Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.
Paula: This episode is brought to you by Epsilon, a leading global loyalty partner that boasts over 50 years supercharging brand experiences.
Paula: Epsilon is delighted to announce the arrival of its award-winning loyalty solutions to the Middle East and Asia Pacific region.
Paula: Its PeopleCloud loyalty technology and services are designed to create hyper-personalized and emotional connections with customers.
Paula: Perfect for consumers in the Middle East and Asia Pacific countries.
Paula: For more information, visit apac.epsilon.com forward slash letstalkloyalty or drop me an email and I’ll put you in touch.
Paula: So welcome to the latest episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: And today I am delighted to be talking to one of our sponsors and a real friend of the show.
Paula: So Ashish Sinha is the managing director for Epsilon for Asia Pacific and the Middle East and Africa.
Paula: So first of all, let me welcome Ashish Sinha to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Ashish: Thank you, Paula.
Paula: Great to have you Ashish.
Paula: You’re with me today coming from the Global Delivery Center in Bangalore.
Ashish: That’s correct, from the land of India.
Paula: Wonderful, wonderful.
Paula: So I know you have a huge team there Ashish and I know you have a fantastic career that we’re going to talk about today.
Paula: I think over 23 years as a business leader covering all sorts of exciting things from marketing analytics through to loyalty, particularly I think leading global 500 companies to explore their loyalty challenges at scale.
Paula: Am I right?
Ashish: That’s correct.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: And tell me actually Ashish, how big is your team there in Bangalore?
Ashish: Well, Paula, the team in Bangalore is about 2,600, but that’s a team that sort of really helps manage, build, operate platforms across the globe for our Fortune 500 clients.
Ashish: But we also have a very strong team that sits in various cities within APAC, in Singapore and Sydney, and we’re actually gonna open up an office in Dubai, but it is a global team.
Paula: Fantastic, fantastic.
Paula: So I think the purpose of our conversation today, Ashish, is really to talk about, I suppose, the state of the loyalty industry as we settle into 2021.
Paula: And again, you do have extraordinary experience across big global brands, which is always super fascinating.
Paula: Thrilling for me to hear that you’re planning to set up an office in Dubai, supported by those massive operational capabilities, as you said, out of India.
Paula: So before we get into hearing everything that you’re working on, tell me first and foremost, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?
Ashish: All right, Paula.
Ashish: So I’m going to flip the question quickly because I found a wonderful statistic about your podcast, which is your listenership has increased by a whopping 168% over the last one year.
Ashish: And you’re the, I think the number one podcast in the UAE and Ireland.
Ashish: I got these stats today and I’m so amazed by it.
Ashish: So I thought I’ll bring that up front.
Paula: Thank you Ashish, that’s very kind of you.
Ashish: So I know you’re going to make me speak about loyalty, but I think we’re going to have to share your secret sauce around loyalty too.
Ashish: As we go down the road.
Ashish: My favorite statistic.
Ashish: Well, it’s an interesting one and it’s probably very sort of topical of the day.
Ashish: It’s 80, 70, 60.
Ashish: And so what does that mean?
Ashish: Do you know that 80% of your online shoppers are usually members of one or more loyalty programs?
Ashish: So that’s the first stat.
Paula: Okay.
Ashish: Did you know that loyal online shoppers are 70% more probable to buy a product than a non-member?
Ashish: And finally, loyalty members spend 60% more online than non-members.
Ashish: So that’s the 80, 70, 60.
Ashish: And I say that because, and I can give you context, it’s really applicable to this COVID era.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yeah, COVID is something that I mean, unfortunately, has to come up in all of these key conversations.
Paula: And I know when we talked before, e-commerce is a key passion of yours.
Paula: And I will actually share, that I have some background myself with it, both loyalty and e-commerce, because I believe they can really drive each other.
Paula: So it is an extraordinary opportunity.
Paula: And I know you even sent me through some incredible statistics, particularly how e-commerce is exploding in India.
Paula: And I think we know it’s exploding all over the world, but even I see predictions that India might even overtake the United States as the world’s number two e-commerce marketplace in, I think it’s 2034, if I’m correct.
