#133: Livelo's Loyalty Leadership in Brazil

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.

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PAULA: For more information, please visit comarch.com.

PAULA: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: In keeping with our goal of sharing stories from global voices of loyalty, today I’m chatting with Daniel Pagano, Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Operations Officer at Livelo in Brazil.

PAULA: As one of the fastest growing and most profitable companies in Brazil, Livelo is a coalition program that’s focused on innovation and truly delighting its customers.

PAULA: There are loads of great ideas that Livelo has developed that I think many of you listening can think about for your own loyalty programs.

PAULA: So please enjoy today’s interview with Daniel Pagano of Livelo, Brazil.

PAULA: So, Daniel, I’m very excited to hear, please tell me, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?

DANIEL: Well, this is something that makes me think a lot on what to use on our day, on our daily basis.

DANIEL: And there are two that I really love.

DANIEL: So if you don’t mind, I’m going to say actually two that I do love.

DANIEL: The first one I’m going to talk to you about is what you call the engagement measure.

DANIEL: So we measure the nature and the intensity of the interaction that our clients have with us.

DANIEL: So we want them to be accumulating points, and we want them to be redeeming goods and services with the points.

DANIEL: So the more they interact in different kinds of services and products we offer, the closer the relationship, the deeper the relationship with us.

DANIEL: So we have different levels of engagement that we measure.

DANIEL: And our objective is to have, you know, like a pyramid, right?

DANIEL: So our objective is to have the clients moving from the bottom to the top of the pyramid in terms of engagement with us.

DANIEL: The stronger, the better, right?

DANIEL: Yeah, yeah.

DANIEL: The other one is the Net Promoter Score.

DANIEL: I really have the Net Promoter Score as a KPI for the whole company.

DANIEL: From the CEO to our analysts, we monitor it and we measure it, not only observing the results, but actually making sure that we define measures to improve specific Net Promoter Scores that we have on specific journeys, linking the feedbacks we receive, actions to correct whatever needs to be corrected, action plans with specific deadlines, responsibilities, accountabilities to solve that.

DANIEL: And then we check the effect on the NPS, on that specific NPS, once we are done with that corrective measure.

DANIEL: So we try to close the loop on the NPS and observe our progression over time so that we really tackle the most relevant things by the eyes of our customers.

DANIEL: So NPS for us is like a steering wheel for us regarding how much we are fulfilling the expectations of our customers.

DANIEL: We have been able to have some important increases in some journeys.

DANIEL: For example, in the redemption, we have the NPS for the redemption of our goods and services.

DANIEL: And we were able to over the last year, I can tell you that, we were able to increase 20 points in Net Promoters score because of the specific corrective actions we made.

DANIEL: So that was really…

DANIEL: So we are very happy.

DANIEL: I got to tell you, just last month, we reached a record level of 80 in our Net Promoters score for that specific journey.

DANIEL: That was…

DANIEL: We are very happy on that, and that’s why I’m very happy to share that by the way.

PAULA: Well, I mean, that’s a huge celebration, Daniel, because I mean, we could probably do a whole interview and a whole conversation just about this topic.

PAULA: I really believe it.

PAULA: And again, I think most of the listeners are very familiar with NPS, but for anyone who isn’t, I think it’s so important to remember it goes from minus 100 to plus 100.

PAULA: So for you to be at 80, you’re in the top, I guess, 10% if my maths is right.

PAULA: I’m not very good on the maths, but that’s an extraordinary score.

PAULA: And also what I like, Daniel, is that you’re doing it for very specific journeys you mentioned.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: Yeah?

DANIEL: Yeah.

PAULA: Tell me more about that.

PAULA: Like how many NPS would you be measuring, let’s say on a monthly basis?

PAULA: Because I think the mistake some companies do make is that they take, you know, how do you feel about Livelo?

PAULA: You know, and it’s so broad.

PAULA: Like I’ve been asked this question by so many companies, and I’m frustrated because I want to give them feedback.

PAULA: But the question is too broad, but I can’t say my redemption journey, you know, is something I can advocate.

PAULA: Do you know what I mean?

PAULA: So I’d love to get a sense of that, yeah.

DANIEL: Yeah, thank you for the question.

DANIEL: Actually, we divide the NPSs in, let’s say, two, let me say two types.

DANIEL: That is a transaction or an NPS.

DANIEL: So after a specific journey, we ask, you know, questions that will give us the NPS score.

PAULA: Okay.

DANIEL: So after a redemption, after the person is accumulating points in one of our partners, right?

DANIEL: After registering at Livelo.

DANIEL: So in different kinds of journeys, we ask how the person was satisfied or not with that specific journey.

DANIEL: And that’s what we call transactional NPS.

DANIEL: It’s per transaction, if I may.

DANIEL: And the other one is what we call the relationship or the relational, if the English is correct, NPS.

