#634: Mastering Loyalty Commerce: Insights from Valuedynamx

PAULA: Hello and Happy New Year from everyone in Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

PAULA: It’s Paula Thomas here, and before you enjoy this episode, I just want to take a minute of your time to invite you to a very exciting webinar I’m hosting on Wednesday, January 22nd, this year 2025.

PAULA: This will be a really exciting event where we’ll be introducing our new partnership with Ajo.

PAULA: Ajo is a unique platform that allows you to leverage the power of the world’s best games to engage your members every single day, and allow them the opportunity to earn your loyalty currency just for playing.

PAULA: At the same time, you’ll earn direct bottom line revenue for every one of your members that plays a game.

PAULA: To join the webinar featuring Ajo and one of their delighted clients, Fetch Rewards, simply head over to the Let’s Talk Loyalty page on LinkedIn, and sign up there for the event.

PAULA: You’ll also find a direct link to the event in the show notes of this episode.

PAULA: And of course, even if you can’t attend the webinar live, we’ll share the recording with everyone afterwards.

PAULA: Now, please do enjoy this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

PAULA: Today’s episode is hosted by Charlie Hills, Chief Strategy Officer of MandoConnect, a UK-based agency that uses smart data to create brilliant partnerships and rewards that really work.

PAULA: Enjoy.

CHARLIE: Hello, and welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

CHARLIE: As Paula mentioned, I’m Charlie Hills, the Chief Strategy Officer for MandoConnect.

CHARLIE: In this episode, I’m delighted to interview MB Bell, a Senior Advisor at Valuedynamx, focused on driving growth in the US market.

CHARLIE: With nearly 25 years of experience in the pay for performance space, MB has developed a deep expertise and passion for all things loyalty commerce.

CHARLIE: Over the years, she’s tackled roles across both affiliate and publisher networks, managing loyalty publishers at B3 and shaping merchandising and advertising strategies at SchoolPop and YouPromise.

CHARLIE: Before joining Valuedynamx, MB served as VP of partnerships at Cartera, collaborating with major clients like American Airlines, United Airlines and Chase, spearheading business development, compliance and vendor management initiatives.

CHARLIE: MB is also a true rewards enthusiast, racking up over 500,000 rewards points, miles and cash back over the past two decades just by shopping.

CHARLIE: Today, we’ll be learning about her favorite book and loyalty programs, highlights and key learnings from the program she’s worked on, and of course, all about Valuedynamx.

CHARLIE: I really hope you enjoy our conversation today.

CHARLIE: Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

CHARLIE: I’m absolutely delighted to have you on Let’s Talk Loyalty today.

CHARLIE: It’s going to be such a great episode.

CHARLIE: Welcome to the show.

MB: Charlie, thank you so much for having me.

MB: I’m so excited to talk about all things loyalty and really anything else, and privileged to be the first episode of 2025 and in video.

MB: So, it’s all good.

CHARLIE: Lots of lipstick and fancy hair around for us all.

CHARLIE: I’m hoping all the people who normally listen are now enjoying watching as well.

CHARLIE: This is what I look like after all these years.

CHARLIE: And this is MB.

CHARLIE: We’re delighted to have you here with us today.

CHARLIE: As well as the new video form, actually, we’ve got a new opening question that Paula has put together for the 2025 shows, which is a great one actually, and one I’m really interested to hear your thoughts on.

CHARLIE: So, without further ado, what is your favorite book about life or leadership or loyalty?

MB: First off, I absolutely agree with you.

MB: I think this is a lovely question to have in a work environment, in a personal environment.

MB: It just is such a good icebreaker.

MB: So, I have two, right?

MB: My favorite, and it was hard to pick, but my favorite life book is actually The Alchemist, and that message that it’s about the journey, not the destination, right?

MB: And it’s a very short book.

MB: It’s one, it’s a lesson I try to remind myself very often, but it’s also a book I try to reread maybe every few years, just to, you know, another sign I have in my house is never get so busy making a living, you forget to make a life, right?

CHARLIE: Just that kind of-

CHARLIE: Oh, that’s lovely.

MB: Yes, yes.

CHARLIE: It’s a great choice.

MB: It gets me a little verklempt, actually, thinking about it.

MB: And my favorite loyalty book, workbook, loyalty book, whatever you want to call it, is The Loyalty Effect, that Fred Reichelt put out in 1996, I believe.

MB: And I came across it in 1999, when I first was introduced to the Pay for Performance marketing space and the Loyalty space.

MB: I was working for a startup that, like many companies in 1999, did not make it to the end of 2000.

MB: But no, I was not, I was not at all.

MB: And the premise that we had, which I think still rings true, is that the idea being that if you were a customer of a company and also owned part of that company, you were that much more loyal, right?

MB: And his, the theory that he had of loyalty economics, I think 30 years later, absolutely still rings true, if not more so.

MB: Just in terms of by focusing on the customer and doing right by them, companies, whether they’re loyalty, companies with loyalty programs or retailers, their profits will grow, but you have to put the customer first and make sure that you’re delivering an experience consistently that surprises and delights them.

CHARLIE: Yeah.

CHARLIE: And I think you’re absolutely right.

