#647:Loyalty in the Age of the Emotional Consumer – Insights from Kate Wheaton, Ogilvy One

PAULA: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

PAULA: Today’s episode is hosted by Charlie Hills, Chief Strategy Officer of MandoConnect, a UK based agency that uses smart data to create brilliant partnerships and rewards that really work.

PAULA: Enjoy.

CHARLIE: Hello, and welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

CHARLIE: As Paula mentioned, I’m Charlie Hills, the Chief Strategy Officer of MandoConnect.

CHARLIE: In this episode, I am delighted to interview Kate Wheaton, the Head of Strategy for Ogilvy One.

CHARLIE: Through her long career, Kate has worked on some of the UK’s most effective and loved loyalty programs for brands such as Sainsbury’s, Tesco’s, Boots, Vodafone, British Airways, Waterstones and Pets at Home.

CHARLIE: She enjoys the combination of strategic rigor and creativity that modern loyalty demands to be so successful.

CHARLIE: Today we’re going to be learning about her favourite book and loyalty programs, highlights and key learnings from the programs she’s worked on, and all about the new loyalty white paper from Ogilvy One called Loyalty in the Age of the Emotional Consumer.

CHARLIE: I really hope you enjoy our conversation today.

CHARLIE: So hello, and welcome to the podcast today.

CHARLIE: I’m absolutely delighted to have you on the show.

KATE: I’m really happy to be here, Charlie.

KATE: It’s a great pleasure.

CHARLIE: So cool.

CHARLIE: And it’s such a great piece of research that we’re gonna talk about today and some brilliant programmes that you’ve worked on.

CHARLIE: But before we get into all of that, I’ve got to start off with Paula’s favourite question.

CHARLIE: And it’s a new one for 2025.

CHARLIE: So it still feels really funny asking it.

CHARLIE: But before we get into the world of Just Loyalty, what’s your favourite book on life, leadership or loyalty, Kate?

KATE: I’m going to be a bit boring and I actually picked Loyalty one.

KATE: So more of a kind of work-oriented one.

CHARLIE: On topic, we love it.

CHARLIE: That’s great.

KATE: And it’s a book I and certainly some of my colleagues have referred to a lot in sort of shaping our thinking about loyalty.

KATE: And it’s The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath.

KATE: And I think it’s sort of very simply but quite efficiently makes the case that loyalty in its many senses of the world is really built through what a brand does at particular moments, really kind of key opportunities where a brand has to create a disproportional impact.

KATE: And they make the case obviously that that builds incredibly strong memory structures and therefore very strong emotional sort of enduring bonds to a brand.

KATE: I think what I like about the book, obviously the general premise I think is really important, but it’s really practical and it sort of gives you, firstly it sort of defines what those opportunities are in a very lucid way that you kind of start to thinking about whatever brand or category you’re operating in, where might those moments be across the customer’s experience through their whole life cycle potentially with you.

KATE: And then it really decodes how you brands can effectively respond to them.

KATE: So it’s like a total primer and incredibly useful on that basis, I think.

KATE: I love a kind of business book that gives you very practical things to use afterwards, a great investment in time.

KATE: And I think that book in particular is really relevant to the sort of the findings from the study that we made, which is really about how brands need to really cultivate that emotional impact, appealing to the heart, not just to the head.

KATE: And I think the important thing there is it’s both.

KATE: It’s not just one or the other.

KATE: You kind of need to do both.

CHARLIE: Oh, that’s nice.

CHARLIE: And that’s a lovely segue from the kind of the book into the research that we’re going to talk about.

CHARLIE: And we’re building such a brilliant library recommendation through this question, actually.

CHARLIE: It’s fantastic.

CHARLIE: And I’ve seen you use that book, actually, in the client work as well.

CHARLIE: So it’s really lovely to see.

CHARLIE: I’m all about actionable insight.

CHARLIE: And I love that, actually, you’ve got that theory and that it’s translated into practice.

CHARLIE: So yeah, one I highly, highly recommend.

CHARLIE: Which brings us on nicely to your favourite loyalty programme.

CHARLIE: I know you’ve worked on many, many programmes over your career.

CHARLIE: Any stood out or any you haven’t worked on that are your kind of favourites and why?

KATE: I’m picking one particular one, but for two reasons.

KATE: And only past programmes.

KATE: So I’ve worked recently on Nectar with Sainsbury’s.

KATE: I’ve worked with them in the past as well.

KATE: So I’ve had a couple of bites at that particular cherry.

KATE: But I think in light of what we just talked about, the importance of emotional impact, I particularly like a thing Nectar do, which is called the Grapefruit and Veg Challenge.

KATE: Now they only run it once a year, but for a period of time.

KATE: But I think what it does is, Nectar is a very typical supermarket loyalty programme.

KATE: Everyone knows it.

KATE: It’s effective at what it does.

