Loyalty Innovation in Global FMCG and Telecommunication Brands with MSET (#723)

Suky: I believe in our client.

Suky: I would go that extra mile for our client.

Suky: And to me, the rewarding satisfaction is when you see the results, right?

Suky: The results in how you see the program grow, you see the value, you see the feedback from the market, you see the feedback from consumers.

Suky: I think that’s the real passion.

Rajesh: There is a lot in terms of personalization that we speak about in terms of one-on-one personalization.

Rajesh: But this personalization could be done on a massive scale now, not just based on the transactional data, but also emotional data.

Suky: Starbucks in Saudi is the only market where they’ve changed the logo to fit in with the Saudi ecosystem, right?

Suky: So for us, branding is different in European markets than it is in the US market.

Rajesh: The goal gradient effect would be if you see the goal in your visual proximity, your efforts accelerate because you have the goal in your side.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty & Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: My name is Paula Thomas, and I’m the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is hosted by Lisa Brightwell, who founded and leads Bright Insights Consulting, a consulting firm based here in the UAE.

Paula: With over 20 years’ experience in the region, Lisa specializes in crafting innovative loyalty strategies that harness customer intelligence to drive engagement, differentiation and long-term growth.

Paula: Enjoy!

Lisa: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Lisa: I’m Lisa Brightwell, and today I’m really excited to be joined by Suky Bal and Rajesh Srimalani from MSET, a UAE-based digital solution company that’s helping brands build smarter and more meaningful loyalty experiences.

Lisa: MSET works with some incredible clients, including a global fortune consumer package good company and a leading Saudi telco.

Lisa: In this episode, we’ll uncover the story behind MSET and explore how they’ve co-developed a global CPG that’s driving growth and success worldwide.

Lisa: We’ll also dive into the challenges of managing loyalty in the telco sector and how applying psychological drivers has helped deepen engagement and strengthen loyalty at every step of the journey.

Lisa: Hope you enjoy.

Lisa: Hello Rajesh, hello Suky, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Lisa: Welcome to our lounge.

Suky: Thank you for inviting us.

Suky: Great to be here.

Lisa: Pleasure, pleasure.

Lisa: And I know Rajesh, you’re only three months in Dubai.

Lisa: So welcome to Dubai as well.

Rajesh: Yes.

Lisa: We’re recording from Dubai.

Rajesh: Yes, it’s becoming better and better in terms of the weather now.

Lisa: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Lisa: Absolutely.

Lisa: Good timing.

Lisa: And I know it feels sometimes when we’re in the studio, a little bit intimidating and I think you just said it feels like a job interview.

Lisa: But it’s going to be a great chat and I’m really looking forward to talk to you both, especially about CPG Loyalty.

Lisa: So I’m looking forward to today’s conversation.

Lisa: But first, before we start, we do this with every podcast.

Lisa: We always ask our invitees to talk to us about a book, a nonfiction book that potentially has inspired you, inspired your work life, your career, your leadership styles or just you in general.

Lisa: So if I can start Rajesh, could you tell us a book that has inspired you?

Rajesh: Sure.

Rajesh: For me, it’s Predictably Irrational.

Lisa: Okay.

Lisa: I love the title.

Rajesh: Yeah.

Rajesh: So the book contains all about, we think we are rational human beings, we make rational choices, but ultimately we are governed by psychological factors, which are not in our control.

Lisa: Interesting.

Rajesh: But the title of the book is Predictably Irrational.

Rajesh: So that means being irrational, there is still a certain amount of predictability that you can associate to it.

Rajesh: And that’s where you can play with it.

Lisa: Oh, that’s super interesting.

Rajesh: Yes.

Rajesh: So this book was my segue into the entire psychology, behavioral science and other associated things with this.

Rajesh: And that’s how I now apply them in loyalty programs and see the human side of the technology.

Lisa: Interesting.

Lisa: Well, I know we’re going to talk about that later.

Lisa: And I’m really excited.

Lisa: And I’ll add that book on my list because I love the title of it.

Lisa: And it sounds really interesting.

Rajesh: It’s by Dan Idley.

Lisa: OK, great.

Lisa: We’ll put it in the show notes as well.

Lisa: So if any of the listeners want to read it.

Lisa: But thank you for that.

Lisa: Suky, tell us yours.

Suky: So my book is a book called Outliers by Michael Gadwell.

Suky: So it was introduced by my best friend to me, especially when I was trying to understand, how do you create a company?

Suky: How do you create a team?

Suky: And that book basically said, you know, it’s about circumstances.

Suky: It’s about opportunity.

Suky: It’s about people.

Suky: And I think that book really helped me shape who we are today.

Suky: Or at least let me think about how I want to construct the team.

Suky: So for me, it was a massively impacting personal journey as I went through that book.

Lisa: Amazing.

Lisa: It’s on my list, actually.

