Nedbank Greenbacks delights its clients through bank-wide loyalty (#705)

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Amanda: Tell us about Greenback.

Amanda: What is Greenbacks?

Amanda: What does it offer?

Amanda: How does it sit versus retail banking?

Dharmesh: Perfect.

Dharmesh: Amanda, thank you very much.

Dharmesh: So in fact, today at the office is our 20th Greenbacks birthday celebration.

Dharmesh: Greenbacks is very much our rewards programme and it’s the first time in the bank’s history that the programme really does reward for the full banking behaviour of our clients.

Amanda: Talk us through the recent relaunch.

Amanda: Why did you need to relaunch and what’s been the impact of the relaunch?

Dharmesh: It started in 2005 very much just as a card product and a skewed towards American Express and customers essentially got double points.

Dharmesh: Then we go to 2015 and we realise if we look around the market and we look at some of the competition and what the other programmes are giving people in the market, well, you know, relative to everyone else, you know, as greenbacks we’re not really giving back as much as potentially some of the others are.

Dharmesh: That sort of was the start of how do we actually now relook what greenbacks should be and what it could be with the necessary technology, et cetera, to actually then launch a programme that’s competitive in the market.

Dharmesh: We’ve seen engagement go up 25% since launch of the new programme in terms of people now engaging in earning points.

Dharmesh: We’ve seen a concomitant sort of change in redemptions.

Dharmesh: That’s up at about 25 to 30% in redemptions.

Dharmesh: And then of course, we’ve also seen a very fabulous data point is actually we’ve seen people increasing their savings balance.

Dharmesh: So as a bank, that’s one of the most beautiful things that we can ever hope for.

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is hosted by Amanda Cromhout, the founder of Truth and International Loyalty Consultancy.

Paula: She’s also the author of the book Blind Loyalty, 101 Loyalty Concepts Radically Simplified.

SPEAKER_4: Enjoy.

Amanda: Hi, I’m Amanda Cromhout, the CEO and founder of Truth and author of Blind Loyalty.

Amanda: Today, I have the absolute pleasure of talking with Dharmesh Bhana, who is a personal friend in the loyalty industry.

Amanda: Dharmesh heads up the Greenbacks program, which is the retail banking rewards program for Nedbank.

Amanda: Nedbank has over 7 million retail clients, and currently is celebrating its 20th anniversary of the Greenbacks program.

Amanda: The Greenbacks program celebrates full banking behavior, and Dharmesh talks through how senior leadership create that change management in order to get the buy-in for the full banking proposition that Greenbacks offers its customers.

Amanda: They relaunched last year, and since the relaunch, they’ve seen over a 20% increase in engagement from their members, between a 25% and 30% increase in redemptions and phenomenal growth in membership stats.

Amanda: I hope you enjoy this masterclass in retail banking, bank-wide rewards program.

Amanda: So today’s Let’s Talk Loyalty, Loyalty TV show is with Dharmesh Bhana, and he has been on the Let’s Talk Loyalty show before.

Amanda: And for that reason, we welcome him back with open arms.

Amanda: He’s the executive of Loyalty & Rewards at Nedbank, which is a very established retail banking and corporate banking organization in South Africa, worthy of talking again on Let’s Talk Loyalty, Loyalty TV.

Amanda: So Dharmesh, welcome back.

Dharmesh: Hi, Amanda, and hello to all the viewers and all the listeners.

Dharmesh: And just a big thank you for having me on your show.

Dharmesh: It’s always just such a privilege to be here.

Dharmesh: Thank you.

Amanda: That’s amazing.

Amanda: We see you’ve got a couple of rhino behind you just to remind us that we’re in Africa, which is just fabulous, which is exactly where we want to be.

Amanda: So first question on Loyalty TV is, what’s your favorite book?

Dharmesh: Well, my favorite book is not a loyalty book, but it is actually a children’s book, which I absolutely love.