KATE: But I think what the Grapefruit and Veg Challenge does very effectively and in a way that is sort of slightly more elevated than the general Nectar programme is that it sort of rewards you for being a good human.

KATE: And for once, it’s about being more healthy for thinking about yourself and how you’re feeding your family.

KATE: And I think that in itself does create a sort of sense of virtue and sort of fulfilment and achievement that ticks all of those emotional boxes I’ve been talking about.

KATE: It’s a mistake to think that emotional things are only created out of gifts or surprise and delight and things.

KATE: Those can be lovely, but there are lots of emotional sort of buttons that you can press with consumers.

KATE: And I think everything from sort of mastery to achievement are all really important.

KATE: And I think what Nectar have also done well is actually make the experience itself so that the interaction you have with the program via the app, it’s quite fun.

KATE: It’s a little bit more gamified, it uses fun graphics, it’s got a kind of challenge element to it.

KATE: So you’re always trying to do a little bit more.

KATE: And yeah, okay, fundamentally, it rewards you with Nectar points.

KATE: But again, that fits with your familiar kind of, the things you have familiar already absorbed.

KATE: So I think, I do think that’s a nice example of a little way of building some of those emotional peaks into people’s experience.

KATE: And I think that’s a good one.

KATE: So that’s the one I was going to pick.

CHARLIE: And it’s a great moment as well, linked to the book, I think it is.

CHARLIE: It’s a really lovely example of a loyalty program, building a proposition within the program, owning it and then repeating it and improving it every year.

KATE: And also, I’m passionate about health and eating well and that sort of thing.

KATE: So it happens to work for me.

KATE: So it is a personal delight.

KATE: I get quite a kick out of, God, I eat a lot of fruit and vegetables.

KATE: I’m so good.

KATE: You know, a little halo.

CHARLIE: Very important.

CHARLIE: Very important.

CHARLIE: Yeah.

CHARLIE: And you know, from my point of view, I really like as well that it’s got that challenge culture to it as well.

CHARLIE: And that they’re innovating it every year and they’re bringing it on and they make it a little bit better.

CHARLIE: And we’ve seen nearly all the big programs bring that in.

CHARLIE: And that was one of the first, I think, to start to build the proposition.

CHARLIE: So, no, that’s a brilliant answer.

CHARLIE: And really nice to see a big kind of iconic program inventing something new as well.

CHARLIE: Sometimes, I think, we sort of we forget that the big players can do that big invention as well.

CHARLIE: We’re always looking to the small.

CHARLIE: Very much so.

CHARLIE: So, it’s a great example.

KATE: I think it’s also just an example that, you know, what you do in a program, obviously, there need to be some fixed elements that are long term and enduring.

KATE: But I think brands need to have, and this is obviously something we found in the study, that brands need to have confidence to have some fun with the program.

KATE: And so, if that’s appropriate, obviously, it’s not for everything.

KATE: But, you know, to be prepared to try new things, and they don’t have to be things you sort of commit to forever.

KATE: Consumers are very adept at assimilating things and then moving on.

KATE: That’s what we do at all the time.

KATE: We’re a very adaptive species.

KATE: And so, I kind of go, yeah, we should do more of this.

KATE: And again, this is something that came up in the study we did, that the importance of constantly fueling a program with fresh new things is quite important.

CHARLIE: Yeah, I think that’s really key as well, particularly in the British market, because everyone’s so savvy in Britain, aren’t they, about what loyalty programs are up to, and they can compare one grocery program to another grocery program.

CHARLIE: So, yeah, I think that’s really key.

CHARLIE: I mean, you’ve worked in loyalty marketing for a long time.

CHARLIE: You’ve worked on some of the biggest programs, I think, any one of us have ever heard of in Britain across, you know, so many different sectors.

CHARLIE: I’m sure our audience probably don’t know your bio as well as I do.

CHARLIE: Do you want to tell us a little bit about your background in loyalty marketing and what you particularly enjoy about it?

CHARLIE: What’s kept you here?

KATE: Well, I was lucky enough to sort of start my career proper at EHS, which of course was, as I always remind people, the place where ClubCard was actually invented.

CHARLIE: Really?

KATE: Yes.

KATE: Yeah.

KATE: Yeah.

KATE: We took it first to Sainsbury.

KATE: Well, we, I didn’t.

KATE: The team, Terry Hunt, those guys, took it to, I think, Sainsbury’s first, who dismissed it and said we don’t want that.

KATE: That’s just Green Shield stamps all over again electronically.

KATE: Then they took it to Tesco and then Don Humby were bought on board and obviously bought the acceleration into the program that it really needed.

KATE: But yeah, I remember stuffing envelopes when in the office for the 12 store pilot that we did initially.

KATE: That was absolutely ages ago.

KATE: But I didn’t actually work on ClubCard until later on.