Lisa: I haven’t read it yet, but I hear lots of really good things about it.

Suky: I would strongly recommend it.

Suky: It’s a very, very good read.

Lisa: I’ll read it and I’ll let you know afterwards.

Lisa: Okay, great.

Lisa: So tell our listeners please about yourselves.

Lisa: I would love you to introduce yourselves, what you do for the business, and then also tell us about MSET and the business, what it does and a bit more about the technology.

Suky: Sure.

Suky: Go ahead.

Lisa: Rajesh, you want to go?

Rajesh: Sure.

Rajesh: I have been into customer retention and loyalty space for the last 15, 16 years now.

Rajesh: Worked with FMCG, e-commerce, F&B retail, fintech, aviation, and had the opportunity to start a few programs from scratch.

Rajesh: With MSET, I am taking care of loyalty strategy and operations.

Rajesh: So Suky built this company up and he got us to work on the how of things and the human side of the technology, that what makes the consumer actually tick.

Rajesh: So our team of technofunctional consultants who would connect with global brands, figure out what their business objectives are, what their goals are, and sometimes their hope and dreams, and then convert them into programs or campaigns.

Rajesh: That’s a long shot of it.

Lisa: I love the notion of a tech company thinking human first, human motivation first, and then potentially designing around that.

Lisa: So it’s really interesting.

Lisa: I’m sure you can tell me all about that, Suky.

Suky: Yeah, so I think we started almost seven years ago.

Suky: I’ve been in Dubai for eight, so it’s like seven years ago.

Suky: We need technology for like 20 plus years.

Suky: Worked across multiple sectors, worked with, I believe, some of the greats like Mark Sage, Dave Batt, so there’s some really good people that I’ve learned from.

Suky: So when we started the company, I think it was more of an, you know, that’s why I think the Outliner’s Book is an opportunity.

Suky: We had relationships with a global CPG.

Suky: We had relationships within Dubai, and I think we capitalized on those.

Suky: And we started off with like an eight-man team.

Suky: We’re now almost 140 people working across multiple clients.

Suky: And we focused predominantly on our swim language, which was technology.

Suky: So when you say, you know, you asked me the question, what is MSET?

Suky: MSET was originally a technology play.

Suky: I think in the last two years, we’ve now gone almost 360.

Suky: So we moved into CRM.

Suky: We moved into marketing.

Suky: We build product.

Suky: So we kind of evolved from where we were to where we are today.

Suky: And I think where we are today is probably just a starting journey for us.

Suky: So I think we’ve sort of a long way to go as a business.

Lisa: Having a business is always a journey, right?

Lisa: And as a business owner myself, it’s where you start off and where you end up or where you go on the journey is always different to what you originally think.

Lisa: But it sounds like you are learning from what you need to do as a business to evolve and grow from there.

Lisa: And it sounds interesting.

Suky: Yeah, I think I learned and I’m still learning from the companies I used to work for.

Lisa: Yeah.

Suky: Right.

Suky: And you look at those and think, would I do it that way?

Suky: Would I empower slightly different?

Suky: And so I think one of the things that we’ve done, I think, really well, and I think we continue doing, we really believe in empowering people, right?

Suky: And then rewarding them doesn’t make a difference whether you’re the CFO, whether you’re the IT lead or whether you’re the DUNA QA.

Suky: We want to try to build a company that empowers everybody and rewards everybody.

Suky: So that’s one thing I think we really, really learned from our predecessor workplaces.

Suky: And I think the other aspect is that we’ve got some great talent working for us.

Suky: You know, our data guy, Indy, our campaign guy, Paul, Jag, etc.

Suky: These people have been with us through these years.

Suky: So they’ve actually helped us build a culture.

Suky: That’s really, really important.

Suky: And my belief is that there are so many technology companies out there.

Suky: But what makes us stand out is that we don’t believe we’re a technology company.

Suky: We believe we’re a partner to our clients.

Suky: And I think that makes a big, big difference in terms of how we approach things.

Suky: So we don’t stick to an SOW approach.

Suky: We think about what is right for the client, what is right for the customer.

Suky: And I think that’s what fuels us.

Suky: And that’s what drives our passion.

Lisa: So I guess is that a big part of the reason that you ended up winning a Saudi telco company and a Fortune 500 CPG?

Suky: I think it was that, and I think it was also circumstances.

Suky: That’s why, again, I’ll refer back to the book.

Suky: I think there was an opportunity.

Suky: I think we seized the opportunity.

Suky: But it opened the door.

Suky: But to keep that door open, you’ve got to work at it.

Suky: Running a business is probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done.

Lisa: Yeah, tell me about it.

Suky: Because ultimately, you’re going to make payroll.

Lisa: Yeah, 100%.

Suky: And you make sure that payroll works.

Suky: So I think people think it’s easy.

Suky: It’s a 24-7 job.

Lisa: 100%.