CHARLIE: That principle holds so true now.

CHARLIE: It’s almost like it was written this week, isn’t it?

CHARLIE: It’s a fascinating book and one I highly recommend.

CHARLIE: And I think as we go through all the episodes this year, we’re going to be creating a brilliant library of books for life and books for loyalty and books for leadership.

CHARLIE: And I think we’re going to have a recommendation list.

CHARLIE: I’m sure you won’t be our only guest who chooses that one.

CHARLIE: It’s one of the kind of iconic reads, isn’t it?

CHARLIE: I’m sitting here in my office and I’ve got my bookcase.

CHARLIE: I’m like, actually, I haven’t got that one on my bookcase.

CHARLIE: I’m quite old school.

CHARLIE: I love a kind of a solid, hardback book.

CHARLIE: I’ve got some brilliant ones up there.

CHARLIE: Look, I’ve got Scoring Points, Evolutionary Ideas, Knowledge is Beautiful, and a whole bunch of stuff on Infographics.

CHARLIE: But yeah, I must add the loyalty effect in, actually.

CHARLIE: I think that’s a great, great recommendation.

CHARLIE: I’m also really interested always to hear about what our guests think about loyalty programs, as well as kind of loyalty literature.

CHARLIE: And I know you’ve got a wealth of experience in this area.

CHARLIE: I know there are loads of programs that you love personally and professionally.

CHARLIE: And whilst it was a question we asked all our guests last year, I know it’s one of the most popular questions.

CHARLIE: So my next question for you, MB, is about what are your favorite loyalty programs and why?

MB: It’s a great question.

MB: And having watched and listened to many of your episodes, I’ve always been very impressed with the answers.

MB: And for whatever reason, I actually struggled with the answer to this question, because to me, loyalty is based on a connection with a brand.

MB: And any rewards, whether you’re earning them or redeeming rewards for something, are to me an addition that enhances that connection.

MB: And it’s not a single connection, right?

MB: Because at any one time, as consumers, at any one time, we have different needs, right?

MB: Short-term needs, immediate needs, and my loyalty might be informed by that.

MB: So, for example, I just redeemed points on JetBlue to go to Puerto Rico, which I’m very much looking forward to.

MB: But what that means is my behavior now in terms of my spending is going to go to then using the JetBlue co-branded credit card, right?

MB: And doing my online shopping through True Blue Shopping because I want to build that balance up again, right?

MB: So kind of based on that destination.

MB: And coffee is another good example, right?

MB: In the US, you have Starbucks, you have Peach, you have Dunkin Donuts, everyone has an app.

MB: I may be very loyal to Dunkin because I’m in New England, but if I’m not near a Dunkin Donuts, I will go to a Starbucks.

MB: I will certainly take advantage of each of their loyalty programs, but again, based on kind of that short or long-term immediate need.

MB: So I think I would say, and again, thinking this through, I’m actually loyal to loyalty, if that makes any sense, right?

MB: Just that whole idea of how do you make that connection, right?

MB: As a marketer, how do you make that connection to the consumer?

MB: How do you build that relationship?

MB: And how do you make sure that whatever experience you’re sharing with them, right, is something that they enjoy and that they want to repeat?

CHARLIE: Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting concept, actually, for those of us that are such loyalty nerds.

CHARLIE: You know, we operate, we work in this industry, we check out so many different programs all the time.

CHARLIE: Actually, to that answer, I’m actually, I’m quite loyal to loyalty as well.

CHARLIE: I am always the person telling my friend, you know, in Great Britain, to use your coffee example, we’ve got Gales, we’ve got Cafe Nero, we’ve got Starbucks, we’ve got Costa Coffee, we’ve got some really brilliant programs out there.

CHARLIE: And I’m always the one going, oh yeah, make sure you join it.

CHARLIE: Gales are doing a brilliant reward at the moment, or Cafe Nero are doing their brilliant Christmas cracker promotion at the moment.

CHARLIE: Make sure you, you know, join up and sign in and make the most of it.

CHARLIE: And I think that’s a really lovely concept for all of us and a nice kind of breadth and a demonstration of how you actually change and adapt your behaviors.

CHARLIE: I think you’re maybe loyal to loyalty, but also quite savvy to loyalty as well.

CHARLIE: I think from the amount of points and miles you’ve connected, you obviously know how to really work that system and then get to Puerto Rico on miles.

CHARLIE: That sounds absolutely fabulous.

MB: Well, there are many jobs, and I’ve said this to people across the years in my experience, where you actually get paid to shop online because you’re, you know, again, working in the loyalty commerce space, you’re always QA-ing, making sure that things are working.

MB: So yes, and I think rewards when you’re shopping help offset the guilt of perhaps shopping too much.

MB: Yes, but I know this is not a therapy session, Dr.

MB: Hills.

MB: So, yes.

CHARLIE: I know.

CHARLIE: Well, one of my favorite, favorite programs is Boots Advantage Card that has that premise beautifully.

CHARLIE: You know, the point is it is all positioned as treats for yourself, you know, buy all the sensible stuff you need and then really engage in the loyalty program to love life and treat yourself and get the latest makeup, get the latest lipstick.

