Cadillac Fairview Is A Curator Of Mall Moments That Matter (#683)

Craig: There’s a real push to authenticity. That’s what people are gonna be loyal to. I’ve always been a mark 25 years in marketing, but I started my career in tech. At IBM, we realized as a. Technology company, the power of human energy. And then this Cadillac Fairview opportunity I came to learn about, which is like a natural fit right from video game to real estate or shopping malls.

But the conversation we were having, Cadillac Fairview at the time was them wanting to. Build more of an experience led business. It’s way more than a transactional shopping experience. And that’s why it made sense for me from an experience Xbox role to Cadillac Fairview, because here we’re building spaces that people live, work, and play there, again, powered by human energy.

Look at loyalty. We wanna make the experience. Something that you’re loyal to. We want the visit to be the reward. The path to loyalty, I feel, is repeatedly solving customers’ needs through all this technology shift. What a crazy time to be to have a career the last two decades, that it still just comes back to humanity in a world that feels like it’s maybe never been more technologically connected.

If we get a connection and authenticity as a North star in this loyalty conversation. Then if it is stuck, it gets unstuck by that moments can be created. They don’t just happen. Sometimes we can over-engineer these things. You don’t really get to pick which moments are most defining.

Paula: This show is brought to you by Comarch, the global loyalty partner, trusted by enterprise brands in over 50 countries. With more than 30 years of experience and 290 million loyalty members on board, Comarch knows what it takes to build real connections that last. Their AI powered tools turn data into action and customers into superfan.

From fraud proof platforms to personalized journeys, commar helps you boost engagement, grow revenue, and make loyalty your competitive edge. Want to see how they do it? Head over to Comarch.com and discover loyalty that actually works. Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, A show for loyalty marketing professionals.TV

I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty tv, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands. Today’s episode is part of the Wiser Loyalty Series and is hosted by Aaron Dauphinee, chief Marketing and Business Development Officer of the Wise Marketeer Group.

The Wise Marketeer Group is a media education and advisory services company. Providing resources for loyalty marketeers through the Wise Marketeer digital publication and the Loyalty Academy program that offers the Certified Loyalty Marketing professional or CLMP designation. I hope you enjoy this episode, brought to you by Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV in partnership with the Wise Marketeer Group.

Aaron: Hi everyone. Welcome back to another edition of the Wiser Loyalty Podcast series. This series continues to be brought to you through partnership between Let’s Talk Loyalty and The Wiser Marketer,  throughout 2024, the Wise Marketer Group, CEO, Bill Hannafin, and myself, Aaron Dauphinee. I’m the CMO here at WMG.

 we shared our insights on loyalty constructs and topics that were inspired by one of the core courses in our loyalty academy. Certified loyalty marketing professional curriculum, or CLMP for short in 2025. We are shifting from this academic focus to seek out insights from practitioners of the trades, such as our own CMPs, those who are leading from the suite, suite.

Um, twice a month, we will bring you an interview with a C-level executive, a loyalty leader, or CMP, who has transformed strategy into practical application. And really they’re generating strong business results from customer loyalty.  I’ve been looking forward to reconnecting with our guests today after meeting Craig Flannagan, the VP of Marketing for Cadillac Fairview, as part of our webinar series that we do in partnership with CRMC.

So welcome, Craig. It’s great to be speaking with you once again.

Craig: It’s good to be back.

Aaron: Wonderful. Like, to continue on, just before we dive into the questions, um, my excitement is both in having,  the expert perspective from Craig in this conversation, but also because of the sector in which he’s enabling our multi-discipline.

 so in that webinar where we first met, we explored a topic of decoding, gen Z. And the future of in mall shopping experiences. Um, this was done in part with two other guests, actually, one from Mall of America and another from Connic.  but today we’re hoping to rekindle some of that conversation with Craig and go deeper on a cattle Cadillac Fairview lens.

So,  we will also focus on an idea of loyalty being infused into the retail spaces.  that’s a term that I’ve used and, and Craig’s kind of,  keen in on as from our other conversations,  the retail spaces that CCF owns, such as malls,  the concourses within larger commercial buildings.  and the like, um, because they’re not all the same.

So,  but first for those of you who may not be familiar with Craig,  let me share a bit about his background. Um, I mentioned that Craig is the vice President of marketing for Cadillac Fairview, which is the prominent North American focused commercial real estate agent.  that here in Canada operates some of Canada’s highest performing shopping centers actually.

He’s a seasoned marketing leader with over 25 years of experience driving success at global brands, such as a few that you might know, IBM Microsoft.  and he spent the last decade creating Simo success for Cadillac Fairview.  some career highlights that Craig shared with me,  include just one, two, and three.

 the first was that he’s built a robust digital advertising business that includes Canada’s largest digital out of home screen. Um, he’s also created hundreds of immersive activations and experiences, including our country’s tallest Christmas tree. And then last but not least,  he’s cultivating the massive CF Insider digital community, which engages shoppers each year at Cadillac Fairview Properties.

So Craig, a couple things. Just let me check to make sure that I haven’t missed anything. What would you add for our listeners and,  and to add, add actually perhaps, um, if you might also talk a bit about transitioning from large tech giants into the retail sector. ’cause that’s interesting, you know, was the transition.

Easy. And you know, what, what was applicable from going from kind of those B2B kind of clients to B2C,   or the mix in between, if you will. I’ll stop there. Yeah. Let you go.