Ashish: Yeah, I mean, I wish we had a crystal ball that went even longer, but that’s the furthest we could take it.
Ashish: But to your point, it’s e-commerce across the world.
Ashish: And as you know, it’s because people have more time to get onto their laptops or onto their phone because they’re sitting at home.
Ashish: And e-commerce is the channel for transaction now.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: And it is, and it has obviously extraordinary benefits.
Paula: It has extraordinary potential to explode even further.
Paula: I think we both agree.
Paula: But I think what we’re hoping to talk about today, and I’m really keen to hear your perspective is, where is the opportunity for people within loyalty to drive e-commerce?
Paula: And e-commerce can really drive loyalty as well, because I think there’s that extraordinary opportunity to excel on the customer service front, particularly in an e-commerce environment.
Paula: Is that something that you’re hearing?
Ashish: That’s true, Paula.
Ashish: And I think e-commerce actually is probably the most robust KPI for a loyalty leader, if they want to measure the success of their loyalty program.
Ashish: So in fact, we have lots of brands that are doing two things.
Ashish: One is really getting to know their customer really, really well, in a way, owning their digital journey.
Ashish: So not just when they engage with their own brand, but with other brands.
Ashish: And then really helping customers and their consumers buy from them.
Ashish: Because right now what’s happening is, a lot of times brands market through Facebook or Google, and they have purchases made through Amazon or other e-commerce sites.
Ashish: And I think what we’re seeing is loyalty leaders are saying, well, you know what, I should have a direct relationship with my loyal customer.
Ashish: I know them better than anybody else.
Ashish: Right now that relationship is broken because it’s walking through so many different channels.
Ashish: And I think e-commerce is a great way to get customers to engage with you and finally to monetize.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And it’s funny actually Ashish, because as I mentioned, I have both passion for e-commerce and passion for loyalty, as you know.
Paula: And I’ll quickly share this story because it’s exactly what we’re seeing now, just it’s happening in different sectors right now, I think for your clients.
Paula: And there’s a couple of them particularly I want to ask you about.
Paula: But the quick story I was going to share is, I worked as the e-commerce marketing manager for Emirates Airline.
Paula: And exactly to your point Ashish, this is 20 years ago when travel agents were the intermediary.
Paula: So the airline itself didn’t have a direct to consumer relationship.
Paula: They had started their loyalty program Skywards.
Paula: But when we launched the e-commerce booking engine, it was an extraordinary opportunity to use the levers of loyalty to offer bonus miles to book directly online and to use that channel for the first time.
Paula: So is that what you’re seeing is coming through with your own clients?
Ashish: It is Paula.
Ashish: And that’s just an amazing example because it looks like you did that quite a while back.
Ashish: And you know you have brands now, brands now that are catching up 20 years later.
Paula: Sure.
Ashish: So that’s great.
Ashish: And you’re absolutely correct.
Ashish: Having that direct conversation with your loyal customer is so, so important because so many brands are vying for that loyalty.
Ashish: And I think the true sort of end of the cycle is when you engage with the loyal customer and they buy from you because at the end of the day, you are looking for results.
Ashish: And so we can talk about some of the e-commerce strategies a lot of brands are embarking on.
Ashish: But your Emirates example is a quintessential one.
Paula: And certainly a proud moment, Ashish, and I know you’re going to give us plenty more, but what I want to just pick up on what you mentioned though, because I think it is definitely a big trend that I’m hearing and that’s moving away from the platforms where maybe historically we’ve done all of the marketing or the pay-per-click, for example.
Paula: And yes, they have a role to play, but increasingly I think customers prefer to deal directly with the brand purely from a trust perspective.
Paula: So I think that’s what I’m hearing you’re saying in terms of we want to have direct relationships with these brands.
Paula: And I think it’s incumbent on the brands to create the opportunity for us to do that.
Ashish: That’s very true.
Ashish: That’s very true.
Ashish: I think we’re going through a period of great mistrust.