CHARLIE: I think it’s a really lovely premise.

CHARLIE: And I think it is how a lot of people sat in a lot of research, how they engage with loyalty programs.

CHARLIE: They use them sensibly, they shop sensibly, but then they use the treats and the rewards to kind of have fun and do the things that they couldn’t otherwise afford.

CHARLIE: That’s a great answer.

CHARLIE: I mean, you’ve worked in loyalty, you’ve worked in e-commerce for so long, you’ve got so much experience.

CHARLIE: I’m sure our listeners would really benefit from hearing a little bit more about your background, actually, and what else you enjoy about working in loyalty marketing, as well as knowing how to work the system and get to Puerto Rico.

CHARLIE: What about what do you love about our industry?

CHARLIE: What do you love about working here?

CHARLIE: And how did you end up in the role that you’re in?

MB: Well, I’ll unpack those questions.

MB: So when you look back on your career and you actually do the math, it is amazing.

MB: And I know further in the conversation, we’re going to talk about kind of lessons learned, right?

MB: And if I do the math, I have been working professionally since 1989.

MB: So I don’t even do the math MB.

MB: What is that?

MB: 35 years, right?

MB: Which just kind of boggles my mind because I still think I’m 29.

MB: So how could I have been working for 35 if I’ve only been around for 29 years?

MB: But again, math is not my forte.

MB: But I have spent that whole professional career really in some form of strategic account management.

MB: And only in the last 25 years that I have the opportunity to get involved and pay for performance marketing.

MB: As I mentioned, that startup in 1999 really got introduced me to the loyalty space, both on a B2B and a B2B to C side of the US.

MB: And back in the early aughts, the concept of coalition loyalty programs and how could you build something that’s all encompassing, it’s still a dream today.

MB: I think it’s a little bit harder in the US given just the geography.

MB: Right?

MB: You know, across like in Germany, payback.de and you all have Nectar, right?

MB: It seems a little easier to do that, but it still fascinates me.

MB: And I think what I love about it, and again, kind of staying with pay for performance marketing, which is both on the earn and the redemption side, right?

MB: Whether it’s affiliate marketing or card linked offers as they’re evolving, it’s really a three way win, right?

MB: So it’s a win for companies because they can leverage this pay for performance model to reward and retain customers by offering them miles cash back, right?

MB: Whatever that might be.

MB: And it also offers them an additional, potential additional revenue stream, right?

MB: Again, those customers can get rewarded for doing what they do anyway, just slightly changing their behavior, right?

MB: And an opportunity to accelerate their earn on top of whatever the base earn might be, whether it’s credit card or flights or hotel stays, whatever that might be.

MB: And then it also then offers a kind of a triangle, or I think of it more of a circle, but Valuedynamx, we think of it as a triangle, is for merchants, right?

MB: So they then have a model where it’s not advertising and you can’t track your ROI.

MB: You are literally paying for performance, right?

MB: You’re paying a commission based on when somebody makes a purchase.

MB: And I know this probably sounds corny, but I can be very corny.

MB: Again, I call it the circle of love, right?

MB: Kind of everybody wins.

MB: And the goal is you want to repeat that and make every person, every part, I should say, of that value exchange feel valued, right?

MB: And want them to repeat it.

MB: So I guess that’s what I love about loyalty and loyalty commerce.

MB: I love it as a business and I love it as a consumer.

MB: So to me, similar to you talking to your friends, right?

MB: It’s sort of like, why wouldn’t you do that?

MB: Like, oh, I belong to Prime.

MB: I’m like, uh-huh, Prime’s not a loyalty program, right?

MB: Prime is great, but it’s not a loyalty program.

MB: So anyway, probably a long answer to a short question, but how I got started, why I’m still in it, why I’m passionate about it.

MB: And I probably will continue to be, you know, when I’m no longer working, but probably still shopping.

CHARLIE: I think that’s a lovely answer, actually, thinking about that win, win, win, and how actually you add value to everyone.

CHARLIE: I think what I really enjoy and reflect back on that is also the complexity and the challenge of that as well, and identifying where those mutually beneficial opportunities are.

CHARLIE: I think that’s one of the most interesting things when you’re working in our sector is, how do you make that work for everybody and unite all their objectives together to get that kind of mutually beneficial value exchange?

CHARLIE: I think that complexity is probably what keeps you fresh as well and keeps you kind of engaged in it and keeps you interested in the sector.

CHARLIE: Yeah, great answer.

CHARLIE: Although I will always debate you on prime, whether or not that is a loyalty program, because I think we could probably have a whole podcast on that.

MB: No, no, we absolutely could, right?

MB: Because it does, it kind of puts loyalty on its ear in some ways, like because people are so loyal to Amazon, in effect, you have created a loyalty program.

MB: So it’s a very good point.

MB: Yeah, that could be a series of podcasts.

CHARLIE: We could do a whole one just on that.

CHARLIE: I think the number of times we’ve debated is a subscription program, a loyalty is paid for loyalty programs, programs.

CHARLIE: But that’s a whole other topic.

CHARLIE: Today, we’re here to talk about Valuedynamx.