DANIEL: So it is, after a certain period, we ask the person, how are you satisfied, generally speaking, with Livelo?

DANIEL: So with the whole set of transactions the person is having with us, what is the degree of satisfaction that the person has with the person recommend Livelo?

DANIEL: The NPS, typical questions.

DANIEL: So we measure those two.

DANIEL: The one that I referred to, that we scored 80, and we were so happy about, was what we call NPS, redemption and fulfillment, meaning is the answer the person gives to us after the good has arrived at his or her home.

PAULA: Oh, wow.

DANIEL: So it’s a combination of the journey to redeem the goods and the time it took to receive the good and how it was.

DANIEL: Wasn’t it on time, without any kind of mistake, we all package it.

DANIEL: So it’s actually in this point, particularly, it’s a combination of what we do and what our partners do.

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: So this is a result, actually, this particular one, just to give a little bit of a specific, it’s a combination of the improvements we have done in our very own operations in the site and in the app.

DANIEL: But also the efforts we have been doing for our partners to increase service levels.

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: So right now we have, you know, this is something that has happened around the world because of the COVID pandemic, right?

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: The logistics networks got so strong that right now you ask for something, you know, at nine o’clock at night and in the morning, sometimes what you are asked is, you know, in your door.

DANIEL: Yeah.

DANIEL: So because of what we have done, because of what our partners have done, we are able to have a very good fulfillment in many categories.

DANIEL: And that’s why, that’s the reason that our, in this particular case, our NPS is so high.

DANIEL: We also have that for redeeming travel, flights or hotel stays, things like that is also high.

DANIEL: So it’s starting to get back, by the way, right?

DANIEL: So because of the moment we are living, we’re going through.

DANIEL: So in all of those transactions, we measure and we collect feedback, which is very rich because sometimes the feedback is so specific.

DANIEL: Like when I pressed that button, something didn’t happen.

DANIEL: And we can take it and go backwards in our process to do a specific corrective measures that will tackle that specific problem very clearly, very, you know, very on top of it.

PAULA: Yes, yes.

DANIEL: Very effectively, right?

DANIEL: So by turning this wheel many times and by taking every time what is more relevant in the group of feedbacks we have, we have been able to increase our journeys gradually, tackling the most important problems first and then the second, so on and so forth, so that we have been able to increase in, as I told you, in 20 or even 25 points in some specific journeys.

DANIEL: So we have it by journey.

DANIEL: We have it also by channel.

DANIEL: So we have the NPS on our app, the NPS for our website, the NPS for our customer assistance, in voice, in WhatsApp, automatic response.

DANIEL: So we do that in many different aspects, in very different elements or cuts of our business so that we can have specific measures to ameliorate everything.

PAULA: Like I have so many things to pick up on Daniel, so thank you for that.

PAULA: This is why I love this opening question because it creates the opportunity just to showcase and educate ourselves immediately with something super inspirational.

PAULA: So that really is extraordinary work.

PAULA: So thank you for that.

PAULA: It’s really beautiful.

PAULA: Yeah, great.

DANIEL: And if I may, there is one thing that is very important on that.

PAULA: Yes, please.

DANIEL: Everything that I mentioned to you, the CEO on a monthly basis is taking a look of how we are progressing on that.

DANIEL: So the sponsorship for such effort is very important.

DANIEL: We have people that are, let’s say the orchestrators of those efforts, but it depends on so many other people at the company that if you don’t have a kind of horizontal support and you have a senior sponsorship, that do not happen.

DANIEL: So that’s very important for us to be able to progress as we have been progressing.

DANIEL: And that would be definitely a recommendation for your listeners.

DANIEL: You know, guarantee, ensure senior sponsorship for those kinds of efforts.

PAULA: Absolutely, yeah.

PAULA: And follow it back, because I think one of the biggest criticisms of NPS, because again, no metric is perfect and nothing in life is perfect, but a lot of people say it’s too simple and it’s flawed and you know, there’s lots of people challenging it.

PAULA: But in my experience, it’s because they’re not having the action plan that you talked about.

PAULA: They’re not then saying, okay, yeah, we’ve got senior sponsorship and we’ve identified where in the journey the issue arose and now we’re going back and retrofitting and fixing that.

PAULA: So absolutely.

PAULA: You know, I can see you’ve got, you know, all of the boxes ticked along the journey to make sure that you’re getting those extraordinary results.

DANIEL: Thank you.

DANIEL: I mean, exactly, we’re doing the best we can in that perspective.

DANIEL: And we have milestones, you know, have a lot of discipline.

DANIEL: So it’s about setting the goal, having the action plan, having the team and having discipline on the follow up.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: So this is what have been the elements of, those have been the elements of success for us so far.

PAULA: Well, we’re off to a great start, Daniel.

PAULA: And just before we leave NPS, or actually specifically Redemption as a journey, because so many times on this show, we’ve talked about, that’s the moment of truth, so everything else could work perfectly.