Suky: And it doesn’t stop.

Suky: And you always have to make sure that you’re…

Suky: We try to put ourselves in the position of the client.

Suky: What would the client think?

Suky: What would the client need?

Suky: And if you take that angle, I think your lens is very different to, I want to make a quick buck, right?

Suky: So I think we…

Suky: If you speak to my CFO, Stephen, he will say, we need to make money.

Suky: If you speak to me, we need relationships, right?

Suky: I believe relationships are stickier than trying to milk money, right?

Suky: And I think that’s what’s enabled us to grow with this global CPG.

Suky: We operate in across every continent.

Suky: We are product.

Suky: We are people.

Suky: And I think that’s a testament to who we are.

Lisa: Yeah, I love the partnership approach.

Lisa: You practice what you preach with programs as well.

Lisa: A program, loyalty program is about making relationships.

Lisa: And it’s the same when it comes to partnerships.

Lisa: But you mentioned CPG.

Lisa: And I think we talked about this before we started recording.

Lisa: I am super interested to talk about CPG programs, because not only are they not that many out there in the world, but they’re also very difficult to run.

Lisa: So can we talk a little bit about some of the challenges you see with CPGs?

Lisa: And loyalty in general, maybe Rajesh?

Rajesh: Sure.

Rajesh: I think CPG has a unique challenge in terms of the first-party data.

Rajesh: So it’s always been a data black hole.

Rajesh: So they would not know who their consumer is, what they have bought and what they have done with it.

Rajesh: So there’s no way to create that journey for them.

Rajesh: So when we create that bridge, which is created through a pack code or through other means as well, we now know who the consumer is.

Rajesh: We now know the entire journey.

Rajesh: But you also see this is a very tricky situation because there is a lot of friction here.

Rajesh: Because the user has already made the purchase and you’re asking the consumer to take that extra step, to go ahead and scan.

Rajesh: So everything should work seamlessly.

Rajesh: That scan code should work seamlessly.

Rajesh: That app should work seamlessly.

Rajesh: If there is any kind of friction, there’ll be drop-offs.

Rajesh: So we have to make sure that everything is seamless there.

Rajesh: We reduce the friction.

Rajesh: Also, the value proposition has to be that strong.

Rajesh: Because you’re asking for extra steps now.

Rajesh: It’s not automatically enrolled in the program.

Suky: No, and just to build on that, a parent’s job to be done is not a loyalty program.

Suky: Their job to be done is looking after the baby, making sure the diaper’s right, making sure the baby’s healthy.

Suky: So driving that behavior of opening an app, doing an activity, feeling rewarded for it, is probably the biggest challenge, because what we see is typically there’s a drop-off point, right?

Suky: How do you make sure that drop-off point is further stretched out?

Suky: What can you do for the parent?

Suky: Yeah, so that’s been, I think, the biggest challenge is churn, right?

Suky: And then also with a CPG, there’s so much competition out there.

Suky: How do you make sure not only is your product superior, but you’re offering is superior, right?

Suky: So that’s the other aspect of the challenge that we face, right?

Suky: And that’s where we work very closely with our partner, the CPG, to make sure what we’re giving to the consumer is rewarding enough, right?

Suky: And they feel value in doing that activity that we’re asking them to do, because first-party data is difficult to get hold of from the retailer.

Lisa: 100%.

Lisa: And also, I think customer acquisition is really hard.

Lisa: How do you get them into that funnel?

Lisa: Because they’d have to do a lot of marketing to get people aware of the program.

Lisa: And once they’re in, you get that first-party data.

Lisa: But once you’re in, you’ve also got to make it compelling enough to get them to get in.

Lisa: I have to be honest, I haven’t engaged with many CPG programs.

Lisa: And so when I knew we were going to have this conversation, I started to ask myself the question why.

Lisa: And it was moreover that I probably just didn’t know about them.

Lisa: And so I think it is a challenge, is how to make sure the brand can get that knowledge out there to the customer.

Lisa: But also, what you do, how do you tackle those challenges, though?

Lisa: How do you, as a business in partnership with the CPG, help that kind of customer acquisition piece?

Suky: So, I think for us as a business, the way we tackle it is we’re in it together.

Suky: Their success is our success, right?

Suky: So we make sure that when we’re ideating ideation sessions, or whether we’re brainstorming, we’re actually at the ground zero level with them, right?

Suky: We also make sure that, you know, what we deliver, we validate, yeah?

Suky: So we have a great data team, yeah?

Suky: So we’re actually analyzing feature capability.

Suky: We’re feeding that back into the product life cycle, right?

Suky: We’re working with their C-suite people in terms of driving that acquisition and that program.

Suky: We’re working with their other partners, because in this ecosystem, it’s not just us, right?

Suky: There’s creative brands, still the folks like Sarchi and Sarchi.

Suky: There’s other brands, right?