CHARLIE: So before Paula scolds me, I will move on to the next question.

CHARLIE: So everyone’s heard of Collinson.

CHARLIE: I think the whole industry knows Collinson inside out, but actually perhaps they might not know Valuedynamx.

CHARLIE: It’s obviously a newer business, part of the Collinson group.

CHARLIE: I’m sure our listeners would actually love to hear all about it.

CHARLIE: Obviously, all the information is available on the website, and we’ll pop all the links in the podcast notes.

CHARLIE: But could you tell our customers a little bit more about Valuedynamx and how you’re creating total customer relevance here?

CHARLIE: What sets it apart from the other solutions that exist?

MB: So Valuedynamx actually evolved from within Collinson, leveraging that rich loyalty heritage that has existed for over 30 years, and really being able to focus as a business on earning and redeeming solutions, strategy and creating that, again, total relevance between merchants, programs, right, or clients and customers.

MB: And how do you then leverage the global buying power, that Valuedynamx and its 35-plus global clients across airlines, right, financial institutions with in 20 markets, right, including Australia, UAE and the US, and over 10,000 merchants, if you will, both again offering earn and offering redemption.

MB: And not only continue to grow that global, but I was brought on as a senior advisor to focus on how do we grow that in the US, right?

MB: How do we bring that heritage, right, especially leveraging the Collinsons well-known name, creating more of a new brand name, but again, always leveraging that heritage and being able to help some of our clients, like Emirates and British Airways and Qatar, move into the US, right, to address their millions of US-based members with solutions that complement and extend what they have outside of the US.

MB: And that flip opportunity too, right, they then join Valuedynamx US clients like Acorns, JetBlue and Windham with the opportunity for our US clients, how do we help them expand internationally?

MB: How do we help them expand an earned proposition or a redemption proposition?

MB: Again, how do we make it easy for their customers to take advantage of non-core earning or redeeming opportunities?

MB: So it’s new name, same great taste, right?

MB: It’s like new Coke.

MB: So it’s exactly that.

MB: And again, it’s allowed us to focus to on development efforts, right?

MB: I mean, I will say this company is amazing at investing in the future, right?

MB: Listening to what our clients are talking about and investing in the future.

MB: And thinking about then how can we bring value to our customers based on what their needs are.

CHARLIE: Yeah, and how you can do that now, but then think ahead.

CHARLIE: I think that’s one of the things I really admire about it.

CHARLIE: It’s that constant evolution.

CHARLIE: It never really feels like you sit still.

CHARLIE: You’re always kind of looking ahead and bringing new stuff to it, be that global opportunities, US opportunities with the brands that you’re working with.

CHARLIE: So yeah, I think that really stands out to those of us that kind of watch in awe slightly at the scale of it.

CHARLIE: I think one of the other things that’s always really impressed me about it, or that I’ve heard, is that it’s the value that it brings.

CHARLIE: That actually it is a kind of metrics driven business.

CHARLIE: You can kind of look at data research and insight to kind of demonstrate that value that you bring.

CHARLIE: I mean, we’d love to hear more, I’m sure, about how you bring that value and what that looks like.

CHARLIE: I know you’ve got lots of research in this space.

CHARLIE: I’m sure our listeners would love to hear about it.

CHARLIE: Any sound bites on methodology, results, anything you can share with us today would be much appreciated.

MB: No, no, absolutely.

MB: I know when we had talked earlier, Charlie, and you can let me know if this is the right time to do it, if it makes sense to explain in a little bit more layman’s terms what we do or if that would be overkill.

MB: You let me know.

MB: No, that would be great.

MB: Please do.

MB: I was trying to think of, at the end of the day, how would you describe what you do to your mother so that she can understand it and explain it to her bridge group?

MB: Still struggled with that for years.

MB: But thinking about it and taking a few steps back, if we’re focusing on the way that loyalty members can earn, so we’ll focus on earn and we’ll go to redemption.

MB: And again, that same pay for performance model, it’s very simple.

MB: A merchant, let’s say Macy’s, will say, you know what, Valuedynamx, I will pay you 10 percent of someone’s basket when you refer traffic to me, whether it’s click, which is how it’s tracked for affiliate, or whether it’s tracked via card link on the card swipe.

MB: And that commission gets paid to Valuedynamx, but we don’t keep all of it.

MB: Some publishers do, and that’s fine.

MB: But in a loyalty, what makes loyalty so great is, you’re sharing, ideally, the bulk of that commission back to the member, consumer, who made that purchase in the form of the loyalty currency, right, for the program from which they came, or from where they wanted to make that reward.

MB: Very, very simple.

MB: It’s very simple, actually.

MB: It isn’t rocket science.

MB: It is truly that pay-for-performance model.

MB: And the two channels, as I mentioned, are affiliate, which is clicklink or cardlinked.

MB: Consumers may be agnostic, they may not be, but for merchants, those are two different levers, right, and two different channels.

MB: So back to that kind of consulting with all the constituents, merchant, you know, Macy’s, what are you looking to achieve, right?

MB: How do you, based on seasonality, whatever it might be, right, how are you looking, what kind of customers are you looking to get, and how do you want to drive value, and how can we help you with that?