PAULA: But if that piece fails, actually, you’ve probably damaged the customer’s loyalty.

PAULA: So I agree it deserves its own NPS.

PAULA: And I won’t name the brand, but I was researching some FMCG loyalty programs recently in North America.

PAULA: And the fulfillment in the fine print, because again, as professionals, we go and look for what’s going on.

PAULA: The fulfillment for a reward for this particular, and I mean, it’s one of the biggest companies in the world, was quoted at between five and six weeks for your reward.

PAULA: I was like, who’s going to wait five or six weeks for a leading brand?

PAULA: Anyway, I won’t rant too much about it.

PAULA: So back to Livelo, I have some favorite statistics that you told me from our last call.

PAULA: First of all, it’s your fifth year.

PAULA: So I think you’re just coming up to your fifth birthday.

PAULA: Am I right?

DANIEL: Yes, yes, it was just in June, just now.

PAULA: Oh, brilliant.

PAULA: Okay, well, happy birthday to Livelo.

PAULA: That’s super exciting.

PAULA: And the figures just again, because so many people like me have never looked at loyalty in Brazil and I know nothing about the country or the market, but really incredible.

PAULA: You have 25 million members, 180 strategic partners within the coalition program.

DANIEL: That’s correct.

PAULA: Yeah, and my favorite, you told me you have over 1 million SKUs in terms of redemption options for your members.

DANIEL: Yeah, as we do.

DANIEL: I mean, we have lots of partners that, from traveling agencies to companies that provide, let’s say delivery vouchers, for example, if you want to redeem a voucher to use when you request something for your house, you can redeem a voucher for companies like Uber, for example.

PAULA: Oh, nice, okay.

DANIEL: And make sure the name is no problem at all.

DANIEL: So yeah, we have a great variety.

DANIEL: You get to use to different kinds of needs.

DANIEL: So if you want to fulfill a dream to travel to some place that you love it, you can use the points for that.

DANIEL: If you have some very day by day kind of needs, you can use Livelo as well.

DANIEL: So if you want to redecorate your house, if you want to buy some new clothes, if you want to, whatever you want.

DANIEL: And what we do now is that we allow not only the goods and services to be obtained on the digital platform, but you have also moved to the physical world as well.

DANIEL: So right now, if you go to over 1.5 million establishments, commercial establishments or points of sales in different kinds, in Brazil, you can just redeem whatever you want, like a coffee, espresso.

DANIEL: If you want to redeem espresso, here’s your point, you can do that.

DANIEL: This is a very important jump for us because we want to be, it’s a coalition program.

DANIEL: One of our goals, I’m talking to you about engagement at the very beginning, right?

DANIEL: We want to be present in the life of our customers.

DANIEL: 24-7, 265 days a year for whatever kind of needs the person has.

DANIEL: So digital, it’s only part of our life in this aspect, right?

DANIEL: It has gained a lot of relevance because of the pandemic, but it is definitely just a part of it.

DANIEL: If you want to put some gas in the car, if you want to have an ice cream outdoors, have a coffee, or for any particular reason, you are just strolling on the streets and you want something, right now, within a certain network of partners we have, actually partners are the right word, within a group of companies, which have the machines of our partnering company, you can redeem the good or service using Livelo.

DANIEL: So one of these days, I was just walking with my kid and the dogs in the street and the kid said, you know, I would love an ice cream, I said, no problem at all.

DANIEL: I just stopped at the corner shop and I redeemed an ice cream with my points.

DANIEL: Using my app.

DANIEL: Yes.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: It’s the simplicity sometimes, really, isn’t it, Daniel, that really impresses and has the wow factor?

DANIEL: I love what you just said.

DANIEL: I mean, simplicity.

DANIEL: I don’t know who said, but simplicity is the ultimate luxury, right?

DANIEL: Yes.

DANIEL: So, and takes a lot of hard work to be simple.

PAULA: Totally.

PAULA: Totally.

DANIEL: Right, so this is something that I heard someone say that I just loved it.

DANIEL: We have to work really hard to embed all the complexity within Livelo so that it can provide all simplicity possible to our customers.

DANIEL: So that’s what we aim, and that’s exactly as you said.

DANIEL: I got into the store, I said, please, I would like to use ice cream.

DANIEL: How are we going to pay with Livelo?

PAULA: Wow.

DANIEL: And the person said, well, that was very new, by the way, it was a pilot phase.

DANIEL: How do I do that?

DANIEL: You just need to press this and this and that, and that’s fine.

DANIEL: I use my app, ready, two seconds ready.

DANIEL: So that was really, the experience was beautiful.

DANIEL: It was just great.

DANIEL: And it’s something that is ramping up right now as people are getting back to, let’s say something close to normal, right?

DANIEL: We hope that we will be back to normal very soon.

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: And we really, this is an important strategic pillar for us.

PAULA: Okay, yeah.

