At the same point of time, how we are planning to shift from where we are right now, again, go by phases.

Shivaji: What we plan to do is that soon or later, where we will reach our benchmark or the levels what we have said for this year or for quarters, we are also looking at expanding external partners to the external partners, where we say, again, we go back to customer delight.

Shivaji: Because you are our shopper, we are going to give you, let’s say, a free trip to another place, probably a nice brunch at a hotel.

Shivaji: We might want to give you your cabs.

Shivaji: You don’t have to come bring your car to the mall.

Shivaji: Maybe you have a pick and drop services.

Shivaji: I mean, there is multiple layers we want to make convenient for you.

Shivaji: At the same time, we obviously have tier benefits as well.

Shivaji: So if you’re bringing your car, your car parking is free.

Shivaji: Maybe your valet is free.

Shivaji: So there are these elements which obviously helps build more trust with the customers.

Shivaji: I think it will take time to understand the retention.

Shivaji: I mean, it’s a three, three-and-a-half month to four-month period from since launch.

Shivaji: But at the same time, we are still seeing a decent number of repeat customers and people who are.

Shivaji: For us, the identifier for that is somebody who’s uploading builds on the chat of multiple days.

Shivaji: For us, when we see that happen, it’s a smile on my face like, hey, somebody is actually actively looking at getting more rewards.

Shivaji: That’s the interesting part where we try to club things from one mall, and then we also offer like, hey, I understand that you’re probably in Mall A.

Shivaji: Do you want to see what’s in Mall B?

Aaron: Very good.

Aaron: We talk a lot about the digitization of loyalty.

Aaron: You mentioned in our preview conversations around the mechanism into WhatsApp, get them in quick, low friction, easy, identify, and then from there start to fill in the pieces on the customer based upon their behaviors and some of the prompts that you’re doing to surprise and delight them.

Aaron: One of the other things that you talked about in our initial conversation, which struck with me was the role and importance of your on-service employee and service reps physically in the mall.

Aaron: You touched a little bit on it earlier, but maybe you can go a little bit deeper on that.

Aaron: That physical human element of support versus the digital elements in your program and talk about the relative importance of each.

Shivaji: Sure.

Shivaji: It’s very easy or let’s say it’s easier to play the game of loyalty online, because it’s coming from a click of a button game.

Shivaji: Mall business is experience-based, real-time experience.

Shivaji: As much as all the buzz I create online, eventually it has to be translated into an offline experience.

Shivaji: So that is step one for me, right?

Shivaji: That’s when, for me, our loyalty executives are the ambassadors of our program.

Shivaji: That is how we are playing this game, where we say, be there for the customer, be there, inform them, help them.

Shivaji: And they are a robust team for support.

Shivaji: At the same time, at times, we also go into these training models for our executives.

Shivaji: How to be with them, because our loyalty program is in itself a chapter of terms and conditions.

Shivaji: There are things people don’t know about.

Shivaji: Maybe they are missing out on a particular benefit, right?

Shivaji: So be there for the customer.

Shivaji: Hence, it’s a robust model where our executives are out there and hats off to them, the team on ground, they are the ones who drive this, to be honest, and obviously, all our stakeholders at the mall, at the sites are the ones who are totally aligned in how we want to build this.

Shivaji: So they also go through training, as I mentioned.

Shivaji: So there is this one constant check on how we are and how we want to deliver.

Aaron: I love that.

Aaron: So the idea of the massive ship, right?

Aaron: I think that’s really, really strong and necessary.

Aaron: You’ve described it in other conversations I’ve had with other mall operators as well too for programs, very similar about the human aspect rising up to what you said at the onset of this, which is because you’re about experiences, you’re about activations, right?

Aaron: It’s a different mindset in game in terms of what you’re trying to support for the end customers and so you have to act differently and with different tools and mechanisms.

Aaron: So that’s really savvy.

Aaron: I like that.

Aaron: Let’s talk a little bit about real-time data.