MB: And the redemption side, right, is basically those consumers can earn the loyalty currency, can use the loyalty currency that they’ve built up, right, either for core inventory, like airlines or hotels, or for experiences, you know, products like Apple products or digital gift cards, whatever that might be.

MB: And you mentioned our research, Charlie, which was great, you know, kind of thinking about that value exchange.

MB: We recently commissioned a study about redemption and found, which isn’t surprising, right, it’s not gonna be surprising to you, to any of our listeners, but when you hear, or watchers, when you hear this, it’s always a reminder that actually redemption, right, burning drives earning.

MB: And back to that relevance, right, that total relevance connection, or again, what I call it, that circle of love.

MB: So the more redemption options and the better options you have, core inventory and non-core inventory, right, then creates that desire and demand for that consumer to go earn more currency, right, to keep doing it, to build on that.

MB: So I’m just looking at my notes to pull up just some statistics we found in the research, and I know you’re gonna make the report available via link, which will be great.

CHARLIE: So that research MB sounds absolutely fascinating, and I’m obviously, I’m a complete research nerd, so I always want to see examples of them.

CHARLIE: When research translated into action and into sort of an improvement to a real world program, were there any, I’m sure there were loads, but is there an example that stands out from that research where you actually then translated that into action for a program?

MB: Absolutely, absolutely.

MB: And it was bridging that there was a research study done a few years ago, and then this most recent one, so kind of bridging that and identifying gaps, right, that existed because of an inability to have sort of a seamless rewarding, if you will, right.

MB: And again, not anyone’s inability more, or just, you know, you continue to evolve and get better.

MB: So from that, Valuedynamx actually created a redemption option for Emirates.

MB: So we provide an experience both earning and now redeeming across five markets, including the US., where Skyward’s members can instantly exchange their miles for digital gift cards that can be used right away to shop online or in-store.

MB: It just stores in a digital wallet.

MB: And very nice, right.

MB: And so we were able to add that experience back to Seamless into the Valuedynamx hosted Skyward’s shopping experience.

MB: So again, that option to earn via click, earn via card linked, or redeem for digital gift cards across top brands, bringing that all together to make it faster and easier.

MB: And again, it goes back to that virtual circle or that three-way value exchange that we talk about, which is how can you bring this option for the digital gift card merchant?

MB: Great.

MB: A program, you’ve got excess inventory, you really want to burn it.

MB: Burning drives earning, right.

MB: And then the most important leg on that three-legged stool is for the Skyward’s member, right.

MB: Making it easy, making it, giving it perceived value, and then actually receiving that value that you perceived.

MB: And then creating it, you know, going to do it all again, and that again, virtuous circle.

CHARLIE: It’s really interesting piece of research, actually.

CHARLIE: And it links back to your JetBlue example that you opened up the episode talking about, you know, by burning those points and booking your holiday to Puerto Rico, and then made you spend more on your credit card so you could earn more points to get your balance back up.

CHARLIE: I think all of us that work in the industry really admire that virtuous circle.

CHARLIE: I think one of the other things I love is that actionable insight as well, because now they know you want to go to Puerto Rico and they know you like to travel.

CHARLIE: They can actually use that insight to offer you more of the kinds of rewards that you love and that will engage you even more and then make that virtuous circle work faster.

CHARLIE: So what are some of the highlights from your notes and that research?

CHARLIE: What sort of things are popping out at you?

MB: Do you think Chep Blue will be listening and send me a pass to Puerto Rico next year?

MB: At least a free drink ticket would be lovely, but I think drinks are free on Chep Blue anyway.

MB: But yes, some of the insight that we found that, and not surprising, 83 percent of loyalty members have redeemed currency for rewards at least once in the past three months.

MB: Of the people we surveyed, 50 percent of those have actually done it within a month.

MB: So a lot of times you think about, I’m just building up for a flight, it’s going to take years.

MB: No, the currency is a lot more fluid than, especially within supermarkets, which again, isn’t surprising.

MB: But airlines and hotels are a close second.

MB: A lot more fluid and, what’s the word I want?

MB: Not fluid, but, I guess maybe fluid, a lot more fluid than we would think, right?

MB: Or maybe valuable is the right word.

MB: So airline and hotel programs are really the best example of the power of a burning rate is driving the earning rate.

MB: Again, just what you said, right?

MB: As a consumer, back to loyalty, right?

MB: I preach what I live, I suppose, for lack of a better way to put it, that it absolutely makes sense.

MB: And so we found, digging into the airline program data, that an airline program member burns currency just once per year.

MB: Again, that’s probably me, right?

MB: But you’re building it up.

MB: But I’m like, they, me, they, are likely to earn points on 17 separate occasions within that year, right?

MB: So it is, again, and that’s where something with a big ticket item, that ancillary earn can be so valuable, right?

MB: As a way to speed to speed that up.

MB: And so back to that, if they increase that redemption to five times a year, then not surprising, they’ll increase the frequency where they earn, right?

MB: So if you, if they burn five times a year, the earning points on 20 occasions.

MB: But to me, that’s between 17 and 20 with one redemption versus five.