KATE: But I started my career at EHS where because of ClubCard, we built a strong reputation for understanding Loyalty, having a particular view on it, which was very successful and really the success of the agency was predicated for a period of time on the sort of learnings and reputation that was created through ClubCard.

KATE: Then I moved to TMW Unlimited, which was an independent at the time, so slightly different.

KATE: Obviously, EHS has become Havas now, it was always owned by Havas as is now.

KATE: Then I came to Ogilvy.

KATE: I’ve only really worked in three places over a very long period of time.

KATE: I’m very loyal.

CHARLIE: What three, right?

KATE: I practice what I preach, which is that I like to see things through and I like to build teams and kind of create something that has some last, really.

CHARLIE: Yeah.

CHARLIE: When you really know your stuff as well, I think that really shows in all the project work that we’ve ever done with you, that depth of brand insight, but also that depth of kind of sector and industry insight as well.

CHARLIE: What about all those programs you’ve worked on?

CHARLIE: You’ve dropped a few names as you’ve gone through, but please tell us about the best ones or the worst ones.

KATE: Well, I couldn’t possibly drop anyone in it.

KATE: I think picking up on the second part of your question, what I really like about Loyalty is one place where creativity and deep numeracy and business thinking need to come together.

KATE: In a very immediate way, you’re really looking at direct impact on behavior as well as longer term metrics and business casing and that kind of thing.

KATE: But it’s one of the few places where you really see the full gamut of what strategists like us, so yes, understanding loyalty, but also understanding brands, understanding customers, understanding technology and data, all of those things have to come together effectively to deliver a good modern loyalty program, well, effective modern loyalty program.

KATE: Got the programs, I did have to have a think about this because it goes back a long way.

KATE: So in retail, sort of big retail, I’ve worked on Nectar Tesco, Club Card, Boots Advantage for a period of time, Morrison’s More Card and currently Pets at Home, so the big five, I think.

KATE: Specialist retail, I did some work years ago for Waterstones, that program still exists, I’m very proud to say.

KATE: Not quite in the same way that we created it, but it’s still there.

CHARLIE: I love that program.

CHARLIE: I’ve got two teenage boys and we’ve got a Waterstones and I love going in.

CHARLIE: I buy my books there rather than Amazon because of that program.

CHARLIE: It’s fantastic.

CHARLIE: That’s interesting.

KATE: And I’ve done a little bit of work in fashion, which I’ll touch on later.

KATE: Gosh, many moons ago and then sort of more recently Vodafone, so when they first went into Loyalty years ago, partnering with Airmiles, oddly enough, and then later, obviously, the partnership we did with you guys on Very Me program.

KATE: I’ve done a little bit in financial services, so AA, Compare the Market, and a little bit in travels, IHG, BA, and things like that.

KATE: So a really broad range, but my really deep experience is in retail, to be quite honest.

KATE: And I think beyond that, I’ve done a lot of work with brands where, if you like, loyalty is the desired outcome, but it’s not about a program.

KATE: It’s about products or experience or just general strategies that deliver high levels of retention and brand preference.

KATE: So a program is not the answer to everything.

KATE: It’s a good answer to lots of things, but it depends where you’re at as a brand and as a business.

CHARLIE: I think that’s what’s so wonderful and why I really enjoy working with Ogilvy and Ogilvy One on these types of projects.

CHARLIE: Bidikis, is that recognition that loyalty is more than a program?

CHARLIE: I think sometimes the platform providers or particular suppliers can take a very narrow view of what loyalty is.

CHARLIE: To a lot of people, loyalty is a points program.

CHARLIE: So even changing up that mechanic can be redefining in terms of the definition of it.

CHARLIE: So yeah, I think it’s really important.

CHARLIE: I think the industry is catching up actually.

CHARLIE: I think people recognize that it is more than the program.

CHARLIE: It’s how you activate it, but also your brand experience.

CHARLIE: Do any of the programs that you’ve worked on really sort of stand out for you?

CHARLIE: Any that you think, wow, that one really sets it apart from the rest, and everyone should learn this from this program?

KATE: I have to, I think Tesco Club Card, I worked on Club Card back in the late 2000s for about five years.

KATE: And I think what Tesco have is that absolute willingness to evolve and to innovate.

KATE: And the sort of, what I found at that time, and I hope it’s the same now, it probably is, is that the kind of, the knowledge, the depth of knowledge, and the Club Card gave them, through the data and the insight that came with it, really fueled their understanding of the customer.

KATE: And it enabled them to sort of create an entire sort of language around the customer that the whole business used and understood, which gave them really strong focus and an ability to sort of knit things together really meaningfully.

KATE: And I think the other thing that I really admired about Tesco was about their decision making.

KATE: I remember back in sort of 2009, probably 2008, 2009, around the last big financial crash, where there was a lot of impact on people’s ability to spend, affordability all changed.

KATE: And at the time, there was a sort of very quick focus around, what can we do to lessen the burden on customers, but also to improve their loyalty to our business.