Craig: par I, yeah, I’ll, I’ll parse that out. Your first question, I think professionally that’s pretty good.  pretty good summary.

Great. Um, personally, I’m a proud husband and dad and,  dad to two gen alphas, and so, you know, based on our last conversation. You know, oddly what I, what I like, I’m a big, big researcher, but I love seeing the world through their eyes as well. And,  just seeing in some cases how different, and in some cases, how similar you start to see what the real human truths are when you can see the world through their eyes as much as I can versus my own.

Aaron: Yeah, I like we talked a little bit and you brought in some examples from, from your kid’s point of view in the conversation. So hopefully we’ll touch on those again today. But, but go on, continue.

Craig: Yeah, absolutely. And then the, the second question, it’s a fun one. I don’t get to talk about,  don’t get to talk about this much.

Um, because IBM, Microsoft and Cadillac Fairview might not stitch together,  for everybody, but, but they, they do for me. Um, I’ve always been a mark. So 25 years,  in marketing, but I started my career in tech marketing at at IBM. And,  most of the work that I was able to do at IBM, um, and the work that I think in affected me most was building their user group community.

Oh, interesting. And so it’s, it’s such a tech driven company, obviously, like that’s a real obvious statement, but I was able to spend my time bringing people together physically. From around the world. We had groups in, I can’t even tell you how many countries, but we had 400 user groups with hundreds of thousands of members across the world, and they would come together to talk about their plans.

They’d come together to talk about their tough problems. They would commiserate, they would figure out how to sell stuff in. Often it was based around like a, a technical presentation. There was some draw, but really at the end of the day, it was a physical human. Connection that we were building and, and we realized as a technology company, the power of human energy.

And, and for me it’s, it’s, it’s one of the reasons, like I still look back so fondly on that time. Like IBM’s a really smart company. In realizing their, their technology, but at the end of the day, there’s still people. Yeah. Using the, using the technology. Um, I went on from IBM to Microsoft and did a very similar thing.

So I started, um, you know, a big focus on Microsoft’s user group community in the Canadian space. So I joined Microsoft Canada. I’d gone from a more global IBM role to a Canadian Microsoft role. Did the same thing there, but. The fun part about Microsoft is they had some consumer brands and, and one of those was Xbox.

And as a marketer that’s like gravity. You’re, you just kinda get, yeah. That’s amazing. Oh, I love it. You just kind of get pulled when that’s in your orbit. You’re like, what about that thing over there? Um, so I,  I got, I was, I was really lucky and blessed enough to, to join the Xbox team at Microsoft. And that thread continued though, which I think is really interesting.

Like, yes, that was the first kind of. Um, you know, change in direction in my career, you know, going from B2B mostly to a B2C brand. Like it’s, it’s very business to consumer Xbox. The thread that continued for me was Xbox is a video game system for sure. Or was at that point, I’m not sure what they would call it now.

Um, but the real special part of Xbox was Xbox Live. It was this service that brought people together. It wasn’t about this solo game experience, it was. Which is what gaming consoles used to be. Yeah. They were social, but they were social on the couch. Yep. Maybe you’d have a buddy come over. Xbox Live really brings this thing to the world and so again, I found myself at the nexus of tech and community.

And really the special thing there was the human energy.  when we launched Xbox 360, One of the taglines we had was the ultimate social magnet, you know, powered by human energy. So like, already, I would say in the first 10 years of my career was starting to see, well, wait a minute, there’s a repeatable thing around human energy.

Um, which then, you know, I did, Oneum, over 10 years, I think I did 11 years at at Xbox. And then this Cadillac Fairview opportunity,  I, I came to learn about, um. Which is like a natural fit, right? From video games to, to real estate or shopping malls, but oh, so natural. Um, the conversation we were having, um, that I was having with Cadillac Fairview at the time was them wanting to build more of an experience led business and, and to realize that it’s way more than,  a transactional shopping experience.

All the credit to them. I mean, like, I didn’t have to come in here and tell them that they, they were really, really focused on that. Um, and that’s why it made sense for me from an experience Xbox role to Cadillac Fairview, because here we’re, we’re building spaces that people live, work, and play in. Um, they’re again powered by human energy.

Like now I’m seeing the thread, you know, come, come over 25 years, that it’s way more than just. Retail transactions, commerce transactions we’re a place to meet, have a drink. Um, you know, last time when we were talking, we were talking about, you know, the path to loyalty, I feel is repeatedly solving customer’s needs.

That’s right. When we look, when we look at the needs that, that we solve, yeah. Part of it’s like an achievement base. I need to get something, but part of it’s personal. I need to kill time or relax. Part of it’s social. I need a place to hang out. I, I, my parents are in town and I wanna go eat, or we wanna walk around, um, or exploratory or inspirational.

Like there’s so many needs that we solve that are beyond the transactional needs, but also come from this place of human energy like that, that that’s why I like lately, I’ve really liked looking back on the last two decades because. Yeah, it’s, it’s a pretty defined thread around, um, you know, just through all this technology shift, what a crazy time to be, to have a career the last two decades.

That it still just comes back to humanity, like it still comes back to we are, at the end of the day, humans with needs.

Aaron: And, and I think it’s even more apropos in this,  state of, you know, where’s artificial intelligence gonna take us? And, and what’s the human element that you talk about that interferes with ai?