MB: It just shows that hunger for that currency and keeping that, as you said, right?

MB: If you’re a good loyalty marketer, you want to keep that person loyal to the extent that you can by making sure that process of redemption is as smooth as possible.

MB: In addition, obviously, to the earning, right?

MB: You want to make it very simple, but that redemption process needs to be, and ideally can be personalized based on what we know can be relevant, right?

MB: Don’t show me a chance to redeem to Las Vegas if I’ve never flown to Las Vegas.

MB: Nothing against Vegas, but never flown there.

MB: So I think it goes back to what Valuedynamx can add is pulling those things together, those levers to make sure when we’re partnering with our client programs that we can give you the solutions, but it’s also the strategy.

MB: And Charlie, you know this better than I do because that’s what you do, right?

MB: And it’s building that and understanding specifically why it always is a different conversation.

MB: What are you looking to achieve this year?

MB: What are the challenges?

MB: Where are we losing people?

MB: What are our loyalists doing?

MB: How do we identify more future loyalists?

MB: How do we take that behavior from a loyalist and see if we can apply it?

MB: What made them loyal in the first place?

MB: How do we get the non-loyals to get to loyal?

CHARLIE: Yeah, I think that actionable insight and actually translating data into insight into action and then learning and then optimizing it is such an important thing.

CHARLIE: And lots of people and lots of companies miss out one of those two steps.

CHARLIE: They’ll know a lot or they’ll test a lot, but actually creating that virtuous circle as well as consumer behavior, but in your own organization behavior is so key as well.

CHARLIE: I think people underestimate the importance of that strategy phase and actually kind of getting that approach right.

CHARLIE: That’s really interesting.

CHARLIE: And we will, as I’ve said, we’ll put the link to that report in the show notes so that everyone can look at it.

CHARLIE: And if you have any further questions for MB and the team, don’t hesitate to get in touch.

CHARLIE: We could get in, we could record a whole podcast just on the research, but we won’t.

CHARLIE: Don’t panic.

CHARLIE: We’ll do that as a follow up.

CHARLIE: So my next question is really kind of taking a step back actually out of the Valuedynamx world and thinking about this industry.

CHARLIE: As you’ve said, you’ve worked at Loyalty for a very long time, obviously only a couple of years, a very long time and you’ve got a wealth of experience across lots of different brands but always in this kind of specialist sector.

CHARLIE: I mean, how have you seen the industry change and what trends are you currently seeing that really stand out to you at the moment?

MB: I will say these questions have made me think in a way I haven’t thought in a while, so I appreciate that.

MB: Again, back to, I wouldn’t say a therapy session, but just the opportunity to be able to reflect, especially as a woman.

MB: Over the past 25 years, it’s been so powerful and inspiring to me to see the growth of women leading, not just in loyalty, right?

MB: And you and Paula are great examples of that, but also across finance and airlines.

MB: You’ve got Jane Frazier at Citi, right?

MB: You have Joanna Garrity at JetBlue.

MB: I mean, 25 years ago, that just wasn’t…

MB: Women didn’t even have that many seats at the table, let alone being able to sit at the head of the table.

MB: And that mirroring that also is, and again, thinking back, is hearing not just male voices, right?

MB: But male and female voices, and almost equally in conversations, which again, is very different to me anyway, right?

MB: And I started out in finance, so right there, it’s a very different world to begin with, but we actually weren’t allowed to wear pants to work.

MB: Imagine that.

CHARLIE: You do realize how funny that is as well, as a Brit, I’m like, no pants to work.

CHARLIE: I realize we can’t wear trousers.

MB: You could edit that somewhere.

MB: Yep, somewhere the audio peers going, nope, zip pants.

MB: We are not editing that.

CHARLIE: That’s golden.

CHARLIE: I remember the same.

CHARLIE: I mean, I’ve got a mathematical economics degree, and I was the only sort of girl in my unit at university.

CHARLIE: And I really admire that actually.

CHARLIE: And I really noticed it at the conferences that we both attend actually.

CHARLIE: You know, there is a real change in the industry to try to make that 50-50.

CHARLIE: And I think that makes us all the better for it.

CHARLIE: You know, I think we’ve still got a lot more to do on diversity and inclusion, but it’s a huge shift.

CHARLIE: And I think it’s for the betterment of everyone.

MB: No, I absolutely do.

MB: And I think, you know, if you’re, I have a niece who’s graduating from college this year, and she is an econ major, as was I.

MB: I did it because there were lots of boys in the class.

MB: And I thought, oh, this would be great.

MB: And I’d probably get a job because there weren’t many female economics majors.

MB: So the boy thing didn’t work out so well, but the job thing did.

MB: So there we go.

MB: Fabulous.

MB: But just thinking about, you know, if I were to give some advice, right, to the 22-year-old me or anyone coming out of college, just thinking about what you were saying, that the voices are so much more, they’re not nearly where we want them to be, right, on any sort of diversity and conclusion scale, but they are so much better than they were 25 years ago, is just to think about how do you, not just find your voice, right, which is hard, still hard for me after all these years, but also to use it, right, because using your voice, and if you want this, right, will not only help you get a seat at the table, but it’ll help you create that network of people that you couldn’t, you wouldn’t be you without them, right?