Dharmesh: It’s by Oscar Wilde called The Remarkable Rocket.

Dharmesh: So that’s my favorite book.

Amanda: Yeah.

Amanda: You know what, Dharmesh, nothing surprises me that it wouldn’t be the mainstream loyalty or business book, but tell us why?

Amanda: What’s so special about the book?

Dharmesh: I think it’s more about the fact that we’re always trying to be someone and show people who we are and what we can do and can’t do.

Dharmesh: It’s just such a story about we’re here, and we’ve just got to do what we’ve got to do, and we’ve just got to be good humans, and that’s okay.

Dharmesh: That’s more than enough and a life well lived, if that’s the way we live it.

Dharmesh: For me, that sort of story was just so simple and so beautiful and so timeless.

Dharmesh: That’s why it’s one of my favorites.

Amanda: And whether it’s appealing to kids or us as an older generation, that’s exactly right.

Amanda: It’s beautiful.

Amanda: Couldn’t agree with you more.

Amanda: I love it.

Amanda: Okay, so before we really share with the audience around the world the beauty of the Nedbank brand.

Amanda: It’s a brand that every South African knows and Africa itself know and the rest of the world also know, but before we get into that and the Greenback story, tell us a little bit more about yourself, because you don’t come into the role you’re doing, and I’ve known you in this role for many, many years.

Amanda: We’ve had the absolute privilege of working together for years on and off in the industry, but tell us a little bit more about how you got to where you are, because I know it isn’t a traditional loyalty or marketing background.

Dharmesh: Yeah, so very briefly, I studied professionally as a chartered accountant.

Dharmesh: It’s very strange for me to be in this role.

Dharmesh: I get asked the question all the time, and many people can’t believe that I’m a chartered accountant.

Dharmesh: I don’t know if that’s a good or bad thing, but nonetheless, that was the studying background.

Dharmesh: I just always had this ambition to be in banking.

Dharmesh: I’ve always loved the banks.

Dharmesh: I’ve always found the numbers to be a fascinating aspect of banking.

Dharmesh: And so eventually, I started after Articles as a executive apprentice to a very senior retail banking executive, where I learned retail banking for another two years under his tutelage, and it was just one of the most magnificent opportunities.

Dharmesh: We then had the financial crisis, and post that, I moved on from the executive apprentice role into, and my role seemed to have been all roles that the banks sees of high strategic importance, but they believe we need to fix or make better.

Dharmesh: So really fabulous opportunities for me, where I got into the youth segment and developed propositions there, then got into the retail deposit space and developed propositions there and got the book Basel Friendly as well.

Dharmesh: And thereafter, it was then an entry into this sort of very exciting and very different industry, being the loyalty industry.

Dharmesh: So that was circa 2015, and I’ve been here for, what’s that now?

Dharmesh: About 10 years in this specific role, yeah.

Amanda: It’s quite interesting.

Amanda: You made reference to the roles you’ve gone into has been when you’ve been asked to come in and fix.

Amanda: So we’ll talk about Greenbacks in a moment, see if that was the remit you were given when you were asked to come into that role in Nedbank.

Amanda: So tell us more before we get into the loyalty story about Nedbank.

Amanda: It’s such a well, as I say, well-known brand.

Amanda: It’s been with us for so many years.

Amanda: Tell us more about it.

Amanda: So our listeners around the world can understand the prowess of the brand Nedbank.

Dharmesh: Wonderful.

Dharmesh: So you’ll see my background, which has the Nedbank building in the background there with two rhinos that have been beaded.

Dharmesh: We’re known as the Green Bank and we’re one of the big five banks in the country.

Dharmesh: Where sustainability, of course, is one of our key criteria.

Dharmesh: We really are very focused on sustainability as a bank, and always have been.

Dharmesh: In fact, I think we may have been at the vanguard of this many, many moons ago.