Suky: Who are doing SEO aspects.

Suky: So our role is to be the best partner we can with the best in class intent to help that ecosystem move, right?

Suky: And that’s where people like Rajesh come in, people like Paul come in, where they have that domain knowledge, right?

Suky: So we’re not just a pure tech player.

Suky: I think we like to split tech and business.

Lisa: Yeah, fair.

Lisa: Okay, good.

Lisa: And so from a telco perspective, I know that you work with a large Saudi telco.

Lisa: Telco is also a difficult space for loyalty because of the size of the bases usually and the propensity to churn based on people wanting to go to other providers because of price or potentially allurement of a new device.

Lisa: What do you see as some of the challenges in the telco loyalty space?

Suky: So one of the biggest challenges that we see with our client, it’s hard to move a telco.

Suky: There are smarter players coming up, lot nimbler, who can react a lot quicker, can actually adapt to the market a lot quicker.

Suky: And I think the challenge that we see is often the red tape in a large corporate telco is a blocker to actually innovating.

Suky: So that’s one challenge.

Suky: You mentioned churn, 100%.

Suky: The customers aren’t loyal.

Suky: If somebody gives them a deal for 100, they will drop that and go to that.

Suky: So churn is big.

Suky: So I think loyalty alone has to be coupled with the product offerings from the telco and the co-hand in hand.

Suky: And I think customers, my view is there’s probably a set of customers that are loyal, but the majority are all transactional.

Suky: It’s how long can you keep hold of them.

Suky: That’s the name of the game, at least for us in loyalty, in the mobile sector.

Suky: I don’t want to add to that.

Rajesh: Yeah, I think churn here is different.

Rajesh: Churn here is like in CPG, churn could be a leading indicator, but in telcos, it’s a lagging indicator.

Rajesh: So you would only know when the churn has already happened.

Rajesh: And they are fighting this entire thing of not seen as a utility like a water or a gas, which is like because there’s no much differentiation there.

Rajesh: So how do you do that?

Rajesh: That’s a challenge.

Rajesh: But they also have certain advantages.

Rajesh: There is frequency, which is like in their side.

Rajesh: So you know at a particular frequency, you get their average order size is bigger.

Rajesh: So you know you’ll be able to build those rewards inside the PNL because the, you know the customer life cycle now, right?

Rajesh: So there are a lot of benefits, but there are challenges in terms of how you are seen.

Rajesh: The switching cost, they try and keep the switching cost high as one of the factors, but still not being branded as a utility is one of the challenges that we have seen.

Lisa: Yeah, I can understand that.

Lisa: And so what are some of the strategies you’ve done as a partner with your telco to kind of drive loyalty and mitigate some of these challenges?

Suky: Special clubs.

Suky: Special clubs.

Suky: Special clubs where inspirational rewards, Right.

Suky: Exclusive events.

Suky: Right.

Suky: Because people feel they love that.

Suky: Right.

Suky: It’s like a special.

Suky: Right.

Suky: So.

Lisa: Status.

Suky: Yeah, it’s great.

Suky: Great word, status.

Suky: So it’s making sure that they stand out.

Suky: Yeah.

Suky: Even to the fact that the mobile app colors changes.

Suky: Right.

Suky: You know, it becomes gold.

Suky: You know, to me, it wouldn’t be like that, but to some people appeals.

Lisa: Right.

Lisa: Particularly in this region.

Suky: In this region.

Lisa: Right.

Suky: So I think status and those inspirational aspects are very big.

Suky: But I think the challenge still in the telco is they see as a cost center, not as a profit center.

Suky: Right.

Suky: So it’s all about how can you squeeze further down?

Suky: Right.

Suky: How can you release more margin?

Suky: So we’re constantly battling that.

Suky: But our what we do believe that works is that inspirational aspect and that status.

Suky: That does drive.

Lisa: Yeah, great.

Lisa: Okay.

Lisa: And in the CPG space, like in terms of driving loyalty, any other ideas of how you guys have been able to engage some of the challenges?

Rajesh: I think we build this entire thing of how you would see the consumer inside the life cycle of work.

Lisa: Yes.

Rajesh: So that’s how we are able to tackle that thing.

Rajesh: So essentially, you’re giving out certain points and rewards.

Rajesh: Consider this, a Teleco, your average order size would be somewhere around about 80, and a CPG would be five.

Rajesh: So what percentage would you give out to make a meaningful reward?

Rajesh: Not really much, right?

Rajesh: So then we have to work on certain factors and see how do we build that consumer journey so that they are motivated enough to go through.

Suky: I think just on top of that, I think the parent, at least in the CPG that we deal with, is a lot more demanding than the Telco one.

Suky: So if there’s any issue whatsoever in that journey, you will lose that parent.

Suky: So you have to be flawless in execution, right?

Suky: From the point where they open the app to the point where they redeem, right?