MB: You’ve got your network of friends, but then I have this amazing professional network built over so many years when I think about loyalty, right?

MB: And it all began usually with a common interest, loyalty at a conference, right?

MB: Whatever it might be, but usually started with conversations like, what’s your favorite book?

MB: Yeah.

MB: Or, you know, what do you, you know, so kind of building those relationships that don’t just buoy you personally, but also professionally, right?

MB: But it also makes it that much more fun.

CHARLIE: Yeah.

MB: So, you can, and that’s another, that would be, you know, again, a lesson.

MB: You actually can have fun, and you should.

MB: And if you’re not, you know, you might not be in the right place.

CHARLIE: Yeah.

CHARLIE: No, I think that’s a great top tip, actually, to everyone coming through the industry now.

CHARLIE: And, you know, with that resurgence of face-to-face events and face-to-face conferences as well, that’s so much easier than, you know, when we’re all trapped in our houses on big webinars.

CHARLIE: It’s much harder to meet people in those environments.

CHARLIE: So, yeah, I completely agree.

CHARLIE: Take the inspiration from formats like this and the wonderful Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, but also get out there and get to meet people on that personal and professional level.

CHARLIE: I think that’s a really lovely trend that we’re seeing come back.

CHARLIE: It’s certainly something in my day job at Mando that we try and do a lot with the team actually and get them out there.

CHARLIE: One of my favorite things I always ask my team to do actually is training courses and for us to look at, you know, what training opportunities are out there.

CHARLIE: And in all honesty, I think it’s as much for the training and the insight and the information you get as the opportunity to talk to other loyalty professionals and learn from their experience.

CHARLIE: What about some of the big challenges that you think programs are facing now?

CHARLIE: Because again, that’s the flip side, isn’t it?

CHARLIE: There’s been a lot of positive stuff, a lot of great movement, but this is a really tough time to be in our industry.

CHARLIE: You know, we’ve got budgets being cut, we’ve got all sorts of things happening at the moment.

CHARLIE: So what do you think are some of the big challenges that programs are facing now?

CHARLIE: And then I suppose the natural extra question to that is, you know, and how does Valuedynamx help them address those challenges?

MB: Mm-hmm, I do.

MB: So it is, I think one of the biggest challenges programs face, we see it with our clients and you probably see it with yours, right?

MB: You just see it out there, again, as a consumer, is creating relevance and perceived value, right?

MB: There are so many, and it’s not a bad thing, right?

MB: Loyalty is lovely, but just about everyone has a loyalty program, right?

MB: I mean, including, which is great, right?

MB: I’m a big supporter of independent bookstores.

MB: I get a little card punch, literally card with a punch, right?

MB: When I go and buy a book.

MB: And so, you know, they have a loyalty program, which is lovely.

MB: And so I think, how do you then, as a consumer, you have so many options, right?

MB: And so many options across really every interaction in your life, right?

MB: Every bank with a credit card, they want you, right?

MB: And we’ll give you these offers, and it’ll be rich and relevant, and it’ll be amazing, right?

MB: Hotels, retail, et cetera.

MB: It’s a promise that’s put out there, and understandably, all good intentions, but oftentimes doesn’t deliver, right?

MB: So back to that, back to our research, and again, just what we know as loyalty marketers, if you disappoint a consumer, let alone take them off, but if you disappoint a consumer, they’re really hard to get back, right?

MB: It’s hard to get members in.

MB: It’s almost impossible to get them back if it’s been a bad experience, or their expectations haven’t been met.

MB: Yeah.

MB: So at Valuedynamx, right, with our solutions, but as importantly, with our strategy conversations, right, that partnership we build with our clients and our merchants, it’s really understanding how can we, how can we add value to your overall loyalty program with the components that we can bring?

MB: How can we bring in some surprise and delight moments, right, again, with our solutions, whether it’s earning or redemption, that are not just perceived as high value, but felt that way, right?

MB: So there’s the perception of high value, but then I actually feel I’ve received high value.

MB: And how can I do that, right?

MB: Whether it’s personalization, whether it’s understanding, leveraging a little bit of AI, I think AI is one of those conversations could go either way, because again, it’s like, oh, these are personalized offers for you.

MB: That’s wonderful.

MB: I have never shopped at Manscaped, which is lovely, I believe, for, I think they’re men’s products.

MB: I should have looked it up before I used that name.

MB: Please do not target, and my name is MB, stands for Mary Beth.

MB: What part of this is shopping at Manscaped?

MB: But yet these are curated just for me.

MB: It’s like, well, they’re not, so sorry.

MB: So I think it’s just, again, being able to offer solutions within our clients, existing loyalty programs, within our merchants, you know, strategy and in marketing budgets, as your point before, right?

MB: Budgets are tight.

MB: How can you do something that is personalized relevant that actually delivers to that?

MB: I like virtuous circle.

MB: It sounds better than circle of love.

MB: So I may steal that from you, Charlie.

MB: That virtuous circle that then just keeps the customers wanting to come back and choose, right?

MB: Maybe you would, maybe I would cross the street and walk around a corner to go to Duncan because it was a better experience than Starbucks, right?