Dharmesh: We’ve got 7.1 million retail banking clients, 27,000 staff, very, very strong in our vehicle asset finance franchise.

Dharmesh: We’ve got 30 to 35 percent market share there, 10 percent in the transactional banking franchise, very strong focus on small, medium enterprises.

Dharmesh: We’re very good in that sector of the market as well, as well as a very strong corporate and investment bank.

Dharmesh: So really a full service bank with many, many strengths that we could talk on for many, many moons.

Dharmesh: But I think those are the big highlights of Nedbank, just a very, very proud and prestigious organization and a real privilege always for me to represent them where I can.

Dharmesh: So it’s been an absolute pleasure working here as well.

Amanda: And it’s great you made reference to, obviously, as you know, your name as the Greenbank, because the name of your program Greenback.

Amanda: So I think let’s kick in to the loyalty story because that’s what the listeners are waiting to hear.

Amanda: Tell us about Greenbacks, not necessarily the hurdles you’ve overcome or how it’s, how the challenges you’ve overcome, but more around what is Greenbacks?

Amanda: What does it offer?

Amanda: How does it sit like versus retail banking?

Dharmesh: Perfect, Amanda.

Dharmesh: Thank you very much.

Dharmesh: In fact, today at the office is our 20th Greenbacks birthday celebration.

Dharmesh: Many people don’t know that, but it was started in 2005 and here we are 20 years later, but we’ll get to that just now.

Dharmesh: I guess the question really around what is Greenbacks.

Dharmesh: Greenbacks is very much our rewards program, and it’s the first time in the bank’s history that the program really does reward for the full banking behavior of our clients.

Dharmesh: So it’s not just rewarding for swiping your card and getting a point.

Dharmesh: Part of the proposition is linked to that, but it’s most certainly rewarding for having a checking account with us or transactional account with us, rewarding for having savings with us, rewarding for using your credit card or having a card product with us, and rewarding for having the asset product, which are home loan, personal loan, vehicle asset finance and overdrafts.

Dharmesh: So that’s what we require customers to have, and there’s behaviors that we want customers to perform on each of those products on a monthly basis.

Dharmesh: And basically, depending on what customers have done, they would have achieved a goal, and the goal gives you a level in the program, and we have five levels in the program, with level five giving customers up to 2% back uncapped on our Amex card, which is really, really competitive in the South African sort of landscape.

Dharmesh: And then we’ve got other parts of the program giving members further value back, things like 10% back on Apple and Samsung devices on our AVO e-commerce shop.

Dharmesh: We’ve got 25% back per liter on fuel.

Dharmesh: There’s also our flight benefits and up to 30% back on flights on level five.

Dharmesh: And then we’ve also got 50% back on movies and the expense of Coke and popcorn at New Metro Cinemas.

Dharmesh: So we’ve really got some fabulous, fabulous value back to clients, which quite honestly, in the past, Greenbacks was a program that didn’t necessarily provide that level of value back to its clients.

Dharmesh: So in a nutshell, that’s what the program does, Amanda.

Amanda: Great, it’s amazing to hear the…

Amanda: I’ll come on to a little bit more around bank-wide loyalty, because I think that is something so unique that South Africa gets right, that I don’t see as well executed in the rest of the world.

Amanda: I say that boldly.

Amanda: I’m sure someone around the world is going to challenge me on that.

Amanda: But we’ll come on to that in a moment.

Amanda: But it is great to see, I’ve known about your proposition for many, many years, that you worked with the team years ago to see how it’s evolved and it really has evolved.

Amanda: You mentioned there Dharmesh AVO, your e-commerce platform.

Amanda: Before we start going a little bit deeper into Greenbacks, help position what AVO is.

Amanda: It’s a lovely name, it’s a unique name, it’s a catchy name.

Amanda: Let’s understand what AVO is in relation to Greenbacks.

Dharmesh: Well, very simply put, AVO is the Amazon for Nedbank, in essence.