Ashish: I think we have had some of the platform, we call them the walled gardens, whether it’s the Facebooks or the Amazons, they’re all under the scanner by the public, by the government about the way they use the data.
Ashish: Because you are sharing data with them.
Ashish: Now the great thing is heads of loyalty actually have access to the most powerful data, which is first party data.
Ashish: And it is given by consent because people join up to your program and they’re basically saying, I trust you enough for you to take care of my data and then you have the obligation to take care of the data and engage in very privacy compliant ways, but in very good experiential ways.
Ashish: But the whole idea being that I think customers are getting wary of the big tech giants as they say.
Ashish: And they’re gonna trust brands that are very transparent, very honest and very open in engaging with them.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yeah, I think what we’re both saying Ashish, I definitely share that feeling myself just as a consumer, where I suppose I engaged with these platforms, primarily for entertainment and again to connect with family and friends.
Paula: So there’s an inherent, I suppose, loyalty to them for creating that opportunity.
Paula: But as you said, it almost feels like a lot of them have gone too far and now it is a case where I’d say, actually, no, I’d rather deal with Emirates.
Paula: I’d rather deal directly with the brand because they have the explicit policies where I know there isn’t any other party involved.
Paula: So I think the commercialization of the platforms is really where I think people are just starting to get uncomfortable, as you said.
Ashish: That’s true, Paula.
Ashish: I think the ecosystem will have both, to your point.
Ashish: They all have their utilities, but I really believe that I think customers are going to look to brands and really say, are you being honest with my data?
Ashish: And if you engage with me and you transact with me in transparent ways, I will buy more from you.
Ashish: And that’s important, really important.
Paula: And do you think it is because of COVID, Ashish?
Paula: Do you think this is something that has been either triggered or accelerated by the pandemic?
Paula: Or what is that context from a trust perspective?
Ashish: I think it’s a mix.
Ashish: And to your point, I think a lot of this has been triggered by COVID because so much of our interactions have moved online, whether the way we interact or engage with OTT, the way we engage with websites, everything we’re doing, Spotify, it’s all online and data is being generated and it’s being gathered.
Ashish: And I think people are finding it a little spooky because suddenly the Amazons and the Googles know much more about you than you know about yourself.
Ashish: And so I think it’s getting a little scary.
Ashish: But again, like I said, this is where custodians of data, first-party data are truly your heads of loyalty because they manage fabulous data which they have to protect.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And again, just to, I suppose, emphasize the new sectors that I’m seeing it in.
Paula: And I’d love to hear any examples you have Ashish.
Paula: So we’ve talked about travel.
Paula: It always really was, I suppose, the forefront of loyalty, the forefront of e-commerce.
Paula: So it’s not that surprising, I suppose, to hear that it was Emirates 20 years ago.
Paula: But one I saw recently that I thought was fascinating was Coca Cola in the United States.
Paula: And they have launched direct-to-consumer loyalty initiatives.
Paula: Now, certainly in the US, they’ve had their e-commerce businesses.
Paula: Now, I’ve never bought Coca Cola directly from Coca Cola.
Paula: I don’t know about you.
Paula: But what I like is the fact that as an FMCG brand, they are starting to realize again that they need to have this direct connection.
Paula: So I think it’s called the Insiders Club.
Paula: So are you thinking that that other verticals like FMCG can really leverage that, even if they’re maybe not as powerful as Coca Cola as a brand?
Ashish: Oh, absolutely, Paula.
Ashish: We have clients in the FMCG sector that are saying, we are so disintermediated from our customers and we should know our customers better than anyone else if we really want them to love us as a brand and if you want them to become loyal.
Ashish: So I think you’re going to see many more FMCG brands and other verticals looking to build what we call D2C relationships.
Ashish: And it again boils down to building the trust and really, really owning and engaging with the customer like never before.
Ashish: As I said, people are now moving online.
Ashish: It is no more nice to have.
Ashish: It is table stakes now.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And I think what a lot of people maybe in the past wouldn’t have really thought about is, how are they being compared to other online giants?