Aaron: So like understanding activations and when people are in your space, we’ve come to this era of immediacy is a growing norm for most of us.

Aaron: So how does that shape your activations and more specifically, how do you identify when someone is actually at your malls?

Aaron: It may be a technical issue here, so I’m not sure.

Aaron: So go into as much depth or degree that you think is appropriate for our listeners.

Shivaji: So we obviously have our footfall trackers to start with.

Shivaji: So that’s a major KPI, a major number which we look at to start with.

Shivaji: Obviously, weekends are higher, weekdays the morning or the daytime is lower and whatnot.

Shivaji: So looking at those trends, but at the same time, we also have trained our concierge and loyalty executives, where you have to understand that when somebody uploads a bill to get rewards or points, they also has to have a manual check to it.

Shivaji: So the manual check also happens based on if the bill is valid, there are these kinds of situations that can come up.

Shivaji: So there is this complication of real time.

Aaron: Okay.

Aaron: Yeah, I get it.

Shivaji: But at the same time, what we also have tried to do is eliminate the part which can be fixed for instant gratification.

Shivaji: So we again, let’s go rapid and let’s be at full throttle.

Shivaji: While other malls are also doing things, we wanted to take this route where, hey, what can I do differently this time?

Shivaji: If somebody oppose a bill, there are chances where you might get instant gratification, because the bill was clear, the photo which you took is clear, your mall name, the amount, the date, and all those simple rules which we have to participate.

Shivaji: If it’s all clear, you might just get points, then and there.

Shivaji: That’s the beauty of it, and that’s how efficiency will come up.

Shivaji: Maybe when we are, these are training models, where we probably, as I mentioned, I have 1,000 retailers.

Shivaji: That means the data has to be trained according to that.

Shivaji: Now, if I look at footfall, and then I look at number of people uploading bills, that is constantly increasing right now.

Shivaji: Then the whole churn that the flywheel, as we say, the flywheel takes off the moment of redemption, and we get happy, like, hey, people are in there, and we would like them to get it there, not on the next visit.

Shivaji: Because again, that’s the highest level of customer delight I can achieve for a customer is if they earn and burn right there.

Shivaji: But again, like I said, there’s this complication of manual intervention.

Shivaji: I might not call it a complication, it’s a thought or check, which needs to be in place.

Shivaji: Again, we train people and we try to have a good turnaround time for that.

Aaron: No, I love that because one of the complications that we’ve always said in particular when you get into even like constructs like Coalition Loyalty, with certain retailers, there’s a lag in information coming over.

Aaron: This sounds like a savvy strategy that you put into a place to account for that.

Aaron: But then also, as you said, make sure that in the moment, the immediate experiences can still happen as well too.

Aaron: That’s brilliant for sure.

Aaron: Let’s talk a bit about the unique role or relationship, if you will, that exists between you as the mall operator and the thousand plus retailers that you mentioned.

Aaron: I’ve got a couple of questions for you.

Aaron: We can take them in turns, probably the easiest versus listing them all out.

Aaron: First, how are mall operators and retailers aligning to meet on this experiential expectations that you put into place as well as the purchase transaction?

Aaron: On a basic level, but then also these surprise and delights, are the retailers involved in the surprise and delight or is that just strictly from your side?

Shivaji: See, but we have both models.

Shivaji: One is an agnostic model where we say, you don’t worry about anything, we’ll take care of things the DLF way.

Shivaji: The other one is, hey, let’s collaborate, let’s build this together.

Shivaji: There are both models which we are experimenting and at the same time, the core is to keep it agnostic because the retailers are currently obviously running their own businesses and where we are saying, we are doing this on top of all the efforts you’re putting.

Aaron: Got you.

Aaron: Go ahead, sorry.

Shivaji: As much as we tell them that, don’t worry about it, we are building a program and this will bring more people in, but hey, we’re also open to collaborate.

Shivaji: We’re also open to build something specifically for you.

Shivaji: Eventually, we are doing all of this is for the retailers and customers together.