KATE: So we retain more of them and continue to grow their value to us.

KATE: And very swiftly, you sort of look at lots of scenarios, but so fast, they just got the view that the thing that was going to have the biggest impact and the biggest reach, they weren’t scared.

KATE: That’s my point.

KATE: They weren’t like, let’s tiptoe it is, they’re like, what’s going to have the biggest impact?

KATE: Double points.

KATE: Right.

KATE: We will double the value.

KATE: That’s a big investment for them.

KATE: It’s not a little thing to do, big investment, but they were really confident that it would pay back.

KATE: And they made the decision so fast to do that.

KATE: Back then, they obviously have now bought it back again.

KATE: I think, again, there’s that sort of view that actually we really want to impact our customers quickly.

KATE: This is what the sort of big change we need to make.

KATE: Of course, they were the first to do club pricing, not universally, it’s been done in lots of other countries beforehand, but I think they have that sort of instinct about what’s going to work and what’s going to work for customers.

KATE: They do a lot of research as well, so it’s well-informed, and they have a lot of data, so it’s not guesswork.

KATE: But I think they don’t overburden themselves with fear about things.

CHARLIE: They go all in.

CHARLIE: I always think that whenever we’re looking, we do a lot of market reviews in the engine room at Manda, and we’re always looking at what programs are doing.

CHARLIE: And I think one of my observations is that while others test, pilot, tweak, sort of dip their toe in the water, Tesco’s are always the one that go all out, you know?

CHARLIE: They’ve got their Club Card Plus, and it worked really well.

CHARLIE: They launched member pricing, and you can’t turn around in the store without seeing it.

CHARLIE: I really admire it.

CHARLIE: They’ve launched Tesco Club Card challenges.

CHARLIE: One of the first things they were actually slightly behind the market on, but then they’ve brought that Tesco flavor to it, and they’ve done it really effectively with the kind of wrap-ups and things.

CHARLIE: So yeah, I think they are always one to admire.

CHARLIE: We quite often talk to our clients as well, like if it works for Tesco’s, it’s worth investigating for you.

CHARLIE: Totally agree.

CHARLIE: We know the rigor of their decision-making, but interesting to learn about their speed and their bravery as well.

KATE: I don’t know if it’s the same now, certainly back when I worked on it.

KATE: They did a lot of evaluation and lots of digging deep into.

KATE: I remember doing a big piece with Dunn-Humby on the economics and performance of Club Card.

KATE: That wasn’t a small piece of work, it was quite a deep thing, and I know they’ve done that before.

KATE: But actually, I think once they’ve worked things out, they tend to move quite quickly.

KATE: I think the other example I’d like to draw on is really about how brands can dial up their distinctiveness.

KATE: I did some work two years ago on a fashion brand, quite high fashion designer brand, really well known for its iconic imagery and quite out there stance on things.

KATE: They were looking at the development of a program, so we were involved in the development of that proposition and what it could look like.

KATE: And we did some research with consumers who were heavily into fashion, we called them tastemakers, because not only are they heavily into fashion, they’re the ones that also influence other people.

KATE: So we went to one of the usual sort of gamut of potential benefits we could offer and everything, all sorts of things, you know, from the most basic sort of discounts and that sort of thing, through to quite interesting things from going back into their archive and remaking things and that sort of stuff.

KATE: But we missed one really important thing, and it was more of a co-creation kind of workshop type research.

KATE: And what we completely missed was that all of the people who are going to be influential to others are now creators.

KATE: And what they really liked about that brand was that what they wanted from that brand was to understand and learn the skills of how you make iconic imagery and film.

CHARLIE: Wow.

KATE: So actually, the best possible thing we could offer them was the chance to come on a shoot or the chance to be with a stylist or the chance to work with a photographer or to see an advert being made.

KATE: Now, I sort of say it’s like bloody obvious.

KATE: It’s completely obvious, right?

KATE: But at the time, and it just showed me, rather than dig into always the well of loyalty type program type thinking, you also need to dig into the brand and what it stands for.

KATE: And therefore what it could open up for you, rather than the usual stuff that you kind of run through.

KATE: So for me, that was a really interesting sort of, I mean, I think the learning of skills is quite an interesting area.

KATE: I know Sampson has done some stuff about that with photography.

KATE: Obviously Sephora do it quite a lot with beauty and using makeup.

KATE: And I kind of feel there are pockets of that sort of thing happening.

KATE: I think it’s really interesting, particularly for that Gen Z audience who are all about the skills acquisition and making and creating.

KATE: So I think that was a nice thing.

CHARLIE: I love that example on so many levels.

CHARLIE: I know the fashion brand you’re talking about.

CHARLIE: Obviously, I’m not going to reveal who it is.

CHARLIE: But it’s, you know, that was such a fantastic project to watch, you know, in development from the sidelines.