Paula: And Amazon is the obvious example.
Paula: So in the past, as a retailer, perhaps you might have had your online experience and your offline experience.
Paula: And perhaps the offline experience was more well developed, more mature.
Paula: But actually, as you said, people now are just on the computer and comparing these e-commerce experiences that you almost have to be as good as Amazon if you’re going to have a hope.
Ashish: Absolutely.
Ashish: Absolutely.
Ashish: They call it the three A’s.
Ashish: People can buy anywhere, anytime and in any way they want.
Ashish: So you could be in Brazil or you could be in Singapore.
Ashish: You could be buying the same product.
Ashish: You could buy it at 12 midnight.
Ashish: You could buy it at six in the morning.
Ashish: And you can buy it either through internet banking or through Google Pay.
Ashish: And so that democratization of the buying process really means that brands have to think about their, especially their loyal customers in very different ways, especially how they engage online.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And you said something even before we came on air, I think the last time we spoke Ashish, which I really loved because it’s a point that has been made on the show, but probably still needs more emphasis.
Paula: And it’s actually that now more than ever, the brand needs to be loyal to the customer and really demonstrate empathy.
Paula: So I think a lot of us build loyalty programs and say, great, we want our customers to be more loyal and buy more, and we do.
Paula: But I think you have that perspective that really just is, how can we demonstrate that loyalty?
Ashish: Oh, absolutely.
Ashish: And it’s even more magnified during these tough times.
Ashish: I mean, COVID has been crazy and it’s left a lot of families battered financially, physically, in all ways, mentally.
Ashish: And when, like you mentioned, we always talk as brands about getting loyal customers, I think we have to be loyal brands too.
Ashish: And here’s some examples of what it means to be a loyal brand.
Ashish: You know, there is a brand we know and this is sort of the wrong side of the house.
Ashish: An example that I feel is something you should not follow.
Ashish: A brand that had a loyalty program and found that the average spend of some of their loyalty members was declining that drastically.
Ashish: And so their action was, well, guess what?
Ashish: Let’s just throw more promotions and offers at them.
Ashish: But little did they realize that, you know, the purchasing power of that loyal member had really gone down because they had lost their jobs.
Ashish: Right?
Ashish: And so it is extremely, and that’s where, you know, a consumer can give a very sour taste with consumers if you engage with them in ways when you shouldn’t, when the situation is not right.
Ashish: And on the flip side, we have another brand.
Ashish: It’s actually a bank that during COVID, I recall that instead of again, pounding their prospects and customers with, you know, open an account or open up a brokerage account or buy insurance, they were actually talking about, hey, if you’re a small business owner, here are ways you can get access to zero interest emergency funds that have been deployed by the government.
Ashish: So instead of saying, come and get a home loan from us, they’re basically saying, you know, it’s tough times, the government has a better option and here’s how you can go about getting it.
Ashish: And I think that’s when you’re loyal to your consumer.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I’ve often said before as well, Ashish, what I love about these conversations is we get to talk about the emotion of loyalty because, you know, I deliberately didn’t call the show Let’s Talk Loyalty programs because, you know, we all know the points and prizes and we know the mechanics, but it’s the underlying intention of taking care of each other that I think is coming through in the kind of work that you guys are doing.
Ashish: They say loyalty and family.
Paula: Yeah.
Ashish: They’re interchangeable.
Paula: Yeah.
Ashish: And it’s all about experiences.
Paula: Yeah.
Ashish: That’s true.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: So what do you mean by experiences, Ashish?
Ashish: Well, I think again, this comes to a point of, you know, just is this another offer or a discount, or do you earn and burn points?
Ashish: It’s so transactional.
Ashish: And you may have heard of this.
Ashish: It’s about really now building those emotional connects because your loyal member is like a part of your family.
Ashish: And you’ve got to treat them like your family.
Ashish: You cannot be always hounding them with deals.
Ashish: You know, the best deal of the day.