DANIEL: And we believe it’s going to ramp up very fast as things get back to normal.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: I think it’s an important learning as well, Daniel, because I’ve written a few times about, for example, say Starbucks as a world famous loyalty program.

PAULA: And the last big change that they made, the most obvious thing to me that I noticed was, again, the accessibility, I think, of rewards.

PAULA: So to your point around, geographically, first of all, it was right there, and the simplicity of it, and I guess the affordability of it, because I think it’s important not to have to wait six months or whatever to get a flight or whatever.

PAULA: So to get those micro rewards, I think that’s really, really something that customers love.

DANIEL: Again, it was spot on.

DANIEL: I mean, it’s very important that, as we say here, the accumulation and redemption wheel has to be turning very fast, right?

DANIEL: Yes.

DANIEL: It’s like money.

DANIEL: The more money you get, the more you are at ease to spend money, right?

PAULA: Totally.

DANIEL: So the easier it is for you to get points, the more at ease you are to redeem points.

DANIEL: And if you have small, as you said, micro rewards that you can have access to, it’s just brilliant.

DANIEL: So we do have that.

DANIEL: As I said, I mean, just an espresso.

PAULA: Yes.

DANIEL: It’s something that you can have with the points, but also small things like, for example, I don’t know, in Brazil, it’s very, something that is very popular is what we call the recharge for being able to use cellular phone.

DANIEL: So in the prepaid mode, you buy the recharge.

DANIEL: So you can also buy the recharge with the develop points.

DANIEL: So this is something that people use a lot.

DANIEL: We noticed that.

DANIEL: And in recent also released the cash back function.

DANIEL: So you can also have money deposited in your bank account, just making points, turning to money.

DANIEL: By the way, that’s the name that we have.

DANIEL: The translation is not very well, but in Portuguese sounds better.

DANIEL: I can assure you that.

DANIEL: You can redeem money using your points.

DANIEL: So you have a certain amount.

DANIEL: Using your app, you select the bank account, and it just make the points become money directly into your bank account.

DANIEL: And this is one of the smallest tickets, let’s put it this way, that we have for using points.

PAULA: I would guess, and I think that’s a fairly new innovation.

PAULA: Am I right, Daniel, from what you told me the last time?

DANIEL: Yes, yes, you are.

DANIEL: You are.

DANIEL: This was something that we launched by March this year, and the acceptance was just huge.

PAULA: I’m absolutely…

DANIEL: Just huge in many aspects.

PAULA: Yeah, because that’s the obvious question then is, exactly what’s the mix then of popularity of rewards?

PAULA: I suppose particularly get the pandemic has ultimately, obviously, delayed, let’s say, the travel redemptions, I’m guessing.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: So I’m guessing you’re seeing dramatic change, are you, in terms of what people are choosing to claim for?

DANIEL: Yes, we are.

DANIEL: When we are…

DANIEL: Before the pandemic, something close to 70% of the redemptions were related to the travel segment.

DANIEL: 70.

PAULA: That just proves the power of that category, my goodness.

DANIEL: Absolutely.

DANIEL: So it was about that.

DANIEL: We’re already observing a trend of the travel-related items decrease a little bit in relatively to, let’s call it non-travel elements.

DANIEL: We call it catalog, the retail kind of the items that can be redeemed in addition to traveling.

DANIEL: When the pandemic stroke us, everything that was related to traveling just went down to zero.

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: Nothing.

DANIEL: And we observed a switch to catalog items.

DANIEL: So electronics.

PAULA: Okay.

DANIEL: Many, many different things.

DANIEL: Yes.

DANIEL: Oh, absolutely.

DANIEL: Do it yourself or do it at home.

DANIEL: So from, yeah, from tools, from kits of, you know, tools to do something at home to…

DANIEL: Let me just think about this relation here.

DANIEL: It’s not like a pen, but we have something that was very popular, which is the something that allows you to fry items at home without electronic fryers.

PAULA: Yes.

DANIEL: Air fryers, air fryers.

DANIEL: Absolutely.

DANIEL: The air fryers were just a huge hit.

DANIEL: So many things like that just went, you know, the redemption rates of those items just went to the roof.

PAULA: Wow.

DANIEL: So we observed a very dramatic change for traveling to those kinds of items.

DANIEL: And we observing the strength of e-commerce at that point, and observing that change in catalog.

DANIEL: We actively also made a lot of promotions and moves to try to make people see, listen, Livelo is much more than traveling.

DANIEL: Just take a look at what we have for you.

DANIEL: So we designed specific collections like the home office collection, ergonomic chairs, computers, mouses, you know, mouse pad, all those things related to home office.

DANIEL: The master chef collection, so, you know, pans, cooking items, you know, all those kinds of things.

DANIEL: Gardening, right?

DANIEL: So all those sort of things, we made specific collections of items that could be redeemed with points given the moment we are all going through.