CHARLIE: And then, yeah, exactly, that kind of skill development and being really true to the brand is really key.

CHARLIE: I’d also recommend checking out Canon Club as well, who have a very similar kind of brand-appropriate, you know, only Canon could type development.

CHARLIE: That’s an awesome example.

CHARLIE: Are there any other sort of big innovations you’ve seen recently or anything else that really sort of stands out or that you’ve really admired?

CHARLIE: And then we will get on to talk about the research, I promise, for everyone who is listening.

KATE: Two brands, I think, do a really good job.

KATE: H&M, I love the way they’ve sort of done breaking down behavior into lots of different things.

KATE: So you get rewarded for lots of different things across everything from recycling through to whatever liking.

KATE: And I think that sounds really easy to you.

KATE: It’s actually quite hard to do.

CHARLIE: Yeah, it is, especially across the number of markets they’ve got on there.

CHARLIE: However many hundreds of millions of members they’ve got globally.

KATE: They’re good for them.

KATE: And the other example is a bit different.

KATE: I think Amex are really clever.

KATE: I mean, they always had, they sort of, I think with their rewards program specifically, they dug into the brand initially and thought very much about it’s about elevated experience.

KATE: Now we’re Amex, we’re exclusive, we make things more premium.

KATE: And so I think they always did really well on those sort of extraordinary experiences around travel and, you know, sorts of things that they could offer people.

KATE: But I think in the pandemic and cost of living crisis specifically, they really shifted the, you know, shifted the needle and kind of went, and we actually have to really double down on how people can use their points on a day to day basis, which is not rocket science at all.

KATE: But I just think they’ve been so smart in the way they’ve done it with pay with points.

KATE: I can’t remember if they had new part pay, you can backdate it from your Amex bill, the Amazon pay with points, Amex points.

KATE: I mean, it’s, they’ve completely dug into the sort of whole ecosystem of how you might use your points on a day to day basis and done it incredibly well.

KATE: So credit to them.

KATE: I think they’ve recognized that emotional and rational things have to be delivered.

KATE: And the speed with which they got there as the climate changed, obviously, was admirable that they’ve really done well.

CHARLIE: Well, they’ve really avoided the pitfall of the hotel and airline industry.

CHARLIE: It’s held up for years as the icon of kind of loyalty programs.

CHARLIE: And the big problem there is obviously lifestyles have changed, patterns have changed, and now people can’t engage or use their points in the way they always used to.

CHARLIE: So, yeah, that’s a really good example of them being ahead, whereas some others have been behind.

CHARLIE: Although we’re all looking forward to seeing what happens now that BA have made all those big changes in there.

CHARLIE: Yeah, that’s going to be a controversial one, but we won’t get into that now.

CHARLIE: One of the big things Ogilvy is famous for is thought leadership.

CHARLIE: And I think, you know, I remember almost growing up reading Ogilvy thought leadership and about bonds and loyalty, and some really kind of brilliant thinking that’s come out of the agency.

CHARLIE: So it was really exciting this year to see a white paper come out.

CHARLIE: And I’m going to make sure I get the title right.

CHARLIE: The new white paper is called Loyalty in the Age of the Emotional Consumer.

CHARLIE: And before we get into the contents of the paper, it’s going to be really interesting.

CHARLIE: What prompted this?

CHARLIE: It’s been a while since Ogilvy’s published.

CHARLIE: What prompted it?

CHARLIE: And what sort of method did you take to it?

CHARLIE: Because I think it was quite a different approach.

KATE: I think the sort of simple answer is we were relaunching Ogilvy One with CRM Loyalty as a key part of the offering and we wanted to draw attention to it.

KATE: So we thought that actually, loyalty is a mature category now.

KATE: Having a program is no guarantee of success.

KATE: It used to be that you could probably get so far on just having a program to give you a little bit of competitive advantage.

KATE: But if that’s table stakes, I think you really have to think a bit harder about how you’re leveraging that and the impact it’s having.

KATE: So we thought it was a good time to go back into that, to understand what was driving things, what was shaping what the future of loyalty is going to look like.

KATE: And we decided to talk to practitioners on the basis that they are also close to consumers, their customers in particular, and kind of have really understood what they’re looking for and are a good reflection of that.

KATE: So, and I think sometimes with practitioners, you also get the business view.

KATE: And some of the learnings I think are sometimes more useful to other practitioners.

KATE: I mean, for us, this was very much, there’s a lot of information out there about how consumers feel about loyalty.

KATE: I mean, Amanda, you guys do a great report every year, which we shamelessly use with our clients.

CHARLIE: Love it, feel free.

KATE: And that does a good job, I think, of covering a lot of the, a general barometer of how consumers are feeling about loyalty programs.

KATE: But I think sometimes for practitioners and potential kind of people that are thinking about going into the loyalty, thinking about whether their program needs to change or evolve, be rebooted, whatever it is, it’s nice to hear from other experts like you and to know what’s keeping them awake.