And, you know, we’ve said at the Wise Marketer group,  it’s a takeoff of someone else. So it’s not our original thought, but we, we are sharing it out there, which is, you know, AI is not gonna replace humans. It’s humans using AI that are gonna replace.  humans, right? So it’s, it’s using the technology and having that thread.

But I, I also love in this conversation as well as the, the one before where we, where you talk about this idea of spaces and the way in which spaces are changing, whether they’re digital spaces or actual physical spaces, and that human energy you’re talking about. Is apparent in both of those no matter what.

So that, like you say, there is that thread. And so it is, is a very, very fascinating time for us to, to be alive and to be marketers at this point in time. Um, yeah. Hey, before we we hop into more specifically around your thoughts around loyalty and, and, and CFS lens, um, one of the things that we always like to do here at the.

At the Let’s Talk Loyalty, and particularly for the Wiser Loyalty Podcast, is to ask,  our actual,  guests a little bit about what they’re reading. You know,  you know, what, what goes deeper into your mindset that’s outside. You talked a little bit about your family, so that was good to get some human element to you.

But yeah, another way of doing that. So,  our team always asks,  our guests about, you know, what book you’re currently reading and. And I always like to add in like why or what’s the most fruitful takeaway that comes from that particular book. So maybe if you could, could dive in there before we, we hop into too many harder questions.

Craig: Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, look, I’ll be honest, there’s, there’s two, I’m reading, there’s one I’ll talk about. Um, the,  the one I’m, I am rereading *Power of Moments for probably the third time. So I’m a big fan of,  switch and Chip and Dan Heath. Like, I, I think they figured something out. Um, so yeah, to me it’s a reread, probably the third time.

And the overarching insight that I can take from that is that moments can be created. They don’t, they don’t just happen. Um, they, they can be created. And I wouldn’t go as far as to say we have found that it’s, it’s like overly formulaic. Like you just do this and it works every time. Right. Um. Yeah. But the book definitely puts you on a path to, gets you to fun places faster from a moment perspective, like talking about surprise and delight.

 Or talking about how. Moments seem to be more meaningful when people discover things for themselves versus if they’re told, which I think is a parenting statement as much as a business statement. Yeah, I think that’s fair too. A life life statement, right? Yes, I can, I can tell. Or you can figure it out on your own.

The second is way more impactful. Um, but just that idea of the fact that moments can be manufactured, um, which I, I even hate the way I said that, that, that there’s like. That there’s just a, there’s a method to moments. Um, and they, I think the other thing I took, I, I take away from the book when I read it and reread it is, and they’re not all like the whizzbang fireworks moments like you

One of my favorite movies is Inside Out. Okay. I love that movie. Familiar with it. And, and one of the things that I take away from that movie is. You don’t really get to pick which moments are those defining moments. And when, I’m sure when you look back as well, like some of the things are real small. Yes.

It’s, it’s, it’s not the trip, it was the fact that you got candy at the airport. And like, again, I, I work it back to like the job I’m in, but also the, the family life we’ve got, it’s like sometimes we can over-engineer these things.

Aaron: Well, I, I think if I, if I take an and add to what you’re, you’re suggesting is, you know, the, is a bit harsh moments can be manufactured, but I, I, I like you’re just being literal, I think as opposed to, you know,  trying to emphasize that they’re, um,  prescriptive to too much degree.

But, but yeah, they, they still need to

Craig: be authentic moments at the end of the day. Right. Like, I think the, yeah, the authenticity of them still needs to

Aaron: be power. If you’re an individual who is. Seeking out moments and have a philosophy of moments matter, right? Like I,  I’ll speak for myself personally.

One of the frustrations from my family typically, you know, if they were when I was younger, would ever gimme some extra spending cash is, you know, Hey, go buy a couch. And I would be like, no, I’m gonna take my friends for dinner, because it was the moment that was more meaningful and impactful. And if I look back on those things later on,  God forbid when the white light starts to show, then,  I, I might.

Theory is that I’ll remember those moments,  with people and, and, and experiences as opposed to the things that I’ve had. And that’s just a, a psych psychology. And so when you take that into your work world, like we are with as loyalty operators and, and as, as marketers, you start to want to create those experiences for others just like you yourself are creating for,  for, for the environment that you live in and for the experience that you have in this life.

Yeah. Yeah. I

Craig: think it, I I like the way you said that. It’s like creating the conditions for moments.

Aaron: Yes.

Craig: What do we need to do to create the conditions for moments? And, and yeah, just as I think about that book, um, I, I find it’s a great balance of psychology and business strategy. It’s just like very straightforward, so it’s worth a reread, and that’s what I’m doing.

Aaron: I, I love that. And I mean, oftentimes when we find ourselves rereading something. Um, we’re dissecting it like a good mystery, right? Like you, you see things the second and third or even fourth or fifth time that you did in the first, because you’re at a different state of evolution and you’ve had the time to incubate the ideas in your subconscious, and then they pop up because of the experiences you might have had in the periods between when you, you first read it, to when you second or third Reddit.

So I think that’s, that’s,

Craig: yeah, sure. No, you’re right. It’s the shower moments. It’s not the Yeah, exactly.

Aaron: Exactly. Um, listen, I’m Canadian. You’re Canadian.  a lot of people will know Cadillac Fairview. I, I gave an overall description, but perhaps you can just, for those who are unfamiliar with,  the business and the business model, maybe can describe a little bit more about the business and, and the types of customers that you’re targeting.