MB: Or two blocks away or something like that.

MB: So I think it goes back to, again, you’ve got the solutions that can help drive engagement, but at the end of the day, it’s really partnering with your clients and merchants to understand specifically, what are their goals?

MB: How do they want to do it?

MB: How do we fit in and compliment?

MB: And I think that’s what Valuedynamx does very well.

CHARLIE: That’s a lovely answer.

CHARLIE: And again, that’s another virtuous circle, isn’t it?

CHARLIE: Because then you’ve got happy clients, this program then starts to do well, they can then invest more, then they can give better rewards and offers back to their audience, which then works very well for the partner.

CHARLIE: Yeah, that’s a really, really nice model and a really important lesson, I think, for everyone to learn about how you create value across that circle.

CHARLIE: Are there any other big lessons?

CHARLIE: I feel like we’ve talked quite a lot.

CHARLIE: As you say, it’s a bit of a therapy chair, isn’t it?

CHARLIE: We’ve talked a lot about loyalty.

CHARLIE: We’ve also talked a lot about life and I think how the whole industry is changing.

CHARLIE: But are there any other big lessons you think that you’ve learnt so far on your journey?

MB: Well, I think the number one lesson I’ve learned is never burn a bridge.

MB: Because you never, as someone who, and maybe in my introduction, who spent over 13 years at Carterra, it was an absolutely lovely experience, miss those people on a daily basis, I have the opportunity to be part of Valuedynamx because I met James Berry and Colin Evans at a conference.

MB: Well, keeping them away from my client, of course.

MB: Get away, which I literally did.

MB: Please do not talk to the British people.

MB: Nothing against you guys.

MB: I just was protecting my client.

MB: And but just those, even if it just seems like a one-off conversation or interaction, you just never know where that person, that company, that opportunity could pop up again 12 years later.

MB: So I think that would just be, and I think never burn a bridge, actually, not to get too deep, is the same thing for marketers, right?

MB: Whether you’re a merchant or a client program or whoever, don’t burn that bridge, because once you do, it’s going to be really hard to get that person back or to get that experience back.

CHARLIE: Yeah, I think that’s a great lesson, actually.

CHARLIE: And as obviously somebody who works in the partnership space, I’d probably go one further.

CHARLIE: I go, don’t burn the bridge and try and keep those bridges alive and keep that network alive and keep those connections coming to the fore.

CHARLIE: The whole reason I ended up working with Paula on Let’s Talk Loyalty and now Loyalty TV was because we were both standing in a queue at a Loyalty conference together chatting, wait for the speaker.

CHARLIE: Paula was just setting up Let’s Talk Loyalty as a podcast.

CHARLIE: And she really wanted to speak to the brand in question as a potential guest.

CHARLIE: And I really wanted to speak to the brand in question because I had a lifetime ambition to do partnerships for them.

CHARLIE: And we were chatting about that in the queue.

CHARLIE: And then here we are a few days later, a few years later, rather on Loyalty TV.

CHARLIE: Feels like it’s probably…

CHARLIE: There was a bridge I didn’t burn.

CHARLIE: I could have elbowed her out the way and made myself a cut to the front, but I didn’t.

CHARLIE: So yeah, not only didn’t burn it, I kind of built it over time.

CHARLIE: I think that’s a lovely lesson in work and in life as well.

CHARLIE: Well, look, thank you so much.

CHARLIE: This has been a really interesting episode.

CHARLIE: I really encourage our listeners and watchers, check out the links, check out the research, check out the kind of proposition.

CHARLIE: It’s a really interesting one.

CHARLIE: It will make you think differently about rewards and benefits for your program.

CHARLIE: Having said that, I’m sure we haven’t covered everything.

CHARLIE: There are so many topics we could cover today.

CHARLIE: If our listeners have got questions for you, MB, what’s the best way for them to reach out to you?

MB: Oh, absolutely.

MB: We’d love that through LinkedIn.

MB: So, MB Bell on LinkedIn.

MB: Yep, no, we’d love to, again, back to loyalty.

MB: It’s the connections that you make.

MB: And I so appreciate, Charlie, thank you so much for the opportunity to be on this episode.

MB: Thanks to you and Paula for making this easy.

MB: Again, like the therapy chair, as you said, this was my first time doing this.

MB: So you made it very, very easy and very comfortable.

MB: So thank you.

CHARLIE: Thank you so much.

CHARLIE: Oh, you are so welcome.

CHARLIE: It’s a great proposition.

CHARLIE: You’ve been a brilliant guest.

CHARLIE: And hopefully this has been a really useful episode for everyone.

CHARLIE: I’ve loved it.

CHARLIE: And we’ve done our first one on video.

CHARLIE: So I’m really excited to tick that milestone off as well.

CHARLIE: So thank you everyone for bearing with me.

CHARLIE: Next time you see me on the next episode, I’ll learn and I’ll be even better.

CHARLIE: This is my first one in the chair.

CHARLIE: So thank you MB.

CHARLIE: You’ve been an awesome guest.

CHARLIE: And all that’s left for me to do is to say thank you and goodbye from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

PAULA: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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