Cannabis Loyalty Unlocked: Marketing and Innovation with Embarc (#740)

Courtney: Our mission is to show that this plant is nothing to be afraid of.

Courtney: It is a force for good, but we can’t even talk about it.

Courtney: We can’t show it.

Courtney: We can’t market it in a way that is mature and responsible.

Courtney: A lot of people view cannabis as a commodity.

Courtney: And so how do we differentiate our store from others when we’re selling the same product?

Courtney: We do everything from, you know, lapse customers.

Courtney: We want to understand, like, what happened?

Courtney: What can we learn?

Courtney: You know, where did you go?

Courtney: And then also loyalty, you know, really tapping our most loyal customers to understand, like, why are they choosing us?

Courtney: There’s a part of me that I’m very optimistic, but I’m also realistic of, you know, based on what I’ve been seeing over the last several years.

Courtney: I think that we just have to keep doing what we’re doing.

Courtney: I think there’s a lot of creativity that’s involved in this industry and not creativity just in the literal design, but how you navigate certain things.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is part of the Wiser Loyalty podcast series and is hosted by Bill Hanifin, Chief Executive Officer of Wise Marketer Group.

Paula: Wise Marketer Group is an education, advisory and research and media service company, providing resources for loyalty marketers through three business offerings.

Paula: A global leader in loyalty education through the Loyalty Academy platform, which offers the certified loyalty marketing professional or CLMP designation.

Paula: A trusted advisor through its advisory and research services supporting loyalty brands, and a leading source of news, information and insights through the Wise Marketer digital publication.

Paula: I hope you enjoyed this episode brought to you by Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV in partnership with Wise Marketer Group.

Bill: Welcome everyone to the Wiser Loyalty Podcast.

Bill: I’m Bill Hanifin, and happy to have you here for this series that we co-produce with the Wise Marketer and also Let’s Talk Loyalty.

Bill: And today we’re going to bring you an interview that’s going to be really, really interesting.

Bill: I mean, the series always consists of talking with founders, innovators, executives, people that are in the C-suite and in senior marketing roles that are really making things happen and affecting change.

Bill: But today we’re going to break a little bit of new ground.

Bill: We’re going to explore the industry of retail cannabis, something that’s talked about a lot, but not nearly enough and not maybe in the centerpiece of marketing circles.

Bill: So not well understood.

Bill: So I’m hoping that with our guest here, Courtney Zalewski, that we’re going to be able to crack open some real knowledge, learn a few things and find out what the future of cannabis retail is going to look like.

Bill: But marketing in a regulated industry has got a lot of complexities.

Bill: We were talking a little bit before the interview about some of those, and I think it keeps Courtney busy during the day and up at night a little bit.

Bill: But Courtney, how are you today?

Courtney: I’m doing great.

Courtney: Thank you so much for having me.

Bill: Yeah, this has been a long time coming and well worth the wait, I think.

Bill: But I’m really excited about this because I think we were talking about how I’ve followed the industry for a while and you’ve been in it for quite some time.

Bill: So you’ve got as much knowledge as anybody that I’ve talked to.

Bill: So this will be fun.

Bill: But let me just let everybody know.

Bill: So Courtney Zalewski, your Chief Brand and Marketing Officer at Embarc, which is a modern community focused cannabis retailer in California.

Bill: You’ve got locations all around the state.

Bill: I counted 16 or 18.

Bill: Is my count anywhere close?

Courtney: 16, 16 and growing.

Courtney: We have a bunch more that are opening in 2026, but yeah.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: And everything I read, the research I did about the brand just got me excited too, because I mean, I just think about it this way.

Bill: It’s portrayed as California’s most trusted neighborhood cannabis shop with a mission to normalize cannabis.

Bill: That’s one big mission right there, to provide education and to integrate positively into the communities it serves.

Bill: And I saw when I did some research, a lot of the community building efforts and the charitable donations that you’ve made as a brand.

Bill: So that’s probably a really good place to start.

Bill: Just tell me if I nailed that at all and tell me what your brand stands for and what you’re up to at Embarc.