Aaron: No, I like that.

Aaron: Where I was going to ask was, it’s building on what you just said as well too is, how do you manage the prioritization then?

Aaron: If it’s additive, but at the same time, how do you prioritize communications from the retailer, from you?

Aaron: The differences in the valuing of the segments.

Aaron: Oftentimes, I’m going to imagine the customer you optimally want in the malls may not look like the same as for a particular retailer.

Aaron: How do you do all that prioritization and management?

Shivaji: We do newsletters, we do e-mailers, so we obviously have great relationships with our tenants, because it’s a business of doing things together.

Shivaji: Since the time we launched, there are constant or let’s say bi-weekly or a monthly channel where we disseminate our newsletter.

Shivaji: I can give you an example.

Shivaji: We did a campaign called Beauty, Beautiful.

Shivaji: It was related to all the beauty brands, the makeup and skincare and whatnot.

Shivaji: Another initiative what we took was that we sent out to all the brands in the mall where you say, hey, if somebody shops in your mall, we’ll probably give you two X points to the customer.

Shivaji: These are simple experiments which we are trying to test and see how this is going to work and people are enjoying it as well because we are making a pathway towards your store.

Aaron: I love this time in your journey, so to speak, because you’re in that experimentation, test and learn.

Aaron: You’re not presuming to have all the answers and you’re reading off of the customer needs and wants, so that’s brilliant.

Aaron: I guess, for me, the ultimate curiosity at the end of the day is with this almost, not frenemies, that’s not the right term, I wouldn’t say that, but this tug and pull, a little bit between the mall and the retailer.

Aaron: Who are the customers ultimately loyal to?

Aaron: Are they loyal to the retailers or loyal to the mall or can both coexist?

Aaron: What’s your thoughts?

Aaron: I’m curious.

Shivaji: In my opinion, I feel, it’s actually, the mall is the gateway.

Shivaji: It’s the gateway and it opens to all the brands.

Shivaji: So, there can be situations, like if I also just recall from my own personal life, like, hey, let’s go to this mall.

Shivaji: There are very few times where you say, I want to go to a brand A at this mall, because obviously that depends, maybe it’s an exclusive store and all of that, right?

Shivaji: But it’s usually, you say the name of the mall, which you want to go to.

Shivaji: And then you figure out what you want to do.

Aaron: I agree with you on that.

Aaron: Yeah, I’m thinking about my own experiences, and that’s probably naturally for me here in Canada as well, too.

Aaron: I would agree with you on that.

Aaron: That’s right.

Shivaji: Right.

Shivaji: So like, hey, you want to go watch a movie?

Shivaji: Sure.

Shivaji: Maybe you want to check the closest mall.

Shivaji: Maybe you want to check the timing wherever it’s showcasing that particular movie.

Shivaji: So it is subjective, but at the same time, I feel the mall is the destination.

Aaron: Yes.

Aaron: Yes.

Shivaji: I like that.

Shivaji: It’s a playground.

Shivaji: Do what you like.

Aaron: Yeah.

Aaron: No, I think that’s right.

Aaron: Thank you for triggering that for me.

Aaron: I hadn’t put it into my own personal context, but then as soon as you said that, I thought, oh yeah, I think about the mall name of, let’s go to that space, that destination.

Aaron: Exactly.

Shivaji: It’s a destination, then you probably do like if I say, hey, I want to go to Miami, I know and then I will go to the beach.

Shivaji: It’s one of those things where I probably pick a destination and that’s how you do it.

Shivaji: But again, like I said, there are times where people choose a mall also because of certain retailers, certain brands.

Shivaji: That’s how Mall A is more preferred than Mall B.

Aaron: No, that makes sense.

Aaron: Let’s build upon the idea of the retailer value proposition a little bit because I’d love to continue down your personal opinions on this as a loyalty expert.

Aaron: Here in North America, retailers, some, not all, but many, I would say, have been stripping out quite a bit of value out of their loyalty programs.