DANIEL: So in addition to collections, we did a specific promotion for those sort of items.

DANIEL: We increased the assortment on those specific items.

DANIEL: And that took a lot of space in our whole assortment.

DANIEL: The catalog items grew more than 100% over that period.

DANIEL: I’m talking about 150% growth on those specific items.

PAULA: Wonderful.

DANIEL: Both on the small tickets and on the big tickets, okay?

DANIEL: So I’m talking about refrigerators, and I’m talking about barbecue kits, were just like knives, were just huge heats as well.

DANIEL: Well, so those kinds of things, they grew a lot in terms of representation, the relevance they have in our redemption.

DANIEL: As a portfolio as a whole.

DANIEL: As we see traveling going back, that’s the interesting move we are observing now.

DANIEL: Catalog grew a lot, and as traveling is getting back, catalog is maintaining its absolute size.

DANIEL: Traveling goes high in relevance, relatively speaking, but catalog is still maintaining its strength, which means that new customers or customers that were already with Livelo got to learn that they can redeem for the sort of goods, and they are still doing it.

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: So this actually piled up on top of the traveling that came back as we are observing now, for example, in June, which means that we are probably going to get out of the pandemic with a healthier mix and with a stronger position than the one that we were prior to the pandemic.

PAULA: Wow.

DANIEL: So that was something that I owned the team, I mean, Rafa, you know, the people that are in our teams were so responsive to pivot many of the projects we were undertaking to those moments, to that moment and to those initiatives that were able to, let’s put it this way, surf the wave of the things that were coming to our direction in the pandemic.

DANIEL: So this is something that was amazing to see in the company.

PAULA: Yeah, it’s a pretty dramatic transformation, as you said.

DANIEL: It was, it was pretty dramatic.

DANIEL: We think that it’s going to come back different than what we was prior to the pandemic, but not necessarily as a complete change.

DANIEL: So traveling is still going to be very important.

DANIEL: Actually, many demands for traveling are actually just waiting for the moment to come back.

DANIEL: So we believe that the traveling, travel entertainment industry will suffer a huge increase once people can go back to fulfill their dreams for traveling and things like that.

DANIEL: So it’s still going to be very strong, but as a whole, the portfolio will show a different configuration, a different mix, which again, I believe it will be healthier for the company.

PAULA: I totally agree.

PAULA: And you used a word as well, Daniel, which I think we all need to remember, and it’s just to educate our members about our proposition.

PAULA: And I’d love to just ask you now, because you also mentioned another of my favorite tools, which is WhatsApp.

PAULA: And I know certainly in South America, I think particularly Brazil is perhaps the country in the world that maybe uses WhatsApp the most.

PAULA: It’s either, I think, Brazil or India are the two most dominant markets, I believe, using the WhatsApp platform.

PAULA: But the reason I’m asking, I suppose, in general is, was it a situation with this pivot that you mentioned, that it was outbound communications that you used to educate the members?

PAULA: Or was it purely that they were coming to the site and finding a different layout and a different proposition there?

PAULA: Or I guess a mix of both, but it’s the communications mix I’d love to get, because it’s a huge education job that you’ve managed to achieve.

DANIEL: Well, we actually used a lot of active communication on that, using different channels.

DANIEL: So social media, emails, SMS, the app itself, the push notifications.

DANIEL: So we used all that.

DANIEL: WhatsApp, actually, to your particular question, is something that we are growing now.

DANIEL: We know it’s a very relevant platform.

DANIEL: We need to use it, and we are actually scaling it up right now, and definitely want to use it.

DANIEL: Instagram was absolutely huge for us as well.

DANIEL: Very important.

DANIEL: So actually, we used lots of different digital channels, and we are experiencing with the ones, for example, Telegram is something that we have been experiencing now so far, you know, for a good degree of success.

DANIEL: So on that time, what we did was we intensified a lot of the communication, meaning the number of impacts that each person would receive.

DANIEL: And as you said, educational texts and messages.

DANIEL: So we actually built, for example, an entire series of educational videos on YouTube as well.

DANIEL: We’re talking about another channel, which was made exactly to teach customers or non-customers of what Livelo was about and what were the benefits of Livelo.

DANIEL: We actually had a campaign with a very famous figure in Brazil, in YouTube, which is a person that teaches about many different things.

DANIEL: So it’s called, the translation would be probably the world manual.

DANIEL: Like, it’s teaching about many different things for kids, particularly, but also for adults.

DANIEL: They just love it.

DANIEL: And we use this person to explain about Livelo.

DANIEL: So with the same language, with the same inquisitive spirit that the person has in the program that attracts so much attention, we also use it to explain Livelo in a very fun, simple communication, a very simple way to people.

DANIEL: That was really a great success in terms of impacts, in terms of time that each person would stay watching the videos.

DANIEL: So this is one of the efforts that I did to educate about, not only Livelo, but I got to tell you about the category, because you are very spot on.