Courtney: Yeah, so we’re one of the fastest growing cannabis retailers in California.

Courtney: This industry has, it changes every single day.

Courtney: So there’s never a dull moment, that is for sure.

Courtney: But launched in 2020, we have 16 locations, as you said.

Courtney: In 2026, we are going to be opening up many, many more, so excited about our growth there.

Courtney: But our mission really is to normalize cannabis at scale.

Courtney: And so that means showing up responsibly, talking about the plant and its benefits in a responsible and immature way and developing these community relationships from the very beginning.

Courtney: So when we think about, I think what we’re trying to do, it’s just demonstrating that this plant can be a force for good.

Courtney: A lot of communities that we open in, we’re the first legal operator.

Courtney: So it’s not that cannabis is brand new in that community, but in a legal sense, it is.

Courtney: And so we take a great responsibility in that.

Courtney: And we have to listen, we build trust and invest locally to make sure that we are that trusted space for the communities that we’re in.

Bill: What’s the paradox about these days?

Bill: Because it seems to me like, to me, cannabis is mainstream.

Bill: It’s been legalized in many states.

Bill: It’s talked about a lot.

Bill: You see dispensaries.

Bill: I travel a lot, so I see dispensaries just seemingly everywhere I go.

Bill: But then there is this disconnect about a lack of understanding or lack of trust, or you have people on both sides of the issue.

Bill: But are we closer to mainstream than I think it is?

Bill: Or where are we in that journey?

Courtney: I think we are.

Courtney: I think that we’re more mainstream.

Courtney: I think that there’s more acceptance.

Courtney: I think there’s more curiosity and there’s definitely new people that are exploring how to incorporate it into their wellness routine.

Courtney: But on the marketing side, I don’t know.

Courtney: I think that we’re very, it feels like we’re really far away from getting the same room and flexibility that other industries have.

Courtney: And that’s, I think, one of the biggest challenges is that, while our mission is to show that this plant is nothing to be afraid of, it is a force for good, but we can’t even talk about it.

Courtney: We can’t show it.

Courtney: We can’t market it in a way that is mature and responsible.

Courtney: And so we’re, in some ways, left to using codes and emojis to kind of skirt around these regulations.

Courtney: And so it’s just a very interesting space to be in right now.

Bill: And so for those that don’t know, I mean, here you are in California, right?

Bill: I would say progressive state.

Bill: Even there, where it’s legalized, what can and can’t you say?

Bill: What can and can’t you do from an advertising point of view?

Courtney: We can’t, we can’t have billboards on Okay.

Courtney: So that’s number one.

Courtney: We can’t have a social media platform like on meta Instagram.

Courtney: That is a no-no.

Courtney: If we show the plant, if we mention it in a comment, if it’s the word is used or seen on photos and packaging, our accounts get taken down.

Courtney: And so there’s a real social media at the end of the day is where everyone goes, not only to escape and get entertained, but it’s to learn, it’s to keep in touch with what’s happening in the world.

Courtney: This is where a lot of people are getting news.

Courtney: And so the fact that that channel alone is not available to us is that hurts our business.

Courtney: And I think what everyone in the industry is trying to do, which is just educate and make sure that people do have the right information about what cannabis is.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: So it must be that some of the confusion comes because you have regulations state by state.

Bill: So I think I was telling you that I was in New York recently, and I know that I saw billboards for dispensaries there.

Bill: So apparently it’s allowed in some states, not in others.

Courtney: And that’s the other thing is that the regulations can also change city like municipality by municipality.

Courtney: So, you know, in California, while cannabis is legal, it’s not that every community has dispensaries.

Courtney: We still have to, you know, apply.

Courtney: We have to, you know, there’s merit-based application processes where several operators will compete to basically, you know, say, hey, I’m the best operator to exist here.

Courtney: Within each location, you know, the regulations change.

Courtney: So that also makes it difficult, especially for folks that are trying to, you know, exist not from in different states, multi-state.

Bill: I see.

Bill: Okay.

Courtney: Yeah.