I think that’s more, more really what I’d like to get to and, and who you’re trying to influence and,  with the loyalty two mechanics that you have and, you know, is it retailers, is it mall shoppers? What’s that look like in terms of your, your writ at,  CF in marketing?

Craig: Yeah, so I, I think the kind of meat and potatoes first, we’re the largest owner operator, investor, developer of, um, office retail, multifamily, residential, industrial, mixed use in North America.

So we’re a big real estate company. But, but at the end of the day, um, we know again, like we’re a place, we’re, we’re a space. Um, where, where life happens, where work happens, where play happens, right? Um, and, and for us, when we look at loyalty, and we kind of talked about this a bit last time, when we look at loyalty.

We, we wanna make the experience something that you’re loyal to. Um, so when we think about rewards, like we, we want the visit to be the reward.

Okay?

Craig: Um, and, and so how do we, how do we think about that from, from a loyalty lens? And so for us, that comes back to understanding, um, what people need and what they want and trying to deliver on that.

And, and for us, it looks like great locations, great retailers, great dining and entertainment options. In what we hope is an inspiring environment. And so that’s, that’s really what drives, um, that’s really what drives us, making sure that we understand that we’re more than shopping, we’re more than transaction.

That people have a whole bunch of different needs. And it’s our job to understand those, um, and to try to solve them more often than not in a way that’s inspiring.

Aaron: I I like that. And it actually dovetails nicely into a question that I have later on, so I’m gonna bring it forward a little bit, which is, is really around, like, I wanted to get you to talk a little bit about some of the strategies that are proving successful to get people into your physical spaces.

Like I, I love that we, we’ve gone back and forth on that term. ’cause it, it is so apropos for what. Yeah. You have as, as inventory, right? And so you talk about the rewards as the, the reward, the spaces that, and reward in some to some degree. What other, what other strategy? Proving successful to get people into the spaces.

And then also, yeah.  what’s the next level of like, they’ve come once,  how do we get them to return and or go to other spaces in your network?

Craig: Yeah. Um. I think the, the first part is solving needs and the the second part is doing it repeatedly. Building some trust that, that you’ve, you’ve got them, you know, I think is, is the overarching approach.

But if I were to take another look at kind of how we, how we try to, you know, resonate. Canadian, and I think one of the parts of the question you’d have was, you know, who, who’s our customer? That’s right. The, the, the reality is the ma the, the great majority of Canadians. You know, not a hundred percent, but awfully close.

We visit a Cadillac Fairview property once a year at least. So we, we’ve, we just have the geographic spread where we’re seeing lots of Canadians. The other reality is, is like we, we know that cross shop happens, so you’re not gonna do all of your shopping here. But yeah, we try to make this environment, um, one that you wanna come to.

More often than not, we know that convenience plays a big role. That’s, that’s a, a big kind of gate. Yeah. Are we conveniently located after that? It, it comes down to mix. Do we have the experiences that you want? Be it retail food? Um, and, and so when we look at the highest level of needs that you can really break them down, I find anyway, into needs that are more efficiency based.

Hey.  I’m time starved, detention deficit. I’m in a bit of a hurry.  and so for us, that might be way finding, making sure you can find parking quickly, making sure you can find the retailer you wanna go to, making sure you can make a restaurant reservation easily. Um, making sure that you can find your way around the property easily.

Sometimes that’s signage, sometimes that’s directory, sometimes that’s people. So that’s kind of the efficiency. Then there’s inspiration. You have more. Stores, restaurants, entertainment experiences, then I will visit in a single trip. So I expect you Cadillac, Fairview to be able to curate. I expect you to be able to pull something together and give me a day.

Right. Okay. Like, um, ’cause lots of our centers, you know, they would have hundreds of retailers, more than more than you’re gonna visit. I think the, the, you know, that that’s a, a need that people look for, um, from us. And then I think there’s the, just the social needs as well, right? So how do you, if it’s, if it’s inspiration and efficiency, then probably social is the next biggest thing.

So like, how do you create experiences that allow, um, for things to happen in between the stores? Right? How do you lease to people? And, and put experiences in your property that are social in nature. I think about the things that we’ve done with National Geographic or with the Ontario Science Center at Sheway Gardens, or we’ve got a VR experience called Horizons of FU at Chinook Center in Calgary.

Um, we’ve partnered with a Montreal company called Mirror Mirror,  or sorry, moment Factory on an experience called Mirror Mirror. Um. So I think there’s those social elements to it, right? That are, that are, yes, inspiring, but also built for social. And, and that’s, that’s how, I think that’s the mix. That’s the kind of recipe for us to drive a visit is to make sure that you are balancing efficient, inspiring, and social, um, and, and doing a good job at like.

Salient and like consistently communicating that as well so that when that need arises of something to do, we’re, we’re in the decision set. Hey, we could go to this place and do that, or we could go to the eating center and hit Italy. That’s a, that could be a fun experience, right? Like, right, right. That’s, that’s what we’re shooting for.

Aaron: I, I, I, I like the, like the, the, the set of four that you, you put there. I’m, I’m curious, most though have to admit around the idea of curation. Obviously that falls into my line of work with the media  Education of how we curate,  content. But you’re talking about curating experiences, which ties to the social.