Ashish: You have to, like, if we have a large pharmacy giant, and I can actually mention the name Walgreens, they are just, they transform the loyalty program from being very much a points-based system and rewards-based system to one which is extremely experiential, which means if you have a certain ailment, then every month Walgreens will make sure you get, you know, kind of tips, ways of tackling your ailments, new diets.
Ashish: And so, in a way, it’s looking after, they’re looking after your well-being, not just trying to push more drugs to you.
Ashish: And I think that that’s when you feel, you know, they’re a loyal brand to you because they’re doing much more than just giving you the next best deal.
Paula: That’s an extraordinary example.
Paula: I’d heard they’d rebranded it as Ashish, and I know you guys run the Walgreens program, but I didn’t really understand, I suppose, the intention behind it.
Paula: And I know from my own kind of research and writing that, you know, lots of other, again, e-commerce players are trying to move into Walgreens overall business in terms of, you know, sending out drugs, for example, just kind of shipping the prescription.
Paula: But that whole approach of, I suppose, wellness and I suppose true personalization, because my goodness, health is first and foremost.
Paula: And again, the context of COVID means that the level of appreciation that I would have for my pharmacy to actually help manage any condition, if I have one, I think that’s just a really lovely insight.
Ashish: Oh, true.
Ashish: And again, it boils down to, if you have a family, you’re going to be loyal to them and you’re going to do other things than just transactions.
Ashish: You know, Walgreens also has a great prescription refill reminder.
Ashish: They have, you know, curbside pickups so that, you know, it’s contactless in terms of any kind of exchange of goods.
Ashish: They really are looking after you and your safety and your wellness to your point.
Ashish: So I think they’ve moved away from, I’m selling drugs to let me help you with your health.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And dare I say it, I think for some brands, it almost took COVID to really kind of, I suppose, make us take a step back and go, what am I doing here?
Paula: You know, what is my purpose as a business?
Paula: You know, nevermind again, a structured loyalty program.
Paula: So if I’m not here just to market my stuff, I’m here to again, do business and take care of my family.
Ashish: That’s correct, Paula.
Ashish: There are many, many examples.
Ashish: And I think the winners through COVID are gonna be those that stuck by their consumers, that had a great online sort of interface and that gave great experiences.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I know again, even looking back at previous, I suppose, challenging times in the world, like, you know, for example, 2008 would have been a time where economically there was a lot of recession happening.
Paula: And my own experience at the time was brands that invested in the customer relationship at that exact time, first of all, it was actually almost easier to stand out for doing simple things well.
Paula: And I think those businesses definitely thrived in the years to come.
Paula: So it’s almost just the need to kind of go, okay, actually, there’s a dramatic situation and it’s time to step back and really just kind of go, okay, what can we do for the long-term relationship?
Paula: And again, just to kind of earn that loyalty over time.
Ashish: That’s correct.
Ashish: And I think when you have a loyalty program or you have loyalty members, you’re not looking at them for a purchase, you know, three months from now, you know, you’re looking at customer lifetime value.
Ashish: In fact, you want their kids and their, and your grandkids to be loyal to your brand.
Ashish: And it’s really a long-term play.
Ashish: And so I think brands that invest now, that give experiences, that are not always looking at pushing out promotions are gonna be the winners down the road.
Paula: So Ashish, we’ve talked about trust and I think we’ve talked about e-commerce.
Paula: So what other trends do you see coming through in terms of, I suppose, both Epsilon clients and just your overall work with their loyalty programs in general?
Ashish: Yes.
Ashish: Paula, we feel that at the end of the day, the trend is going to emanate from the consumer.
Ashish: And we see some fundamental shifts in the way consumer sentiments are shifting, especially during these profound times.
Ashish: One trend is really around escapism.
Ashish: And Paula, I think you probably will relate to this.
Ashish: We are so fatigued about what’s going on around us.
Ashish: There is a level of pessimism.
Ashish: There are folks with some serious mental health issues just because of the last one year.
Ashish: And so people are trying to escape from reality.
Ashish: And this is where, again, coming back to experiences, which is why it’s so important to have true personalization.
Ashish: And I’ll give you some examples of kind of how this is working.