Suky: Because what we see is that if there’s any breakage in that journey, you potentially lose that parent, right?

Suky: And these parents, unlike the Telco world, these parents actually post their comments back on store reviews.

Suky: And some of them are really brutal, right?

Suky: But they’re real, right?

Lisa: They’re probably tired parents.

Suky: Yeah, tired parents.

Suky: And it’s not their job to be done, right?

Suky: Lot is not their job to be done, other jobs to be done.

Suky: And then what we also find is that if you don’t crack that, these parents will take the time to write to the call center.

Suky: Now, the challenge there is every call that comes in, every comment that comes in, there’s a cost to the program, right?

Suky: So you’ve got this negative side, if you don’t get it right, right?

Suky: Which drives the program cost up.

Suky: Forget what the base cost is.

Suky: It’s the variable cost that is impacted by the lack of quality if you don’t do right.

Suky: So I think the CPG’s demands are a lot higher than I would say in the telco world, right?

Suky: Because telco world people will say, okay, if it doesn’t work, it’s okay.

Suky: The churn is, as Rajesh mentioned, very less.

Suky: But in the parenting world, it’s a massive churn if you don’t get it right.

Lisa: Yeah, I guess it also depends on the product of the CPG, right?

Lisa: In a particular example we’re talking about, if it relates to parents, there is a short, there’s a lifespan on that because depending on what product it is, you might not need it anymore or your needs might evolve.

Lisa: If it’s a different type of product, it’s a product that you consistently and habitually buy all the time.

Lisa: It’s a total, also a different mindset in how you manage as well.

Lisa: I know you work in the family sector.

Lisa: So it’s very interesting for me that it creates a loyalty program, but actually I won’t need it.

Lisa: I might not need it anymore or might not be engaged with it anymore.

Lisa: It’s an interesting challenge.

Lisa: How do you work with your partner on that in terms of the thinking of creating enough value for them to engage in a short life cycle of their lifetime with that product?

Lisa: I’m interested to know just kind of how you approach it.

Suky: I think it’s so the way we’ve approached in the past with the partner is that in that life cycle, there’s stage gates.

Lisa: Right.

Suky: And typically what we see is that people drop off after like stage gate two or stage gate three.

Suky: Right.

Lisa: What is that stage gate?

Suky: It could be age, for example, as an example of this CPG.

Suky: So for us, it’s really, really important is that how do we make sure that parents understand what that lifespan is.

Suky: So it’s not like one, two, three, it’s five, six, seven.

Suky: Right.

Suky: And what we do, or at least the team does through CRM or through campaign is educating the parent.

Suky: Right.

Suky: And then giving them, unlocking them rewards that allow them to continue on that journey.

Suky: Now there’s a fine balance of cost versus retention.

Suky: Right.

Suky: But it’s driving that milestone journey to prolong their life in the program.

Suky: So you drive the LTV higher.

Suky: Right.

Suky: Because that’s the ultimate goal.

Suky: Right.

Suky: You’re ultimately selling product.

Suky: How do you make those parents buy more of that product?

Suky: Yeah.

Suky: And that’s our job together with our client, together with the creative agency, to make sure that we do that.

Suky: Right.

Suky: In no matter what we do.

Suky: And that’s why I still believe the fundamentals is, you’ve got to have a good product.

Suky: And that product is not just our product, it’s also the product the CPG is selling.

Suky: Yeah.

Suky: And it’s also the product that the parents are buying.

Suky: So how do you make sure all that is best in class?

Lisa: My mind’s buzzing at the minute, because I’m thinking, how cool would it be in the family space that ultimately you know there’s a finite period?

Lisa: Well, it depends if you have multiple children in the family.

Lisa: It depends, but there is going to be a finite period.

Lisa: I wonder whether when you get to that period, you get some kind of reward.

Lisa: Well done, you made it.

Lisa: You made it through parenthood.

Suky: Here’s your concept.

Lisa: Yeah, it could be an interesting idea.

Lisa: But why do you think that there aren’t loads of CPG?

Lisa: And I realized I didn’t spell that out for the audience, just in case people don’t know CPG, Consumer Packaged Goods.

Lisa: But why do you think there are not more kind of CPG programs that we see out there?

Lisa: Why do you think that people aren’t jumping on that kind of investment in that?

Suky: I think it’s hard.

Lisa: Just because it’s hard?

Rajesh: Correct.

Rajesh: It’s a friction that we spoke about.

Rajesh: It’s also the margins.

Rajesh: The margins are not that high.

Rajesh: Also, it’s a very delicate relationship with the retailer that you have.

Rajesh: If you are creating something of your own, retailer would be threatened and then it becomes challenging because you are selling through that shelf space, right?

Lisa: Yeah.

Rajesh: So it’s a little delicate balance.

Suky: And there’s a couple of global, like Nestle has one.

Suky: Code, did it really well on code on the code, right?