So the three and four, the first two Yeah. Are, are important as well too. But of, of the mix.  and you said like that’s what your customers are looking for is this idea to curate something for create social,  my first thought is do I think about Cadillac Fairview as doing that or is as the brand to do that?

Like what’s, what’s the role or the difference between the mall operator or you as the real estate,  owner ownership group in owning that relative to the retailers participating and doing the mix and mash on that, on those experiential trend ex expectations versus. You know, the more,  purchase based transactions.

Craig: Yeah. Well, and they’re not all, I mean, to be clear, not all of our retailers are, are, I don’t think many of our retailers are purchase based transactions. I think everybody’s, you know, interesting. Everybody’s got, everybody’s got experience kind of in, in their minds as, as the, the goal.

Aaron: Um, that’s a really good comment like that, that we’re at a point with retailers of like, it’s not, it’s moved beyond.

If you’re just thinking about a simple transaction, you, you’re behind now is what you just said, essentially. Interesting. Yeah. Like,

Craig: I think we’ve gone, yeah, I think, I think we’ve gone to a really incredible place in terms of, um, how compelling the shopping experience is.  I think COVID, at least in Canada, was a really interesting test case of, you know, being in a fully online digital environment.

And I think if anything it gave us, uh. It, it gave us,  maybe some, if we needed more, it gave us some, some really good confidence about the, the need for physical spaces and that, and from a, a physical or a brick and mortar shopping experience. Yeah, there is an experiential, tactile, um, social element to it.

That, that is, I, I think. So innately human that it’s not gonna go anywhere. But if I think about, you know, if I go back to your question and think about the, what, what I feel like our role is versus our retailers. Yeah, please. I think that the difference is we are, um, we have a relationship with our consumers, our retailers have a relationship with, with Canadians as well.

We, um, I, I look at the fun in, in our jobs as having so many different pieces to kind of pull from, to pull together an experience. You know, we’ve got food over here, we’ve got apparel over here. We’ve got a more experiential play here. We’ve got fragrances there, or cosmetics or whatever it is. Um, we’ve got hundreds of options to pull together, um, a view or an experience so that.

You know, you can look at Cadillac Fairview as an interesting place. Um, right. When I get down to the retail level, there’s too many examples of retailers who are crushing that in their own way, right? Like, right, you got you. There it is just. It’s just so many great examples of, of physical retailing right now, and we’ve got a relationship with our retailers as well.

Like it is a B2B and a B2C kind of approach from a B2B perspective. You know, we wanna be making sure with our retailers that, you know, we are the one that people think about. That’s why you wanna be with Cadillac Fairview. We’re super well located and super well known and  You know, we, we have. The collection of the greatest retailers in the country.

So that’s kind of the B2B play where the B2C play is again, that needs-based approach.

Aaron: I, I’m curious if I wanna maybe double click. I hate to use that term, but I’m gonna use it conveniently on the top of my mind today.  I’m curious about,  you know, with, with you structuring some curation on these experiences and then you’re talking about the fantastic experiences that retailers are starting to bring into the fold.

Is there, is there ever any friction,  that occurs between those two, like your view versus the retailers? Or do you find by and large. You are,  an accoutrement, an accompaniment to that? Or like who leads, who follows, I guess is really what I’m, I’m more curious about,

Craig:  or does it depend? Yeah. Look, um, we, we have a really, like, we, we’ve got a really good relationship, um, with our retailers and so I don’t know if there is a, a cut and dry answer to that, but I mean, we have gone, we’ve gone to market with.

75, 80% of our retailers in the last year doing things together. Wow. They look, the retailer’s obviously gonna lead from a product and an experience standpoint, but I think where, where we lead is the experience is the collection of retailers. And, and like, if, if part of your question is, do you ever run into friction where, you know, like retailers don’t wanna play together?

No. Like I, I just think everybody. Everybody understands, um, the, the sort of magic of the recipe of all of the retailers in that center, that they, they all play a role. And when you add them all together, that’s where I think from a business strategy standpoint, it’s a really compelling palette to pull from to solve needs.

It’s a really compelling pal because you have so many options. As a marketer, it’s, it’s different than. It’s different than anything I’ve ever done before to just to be able to look at the, you know, thousand or so retailers that we’ve got across our centers and say, okay, how are we gonna pull this together and do a story that is compelling?

Aaron: And relevant to a certain set of customers that’s different to a different set of customers,  and meets. ’cause they have different needs. To your point. Well this, yeah. I think for me, I was, I was kind of just more curious around, you know, if, if the umbrella is the, the spaces that CF is owns and is, is creating kind of a.

A tone or theme or, or experiential, um, curating experiential,  act activations, for lack of a better term.

Aaron: I, I think you answered the question. When you’ve got 75, 80% of your retailers that are participating with you. That allows you a lot of flexibility to give the guidance and and to curate appropriately for the needs of that particular Yeah.

Segment group as opposed to a small reliance on one or two where, you know, if you’re off mark, it’s gonna be a notable off mark, you know, if, if you’ve got this, you know, bevy of, of retailers in your ecosystem that you can plug and play for different groups,  you’re gonna have Yeah. More flexibility and success in creating a positive experience for ’em.

So I That makes sense. Yeah.

Craig: And there are, and there are moments where, um, we get. Really focused on the space in between the retailers as well. Yeah. Right. Like bingo really focused on the common area. I mean, it’s, it’s a bit cliche, but holiday is a perfect example. Christmas is a perfect example.