KATE: And also to get that sense of like, we’re not alone, we are a community.

KATE: I know we don’t always behave like it, but I think it’s important to recognize that it is a small, relatively small bunch of people who have got these sort of experience and skills and interest in loyalty.

KATE: And we wanted to kind of celebrate that and make something that sort of put them at the heart of it and gave them a bit of a forum and a platform to sort of share their thinking with.

CHARLIE: Well, I can also see why you really enjoyed working on it.

CHARLIE: It’s back to that point about the intersection of where business meets consumer meets technology.

CHARLIE: I think the practitioner’s point of view is so important, actually, and how you pull that all together.

CHARLIE: It really comes out of the report, actually.

CHARLIE: I love all the quotes and call outs, real people running programs.

CHARLIE: I’m a big fan of loyalty training and loyalty conferences and actually getting together with like-minded peers and sharing challenges from one sector to another.

CHARLIE: It never ceases to surprise me.

CHARLIE: Yeah.

CHARLIE: But like how the fuel sector could learn so much from the people running coffee programs, and the beauty sector could learn so much from retail.

CHARLIE: I always think that’s one of my favorite bits as well.

KATE: Well, I always come back to the heart of it.

KATE: It’s just humans, right?

KATE: It’s just human customers doing things.

KATE: I think we sort of forget that sometimes.

KATE: We let the category stuff and the kind of norms and things that we’re familiar with in that category, kind of occlude our understanding of at the heart of it.

KATE: It’s just people, right?

CHARLIE: Yeah.

CHARLIE: That’s why I’ve been so excited to watch what’s happened in the restaurant and cafe sector over the last sort of four or five years, because it almost started from scratch.

CHARLIE: You know, there wasn’t, you know, there was the coffee shop stamp card mechanic, but nothing else, really.

CHARLIE: And then when you look at the innovation in that sector, like the explosion, it genuinely looks like they sort of picked all the best bits of all the different sort of other sectors and put them together and then made them unique to them.

CHARLIE: So, yeah, no, that’s great.

CHARLIE: Yeah.

CHARLIE: You talk about four pathways.

CHARLIE: So again, I’m going to read this to make sure I get it right.

CHARLIE: So, data without understanding is noise.

CHARLIE: Loyalty requires courage and commitment.

CHARLIE: Adapting through creativity and innovation and the power of the collective.

CHARLIE: So, four really kind of cool, very Ogilvy-esque kind of chapters within the report.

CHARLIE: I can imagine how other agencies might have addressed that.

CHARLIE: And actually, I love this kind of that.

CHARLIE: There’s a big kind of conceptual thoughts from Ogilvy.

CHARLIE: And then there’s in the report, there’s obviously so much evidence behind each of them.

CHARLIE: But what do you think the sort of the highlights are of each of the four?

CHARLIE: You know, is there anything you think our listeners would be like, well, that’s the bit to really focus on?

KATE: I think, you know, overall, I mean, it is called loyalty in the age of the emotional consumer.

KATE: I think that is really about the need to build beyond functional benefits and experiences.

KATE: Those are often foundational and often the reasons someone joins a program.

KATE: But I think very quickly, there is a need to building things that are more memorable, more about making people feel things and really digging into that area so that you can be much more effective in what you do.

KATE: And I think with the pathways, the thing about data is really acknowledging that clients need to absolutely double down on the capability to analyze and turn that data into things that can inform and shape communications, benefits, experiences, whatever it is.

KATE: And that is about having both the right talent, the right number of people, the sort of scalable resource that you need, the scale of resources you need, and the technology, which does include AI, of course, but, you know, there are, without the human, you are going to get lost.

KATE: And I think those two things together, the human working with the right technology is obviously at the heart of that.

KATE: Loyalty requires courage and commitment.

KATE: I don’t think anyone operating in the world of loyalty would not, would be surprised by that.

KATE: But I think it’s worth saying, you know, for many years, loyalty felt like it was a siloed outpost that wasn’t really at the heart of what a business’ marketing effort, let alone the total business.

KATE: And I think it has sort of, in some instances, not all, but I think where it’s most successful, it has been brought more into the heart of the business.

KATE: It is viewed as a long-term endeavor that is a cross-business endeavor.

KATE: So multifunctional teams need to deliver across multiple parts of the business.

KATE: You know, where are things going to kind of be most felt?

KATE: And I think the big players, your Tescos, your Nectars, those guys have been the ones that have sort of trailblazed in showing that certainly Club Card and Nectar actually can be like a glue that takes to sort of quite disparate parts of your business, banking, mobile, blah, blah, blah, and can start to knit it together for the customer and give them another reason.

KATE: It’s not going to be the main reason.

KATE: It’s going to be lots of reasons someone might choose Tesco Mobile or Sainsbury’s Bank, but it becomes another reason to choose that just gives you a little bit of a firm advantage to deploy.