DANIEL: I mean, the category, particularly in Brazil, is something that is not easy to understand.

PAULA: You mean loyalty programs in general?

DANIEL: Loyalty programs in general, loyalty programs in general, especially related to coalition programs.

DANIEL: You know what?

DANIEL: So not only Livelo, but many companies spend a lot of effort trying to explain the category to the public.

DANIEL: It’s something that you still need to do.

DANIEL: So the dis-educational efforts were very important.

DANIEL: Not only to talk about, listen, we also have those other items in addition to traveling, but also to say, listen, let me talk about what we do and why we can be good for you.

PAULA: Yeah, why bother?

PAULA: But it’s a good point actually, Daniel, because you’ve reminded me of some of the customer research we used to do on the first loyalty program I worked on.

PAULA: And this was always my frustration because we always got the same result back.

PAULA: And I wasn’t in charge of communications, unfortunately, but only a third of our customers ever even knew we had a loyalty program.

PAULA: So, and it’s unexpected, especially in telecoms, the industry I was in.

PAULA: So I’ve always been, I think, frustrated at how communications, how challenging it is to do it well, which is why I’m loving to hear the mix that you’ve got going on, because I think we’ve become over-reliant on email.

PAULA: And I, for one, I’m pretty jaded.

PAULA: And again, perhaps, you know, the pandemic has made me more so, but I do love video.

PAULA: I clearly love voice.

PAULA: I’m probably the only person in the world who doesn’t do Instagram, because I already feel a bit overwhelmed.

PAULA: But anyway.

DANIEL: I totally understand you.

PAULA: You can imagine.

PAULA: So I’m trying to do a few things well, but that’s a lovely communications mix.

PAULA: So interesting to see that evolving.

PAULA: And, sorry, just one final piece on WhatsApp again, just because I’m doing a bit of research on it at the moment.

PAULA: Are you generally using it more on the customer service side?

PAULA: Or is it being used partly in the redemption journey?

PAULA: Or what kind of areas of your member journey do you use that particular platform for?

DANIEL: We started in the customer assistance part.

DANIEL: We are now also using in parts of our redemption effort.

DANIEL: Like, for example, if the person has any kind of problem, can communicate via WhatsApp.

DANIEL: It’s customer assistance, but it’s related to the journey, to the redemption journey, okay?

DANIEL: So we want to do it more.

DANIEL: We want to expand the users.

DANIEL: And we are right now doing that.

DANIEL: So if we have this conversation, like six months from now, probably I’m going to be able to talk to you about many different users, because that’s the goal we have.

PAULA: Okay, great.

PAULA: Yeah, no, I was already thinking that in the back of my mind, Daniel.

PAULA: I’ll need to follow up with you now to make sure that I get the new story now and six or seven months time.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: The last, I suppose, Livelo question I really wanted to ask was just on a very practical note around.

PAULA: I know you started as a purely digital program, again, five years ago, and you mentioned obviously now the extraordinary scale and footprint that you have.

PAULA: Literally, it sounds like the whole of Brazil.

PAULA: So you’ve gone offline and you’ve gone into the physical world.

PAULA: So what kind of identifiers do your customers get?

PAULA: Is it just the app?

PAULA: Do you issue plastic cards?

PAULA: Or, for example, when I spoke to Pontus Colombia, they’re using the national identity card as a loyalty identifier, which was a very new idea for me.

PAULA: So I don’t know if that’s something that also works in Brazil, or what do you use as your loyalty identifiers?

DANIEL: At this point, well, for going, for example, offline, it is the app.

DANIEL: So the app is the way through to be able to redeem goods and services or accumulate points in the physical world.

DANIEL: But when you talk about the identifier, it’s a national ID.

DANIEL: It’s similar to the social security number.

DANIEL: It’s something that we use for the individual customers.

DANIEL: Yes, that’s what we use.

DANIEL: When you’re talking about physical item, like a credit card, right?

DANIEL: Something like this.

DANIEL: We don’t have it at this point.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: But why would you, is what I would be thinking.

PAULA: If you can have a commercial use of the National Identity Card, as in Colombia, I think that’s fabulous for the consumer.

PAULA: I don’t know other parts of the world, whether that would be allowed with all the legal, I can imagine it’s quite a complex thing to authorize, but it makes your job, I think, that much easier.

PAULA: You don’t have to issue something else.

DANIEL: Yes, we don’t need to.

DANIEL: For that particular purpose, you don’t need to.

DANIEL: If you would come, for example, to issue a card or something like this, it would be for a complimentary use, not for that.

DANIEL: But definitely for identification, as you said, nothing else in addition to the, let’s say, again, social security number, if I may, is needed.

DANIEL: Not at all, which makes things very simple.

PAULA: It does make things very simple.

PAULA: I’m very envious.

PAULA: So my final question on Livelo, and then I have one on your other topic, which I love, which we’re going to get into.