Ashish: The fact is that, I don’t know if you’re aware of this, there’s a new trend, it’s called isolationist traveling.
Ashish: And so there are travel companies that have realized that no one’s gonna jump on a flight, go to a sea resort, mingle with lots of people, have a rave party.
Ashish: That’s not gonna happen now.
Ashish: These are crazy times.
Ashish: But people are looking for experiences where they can go on trips on their own.
Ashish: They’re looking for road trips, they’re looking for remote camping.
Ashish: And so the kind of experiences you give now to your consumers are ones where you can help them really escape from reality and do it in a very safe way.
Paula: That’s incredibly insightful because again, I’ve done plenty of staycations in the last 12 months.
Paula: And again, you know, my own home country of Ireland, for example, you know, people aren’t even allowed being traveled to the airport.
Paula: So even if they were willing themselves and brave enough to get on a flight, which I think many would, they just unfortunately can’t get there.
Paula: So what I love though is a lot of airlines, I think are starting to kind of see those opportunities to even partner with other kind of maybe more local partnerships to drive that kind of loyalty to say, okay, we can’t reward your loyalty with a free flight.
Paula: So let’s, for example, fulfill it with the staycation.
Paula: And I know you have hotel clients, for example, but even if it is just actually, a campsite in the desert, I’d be perfectly happy to use my loyalty points and go and stay in a mountain somewhere.
Ashish: Sure, absolutely.
Ashish: Paula, in fact, you brought up hotels, Marriott is a client of ours and they essentially kind of caught up with this wave of people want to sort of escape from reality, even though it’s sometimes very difficult to do that.
Ashish: So one of the features they brought into their program was essentially booking for the future with extremely flexible cancellation policies.
Ashish: So, there’s peace of mind, you can book a holiday with your current points 12 months from now.
Ashish: And in six months, if you see that it’s not gonna work out, it’s very easy to cancel.
Ashish: And I think it also gives you hope, it makes you think about all the good days, it makes you think about, wow, there’s something I’m looking forward to.
Ashish: And that’s the experience Marriott created by saying, you know what, you can’t travel now, but guess what?
Ashish: Book for the future.
Ashish: And if it doesn’t work out, hey, we won’t find you.
Ashish: And we give your money back.
Paula: Yeah, and it’s actually to your same point earlier, Ashish, about the brand being loyal to the customer.
Paula: So that’s an exact example of Marriott kind of going, okay, this is way we can put their mind at rest.
Paula: And actually you’ve reminded me of one other personal example because I did travel home at Christmas while it was possible to get to Ireland.
Paula: And Emirates, for example, has a global COVID coverage.
Paula: So if you do travel with the airline and do unfortunately happen to get the infection, you can have all of your medical needs taken care of.
Paula: So I think there’s lots of examples coming through with all sorts of clients.
Paula: And again, I love the insight you have because you’ve got so many kind of big global brands.
Paula: And sometimes it’s a case where actually that’s something that anyone can do regardless of whether it’s an e-commerce company, whether it’s a hotel or an airline.
Paula: So lots of great ideas coming through.
Paula: Are there any others that you think we can share with the audience?
Ashish: Yeah, no, I’m trying to think of others.
Ashish: I mean, I can think of just simple ones that are not clients of ours, but I believe are doing, are nailing the concept of experiential loyalty.
Ashish: And a good example is Spotify.
Ashish: Okay.
Ashish: Spotify is just beating Apple Music hands down, and that’s because they have some really, really interesting ideas that they keep sprouting up.
Ashish: I don’t know if you’ve heard of Spotify Wrapped?
Paula: No, tell me.
Ashish: Spotify Wrapped is a really, really cool sort of program where you as a listener, Spotify looks at your history of music listening.
Ashish: It looks at the songs you’ve listened to the most, the bands you’ve listened to the most, and it creates this really kidsy kind of video which you can actually share on social media platforms.
Ashish: And it’s done at the end of the year.
Ashish: So in a way, you can go back to all the music you escaped to during the year.
Ashish: And you can see that in a video.