KATE: And I think the thing about courage is that point I made earlier about the need to be distinctive and to dig into your brand and find something that, you know, lasting consumer’s need is another me too program, really.

KATE: There are lots of programs out there.

KATE: It just won’t make any difference.

KATE: So you could be expending cost on something that doesn’t actually ever fulfill its needs.

CHARLIE: And cut through, I think, as well.

CHARLIE: So, yeah, you know, I mean, we know the average is, you know, a member of six programs and to get into that, you know, that sweet spot of six, you’ve really got to have something quite special in terms of your brand relationship, but also what you offer.

CHARLIE: I completely agree.

KATE: Which I think then takes us into the third point, which was about adapting through creativity and innovation.

KATE: I think, you know, so well, too many programs become so habitual that they, whilst the customer may be behaving a certain way, it’s back of mind and it’s no longer changing their behavior.

KATE: Now, most clients nowadays don’t get into loyalty purely to reward retrospective behavior, staying.

KATE: They actually want it to be a platform to drive future growth and to grow the customer’s sort of value to them as a business.

KATE: And I think to do that, you have to be prepared to keep things fresh, to bring in new things, to excite customers, to keep them interested.

KATE: You know, that’s the core thing and to give them, you know, things that sort of genuinely can recharge their behavior and move them on in a different way.

CHARLIE: And I think that’s such a shift, isn’t it?

CHARLIE: We recently took a brief from a client who should remain nameless, but a really big name brand.

CHARLIE: And they were actually thinking about their loyalty program as a chief driver for acquisition into the business, and actually how they were going to use it to attract people from their competitive set.

CHARLIE: And I was thinking, wow, you know, 15 years ago, this just wouldn’t have come up.

CHARLIE: This wouldn’t have been a KPI anywhere.

CHARLIE: But it’s great that programs are getting so high profile that it’s actually thinking for acquisition.

KATE: Yeah.

KATE: And I think that’s great.

KATE: And certainly, you know, Pets at Home use their program as a big driver, particularly around the sort of early years of having a puppy or a kitten.

KATE: You know, it’s really important.

KATE: And that’s of course when you get that big expenditure, which you also…

KATE: Of course.

CHARLIE: Well, my pug is a huge fan.

CHARLIE: Edna has her membership.

CHARLIE: I love the way they personalize it to a very important pet, in my case, my very important pug.

CHARLIE: I talk about that program loads.

CHARLIE: It’s brilliant at life cycle management.

CHARLIE: Absolutely fabulous.

CHARLIE: It’s sort of locking you in during that puppy phase and then moving you forward, a bit like Boots does, you know, with its parenting club, but for pets.

KATE: Yeah.

KATE: Well, we’ve also, I mean, in fairness, had us did that work on the original Pets at Home piece.

KATE: We’ve been looking at sort of specific projects for them.

KATE: We’ve just done one on looking at senior pets, because obviously lots of lots of pets acquired in lockdown.

KATE: The sort of rate of growth has slowed quite markedly now.

KATE: So we’re thinking about the longer term and how we can support pet parents, as they like to be called, owners, as I refer to them, through the sort of latter stages of a pet’s life.

KATE: And because actually there’s quite a lot of challenges that they face and you need a degree of expertise on hand to sort of help you with some of that.

KATE: And the last of the pathways was about the power of collective, which is really about how, I guess, partnering can help brands create sort of bigger, better ecosystems in terms of both the benefits they can offer, the ways in which they can reach customers, leveraging programs.

KATE: It could be all sorts of different things.

KATE: I mean, Nesse are quite interesting.

KATE: They tend to build ecosystems as partnerships to cover more of one of the customers’ needs, certainly in the Purina world.

KATE: It’s interesting looking at Nike and they did that partnership with JD Sports, just as a thing to acquire more customers to the Nike club, whatever it’s called now, I don’t know.

KATE: But I think partners can be a really, I think the old-fashioned way of thinking was very much, we have to do everything ourselves.

KATE: We have to do everything.

KATE: We can’t possibly work with anybody else because it will dilute our brand.

KATE: I just don’t think consumers think about that now.

KATE: I think the world of Co-Labs and that sort of thing has really changed, and people think it’s a really smart thing to do.

KATE: You can benefit from working with a savvy brand that’s a good fit for yours.

KATE: And I think, why wouldn’t you?

CHARLIE: As you can imagine, we at Mando looked at that part, we went, yay, because obviously we hugely believe in partnerships.

CHARLIE: More for less, but through collaboration is a kind of natural way we operate as humans.

CHARLIE: So brilliant to see it coming to the fore in Loyalty.

CHARLIE: Yeah, that was great.

CHARLIE: What about the kind of overall three key takeouts?

CHARLIE: Because I’m sure our listeners will read the cover to cover, learn it much as all us sort of loyalty strategists and nerds do.