Dharmesh: That’s basically what the shop is, and it’s called AVO SuperShop.

Dharmesh: It provides clients and in fact others, not only limited to clients, other people can come onto the platform and buy anything that they’re looking for essentially.

Dharmesh: Part of the AVO e-commerce proposition is in fact the Greenbacks Mall.

Dharmesh: Our clients would then log onto AVO, be directed to a specific page, if you want to call it that, within the AVO SuperShop, and everything Greenbacks oriented is discounted even further.

Dharmesh: If you were buying a Smey kettle, it’s now a lot cheaper for you, as opposed to a person that’s not on Greenbacks.

Dharmesh: Then as I mentioned, on the devices on Apple and Samsung products, that’s up to 10 percent back with a sort of maximum cap of 100,000 rand per year.

Dharmesh: I mean, that is significant, significant value back.

Dharmesh: I mean, I’d even go as far as saying, and I’m happy to be challenged on it, that we potentially have the best pricing in the market with that discount on those devices.

Dharmesh: So that’s pretty much the sort of Greenback side of AVO.

Dharmesh: But it’s also got a solar side to it, where we do sort of electricity as well as water.

Dharmesh: And then there’s an auto side to it as well, where there are cars that can be purchased on the AVO Super Shop.

Dharmesh: So it’s really a fabulous proposition that the bank has put together.

Amanda: Wow, I didn’t know that actually.

Amanda: I did know about solar because it granted, I mean, with the brand values that you sit on, that makes complete sense.

Amanda: I definitely didn’t know about cars.

Dharmesh: Yeah.

Amanda: Amazing.

Dharmesh: You can buy a car.

Dharmesh: You can buy a car on AVO.

Dharmesh: It’s really a fabulous, fabulous proposition.

Amanda: Great.

Amanda: Well, thank you for sharing.

Amanda: I understand how it obviously sits within the Greenbacks Mall, but I actually didn’t know the broader breadth of it for non-Greenbacks members.

Dharmesh: Okay.

Amanda: Let’s get back to the Loyalty story, because that’s what our listeners are really interested in.

Amanda: So you’ve actually been through quite a recent relaunch of Greenbacks.

Amanda: So talk us through, and thank you for sharing that it’s the 20th birthday today.

Amanda: That’s just lovely news.

Amanda: So you’ve obviously been through iterations of the program over the 20 years, but talk us through the recent relaunch.

Amanda: Why did you need to relaunch?

Amanda: And what’s been the impact of the relaunch?

Dharmesh: Perfect.

Dharmesh: Amanda, I’m going to touch on the history very quickly, if that’s okay.

Dharmesh: And it started in 2005 very much just as a card product and skewed towards American Express, and customers essentially got double points on using the American Express plastic.

Dharmesh: I mean, that was the essence of the program for many, many years.

Dharmesh: 2005 onwards, and I guess engagement on the program was limited at that point in time.

Dharmesh: So 2014, fast forward, it was the introduction of what we call the Clean Back Shop Card, which is basically an MX check card plastic, and essentially all your points are converted into cash on that plastic.

Dharmesh: So customers could then use that card to transact at merchants that accept American Express as well as stick the card into an ATM and withdraw it as cash.

Dharmesh: So suddenly, we saw engagement and redemption going up significantly because of the introduction of the shop card.

Dharmesh: Then we go to 2015 and we realize, well, that’s okay, but if we look around the market and we look at some of the competition and what the other programs are giving people in the market, well, relative to everyone else, as Greenbacks, we’re not really giving back as much as potentially some of the others are.

Dharmesh: That was the start of how do we actually now relook what Greenbacks should be and what it could be with the necessary technology, etc.

Dharmesh: To actually then launch a program that’s competitive in the market.

Dharmesh: That’s the start of where we come from.

Dharmesh: 2015, very much Dharmesh and three other people sitting there with blank canvas saying, well, what do we do here now and how do we actually compete?