Suky: So I think there are a few, not probably many.

Suky: But as I said before, I think the biggest challenge is the entry barrier, right?

Suky: It’s not easy, right?

Suky: And even if you think of like the CPGs we have, getting a, whether it’s a QR code, a code or something on that item, think of the logistics you have to go through, right?

Lisa: Globally as well.

Suky: Globally.

Suky: All the way from the production line, all the way to what’s on the shelf, right?

Suky: So it’s not just like a sign up, here you go.

Suky: There’s a whole ecosystem that’s required.

Lisa: Is that consistent with your client across all markets or is it different?

Lisa: That’s an interesting question from my side.

Suky: I would say it’s probably 80-20 rule, right?

Lisa: Okay, right.

Lisa: Okay.

Suky: Because you have localization, you have behavior that’s different.

Suky: So if you go to Japan, the behavior of the shopper is very different to the behavior of the US who buy big bulk, right?

Suky: So there’s a behavioral difference, right?

Suky: And then I also think there’s production line differences, right?

Suky: So what we do maybe in the US may not work in Japan around the production line.

Suky: So the goal is to get to that kind of consistency.

Suky: But I think you always have that 80-20 variation, because I think you have to localize the program.

Suky: So even if you look at Starbucks, Starbucks in Saudi is the only market where they’ve changed the logo to fit in with the Saudi ecosystem, right?

Suky: So if you have to do those things.

Suky: So for us, branding is different in European markets than it is in the US market, because of what people resonate with.

Lisa: Probably things that people don’t think about when they think about CPGs and global CPGs is the intricacies of that globally and what you have to consider is quite a lot.

Lisa: I can imagine it was quite tough.

Suky: It is tough.

Suky: And I think, I remember having a conversation with the IT director.

Suky: I disagreed fundamentally that you cannot have a cookie-cutter program, right?

Suky: Because they want to go cookie-cutter.

Suky: Oh, we can just roll it out to markets.

Suky: Ako, but you understand, this is not a content play, right?

Suky: It’s a behavioral play in some way, right?

Suky: And the Indian shopper is very different to the UK shopper.

Suky: And he’s very different to the US shopper.

Suky: So what ignites the Indian shopper is going to be very different to the UK shopper.

Suky: And sometimes that’s the look and feel, sometimes that’s the reward, sometimes that’s the earning mechanism.

Suky: It’s very, very different because you got competition in each of those markets, right?

Suky: So in India, for example, there’s a particular CPG who sells one single unit of an item, right?

Suky: We can’t, you know, our CPG can’t do that.

Suky: It’s not cost-effective, but that’s who you’re competing against.

Lisa: Yeah.

Suky: Right.

Suky: So I think there’s challenges on the market.

Lisa: Yeah.

Lisa: Now I can definitely sense that you, it’s not just about tech for you.

Lisa: You really get under the skin of what the brands need because you need to be able to do that, to develop the right capabilities from a tech point of view.

Lisa: So I’m really getting that from you guys.

Suky: Yeah.

Suky: Yeah.

Suky: You know, if you were to speak most of our people, they wouldn’t say they work for us.

Suky: They would say they work for our clients.

Suky: And I’m not exaggerating that, right?

Suky: Even if I think the way I wake up in the morning, I believe in our client, right?

Suky: I would go that extra mile for our client.

Suky: And to me, the rewarding satisfaction is when you see the results, right?

Suky: The results in how you see the program grow, you see the value, you see the feedback from the market, you see the feedback from consumers.

Suky: I think that’s the real passion, right?

Suky: I always believe you can get clients anywhere, but if you can get that ingredient, and I think that motivates you more.

Lisa: It’s a partnership.

Lisa: It’s a true partnership.

Suky: True partnership.

Lisa: And so just thinking about moving forward with CPG and Telcos, what do you think the future is, Rajesh?

Lisa: What’s the future hold in these spaces?

Rajesh: I think there is a lot in terms of personalization that we speak about in terms of one-on-one personalization, but this personalization could be done on a massive scale now, not just based on the transactional data, but also emotional data.

Rajesh: Because when we talk about personalization, what is personal to one person would not be personal to another person, right?

Rajesh: So there is a difference.

Rajesh: But we’re not talking about colors, we’re not talking about likes, dislikes.

Rajesh: At core fundamental level, people are different.

Rajesh: If you’re able to map those, then you can create a really true personalization.

Rajesh: And that can be done at scale through with the data, with the AI now put together.

Rajesh: So I think that’s going to be a little futuristic, where we see the core motivators being weaved into the program.

Lisa: Suky, the future?

Suky: You know what?

Suky: It’s an unknown, right?

Suky: I think the way AI is going and adapting, I think anything’s open, right?

Suky: So if I had a predictive ball, I will let you know, but I’m not sure, I’ll be honest.

Suky: I just think one of the things I do agree with Rajesh on is that it will all be about the data.