Yeah.

Craig: Where that, that’s kind of our role to do what we can to respect that tradition and that nostalgia and, and so we, we. Take that seriously. And  and, and we can do that at spring and we can do that at fall, and we can do that at back to school. And we can do that at those moments where like the, the quote unquote need state is so clear.

We can, we can do that. We can take, that’s where we can take a broader umbrella view and say, well, this is what the feeling is right now.

Aaron: Yeah, I think, I think where I was going with that and I had some other questions, but I’m gonna bypass it ’cause this is such a lovely flowing conversation that we have right now.

 I guess where ultimately I was kind of most curious about to get your opinion on was, you know, at the end of the day when we think about a loyalty perspective, I. You know, are your customers loyal to you or are they loyal to the retailers? Some combination, like what’s, what’s your large premise or, or, or your,  need to believe on that in terms of how you operate and, and bring people into your spaces and, and, and into the retailers that are, that are operating in your spaces?

Craig: Yeah, I would say it’s, it is probably both. Um, and, and you know, the metrics that we look at for loyalty are more the business performance metrics, so very good. Having six of the top 10 malls in the country, like it, it is just, we, we look at things like that to, to, you know,  confirm whether or not we’re doing a good job.

Aaron: That makes sense. Yeah. And you said you, your research fact based, so that, that makes sense that you’d have those ties to, to kind of performance based on, you know, relative to other mall providers.  And, and real estate agents or real estate,  holding companies. So that’s good. Um, I mean. In North America, you know, maybe, I mean, you might have a different view on this, but like,  one of the things that we’ve, we’ve talked about is that in North America, and, and it’s not all, but it’s many, many of the retailers are, are seemingly stripping away a lot of value from their loyalty programs.

Um, and it’s, you know, not exactly the same experience worldwide, but certainly in North America, we, we think that there’s a downgrade to some degree. And so when we think about some of the mall programs that exist in the Middle East and Asia regions that are loyalty based, um, you know, we’re starting to see that a bit more North America.

Can you, can you offer a perspective on what’s different for retailers in, in North America, relative to others in the world from your point of view when it comes to loyalty? Um, you know, what can be learned,  you know, what should be learned type of view,  that you can apply here in North America, or, or what does North America do better than, than others?

Even could go, go both ways. I don’t,

Craig: yeah, that’s, I mean, it’s a good question. I, I’ll be honest, I don’t know that I have,   enough background to give you a good one on that. But, um, when I, when I look, you know, part of your question, I, I definitely agree with, like, I do think the more transactional nature of a program Yeah.

It, it is probably the one that’s maybe. Most, um, at risk or least connected to this human energy that we’re talking about. So, but yeah, I don’t, I don’t, I, I don’t feel like I’ve got enough kind of global background on, on loyalty programs to give you a, a big kind of spread difference between North America and the world.

But the, the sense I get kind of overall is that, um. There’s lots, there’s, there’s a path being beaten to the experience being the thing you’re, you’re loyal to. And the role of, of the more programmatic loyalty still important.  Um, but it’s kind of a companion to the experience.

Aaron: Oh, that’s, I I mean that’s a bit of music to our ears here at Wise Marketer Group.

We’ve,  you know, we’ve been beating the drum for a number of years and we’ll continue to do it ’cause we think it’s the right thing where we talk about it in very. You know, basic terms of big L loyalty, right? It’s involving,  the programmatic plus the brand view, plus the experience. Those three kind of tenets,  that come together and, and,  and to create the whole experience.

And all of them have an element of loyalty. Loyalty is not just, I. Thought to be that programmatic, it’s much larger.

Yeah.

Aaron: To our earlier question about how do you get them in and how do you get them to repeat, you know,  you’re doing that in a similar way and it still can be called loyalty. It’s just maybe not, you know,  a punch card or a discount or low a points-based program per se.

So. Interesting. Okay. That, that, that’s good. I mean, um. What the other part that I said, the onset that I was curious about because,  getting your perspective on is because this is a non-traditional multi-sector, right? That you’re, you’re trying to activate in. And so, you know, perhaps why,  I’d love your industry and perspective on this is, is literally because.

 you know, we’ve heard whispers that loyalty is, you know, a bit dated. Perhaps it’s stuck.  you know, it needs to be unstuck. Um, I’ve listened to an actual debate on that at a conference not too long ago of whether it’s stuck or unstuck.  you know, where do you think we’re at in the industry? Maybe you’ve already touched on this because you’re so focused on that human energy element and experiential

From, from that side.  and maybe that’s the right play given this sector, but you know, what’s important for loyalty overall and, and in particular for your, for your industry as you think about how you put the loyalty mechanics into play?

Craig: Yeah, I think we’ve talked about part of it. Yeah. Maybe there’s, maybe there’s a part we haven’t, but I think the, the parts that we’ve talked about are, um, yeah, we want you to be loyal to the experience.

We, we want you to be loyal because it’s something that can repeatedly. Help you out repeatedly, you know, kind of solve the problems that you’ve got. But I do, you know, and I’m not sure about stuck or unstuck, but one of the, one of the things that, that, you know, I’ve had conversations with some industry folks about, I’m just kind of in thinking about myself.