Dharmesh: Part of that was creating a strategy without too much budget.

Dharmesh: We didn’t have lots of budget.

Dharmesh: We went with a behaviorally led strategy at that point in time, using mechanisms that didn’t require as much of an investment from the bank, but potentially could have quite a big impact in changing client behavior.

Dharmesh: Previously, when I spoke to Paula, it was really around how do we use that as an example, we would have a competition to potentially win your home loan back, if you just stayed up to date on your debt repayments.

Dharmesh: That was a fabulous little initiative that worked really well, came at a really low cost to the company, but was of huge value to clients.

Dharmesh: However, still when you compare it on a line-by-line basis with the competition, the value back, the actual rands and cents back in customer pockets was just not enough relative to the competition and therefore, the ability to keep customers at Nedbank because of the rewards program was somewhat limited, which then necessitated a further investment in the program and a revamp of actually the structure of the program where we’ve now got proper tiering.

Dharmesh: It is still a paid-for program.

Dharmesh: We’ve got a renewed investment in the program, so substantially more money back to customers, which was quite a big piece that we needed to sort of win in the organization and get people to support us in actually doing a bank-wide program.

Dharmesh: And now we can see that it’s something that clients in the market resonate with.

Dharmesh: Why?

Dharmesh: Because I guess, you know, South Africans are used to a type, a certain type of rewards program from banking, if you look at what all the competition looks like.

Dharmesh: And of course, there’s a lot more value back, which ensures that we can ensure that our customers stay with us, do more with us.

Dharmesh: And they actually see value in banking with Nedbank.

Dharmesh: I think that’s the big thing, is how does it benefit the customer?

Dharmesh: And it also needs to benefit the bank as well, because I always say, these things are not just about putting in the cost and giving all the money away, and it’s not to the benefit of the bank as well.

Dharmesh: It’s got to benefit both parties and then in a way also benefit society.

Dharmesh: So it’s sort of that three parties that we’re always thinking about in our commercial models.

Amanda: Completely, like, it’s insane to think that what you just said at the end isn’t the premise that everybody has to work off.

Amanda: You can’t create the most perfect program that just rewards customers, but actually is going to sink the bank, but you can’t protect the bank at all costs, so you’re not competitive in giving back maximum value.

Amanda: And then to bring in the impact on society, and in your case, I’m sure in the environment as well, it’s the perfect triangle.

Amanda: So you’ve mentioned twice now, so I’m going to pick you up on it, and we’re going to talk about it a little bit more around bank-wide loyalty, and it’s one of my favorite subjects, because I really do see this coming through so, so strongly in our market, in the South African marketplace.

Amanda: And when I have the privilege, as you know, of being a judge on the International Loyalty Awards, I don’t see it coming through anywhere nearly as strongly across other countries and other world-class banking rewards programs.

Amanda: So, talk to us about how have you achieved that?

Amanda: Because it takes a lot of change management.

Amanda: It’s not something you can achieve.

Amanda: As you said, you’ve gone from the Amex Swipe program when you started through to a really thorough bank-wide program.

Dharmesh: Yeah, I think when we first started, we didn’t have the appetite across the organization to invest in the rewards.

Dharmesh: Amanda, I think that’s quite a big thing, because what happens is the costs come up front and the potential benefits you’re only seeing five years, three to five years later.

Dharmesh: So there isn’t any incentive for folk in the business to say, well, actually, I’m willing to give you another, I don’t know, let’s just call it 10 Rand for your program because I’d much rather use it for something else and I see better value somewhere else.

Dharmesh: The first thing I think that’s important with bank-wide is there’s got to be a willingness to do it across the Xcode table and that needs to be driven by the top leadership.

Dharmesh: The senior executive and the CFO need to be completely behind it and telling us like, guys, this is something that we’re going to do.