Suky: The more data the CPG can have, the stronger they are and not dependent on the likes of the retailer or Amazons of this world.

Suky: They need to be able to control that journey.

Suky: How?

Suky: I think that’s the unknown right now.

Lisa: Yes, it’s the same with telco.

Lisa: The more data you have on the consumer, the more able to personalise the experience, the more sticky you can make it in what is a relatively unstable, sometimes unsticky world in telco.

Lisa: We talk about data and I think, interestingly, one of the conversation points we want to talk about was psychological drivers.

Lisa: I know Rajesh is an area that you’re particularly passionate about after your book reveal.

Lisa: For me, loyalty, really, there are three core principles for successful loyalty programs.

Lisa: There’s the transactional loyalty, where I do something and I earn value.

Lisa: There’s the behavioural loyalty, where I’m engaging and I keep engaging.

Lisa: And then there’s that kind of emotional loyalty, where I really feel connected to that brand.

Lisa: And psychological drivers can be used to kind of push all three of those principles.

Lisa: And I know you have a particular passion in these psychological drivers.

Lisa: So tell us how you use them in your loyalty and programs.

Rajesh: All right.

Rajesh: I really like what you said, you know, the different types.

Rajesh: So at the core, if you talk about loyalty, loyalty is a value exchange.

Rajesh: Either you’re deriving value or you’re driving value for the community or you’re being valued.

Rajesh: So it’s a value exchange at the end of the day.

Rajesh: Now, which side?

Rajesh: It’s not neither or.

Rajesh: It’s a mix of all these things.

Rajesh: So we believe every loyalty program is a behavioral science model.

Rajesh: So we bake in these psychological principles, drivers, into the program from the very start, like the user journey.

Rajesh: So I can give you a few examples.

Lisa: Yes, please.

Rajesh: So when a consumer starts on the journey, like say, for example, if a parent is starting on the journey on the app, we would use endowment effect.

Rajesh: So we would not show them an empty account.

Rajesh: We would endow them with 200 points.

Rajesh: Now, endowment effect says that, yes, if you own something, you will ascribe more value to it.

Rajesh: So that means that they have got a head start, they will own the experience, they are far less likely to abandon the app.

Lisa: Nice.

Lisa: Never at zero as well, which I like.

Rajesh: There are others as well in this.

Rajesh: There is a goal gradient effect.

Rajesh: There is a temporal discounting.

Lisa: Talk about it.

Lisa: What is goal gradient effect?

Rajesh: Goal gradient effect would be, if you see the goal in your visual proximity, your efforts accelerate, because you have the goal in your sight.

Rajesh: So a lot of programs do this.

Rajesh: Starbucks has this, Sephora has this.

Rajesh: You would see a tracker, but you would see points that how far along are you in the journey.

Rajesh: So if you see the progress, you’re more activated to achieve that.

Rajesh: So that’s the goal gradient effect.

Rajesh: We also deploy that.

Rajesh: And I’ve seen some programs take it to another level altogether where they would have nonlinear skills.

Rajesh: So if you are at 20%, they will show at 30% visually.

Rajesh: They call it visual, like a visual motivator.

Lisa: It feels like you’re doing better than you actually are.

Rajesh: Yeah, but we don’t endorse it.

Rajesh: We say that, you know, the entire thing is about trust from the consumer.

Rajesh: If you’re diluting the trust anywhere, it’s not worth it.

Rajesh: So if they feel that they have been cheated somehow, it’s not worth it.

Lisa: Trust in itself is a psychological driver, right?

Lisa: You know, you want to have trust in the program.

Lisa: And so you guys, as a team, you will sit with clients and support them in the kind of development of their product, their user experience by consideration of these psychological drivers.

Lisa: Is that how you kind of, how do you manage that process with clients?

Lisa: You work hand in hand in that development.

Suky: Yeah, so the the concept that we have with the client, it’s a Silicon Valley contract, it’s called PDE, product manager, designer, engineer, right?

Suky: So we operate in that kind of trio, right?

Suky: And they work hand in hand.

Suky: So when we do product backlog refinement, when we do discovery, we’re all engaged in that, yeah?

Suky: So even the consumer feedback that we get, we get to see that visibly, right?

Suky: Then we get to work on that.

Suky: So it is really hand in hand, versus saying, just build us this, right?

Suky: Because that’s the other way of looking at it, as an ex-technical partner.

Lisa: What happens a lot, to be fair.

Suky: Yeah, so we believe that’s wrong, because we think we have more value also in that conversation, the client believes that as well.

Suky: And I think that’s what helps us drive.

Suky: And it also means you got skin in the game, right?

Suky: It’s not that you’re just building something from, you’re actually responsible for driving the behaviour of that challenge.

Suky: And that’s where I think data plays a very important part, loyalty plays a key part, the technology team plays a good part, and even the operational aspect of it, right?