Aaron: But seemingly, that’s not the exact experience that I’m seeing worldwide.

Aaron: In particular, when we think about mall programs here in North America, in APAC, in India, they seem to be that additive value you’re talking about.

Aaron: Can you offer perspective on what’s different for retailers, maybe perhaps in the Indian region versus loyalty relative to other areas in the world?

Aaron: Just if you’re curious.

Shivaji: Sure.

Shivaji: There’s a lot how the business runs overall.

Shivaji: Initially also, I mentioned something about retailers and the mall work together.

Shivaji: That is the basic understanding of how it should be.

Shivaji: It can never be you versus me.

Shivaji: It has to be you and me.

Shivaji: If you have that, which is usually the case, that’s how you want to build it on.

Shivaji: In terms of relationships, there are so many brands in our malls which probably cater to such large audiences where also at the same time they are exclusive also.

Shivaji: Then it’s actually the relationship that brought them there and the brand value.

Shivaji: Like, hey, we would like to be in your mall.

Shivaji: We would like to be in that mall or probably that.

Shivaji: Again, this also can be about geographies.

Shivaji: It can be about which location you want to be at.

Shivaji: There is all these things that can happen, but once you’re together, you know that this mall is going to probably have more footfalls, can drive more sales, and at the same time, and that’s how you want to build.

Shivaji: Again, like I said, it’s a gateway.

Shivaji: How you do that, so it opens the door with the retailers, and at the same time, there are times where it’s the retailers who are like the ones who are like, hey, we are the brands, this is what we do, right?

Shivaji: And again, we roll out the red carpet for the customers.

Shivaji: So we try to bring in the experience.

Shivaji: So there are these intangibles also attached to this.

Aaron: Right, right, I like that.

Shivaji: The customer experience, it’s the ambience, it’s the vibe of the place.

Shivaji: It’s, you know, there’s so much.

Shivaji: People talk a lot about aesthetics as well, right?

Shivaji: So there is a lot of different elements of how one prefers to choose a mall and, you know, where they want to be.

Shivaji: And that’s how this whole thing is like.

Shivaji: You have constant support.

Shivaji: We have brand meetings every time.

Shivaji: So, you know, we are aligned retailers and malls, at least in our malls, very much aligned and on the same page.

Aaron: I like that.

Aaron: And I also like the idea that you’re bringing into this around the aesthetic.

Aaron: You know, certainly, I mean, it was always there, but I think it was compounded a bit more post the pandemic, where people are making very concerted decisions about the spaces, the people, the companies that they’re interacting with.

Aaron: And so you act as that broker, that gateway of that destination to be a space, one that’s safe, obviously, from that perspective, but two, just starting to curate, I think is the word that you use at the office, curate these experiences that align to someone’s psyche or personal status or just state of being to some degree.

Aaron: So that makes a ton of sense in terms of your role in brokering that.

Aaron: You know, this sector that we’re talking about, you know, mall-based loyalty is a bit of a non-traditional loyalty sector.

Aaron: Although you, of course, are supporting the retail sector of loyalty.

Aaron: But perhaps I’d love your industry perspective, just like take a step back and go higher level to all loyalty, because we’ve been probably, oh gosh, for about a year now, back and forth in various conversations in the loyalty industry around, you know, is loyalty stuck?

Aaron: And if so, how do we get it unstuck?

Aaron: But then we see programs like DLF Mall Rewards coming in, launching, you know, having the balance of the human and digital elements, achieving strong initial enrollments.

Aaron: You’re looking to expand, you’re experimenting.

Aaron: You know, what do you think, or sorry, where do you think we’re at in this industry?

Aaron: And what’s important for loyalty at this point?

Shivaji: I feel it started off, you know, I mean, we can go back to the loyalty history also, like it’s great, right?

Shivaji: We always talk about airlines, hotels, and, you know, there’s so much more, right?

Shivaji: So I would say every industry, in fact, so many B2B industries also pull this off, right?

Aaron: Of course, yeah.

Shivaji: Right.