Dharmesh: We are going to do it and so you’re going to have to invest further in the program because without that level of almost telling people that we’re doing it, it’s very difficult to then convince people otherwise.

Dharmesh: So I think that’s maybe step number one.

Dharmesh: I think step number two is then saying, well, guys, but you also got to show what the benefit you think we are going to see from the program.

Dharmesh: I think once you’ve proven that aspect of the program, the willingness to invest is significantly greater.

Dharmesh: So there’s also mechanisms that we think about in terms of how we fund the program.

Dharmesh: So as you know, Nedbank is a charge for program, always has been.

Dharmesh: So of course, that’s the way in which we would fund the program.

Dharmesh: And in the market in South Africa, I think as you’ve mentioned, there’s just fabulous competition, quite honestly.

Dharmesh: At times, some of them are better than us.

Dharmesh: Maybe some of them are not so, not better than us.

Dharmesh: But it’s just such a fabulous place to be in the sense that you can’t sort of sit back.

Dharmesh: You’re always on your toes.

Dharmesh: Someone’s always changing something.

Dharmesh: You’ve got to be on top of everything.

Dharmesh: And you’ve got to be able to follow quite quickly.

Dharmesh: So I think that’s just such a beautiful environment within which we operate.

Dharmesh: So yeah, I’m not sure if that’s completely answered it, Amanda, but I think those were pretty much the key points, I think, that one would need if we’re looking to do sort of bank-wide loyalty.

Dharmesh: I guess maybe the last piece I’d add is you need the priority technologically to get it done.

Dharmesh: So it needs to be a high priority for the organization to get it through all these tech funnels that potentially get all clogged up.

Dharmesh: So those are potentially just the point is that I would maybe lay out for anyone that’s keen to do it.

Amanda: I think the most significant thing you’ve said there, which rests in terms of what I’ve heard, as well as just whether it’s technology and the initial investment, as you say, it took a while initially for the bank to start go, okay, we’re not just giving away money.

Amanda: But is the buy-in from senior leadership, like I’ve worked on so many programs around the world where if you don’t have that buy-in, it is so difficult to always describe it as like pushing water uphill.

Amanda: Whereas if you’ve got the buy-in, it just happens obviously with a lot of work and strategic intent.

Amanda: But so it’s great to see that that change management process came about because of that senior buy-in at whichever level you needed it to happen.

Amanda: Great.

Amanda: So I’d love to pick your brains now over how do you measure success?

Amanda: Like as you said, you’re in this mightily competitive marketplace.

Amanda: You’re looking to your competitors all the time to see what’s new, what’s coming.

Amanda: Some are doing some great things.

Amanda: You’re doing amazing things.

Amanda: How are you measuring success?

Dharmesh: Yeah.

Dharmesh: So I think the first thing we look at is engagement, because firstly, are people using the program?

Dharmesh: Were they using it before?

Dharmesh: Are they using it now?

Dharmesh: It’s a very simple thing, but it could be quite detrimental if people aren’t actually using it.

Dharmesh: I think it’s quite an elementary thing, but quite an important one.

Dharmesh: We’ve seen engagement go up 25 percent since launch of the new program.

Dharmesh: That was January last year.

Dharmesh: By the end of the year last year, that was up 25 percent.

Dharmesh: In terms of people now engaging and earning points, we’ve seen a concomitant change in redemptions.

Dharmesh: That’s up at about 25-30 percent in redemptions.

Dharmesh: Our membership’s up 20 percent, so we’ve even got more people joining the program.

Dharmesh: As I said, it is a paid-for program, so of course, the more people that join and that are sort of not in the bundled products, the more money the bank makes, and the more that we can fund through the rewards program.

Dharmesh: We’ve also looked at people going to, for example, New Metro, people filling up at BP service stations, people going on to our Evo e-commerce store and purchasing the Apple Samsung products and other products that are further discounted.