Um, there’s a real push to authenticity that I think that is, that is coming. That is that maybe it’s generational, so maybe it ties back to the last conversation we had about Zs and Alphas. Um, but there’s, there’s a, there’s going to be a real push to authenticity and, and I think that maybe that’s another way to tie it back to, to loyalty and I think moving.

Forward a lot more. That’s what people are gonna be loyal to. And, and it’s hard because I, I think it requires you to be insightful and to understand things for real. I think it requires you to communicate, not in a manipulative way, but in a real, straightforward need solving way. Um. So I, I think it’s kind of block and tackle stuff where you’ve gotta continue to understand the role you play in people’s lives, and then having the wherewithal, the courage, the conviction, the priorities to be able to do it.

Um, which is, which is hard. It’s, it’s not, it’s not easy. I come back to like, two thirds of our trips solve personal, social or inspiration. Okay. Like I just keep coming back and I’m like, um, still just trying to figure out, in a world that feels like it’s maybe never been more technologically connected, there’s a heck of a lot of.

Divisive examples out there. Um, and, and if we get a connection and authenticity as a, as a north star in this loyalty conversation, then if it is stuck, it gets unstuck by that. Um, and, and again, I, I can’t render an opinion unstuck or unstuck, but you know, you would ask what’s important for loyalty. I, I think that’s it.

Yeah. I.

Aaron: People, the conversation is, is a, is a real tangible conversation that is, is happening here with, amongst you and I, but it’s elsewhere.   also, so I think you, you hit on something there. You also touched a little bit on, as you were talking, I, I keyed in on a couple things. One,  the kind of the block and tackle things.

Right. Um, and then just curious real quick, from your perspective, as you think about.  creating these authentic experiences for your customers, so, so that they,  come to CF properties and spaces. Um, you know, how, how important is the real time data coming into,  you curating and creating these social activations?

Or are they kind of preset because they’re at that high order, like at a Christmas holiday season?  is the first, and then you mentioned about also. Um, the, the communications. And so, um, like who, who’s, who’s the owner of that comms is, are, are customers expecting those communications from CF or from the retail or, or what’s the, what’s that mix look like?

Kind of a two-prong question again for you. Sorry about that.

Craig: No, no. All, all good. Um, I think customers are, um, expecting. Or maybe accepting. Okay. Yeah. Of, of, of, of both. I mean,  in, in terms of retailers and, and cf and, and we, you know, you, you talk about real time and, and you know what, what sort of data In the first part of the question, the, you, you kind of already said it.

The more human insightful stuff we. We wanna make sure that we’ve got our ear to the ground. But that I have found, like it changes, but it changes over time. Right? Like, and it changes, you know, and we, that, that said, we saw big shifts in COVID. In the beginning of COVID, we would’ve seen a flight to achievement based visits.

Okay, if I’m going outta my house, I’m gonna have a purpose. And, and you know, we, we went and we did our listening with customers and Wow. That one shot up and we’re like, okay. What can we do to make this experience, um, as efficient as possible? Right. As safe and efficient. Yep. But it, it, and, and what I say, you know what I was saying about, you know, they changed, but over time I was surprised and in some ways is like human relieved to see.

The social inspirational personal needs rebound pretty quickly. Great. Yeah. Rebound pretty quickly. Rebound was quick.

Aaron: Okay. It wasn’t laid down and,

Craig: and, and almost snap back in some ways really. We had been inside for a long time. It would be like, oh my God, I need human connection. Where am I gonna go for that?

Like we had, you know, more browsers and people just walking around for that first little bit. ’cause you realize it was something people missed. Um, and. And so that sort of data we keep our eye on.  Um, we talk, we talk to Canadians a lot. Um, and it does shift, but it, it shifts over time. The real time data, I would say that we look at is more the communications.

Okay. It is more the, like that that is a. Real time more or, or fairly quick time, if not real time,  curation. There’s a couple of different programs that we do, um, from a marketing perspective. One of them is called Shop the Look, and that is literally just curating from across the mall. So we work with different retailers to understand.

Um, what consumers are looking for. If it’s seasonally, if it’s moment in time,  we then go and see which of our retailers solve that need. We pull it together into a shop. The look at holiday, we do shop the gift. Oh, that’s one. That’s one way that we would do it, right? And that’s, that’s that balance of inspiring and efficient.

I’m gonna inspire you, but I’m also gonna tell you the 11 retailers this came from and where to get it. So that you can go, okay, I, I can be efficient and you’ve inspired. But that’s

Aaron: really helpful. Like those, putting just those two examples kind of clarifies for me in my mind at least, and hopefully for others as well too.

Like the role that you’re playing in terms of guiding and connecting retailers. That’s, I’m glad you, you talked those through. Wonderful. Yeah. We’ve

Craig: also, we’ve also got digital ambassadors. Okay. Yeah. Talk to me about that. Every one of our properties, and that’s, that is fairly real time, so that is. Um, you know, social savvy people who is like everybody now I guess, but, um, who, who are just at our properties all the time.

Um, being able to collect pretty organic content often.  So that our content is out there a lot. And from an authentic standpoint. Um, like, I’m not saying we do stiff corporate content, but from an authentic standpoint, it’s, it, it plays, right? It’s, it is authentic. It’s, it’s user capturing content there hundred.

Um, and, and so that, that plays well and like for the marketers who are listening, it’s got another side benefit of, I mean, production budgets can be a bit cheaper when you’re doing that. And so, you know, there’s. There’s some benefits to being authentic and, you know, we’re not doing hundreds of thousands of dollar TV commercials, but at the same point, um, yeah, it, it, it makes for it, it just recognizes how fast we’re all moving.