Ashish: And it’s really cute and funky and original.
Ashish: And it’s basically bringing all these songs that you listen to in funky ways together.
Ashish: And then that little video is something you can send to friends.
Ashish: And it’s a very small effective thing, but it’s a beautiful thing because people love that.
Ashish: And then, you don’t have to spend too much money on it.
Ashish: It’s very easy to do on technology, but it left such an impact on its users.
Ashish: That, again, like I said, I think they have really learned the art of driving loyalty.
Paula: And Spotify is an extraordinary brand.
Paula: And I think we all get a sense of satisfaction because, well, from my perspective, they’re really supporting podcasts.
Paula: So go Spotify.
Paula: Genuinely, I think the figure I saw they’ve invested is $600 million.
Paula: So they’ve brought some exclusive content, which again is probably something that loyalty program owners always aspire to, which is really create something exclusively for your customers.
Paula: So I love to think that Spotify is finding ways to drive loyalty because it’s not one that we think of typically.
Paula: And again, it’s an e-commerce brand that exists purely in a digital environment.
Ashish: That’s correct, Paula.
Ashish: And this also behooves a lot of traditional companies to push hard on their commerce activities, ongoing digital, otherwise they’re going to be left behind.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: So where do you think they are, Ashish?
Paula: Again, I think as we’ve said, the consumer appetite is ginormous, let’s just say.
Paula: And to our favorite statistics point, actually you gave me some as well, which I’m going to share with our listeners.
Paula: One is that in 2017, the e-commerce valuation in India was about $30 billion, with projections by 2026 to grow to $200 billion.
Paula: So I think there’s just an outstanding amount of opportunity there.
Paula: So what do you think loyalty program owners need to be thinking of to really capture all of that value?
Ashish: Yeah, Paula, I think this is where we have, or traditional loyalty programs, have engaged with customers sort of in what we call the offline world.
Ashish: So emails, brochures, in-store activity.
Ashish: And this is a time where loyalty leaders have to engage with customers in a very, very suave way digitally.
Ashish: And there are technologies out there that if used in extremely compliant ways and with the permission of your loyalty member, can essentially tell you how your loyalty member manages his or her day digitally.
Ashish: What kind of sites do they like?
Ashish: What kind of blogs do they visit?
Ashish: What are their passions?
Ashish: What are their interests?
Ashish: And you need to pick the signals digitally and capture them and then weave it into the way you personalize your next fixed actions with your loyal customers.
Ashish: So right now, a lot of programs, you have business rules that the marketeers devise based on inputs they see by segmenting the loyalty data that they get from their programs.
Ashish: But we are saying you’ve got to go a step ahead.
Ashish: Now you need to know much more about your loyal customer, not just what they do with your brand, and that also in an offline world, but you need to be able to understand how they live their online world and use that intelligence to hyper personalize how you engage with them.
Ashish: And I think that’s where I see a lot of loyalty leaders having to go, which is it’s not just important to have a loyalty program.
Ashish: You have to have almost a customer 360-degree view digital program that you bolt on top of your loyalty program.
Paula: Yeah, it sounds super complicated, Ashish.
Paula: I haven’t run a loyalty program in let’s say four or five years, and certainly that level of expertise wasn’t available on the programs I was running.
Paula: Is it something that’s already in operation for a lot of clients?
Paula: Do you think they’re getting that full 360 view?
Ashish: Paula, I have to be honest with you.
Ashish: I think there are clearly trendsetters that have been around that are really trying to push the boundary.
Ashish: I don’t think anyone’s reached that true 360 degree view of the customer because I think it’s almost impossible to know everything about Paula or everything about Ashish.
Ashish: But I think the technologies exist now where you can get, if not 360, you can get 320 degrees.
Ashish: Again, I think it’s very important as a brand that you let your consumer know what you’re doing, how you’re collecting the data and how you’re going to use it.
Ashish: You have to commit to them that you’re not going to misuse it, you’re not going to share it with anyone else.