Dharmesh: Those are all the metrics we’ve looked at, just to gauge whether or not people are finding the program a little bit more exciting and in fact, therefore willing to engage with it, right?

Dharmesh: So that was sort of the aspect number one.

Dharmesh: I guess the second aspect is, is this thing actually changing behavior that leads to incremental sort of uplift in client behavior?

Dharmesh: So, you know, some of the stuff we’re looking at, and it’s been quite fascinating to see the change in people using different types of cards, you know, whether it’s Visa, Master, Amex, of course, the skew is towards Amex, and we’ve seen a slight increase in there.

Dharmesh: I mean, we’d obviously love to see a lot more in terms of usage of the Amex plastic, but we have seen an increase in usage of Amex since the launch of the program.

Dharmesh: And then, of course, we’ve also seen a very, a fabulous data point is actually we’ve seen people increasing their savings balances, right, to get that structured saver goal.

Dharmesh: So as a bank, that’s one of the most beautiful things that we can ever hope for because of course, any savings or deposits are things that we would leverage through the rest of the bank.

Dharmesh: I mean, it’s sort of the bare bones of banking.

Dharmesh: And we’ve really seen people take onto that and in fact, invest in the on balance sheet products with the bank.

Dharmesh: So that’s been very encouraging for us as well.

Dharmesh: And then on the transactional banking side, which is really the key aspect for any retail bank is are people banking with you and are they using your transactional account?

Dharmesh: Now, what we find is that not all our transactional product holders are on greenbacks, but sort of there’s quite a big majority of them that are.

Dharmesh: And then what we find is that the people that are on greenbacks, a much bigger percentage of those are actually main banked with Nedbank.

Dharmesh: So very clearly, your loyalty clients are seriously some of the gems of the sort of bank retail banking clients.

Dharmesh: So that’s really been encouraging for us to see, Amanda.

Amanda: I think when listening to you now, I really enjoyed what you said about, even if we just could say savings accounts, because clearly that’s good for the bank.

Amanda: You explained why.

Amanda: But it’s clearly good as well for the consumer.

Amanda: Rather than this continuous motivate or sort of incentivization to spend more, swipe more, get money back on the swipe, it’s actually good for the consumer as well.

Amanda: So that really pulls together the essence of why a bank-wide program makes so much sense because it’s good for the bank, but it’s also exceptionally good for the consumer.

Amanda: So thank you for sharing.

Amanda: Actually, just that one point alone for me brought it to life so powerfully.

Amanda: So in terms of how you deliver this evolving program across Nedbank, so you’re platformed on the Comarch system and you have been so for quite a long time.

Amanda: Talk to us about the rest of your team, like what you mentioned when you started 10 years ago, there was you plus three.

Amanda: What is the team structure?

Amanda: How do you pull all of this off?

Dharmesh: So I think we’re a little bit more than three now.

Dharmesh: I won’t disclose the full number, but let’s just say it’s less than 30 people.

Dharmesh: So it’s not a big team, a very specialized team.

Dharmesh: And I think if you look at my sort of my leadership team, it’s really around data analytics, configuration, change management and financial uplift, and then how do we keep improving the CVP.

Dharmesh: So literally four big aspects that we’re looking at from our side specifically.

Dharmesh: And then of course there’s people outside of our business that support us, for example, marketing, technology, etc.

Dharmesh: As well as Comarch, who have been a great partner to us and have been a partner to us for a very long time.

Dharmesh: So I think that’s pretty much how we sort of structured Amanda from our side.

Amanda: But I’m picking back up actually on the change management piece.

Amanda: In your leadership team, you say you actually have a focus on change management, which I guess is how you’re managing to pull off the bank-wide solution, because you’re continuously having to keep the bank who’ve got other priorities or other initiatives or other ideas of new products and so forth deeply involved in order to get the best solution for customers.

Amanda: So great to see that and great to see the reference to change management continuously, even in your structure, not just in terms of how you persuaded top management.