Bill: Oh boy.

Bill: That’s a tricky road to navigate for you as a marketer, isn’t it?

Bill: Yeah.

Courtney: And the packaging too, it’s, you know, the packaging restrictions change state by state.

Courtney: You know, there’s a lot of regulations around the size of the font that you use.

Courtney: You know, it fits child resistant, which is really interesting because a lot of the packaging, you know, it’s intended to keep children out, but even adults, it’s difficult to open this sometimes, right?

Courtney: So it’s, you know, it’s not really like there’s an accessibility issue here as well.

Courtney: So yeah, I’m looking forward to the day that, you know, regulations start to loosen up or able to get on, you know, platforms and market and, you know, just be able to communicate what we want to in a clear way.

Bill: Right, right.

Bill: Makes sense.

Bill: So before we go further, I’ve got to ask you something.

Bill: There’s a Let’s Talk Loyalty question that we always ask at the outset of these interviews, but it’s just to know if you’ve got a favorite or recently read a non-fiction book.

Bill: Anything on your table or on the shelf that’s interesting right now?

Courtney: I mean, I was going to tell you that honestly, the emails, customer surveys, and my team’s messages, those are my non-fiction reads as of late.

Courtney: Okay.

Courtney: Maybe more like a thriller sometimes, but this book Unreasonable Hospitality, I might butcher his last name, but it’s Will Goudara.

Courtney: He’s a Michelin star chef, Eleven Madison in New York, and this book is really fascinating because yes, it’s about the restaurant industry, but it’s about providing value to customers, all types of customers going above and beyond and the power of doing that.

Courtney: I really think anyone that’s interested, obviously, in loyalty and marketing, it’s a good read.

Bill: Yeah, that’s great.

Bill: That’s great.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: I’m going to add that to my list for sure.

Courtney: I know how you like it.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: So tell me a little bit because it’s always good to know that the people, like how do you come into the cannabis industry?

Bill: Do you have a background in retail or a background in marketing in another area?

Courtney: Background, not in retail.

Courtney: So this is the past six years has been my first really been my first introduction on the retail side, but I started out in tech.

Courtney: So doing brand and design everything from UX to UI and brand strategy.

Courtney: And so when legalization was starting to happen, I noticed that there was an opportunity, an opportunity to introduce thoughtful brand, intentional branding and marketing, help kind of elevate what could be.

Courtney: And so I was just really excited about there wasn’t an interesting packaging.

Courtney: There wasn’t interesting anyone talking about their brand with a distinct point of view.

Courtney: It was just cannabis in mason jars at the end of the day.

Courtney: And so I got really excited about that and started a creative studio, advising and building brands all over the country, really.

Courtney: And then I ended up co-founding and co-creating the world’s first cannabis restaurant, which was a whole other journey in the Wild West, but again, another massive opportunity to help with normalization.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: I’ve got to ask you a cannabis restaurant just to find that for me.

Bill: What’s that look like?

Courtney: It’s probably not what you think.

Courtney: So if you think dark, dingy, black light posters, that’s not it.

Courtney: It’s beautiful, open air.

Courtney: This was a restaurant that was in West Hollywood, California.

Courtney: It had bright, open airy, spacious, order delicious salads, a hamburger, and next to it, you can have a bong if you want.

Courtney: Instead of a glass of bong, you can have a joint with your salad, instead of a cocktail.

Courtney: So really tried to make it as familiar as possible.

Courtney: That was a very, very cool experience.

Bill: That sounds promising.

Bill: I hope that Dream is still alive.

Courtney: Absolutely.

Courtney: I mean, I think that it was a great, we created the blueprint, I think, for what this concept can be moving forward.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: Just as an aside, have there been other copycats?

Bill: Have you seen it proliferating at all out in LA?

Courtney: There’s a couple.

Courtney: There’s a couple that are actually really great design.

Courtney: I think everyone is understanding that this is an opportunity to really shift the who consumes, how you consume, and what that looks like.

Courtney: So people, I think, are doing a good job, but definitely a lot of room to continue to grow.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: Interesting.