Ashish: But once they understand and they trust you, the value you can get with that data and the way you can then engage with that consumer, they will pay you back a hundred times in terms of how they’ll engage with you, how they’ll talk about you, the reviews they’ll put on you on social media.
Ashish: I think it’s going to be great, it’s going to be great when loyalty heads can catch up with that sort of concept.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And my final one really was just around a previous show I did with one of your clients, which is the Dell loyalty program.
Paula: And what I particularly loved about that, and I’ll make sure to link to it in the show notes, so if anybody hasn’t heard that particular interview, what I really love is that between you guys, Dell have managed to build a purely gamification based loyalty program.
Paula: And I know they’ve kind of used the platform and really in what they would have described as, you know, quite a challenging, very lengthy life cycle in terms of their customers.
Paula: And again, in the context particularly, we’re talking about a lot of people feeling a bit, you know, down in the dumps at the moment.
Paula: To me, there’s a massive opportunity not just to have that customer 360 view, but also maybe to think about new strategies in partnership with people like you guys who have all the capabilities that you might need.
Paula: You might just have tapped into a particular strategy, but I think you can add pieces on as the loyalty world evolves.
Ashish: That’s correct.
Ashish: Do you know the industry that grew the most in 2020?
Ashish: Or one of the industries that grew the most was the online gaming industry.
Ashish: And you can imagine why that happened.
Ashish: There were people, there were folks who were looking for some excitement.
Ashish: They got online.
Ashish: In these online games, you can see scores of the people you’re competing with.
Ashish: And I think that’s the beauty of gamification, is you bring action to the online world.
Ashish: And I think there’s nothing like bringing gamification to loyalty.
Ashish: I think it’s a very powerful strategy.
Ashish: And if used in the right way, you can deliver many good results.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And also it’s certainly very cost effective strategy.
Paula: And again, that’s top of mind for a lot of people listening.
Paula: And I want to thank you, Ashish, for your kind words at the start of the show, in terms of my audience, because you’re absolutely right.
Paula: I feel very proud and humbled by the number of people who do listen to the show.
Paula: And if anybody listening wasn’t aware, there’s about 500 people listening now to every single show.
Paula: So when it comes to values that we’ve talked about in terms of trust, we’re here to share information.
Paula: We’re here to educate each other and we’re here to learn.
Paula: So I know that’s exactly what you guys do as well as friends at the show.
Paula: So lots of learnings, I think, from all of the work we do together.
Paula: My final question for you, Ashish, is just you briefly mentioned that you’re going to be setting up an office in Dubai.
Paula: So I’m hoping we get to meet face to face.
Paula: But tell me, have you any sense of when that might happen or what your plans might be for the Middle East region particularly?
Ashish: It is a market that we feel can really open up as we bring new technologies, because I think the consumers in that region are aspirational.
Ashish: They want to be taken care of.
Ashish: They want to be given options.
Ashish: They want to have fun.
Ashish: And it is a market that I think, well, at least I believe Epsilon can really thrive in.
Ashish: I hope we can do something this year.
Ashish: But you’ll be the first one to know, Paula, the moment we open it.
Paula: Well, on that note, Ashish, I’m super excited and I hope to be the first to know.
Paula: Is there anything else you wanted to share with the audience before we wrap up?
Ashish: No, Paula, I just feel great that you gave me the opportunity to speak to you and engage on this podcast.
Ashish: I’ve heard a couple of your podcasts and I must say, in fact, for a lot of people in Epsilon, your podcast has created quite a large impact.
Ashish: There are people talking about you, Paula, about how they can engage with you, how I can learn from you.
Ashish: I actually learned some very interesting things on this show.
Ashish: So thank you too, because you shared some learnings, which I’ll take back.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Well, listen, on that note, I will say Ashish Sinha, Managing Director for Epsilon APAC and Middle East and Africa.
Paula: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Ashish: Thank you, Paula.
Ashish: You take care.
Paula: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketer.
Paula: The world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.
Paula: The Wise Marketer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: For more information, check out thewisemarketer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.
Paula: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com, and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.
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Paula: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews, and thanks again for supporting the show.
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