I.

Aaron: You. Yeah. You, you talked with us last time when we on the webinar with,  Connick and, and Mall of America about these ambassadors. And one of the curiosities that came up for a question,  you know, from that session was, you know, are you paying these people? But, but if I recall, you’re not, like, these are just, as you said, individuals who, like the CF spaces, they come, they’re.

Having experiences within them, with their friends, on their own, whatever that might be. And at the same time doing you,  you know, some favor in terms of capturing the moments, if you will. Is that correct?

Craig: Yeah. In, in,  in, in places we are, more often than not, we are, I mean, those are content creators and, and we wanna.

Make sure that, that, we’re recognizing that, but the majority of the content that’s out there shot on the CF property, you’re absolutely right. It’s not by people that we have a, a direct relationship with, but I think I would say that goes for everybody as well. It’s just sort of, we’re always on

Aaron: display in this world, right?

Like yeah. Used to be able to control that. But in, in this day and age, that’s now, now long gone when everyone has a camera and a microphone on the device that they carry with them more than their wallet even now,

Craig: right. Yeah, but those, those ambassadors, I mean, we do wanna respect that, that they’ve got, yeah.

They’ve got, you know, some expertise, they’ve got a specialty,  they’ve got a desire, and that’s, you know, we wanna make sure we’re not taking advantage of that either.

Aaron: And, and, and I’m assuming they get some sort of badge that they can claim if they so choose some status symbol, or is it

Craig: Yeah. Yeah, they can, yeah.

They, they, many of them promote themselves as the ambassador for that model. Yeah.

Aaron: Oh, wow. That’s, that’s kind of, that’s like,  what’s the old, old program? Foursquare, or,

Craig: yeah, a little bit. It’s like, it’s like everything old is new again. It’s like somebody’s picks at the video store. A

Aaron: hundred percent if I didn’t

Craig: just age myself.

If I haven’t aged myself already, I just did it there.

Aaron: I mean, you did a pretty good job. ’cause you said that you’ve got some,  some alphas at home, but,  on that, but no, I think, I think it’s one of those things where.  as marketers, we have to extend ourselves beyond all those ages, which is why, you know, this conversation.

And the last one we had as well too. You know, we put ourselves in the shoes of different customer,  groups and, and, and, and the thoughts and needs, as you’ve said. I love that you’re coming from a needs based application to look. Yeah, that’s, that’s,  right on par with,  some historical stuff that I used to do when I was,  at,  metropolitan University teaching Marketing.

So that’s good to see. That I’m not alone, but, um, I we’re getting close to time.  Craig, this has been a really fascinating conversation. I, I, I’ve really enjoyed it.  to tie off though,  we can do,  a tried and true moment.  bill and I both like to do this in, in our,  wiser loyalty series, whether it’s,  for laps talk loyalty or even for our own stuff that we do at Wise Marketer.

But, um, can you share one example from, and it can be either. Like personal or professional life. That doesn’t have to be,  one or the other. But,   an epiphany moment is essentially what I’m looking, looking for. So a a time where you just thought, gosh, this is why customer loyalty works for

Craig: Yeah. I hate that we just talked about HI.

It’s gonna tie it, it’s gonna tie it too close. Aaron. Oh my God,

Aaron: I hit a nerve.

Craig: The example that comes to mind is,  I am a Pearl Jam fan, right? I fell in love with Pearl Jam as a teenager. I still go to see them, um, not as often, but, but pretty regularly. And one thing I love about their shows is they get that we are all in this together, right?

And, and I know that lots of bands and entertainment get that, so I don’t wanna say that they own this exclusively, but I. They know that the shows don’t work without the audience. They’re, and they’re talented and confident and humble enough to know that. Um, and, and I just kind of, that, that’s an epiphany moment for me because I think that so much of entertainment and experience in general has to balance some personal interest, some need.

There it is. Yeah. With human connection like that. Right. And, and the, the shared moments. The Yes, the people on stage or the Brandon invited me to the thing. They were the reason we got together, but they’re, they, they had best set the table for an experience. They facilitated. We were all facilitates a perfect work.

Yeah, yeah. We are, we’re all kinda in this together and, and for me it’s a personal example of something I find insightful that we’re. We seem to, at least I do, we seem to, I seem to always be searching for the moments of, of connection and it’s through like shared interest. Agree. Yeah.

Aaron: Yeah. That, that, that, that human element, that human energy that you talked about earlier, you know,  it can be done individually.

Certainly that there are,  pursuits and moments that are, are meant to be solo. But by and large, I would say,  if it’s a true moment, it’s often in conjunction with.  I’ll use another entity ’cause it could go to your dogs or your cats or like other things, but other humans as well too. So,  I like to think of it that way.

But,   Craig, it’s been great speaking with you. Thanks so much for taking the time out of your busy day at Cadillac Fairview to speak with us again, and we really appreciate it. Um, there’ll be individuals who want to talk with you, we can connect with you after this for sure. But otherwise,  just want us to thank everyone,  who.

Took the time to listen to this podcast today as well too. We know your time is busy and, and with that, look forward to the next sessions,  when you sign back in. So,  we’ll say goodbye and, and thank you very much Craig and  for everyone else as always, stay loyal. Thanks.