PAULA: But just what would you say, then, is the future focus for Livelo?

PAULA: Like, are there, you know, is there lots of innovation still required, I think, post-pandemic, or what are you focused on for the future to keep growing so successfully?

DANIEL: Well, definitely the expansion to the physical world is something that is doing its initial steps, right?

DANIEL: So we see it as a huge opportunity.

DANIEL: We need to do that.

DANIEL: And it makes our life much more complex because then we will become really omni-channel.

DANIEL: And we need to make sure that the journeys are seamless to our customers, regardless of which point of contact the person is using.

DANIEL: So this is something very relevant for us.

DANIEL: And as I said, it’s an strategic pillar.

DANIEL: Another strategic pillar that I can mention to you, we are putting efforts to develop a lot our customer relationship management capabilities, because you want to be as personal as we can in the communication of each one of our customers.

DANIEL: So I want to be able to write in the context, write in the moment with the specific message through the specific channel to that particular person, to be able to send a message that you resonate right spot on, on what the person is wanting or at that particular moment.

DANIEL: So personalization is something that we are still not at the point that you want.

DANIEL: So we are making lots of efforts to be able to do that.

DANIEL: Personalization drives loyalty.

PAULA: Of course.

DANIEL: Good experience drives loyalty.

DANIEL: So we are trying to make sure that you have all that to increase the degree of loyalty we have with our customers and therefore be able to provide that to our partners.

DANIEL: Another thing that we want to expand, we have different services that provide to companies wanting to use Livelo to increase their own value propositions.

DANIEL: So for example, if a company wants to provide Livelo points as a way to provide incentives to their sales force, they can do that.

DANIEL: So we want to expand our offerings to those companies so that we can increase our ecosystem, our network.

DANIEL: The loyalty, the coalition is a network business.

DANIEL: So the larger the number of members of that network, the stronger the network and the higher the value for each individual participant of the network.

DANIEL: So I want to keep on expanding that.

DANIEL: And we want to expand quite a lot the services in particular regards to possibilities to accumulate points.

DANIEL: So definitely needs to increase, especially considering the boom of e-commerce, the marketplaces, things like that.

DANIEL: We see an opportunity there that we’re wanting to explore.

DANIEL: And also the financial services.

DANIEL: We definitely see, I talked to you about cash back, right?

DANIEL: So you want to explore more opportunities on the financial services to be able to increase, again, our ecosystem.

DANIEL: So those are avenues that we’re tackling and that we are doing everything at the same time.

PAULA: Oh my goodness.

DANIEL: But those are things that we aim at the end.

DANIEL: And that’s why I talked to you about engagement.

DANIEL: At the end, we’re thinking about increasing the level of engagements our customers have with us and increasing the network so that it can be stronger and provide more value to the customers and to our partnering companies.

PAULA: Yeah, makes perfect sense, Daniel.

PAULA: And I will definitely say I particularly like the, I think it’s called B2E, business to employee, or the rewarding staff, because obviously then what happens as a, well, first of all, you’re solving a pain point for companies who need a mechanic.

PAULA: And so I think that’s super nice.

PAULA: But also then they’ll be marketing your program to their employees.

DANIEL: Absolutely.

PAULA: Which is genius, you know, you get that upside, yeah.

DANIEL: What I say is that they bring customers, individual customers for us on books, right?

DANIEL: So, and that’s what they do, on mass, right?

DANIEL: So what they do is that they help us increase our network in a very, with large steps.

DANIEL: And then we-

PAULA: Yeah, yeah, super powerful, wonderful.

DANIEL: So we build this sort of virtual circle or spiral to grow our business.

PAULA: Absolutely, yeah, brilliant.

PAULA: So the final piece then, Daniel, again, just having a look at your LinkedIn, and you’ve already mentioned financial services.

PAULA: I saw this other beautiful idea, which I really love, a company called Tindin.

PAULA: I hope I’m pronouncing that correctly.

DANIEL: Yes, perfectly.

PAULA: Great, I don’t speak Portuguese, I think I said to you.

PAULA: But Tindin looks like a really beautiful concept in the fintech space based on gamification that I know that you’re advising and investing in.

PAULA: So I’d love you to tell listeners all about Tindin.

DANIEL: Thank you for that.

DANIEL: I love to talk about this.

DANIEL: I mean, Tindin is a platform to provide financial education for children.

DANIEL: So the purpose of Tindin, of its founder, was to, as he said, democratize financial education, right?

DANIEL: Considering that the lack of financial education in adults actually is something that is an obstacle for a person to leverage the money they have and to gain prosperity in their homes and fulfill their dreams and things like that.

DANIEL: So when you start in an early age, you provide the basis for the person to be able to take care of his or herself and make sure that doesn’t fall into any kind of financial distress, but more than that, to be able to, again, prosper through life.