Suky: So we do full 360, once we deploy, we make sure what we deployed actually works.

Suky: So we’re measuring those features, we’re measuring the outcome.

Suky: And again, it’s a strong partnership, right?

Suky: So we work together.

Lisa: Yeah, I think throughout this whole conversation, that what’s really stood out is how your approach to MSET as a business with the clients you work with is in partnership.

Lisa: Your deep understanding of loyalty, your background in that, and your technical capability to bring the two together to kind of drive exceptional results.

Lisa: So on that, Suky, thinking forward, are there innovations in technology in the loyalty space that you’re particularly excited about?

Lisa: I’m going to say outside of AI, because we talk about AI so much.

Lisa: Is there anything else that you think is interesting that’s coming up that you’d like to explore more?

Suky: Yeah, so we’ve started exploring the gamification aspect, right?

Suky: I think that’s the untapped area, right?

Suky: So Rajesh is working with a company out of India, right?

Suky: In terms of building that capability, that’s definitely one.

Suky: The other aspect of loyalty outside of AI that we’re really focusing on is what we’ve not done a great job on is the whole fraud management aspect of it, right?

Lisa: Oh, that’s huge in Telco as well.

Suky: Yeah, so it’s huge, right?

Suky: And I think as you start looking at more of budgets, as you start making pump more money in the program, you want to stop that leakage, right?

Suky: So you wouldn’t believe some of the stories we’ve seen people trying to game the system, right?

Suky: And whether it’s $1,000, $100,000, it’s still money that’s leaking out that you can pump back into the program.

Suky: So together with our partner, the client, we want to really focus on the fraudulent aspect of the program while still making sure we are best in class loyalty.

Suky: Because that was an area that we tried to push hard.

Suky: The client didn’t always see that because they thought, no, we just need to get more consumers, get more consumers.

Suky: But now you can see the leakage happening.

Suky: How do you stop that leakage?

Suky: So what we’ve started doing is focusing on that, and we built some products around that.

Suky: Basically, by looking at other products in the market, saying, if we were to do it, what would we do differently?

Suky: So you take a bit of that, take a bit of that, take a bit of that and build something.

Suky: So we’ve taken that kind of approach, and that’s worked out pretty well for us so far.

Lisa: Nice, I love that.

Lisa: I think fraud is something that is unfortunately part of our industry.

Lisa: And I think telcos is a good example of where they unfortunately do suffer from a lot of fraud.

Lisa: And yeah, it’s great to see that you’re looking at how you can combat that.

Lisa: So amazing.

Lisa: So we’re coming close to the end now of our conversation.

Lisa: I wish I could chat all day.

Lisa: I’ve actually got lots of other questions in my head, so maybe we’ll have coffee after.

Lisa: But just one last final question I like to kind of ask people.

Lisa: What are you most proud of in terms of what you’ve done?

Lisa: I can imagine as a business owner, there’s a lot there.

Lisa: So I’m going to start with Rajesh, and then I’ll come back to you, Suky.

Lisa: What are you most proud of working with MSET?

Rajesh: I think I’m proud of the people that I’m working with.

Lisa: Oh, nice.

Rajesh: It’s like an agile, nimble team.

Rajesh: And we spoke about all these things, but all that knowledge, if you’re not able to experiment real fast, then it just goes to waste.

Rajesh: So the team is such that we are able to ship things one after the other.

Rajesh: Our client is able to experiment and see what really works for them.

Rajesh: So I think I’m proud of the team.

Lisa: I love that answer.

Suky: I would echo the team and I would add probably the passion.

Suky: Because I think I’ve worked in other companies and it was very much transactional.

Suky: How much can we get from the client today?

Suky: How much can we get from the client tomorrow?

Suky: And I think our relationship with the client and the passion that our people show, whether in India, whether in Pakistan or UK, I think it’s that passion that really, really matters to me.

Suky: Because I think that’s what gives me the reason to come to work.

Suky: And I think that’s what drives me is the passion.

Suky: And I think that’s probably the biggest thing I’m proud of.

Lisa: Amazing.

Lisa: Well, congratulations.

Lisa: Sounds like you’re doing an amazing job.

Lisa: And on that final passion point, how can people get in touch with you if they want to reach out to you?

Suky: So our website, which is really bad.

Lisa: Oh no, you can’t say that.

Suky: So our website, we got our contact details on there.

Suky: So that’s the best way to get hold of us.

Suky: Other than that, give us a call.

Lisa: And we’ll put your details, both your details on, your LinkedIn profiles on our show notes as well.

Lisa: But thank you so much.

Lisa: Like I said, really interesting conversation.

Lisa: I’m looking forward to chat further with you both.

Lisa: But thank you for coming on Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

Lisa: It was a pleasure to have you both.

Suky: Thank you for having us.

Suky: Thank you, Lisa.

Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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