Shivaji: And you want to ride the wave, right?

Shivaji: You want to ride the wave, but you need to step back again, right?

Shivaji: Like, hey, what can I add?

Shivaji: Or what can my organization add to this game?

Shivaji: And what people don’t understand is like, you know, if we talk about credit cards as well, as much as people know about it, people don’t, not everyone participates.

Shivaji: And that’s when they don’t get the benefits or the juice, I would say, right?

Shivaji: So what happens is I feel we are still in that phase where there’s a lot of awareness that needs to be out there because, and at the same time, the challenge is there are too many loyalty programs.

Aaron: Yeah, well done.

Aaron: And not differentiated, right?

Aaron: Like there are too many cities.

Shivaji: Exactly, right?

Shivaji: So you want to figure this out in terms of how do you create your own niche.

Shivaji: At the same time, I would always go back to building communities.

Aaron: Okay.

Shivaji: I would go back to, for me, building communities is so important because locations are very important in India.

Shivaji: I mean, I’m sure globally as well, which area you live in, because like I said, you’re commuting from work to home, to spend a weekend somewhere else.

Shivaji: It can be quite a distance at times and very time consuming.

Shivaji: You choose, like somebody who’s actually working and in the corporate world, they would particularly choose where they want to be and how they want to spend their time.

Shivaji: It becomes from that angle, like I would like to build community.

Shivaji: Loyalty programs in a layman term is a community building process.

Shivaji: Because you’re part of the community, you get benefits.

Shivaji: I would never say we are stuck.

Shivaji: I would rather say if people are thinking that they are stuck, let me do more experiments and I would like more people to do experiments, and maybe there’ll be a breakthrough again, and maybe that’s how you learn.

Shivaji: I feel every month, every fortnightly, I mean, I see there’s something or the other that’s coming up.

Shivaji: I don’t think we are in the business of being stuck.

Aaron: I like that.

Aaron: I like the idea of not change for change’s sake, but effective change of curiosity, like curious change, I guess, is what you’re looking at.

Aaron: That’s brilliant.

Aaron: To build these programs as a new program that’s out there, there’s a lot of partners that help in that success to get you to the first launch and the first person enrolling.

Aaron: Are there any specific partners that you want to talk about that helped you in terms of getting to where you’re at today?

Shivaji: For us, we started working with Capillary, helped us with this program.

Shivaji: Obviously, there’s a lot of customization that needs to happen because it’s not an e-commerce loyalty program.

Shivaji: It’s a very, very different game.

Shivaji: Each mall is separate.

Shivaji: The retailers are different.

Shivaji: There’s a lot of backend that had to be taken care of, and we are at a stage where we have brought everything together, rolled it out, and that’s how we learn.

Shivaji: Gradually, we’re at a stage where our reporting and analytics is mall-specific.

Shivaji: It’s not a universal chapter because we go back to each mall in a different way.

Shivaji: We go back to malls.

Shivaji: It’s not like DLF Mall Rewards is this, but we go like, hey, let’s talk about Mall A today.

Shivaji: Let’s talk about Mall B today.

Shivaji: So that’s how we like to have these pillars.

Shivaji: And that’s how we were able to build this.

Shivaji: It took a sweet time because there’s so many different stakeholders and whatnot, but we did it.

Shivaji: And at the same time, for us, as we are not doing anything through apps, for us, it’s WhatsApp and working based on how we figure this out.

Aaron: Well, that’s exactly why I asked the question because it’s a non-traditional sector, so the infrastructure, it’s not just portable, then it needs to be the customizations that you’re talking about.

Aaron: And then also, again, like you said, you’re low friction through WhatsApp, not a traditional structure of an app.

Aaron: So you had these nuances that are unique to you.

Aaron: So I was just curious about how you got to success.

Aaron: So thank you for sharing that.

Aaron: I appreciate that.

Aaron: Before I ask my final question, maybe I’ll open the floor to you for, I always like to do this, open the floor of anything that we’ve missed or anything that you think loyalty marketers and business leaders need to know about that we haven’t covered in this conversation today.