DANIEL: So what they do is that Team Dean created through an app initially, a platform that would, with gamification, for example, provide a depend control for kids.

DANIEL: So, for example, let’s suppose that there is a monthly depend for a kid.

DANIEL: With that particular app, the father or the mother, the parents will be able to say, OK, listen, you have five tasks to accomplish, right?

DANIEL: You have to make her bed, you have to help me put the trash out, you have to cut the grass, whatever.

DANIEL: When you do that, you will be able to receive your money.

DANIEL: So what they do is that the app will say, make her bed, the app will say, cut the grass, something like this, and then the kid will be eligible to the money.

DANIEL: But more than this, the kid can establish a goal.

DANIEL: OK, I want to buy a soccer ball, right?

DANIEL: So I want to buy a soccer ball with my money.

DANIEL: OK, so how much is the soccer ball?

DANIEL: I don’t know, it’s 10, 10 something, right?

DANIEL: And how much is your STP?

DANIEL: 2, 2, OK, so I need 5 weeks or 5 months to get there.

DANIEL: So the person will track the progress towards that goal.

DANIEL: So it teaches children how to save, how to think about the future.

PAULA: Yeah.

DANIEL: Right?

DANIEL: So this is the sort of things that they do.

DANIEL: And recently Tindin struck a very nice contract with one of the largest educational groups in Brazil to provide financial education content for the schools, for the primary schools of those of that company, of that large conglomerate.

DANIEL: So right now they started as a B2C company.

DANIEL: So then after I joined, I said, listen, we can think about other kinds of growth avenues.

DANIEL: And all of a sudden they stroke this contract that now via schools, they provide content and they also provide the platform, the financial education platform for the students through the schools.

DANIEL: So they have been growing, fortunately, quite a lot.

DANIEL: And the fulfillment feeling is so rewarding because I’ve seen some videos recently.

DANIEL: There was an experience with a government-owned school in a city in Sao Paulo, the city where I live, that they provided the financial education material to kids and they were observing some aspects related to the development of the kid, how they would retain the knowledge of things like that.

DANIEL: And there was some videos about the kids talking about what they learned and talking about how they are applying it.

DANIEL: And it’s just so beautiful.

DANIEL: I tell you, you want to cry because what I talk to you about, they are thinking about the future and saying, listen, I wanted to buy, I don’t know, a mouse, a very funky mouse for my computer, right?

DANIEL: So I wanted to buy that.

DANIEL: I had no money.

DANIEL: So I decided to establish a goal.

DANIEL: And people ask questions like, okay, so how did you, why did you, how did you save money?

DANIEL: Because, you know, why didn’t you save before?

DANIEL: And you would say something like, before that, I didn’t have that particular goal.

DANIEL: And I would spend some money buying, I don’t know, candy or something like that.

DANIEL: After I established the goal, I noticed that the more I would save, the sooner I would have the goal.

DANIEL: That’s beautiful, isn’t it?

PAULA: It’s extraordinary.

DANIEL: It’s extraordinary.

DANIEL: So that’s something that’s very, very rewarding.

DANIEL: So I’m very happy that my path crossed with the founder of Tindin.

DANIEL: I was actually the first investor on Tindin.

PAULA: Brilliant.

DANIEL: And I became a mentor since then.

DANIEL: And right now we are six investors there.

DANIEL: They have received lots of.

DANIEL: Yes, thank you.

PAULA: Yes.

DANIEL: So right now they are in a different stage.

DANIEL: So I’m very happy.

DANIEL: Very happy with what’s happening, not only for the company, but more than this, for the fact that they are able to increase the reach of their mission.

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: And they have a purpose.

PAULA: And I always do believe, you know, like again, especially in the loyalty business, we know how to help incentivize, you know, desirable behavior change and to use it for a higher purpose, like you are doing with Tindin is absolutely beautiful.

PAULA: So I’ll certainly make sure then, Daniel, in the show notes, as well as everything for Livelo, everything for you personally, we’ll make sure to link to Tindin as well, because I’m sure there’s a lot of parents that are listening that will be very excited to learn how it goes.

PAULA: And I’m sure you have global ambition around that one.

DANIEL: Absolutely.

DANIEL: Why not?

PAULA: Why not?

PAULA: Why not?

PAULA: So that’s it from my side.

PAULA: Daniel, is there anything else that you wanted to mention before we wrap up?

DANIEL: No, thank you.

DANIEL: I’d just like to thank you so much for this quite, you know, informal and pleasant conversation.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: Great.

PAULA: Well, listen, Daniel, it’s been an absolute joy.

PAULA: Love the work that you’re doing.

PAULA: And yeah, very excited to have you, have had you on the show.

PAULA: Look forward to hopefully another one.

PAULA: I want to say thank you to our friends in Comarch for introducing us.

PAULA: And with that, I want to say, Daniel Pagano, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

DANIEL: Thank you.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.

PAULA: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.

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