Bill: So let me ask you this.

Bill: So marketing strategy, brand building.

Bill: I mean, I’ve been in so many meetings like that.

Bill: Let’s get in and you start a planning session.

Bill: Just take me through what that looks like for you in the cannabis industry, because you’ve got to have concerns, challenges, restrictions that you already mentioned a little bit.

Bill: But I mean, the process has got to be different, right?

Bill: Because it’s one thing to ideate and put everything on the wall, and then a bunch of it, you’re just going to immediately say, no, can’t do that, can’t do that, can’t do that.

Bill: So how do you go about forming strategy and how do you navigate?

Courtney: I think that there’s a couple of things.

Courtney: One is we can’t, obviously, we’re looking out what next year is going to look like for us.

Courtney: We’re planning as much as we can, but the reality is the industry changes so frequently, that we have to be flexible.

Courtney: We have to be ready to act quickly when things change.

Courtney: What we’re seeing right now is there’s a true race to the bottom that’s happening, and that is very hard to…

Courtney: When the team is trying to create a brand that stands for something and is not just price driven, it’s really hard when the person across the street has the same product that is 75% cheaper.

Courtney: That’s the dynamics that we’re playing with right now.

Courtney: As we’re approaching strategy, it’s how do we remain competitive while playing a different game?

Courtney: That’s I think ultimately what it is.

Courtney: We’re choosing to play a different game than others right now.

Bill: So that’s interesting.

Bill: So one of my observations, a couple of years ago, I was in a dispensary out in Portland and I thought, you know, I feel like I’m in a wine store because they had product on display with just really elaborate descriptions, but thoughtful ones.

Bill: It wasn’t just, you know, writing to write.

Bill: But so there’s a big opportunity to differentiate the product, I would think, right?

Bill: I guess.

Bill: So do you have some players that are just price driven and trying to get it out cheap and others trying to offer obviously like a higher quality, more enhanced, more purposeful type array of products?

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely.

Courtney: I think that you see that on the brand side, but that’s also, you know, our responsibility as the retailer is curating these products and then helping guide customers and educating them on why this might be right for them.

Courtney: And that’s where it gets really tricky is that, unlike wine, for example, or coffee, cannabis does affect everyone differently.

Courtney: And so, yeah, I think that the more that we have, you know, just more thought, more education, and more language around what this is, the better.

Bill: Mm-hmm, yeah, okay.

Bill: So when I think about complexity, so you’ve got a regulated environment where there’s a lot of complexity, and then loyalty programs bring their own set of concerns, conditions, and such.

Bill: Mostly I’m thinking about data privacy, thinking about the permissions that you have to get.

Bill: And in California, that’s right.

Bill: You’ve got some very stringent policies around, you know, permissions for data use and all that.

Bill: But so when you set out to build the Passport Club, I mean, what did you…

Bill: Tell me, like, what your objective was with it.

Bill: Besides the obvious, you want repeat business, and you want to build relationships.

Bill: But just talk to me a little bit about that.

Bill: And then how did you navigate the combination of all these things?

Bill: Like, because I imagine you had restrictions on what you could offer within the loyalty program also.

Courtney: Yeah, I think, you know, there was a moment where, obviously, we want new customers, you know, but the idea of really just leaning in and trying to provide our existing customers the most value, that’s where we’re trying to spend our energy.

Courtney: And so we have that.

Courtney: Then we have, you know, at the end of the day, I think that a lot of people view cannabis as a commodity.

Courtney: And so how do we differentiate our store from others when we’re selling the same products?

Courtney: And so with the Loyalty program, that’s an opportunity for us.

Courtney: It’s a strategic move for us to really differentiate our brand, show our personality, how we are different from others.

Courtney: Right?

Courtney: And so it’s beyond just perks, right?

Courtney: We’re trying to show like who we are, what we stand for.

Courtney: We’re currently, you know, whether it’s the sweepstakes that we do through it or the experiences that we’re offering, that was, you know, a big evolution over this last year, you know, transitioning from just point-based and discounts to more experiences and limited access.