CHARLIE: But for those people who are taking a bit of a shortcut through this podcast, what do you think the kind of three most important takeaways are?

CHARLIE: And that’s really difficult because obviously there’s so much in the paper.

KATE: There is quite a lot in there.

KATE: I think the simplest one is really to never forget that loyalty is both an emotion and a behaviour.

KATE: And that to be successful, you have to fuel both.

KATE: Whether that’s an equal measure or some more than others, I don’t know.

KATE: You’ve got to work that out for yourself, guys.

KATE: But to have that fullest possible impact and a bit like that fashion example I gave, that is not expensive for the brand to do.

KATE: It’s a darn cheap than manufacturing jumpers from the archives or something.

KATE: But that is the sort of thing where I think that would have given people an experience that they would never forget and would have been really easy to do and would have absolutely fuelled that emotional sense of achievement they had.

KATE: And I kind of go, that’s the kind of thinking that can get you to a much better place, I think.

KATE: So I think loyalty is both things.

KATE: It is a feeling and it is a behaviour.

KATE: And you have to feel both.

KATE: And I think the other point then is really the clients that want to succeed now specifically, you guys are going to have to dig deep into insight, into your brand, into your kind of collective imagination and creativity to really create something that is distinctive.

KATE: Because the world is awash with Loyalty programmes.

KATE: And consumers are starting to show signs of a little bit of, they’re kind of a bit bored with it, really.

KATE: You know, where’s the little bit extra?

KATE: And I think that’s the stuff you have to, yes, you will have to fulfil the sort of thinking about the four bonds, you have to fulfil the sort of more rational, functional, financial side of things.

KATE: But the other part of it, the sort of emotional, social, whatever you want to call it, those are the things where I think you can make much more impact if you’re lucky.

KATE: And I think the other third thing for me, and this really digs into, this really leans into the idea that it’s the need to keep evolving.

KATE: It’s, Loyalty is not a fixed destination.

KATE: Loyalty is actually an evolving relationship between two parties, and it always has been.

KATE: And I think you need to recognize that relationships change all the time.

KATE: And when they become fixed, they become very dull and predictable, and that’s when they possibly fracture.

KATE: So I think thinking about loyalty as a relationship rather than just a kind of one-dimensional thing is really important.

KATE: So I think probably those things are all interlinked, but those three things I thought were fairly handy.

CHARLIE: Brilliant.

CHARLIE: That’s a really good shortcut for everybody.

CHARLIE: But I do and cannot emphasize enough, read the whole paper.

CHARLIE: It’s really interesting.

CHARLIE: You can read it on your phone.

CHARLIE: You can read it while you’re commuting.

CHARLIE: It really is well worth it, particularly for the kind of quotes and takeouts and kind of a real experience that pepper through it.

CHARLIE: So as we draw to the conclusion of our episode, is there anything else you feel you’d like to share with our listeners today that you feel you haven’t covered?

KATE: I’d love to encourage younger people who possibly haven’t thought about the world of Loyalty CRM, what we call it nowadays, data-driven marketing as a particularly, something they’re particularly focused on.

KATE: I think that so many people, particularly in agencies, younger people have come up through the world of social, for example, which looks really exciting in its own rights, constantly evolving what’s going on.

KATE: But I would suggest that you also have a look at the world of Loyalty CRM one-to-one, all those things and embrace what it can offer you, because I think it’s going to remain important.

KATE: It’s going to keep changing.

KATE: It’s another string to your bow and you may find, a bit like Charlie and I did, that you get into it and you love it and you become a super nerd.

KATE: You become part of the crew that know about this stuff and really enjoy it.

KATE: You can build a career out of it.

KATE: I think we’re both showing and it is immensely enjoyable.

KATE: She’s both creative and business-focused and will stretch your brain in so many ways, that I think is immensely enjoyable.

CHARLIE: I think that’s a great answer.

CHARLIE: Yeah, I echo that completely from my top to my toes.

CHARLIE: I just think that’s a brilliant industry.

CHARLIE: You get to meet such interesting people and this has just been such a wonderful episode to talk about the programs you’ve worked on but brand new research and papers coming out as well.

CHARLIE: So thank you so much for your time today.

CHARLIE: If people want to reach out and they want to download the paper or get in touch with people at Ogilvy, I’m guessing the answer is probably LinkedIn and look on the websites.

CHARLIE: Yeah, there’s lots of things in there.

CHARLIE: Brilliant.

CHARLIE: We’ll make sure we put all those links in the show notes for people to find so they can get hold of the research and also follow up and look at all those brilliant Ogilvy case studies as well and all those awesome programs.

CHARLIE: There’s really not much more for me to say other than thank you so much for today.

CHARLIE: It’s been an absolute pleasure.

CHARLIE: That’s it from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.

CHARLIE: Bye.

PAULA: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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