Shivaji: More than questions, I mean, I would always, I look up to people who are building more things.

Shivaji: And it’s exciting.

Shivaji: It’s very exciting to see what new the loyalty community is doing.

Shivaji: So for me, like, hey, OK, interesting.

Shivaji: This can be pulled off as well.

Shivaji: So I think the power of collaboration is the sky’s the limit.

Shivaji: And, you know, so I feel, because obviously, globally speaking, we have such great reward programs and loyalty programs.

Shivaji: But at the same time, we look forward to certain industries where it booms more probably than, you know, and at the same time, I’m very impressed how the B2B world does this, because they are never in the front.

Aaron: Right, it’s behind the scenes, you’re right.

Shivaji: Right, so there is that element where I’m like, hey, because as much as I’m doing loyalty, I also read a lot about it and, you know, what’s trending and what’s not.

Shivaji: So I would say in this space, for me, like, I would like to know so much more and, you know, keep interacting with you as well.

Shivaji: So you know, like how, right?

Shivaji: So, but that, I would say we are at a good stage where we want to be in, we’ll only grow.

Aaron: I love that.

Aaron: And yes, absolutely, we’ll stay in contact because I’m going down this learning experience with mall-based operators.

Aaron: As I said for 2025, I’ve spoken near now my fourth of the year.

Aaron: So I’m right in the nexus of this and I find it fascinating because it is a different way of thinking about how you engage in these customers, that experiential component, that you know, building of the surprise and delight, the DLF way, like that you’re talking about, all of these things come together to provide a different view on loyalty that is beyond just the programmatic, right?

Aaron: It’s at the upper level of branding.

Aaron: And you know, when to your point of when someone thinks about a mall as the destination, and I’m going to this mall to do my shopping with the retailers, or you know, some nuances where there’s an anchor retailer, as you said, but the idea that that is the first onus of the mindset and the psyche, and that’s where the loyalty lies.

Aaron: Like to me, that’s intriguing and is worth more exploration for us, and certainly we’ll dig into it at the Wise Marketer.

Aaron: But this is great, Shivaji.

Aaron: We always like to end our Wiser Loyalty series, Bill and I, with our own specific question, which is, can you share us one example from either your personal professional life?

Aaron: That was kind of this epiphany moment, if you will, where you just thought, this is why customer loyalty works.

Shivaji: When people actually redeem.

Shivaji: Okay.

Aaron: The payoff, it’s interesting.

Shivaji: Yeah.

Shivaji: Payoff.

Shivaji: I mean, that’s the ultimate goal, and I love it.

Shivaji: I love that when people are redeeming it, but it’s like, hey, this is what I made it for.

Shivaji: That’s how I see it.

Shivaji: At the same time, because I availed so many offers from various loyalty programs, I’m part of.

Shivaji: For me, it’s always a redemption.

Shivaji: It’s the delight, which like, hey, I got this because I’m part of this.

Shivaji: Hence, I spoke a lot about building a community, because once you have people in the community, they would like to stick around and you keep giving them good experiences.

Shivaji: So yeah, my answer would be redeeming.

Aaron: Redeeming.

Aaron: I mean, at the end of the day, that’s what we’re here for is to get something back.

Aaron: So that makes a ton of sense.

Aaron: Wonderful.

Aaron: Shivaji, what a great conversation today.

Aaron: I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us.

Aaron: I love what you’re doing.

Aaron: I’m curious to find out more in terms of your growth and your experiments as the program evolves and kicks into its next phase, as you talked about.

Aaron: Let’s make sure we keep in touch, of course.

Aaron: But thank you again and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in.

Aaron: We do appreciate your time as well, too.

Aaron: But with that, I’ll say adieu and have a great day.

Aaron: Thank you so much.

Aaron: Bye now.

Shivaji: Thank you for having me again, Aaron.

Aaron: Take care.

Aaron: Bye.

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