Bill: Oh, that’s interesting.

Bill: So tell me about that.

Bill: So you’ve already made that conscious kind of migration from just transactional to more experience-based.

Bill: What’s that look like in practice?

Bill: Yeah.

Courtney: So we took a lot of, you know, took a lot from, you know, Pepsi Points, American Express.

Courtney: Those are two, I think, you know, very well-known.

Courtney: But part of our business, kind of taking a step back, part of our business at Embarc is we do a lot with events, right?

Courtney: So we’re in, we’re bringing cannabis to the California State Fair.

Courtney: We’re, you know, putting on grasslands, which is, you know, at outside lands, massive, major, you know, mainstream music festival.

Courtney: And so experiences and concerts and all of that is really part of what our brand is.

Courtney: And so this next evolution was, well, how do we give that access to our customers?

Courtney: And so that’s where the points menu was really born.

Courtney: It was how do we take it’s, you know, the people love our loyalty program.

Courtney: They love getting, you know, discounts on their purchases.

Courtney: But what are other ways that we can add to that?

Courtney: And so now, you know, we have things like farm tours where brands will, you know, take our loyalty members and show them how the plants are grown, right?

Courtney: How pre-rolls are made.

Bill: That’s cool.

Courtney: Access to, you know, music festivals.

Courtney: So it really opened it up to more than just points.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: And then my first experience with some of the loyalty programs in the space was that for redemption, you could not redeem for product.

Bill: It was always for accessories or for merch or, you know, clothing and things like that.

Bill: But I thought I saw looking at your program that you can redeem for merchandise.

Courtney: Yeah.

Courtney: You can redeem for, we charge you a penny for it, but yes, you can redeem your points for anything that’s in our shop.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: Oh, that’s clever.

Bill: So you’re technically making a purchase with that penny?

Courtney: You’re technically making a purchase, yeah.

Bill: Interesting.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: That’s great.

Bill: I don’t know how much you can share.

Bill: A lot of times it’s hard to get numbers and metrics that you’re able to share, but how long did you tell me you’ve had the program and market?

Bill: And can you share anything at all about just take up and participation rates?

Bill: And maybe what’s most popular for redemption, things like that?

Courtney: I can tell you that the number one discount button at across all of our 16 stores is the loyalty that $5 off that you get.

Courtney: And so that is the most people, they want that $5 off.

Courtney: Second to that is the experiences in different products that we’re listing that are only available on the points menu.

Courtney: So what’s kind of cool about this is that, obviously, we’re able to see what customers are buying at within Cannabis.

Courtney: But now, our new program is giving us an extra layer of data.

Courtney: So it’s showing that, wow, this person has redeemed their points for this type of concert or this type of comedy show.

Courtney: So it’s just another level of or layer of data that we can really start to understand who is our customer.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: And are you doing some of that?

Bill: Are you doing some profile building and some surveys?

Bill: Are you doing much with surveys and just talking to people?

Courtney: We are.

Courtney: We actually, towards the end of the year, is when we really start to, we like to get all of that feedback in.

Courtney: But yeah, we do everything from, you know, lapse customers.

Courtney: We want to understand, like, what happened?

Courtney: What can we learn?

Courtney: You know, where did you go?

Courtney: And then also loyalty, you know, really tapping our most loyal customers to understand, like, why are they choosing us over all the other options?

Courtney: There’s many options out there.

Courtney: So the fact that, you know, we have built this loyal base, like, understanding from them or hearing from them is incredibly important.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: Have you been able to use your loyalty data at all for operations, like for, I don’t know, even product selection or just to sort of inform, like, how could the store be better?

Bill: Create a better in-store experience?

Courtney: We’re starting to get there.

Courtney: Yeah.

Courtney: That’s, you know, from the point, one of the things that we’re doing now is, you know, identifying who the customer is when they come in, right?

Courtney: And being able to greet a customer in a specific way based on who they are.

Courtney: If you’re returning after 90 days, my expectation is that our team is just showering you with, like, you know, Bill, welcome back.