Dharmesh: Can I maybe just add to that, Amanda?

Dharmesh: You know, one of the roles, one of the jobs of that individual is to also get the rest of the organization, so all 27,000 employees, understanding what our value proposition is so that they’re part of it.

Dharmesh: That’s been a really, really big job, you know, because if your staff aren’t sort of buying it and don’t understand it, well, very little luck getting it out to clients and into the market.

Dharmesh: So that’s been quite a big job that we’ve had to do, but quite an important one as well.

Dharmesh: So thank you for just reminding me about that piece, yeah.

Amanda: And interestingly, Dharmesh, when we’re asked as truth to do an audit of a program, which is something we tend to do a lot of because there are so many programs in the market, one of the aspects we look at is, is this program loved by its people?

Amanda: Or do they just know nothing about it?

Amanda: And typically, we find it’s one of the areas that a lot of brands fall short.

Amanda: Like they’re just on investing in that part of it.

Amanda: So it’s lovely to hear that 27,000 people are being communicated with regularly about Greenbacks.

Amanda: You also talked about data, how much of your team’s structure is around data and analytics and so on.

Amanda: So share with us the beauty of AI that every loyalty professional in the world is talking about at the moment.

Amanda: But how have you weaved the AI capability within the bank into what you’re doing for data analytics performance and work you need in the Greenbacks team?

Dharmesh: So, Amanda, I think at the moment we’re very much at the elementary phase of it.

Dharmesh: We most certainly haven’t implemented AI to its full extent within our program.

Dharmesh: But it’s definitely a piece of work we currently, I mean, I won’t tell you what his name is, but he’s busy working on what that strategy looks like and how do we bring it into the program.

Dharmesh: But the basic, the premise of it really is how do we just get better in terms of getting the right rewards to the right people at the right time.

Dharmesh: Because I think that’s where the power lies for us.

Dharmesh: It also limits our cost of investing in huge generic rewards for everyone which probably 50% or 40% may use.

Dharmesh: So for us, it’s really around how do we make sure that we’re using that data to get better at targeting and personalizing that reward for the client.

Dharmesh: Are we there yet?

Dharmesh: My answer is no.

Dharmesh: So maybe on the next episode or sometime in the future, we can talk about that and how we have actually done it.

Dharmesh: But we are on a journey to getting that done in our space without a doubt.

Dharmesh: But I think the premise still is whatever happens and whoever does it is how do you get AI to run your program?

Dharmesh: Automatically, it does it.

Dharmesh: And it also can trigger the right rewards to the right person at the right time, which are personalized and it’s not exactly the same for everyone else.

Dharmesh: So for me, that’s almost the nirvana perhaps that we could look for in the short term, with I think a lot more possibility in the near future as well.

Amanda: I think your point there is, are we there yet?

Amanda: No one’s ever there, right?

Amanda: No one’s ever at the end because there is no end.

Amanda: It doesn’t matter what you’re developing, how far advanced you are, there’s always more to improve on.

Amanda: So you’re lovely.

Amanda: Okay.

Amanda: So thank you for sharing all of that.

Amanda: Is there anything else?

Amanda: You’ve shared the whole story with us.

Amanda: I’m about to draw our wonderful discussion to a close, but anything else you’d like to share with the global audience of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV?

Dharmesh: Amanda, nothing further from my side.

Dharmesh: It’s just that if anyone would like to do this and would like to talk about it, please feel free to reach out.

Dharmesh: I am on LinkedIn.

Dharmesh: I’m more than happy to chat to you.

Dharmesh: Just to you, a big thank you and a huge privilege and honor always to be here.

Dharmesh: Thank you so much.

Amanda: Amazing.

Amanda: Thanks Dharmesh.

Amanda: I’ll add your LinkedIn connection into the show notes.

Amanda: Thank you so much.

Amanda: It’s been a real pleasure.

Dharmesh: Thanks, Amanda.

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