Courtney: It’s so nice to see, you know, like, where have you been?

Courtney: Right?

Courtney: As opposed to a new customer, they should be looking at that and treating the person in a slightly different way, right?

Courtney: Really guiding them through the experience.

Courtney: So we’re getting better and better.

Courtney: I mean, obviously on the marketing side, we’re heavily using data, but then surfacing that to our retail employees is something that we’re getting better and better with.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: And I was going to ask you that, like, what’s the role of your employees, associates in the program?

Bill: Do they get a lot of training around the program?

Bill: Are they encouraged to be enthusiastic about it?

Bill: Like, is it central to what they do day to day in the stores?

Courtney: It’s a core KPI.

Courtney: We track it every single week.

Courtney: And we track it by store.

Courtney: We track it at fleet level.

Courtney: The teams are constantly talking about it.

Courtney: They’re talking about the program.

Courtney: They’re helping customers understand the value, not only in what they can save, but how they can use their points.

Courtney: And so we’ve done, I think, a really great job of making it a part of the retail DNA and training from day one.

Bill: That’s great.

Bill: That’s hugely important.

Bill: Like we see that as the best practice across all retail industries.

Bill: It’s like so much money and effort goes into planning and technology and analytics and all these things.

Bill: And then sometimes they miss that last step of bringing the associates into the program and really getting them equipped to be able to talk about it and be enthusiastic about it.

Bill: And that can be sort of make or break for success.

Courtney: 100%.

Courtney: And that’s the same with our retail team.

Courtney: They’re kind of the gatekeepers to all of this.

Courtney: If they like a product, they’re going to recommend the product.

Courtney: If they are excited about the loyalty program, they’re going to share that enthusiasm.

Courtney: And there’s like a sense of pride with it.

Courtney: The more that we can kind of create these programs that get our team rallied behind them and have their buy-in, just the more impactful they are.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: So I love your title, Chief Brand and Marketing Officer, right?

Bill: You’ve got those two together.

Bill: And I’m just wondering, like, in your capacity, like, what’s kind of your worldview about customer loyalty?

Bill: And do you see it as a program?

Bill: Do you see it as linked to your brand loyalty?

Bill: How central to the enterprise effort is it right now?

Courtney: Everything.

Courtney: I think, I mean, community at the end of the day is everything to us.

Courtney: And community is also our customers and our customers, right?

Courtney: It’s all interconnected.

Courtney: But the focus on loyalty and making sure that we’re really nurturing what we have, as opposed to constantly, you know, chasing new is, it’s sometimes hard, right?

Courtney: It’s hard.

Courtney: Like, I think focus is difficult, but loyalty and customer, our community is core to everything.

Courtney: Yeah.

Paula: Yeah.

Paula: Yeah.

Bill: So since you mentioned the word, tell me a little bit about, I read some things.

Bill: You’ve been not only involved in like the California State Fair and the music festivals, but donating significant amounts of money into the community for different causes.

Bill: But tell me about that a little bit.

Paula: Yeah.

Courtney: So we donate 1% of gross sales back to each community that we’re in.

Courtney: So each community has a community advisory board that is made up of local stakeholders.

Courtney: These are folks that are really in tune with what’s happening and where that 1% should go to.

Courtney: So they allocate those funds and we’ve done everything from beautification projects to youth drug prevention education.

Courtney: Yeah, we’re at, I think, it’s almost 2 million in give back.

Paula: Wow.

Bill: Wow.

Bill: That’s significant.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah.

Courtney: I think that’s another point of not only differentiation, but pride within our team, at the retail level and even at the global level, like really showing.

Courtney: When we say that we want to show that cannabis is a force for good, this is another example of that.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: There you go.

Bill: There you go.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: And it’s really, you mentioned the Patagonia story to me earlier, but we’ve looked at a lot of brands, especially since COVID, that seemed to be a trend that came out of a lot of research, that consumers really wanted to align their own personal values with brand values.

Bill: And you can see some brands do it as kind of an add-on.

Bill: You know, yes, we do that too.

Bill: And then others, it’s just in their DNA, whether it’s Tom’s or whether it’s Patagonia or all of that.

Bill: So it sounds like you’ve got it really baked right into the essence of what your brand is all about.

Courtney: Yeah.

Courtney: It truly is authentic to who we are.

Courtney: I think that it’s hard from a marketing perspective sometimes to shout about all of that, right?

Courtney: And talk about all of the good that we’re doing, because it can feel a little Icky sometimes, right?

Bill: Like we’re doing.

Courtney: So that’s been, I think, something that we’re trying to get better about, which is being more vocal about all of the good things that we’re doing and contributing to at the community level.

Courtney: But yeah.

Bill: You know what?

Bill: When it’s so authentic, it’s not Icky.

Bill: You can think of it that way.

Bill: It’s like when you believe in it and it’s so real, then you’re okay talking about it.

Bill: I bet I’m sure your customers would perceive it that way.

Courtney: Yeah.

Bill: It’s true.

Bill: Let me ask you just, so throughout this whole journey, have you had an epiphany moment anywhere along the way where you, I mean, you may have launched a loyalty program in all honesty, thinking like, oh, this is something we need to do.

Bill: Everybody else does it.

Bill: Let’s see if it works.

Bill: But or maybe you had a stronger belief, who knows?

Bill: But any epiphany moments along the way where you said, oh my gosh, this actually might, this is going to make a difference.

Bill: This might work.

Courtney: I think when we, I think there’s a couple of things.

Courtney: One, you know, getting feedback from customers and seeing it in the actual sales, right?

Courtney: Where when we can give someone something that truly speaks to them and it’s what they want, it’s not just garbage, right?

Courtney: When the customer feels, wow, they know me, they understand my preferences and they’re showing me that in the emails that we’re getting, the promotions that I’m being offered.

Courtney: That’s just a good feeling.

Courtney: It doesn’t matter what industry you’re in.

Courtney: That’s what I want as a consumer.

Courtney: And so I think that that’s kind of that magic moment.

Courtney: And then with the experiences, just getting the feedback around, you know, this is amazing that I have access to, you know, I had an amazing evening, you know, out with my partner at a comedy show or at the festival and seeing the pictures, you know, and having them share that online is just a very cool feeling and moment.

Bill: Yeah, that’s great.

Bill: That’s really cool.

Bill: So I was going to ask you if there’s anything you wanted to share that I had sort of missed, but I did want to ask you one thing.

Bill: I’ve got to ask you like just looking forward, like, how do you see the road?

Bill: Is it going to open up at some point?

Bill: Do you see anywhere in the near term that things will open up?

Bill: You’ll have more flexibility in marketing.

Bill: You’ll actually be able to get into the payment system in a central way.

Bill: I mean, are some of these issues, because I haven’t tracked like legislative proposals and things like that, but what kind of things are underway that will help you open up in those areas?

Courtney: I don’t know if we’re going to see anything, honestly, in the next year or so.

Courtney: I think that it’s probably going to be about the same, but there’s a part of me that I’m very optimistic, but I’m also realistic based on what I’ve been seeing over the last several years.

Courtney: I think that we just have to keep doing what we’re doing.

Courtney: I think there’s a lot of creativity that’s involved in this industry and not creativity just in the literal design, but how you navigate certain things.

Courtney: We’re going to continue seeing that, I think, until the playing field and things start to open up.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: Okay.

Bill: All right.

Bill: What did I miss?

Bill: Anything that was on the tip of your tongue that you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to?

Courtney: No, I think you got it all.

Bill: Covered it pretty much?

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: All right.

Bill: Courtney Zalewski, it’s been a privilege, really.

Bill: Thanks a lot.

Bill: Fun to talk about this.

Bill: I feel like we probably only scratched the surface.

Bill: There’s so many more questions I have about the business, but.

Courtney: I really appreciate you having me.

Courtney: Thank you.

Bill: Yeah, you bet.

Bill: Hopefully, we’ll get a chance to talk again in the future.

Bill: But thanks again.

Courtney: Awesome.

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