This week, we revisit our conversation with Kim Hardaker Former Vice President of Loyalty & Partnership from Etihad Guest, now VP of Loyalty & Sustainability at Riyadh Air.
Kim shares how Etihad Guest — with 7M+ members worldwide — evolved through unprecedented disruption, including the launch of its standout “World of Thoughtfulness” campaign.
Show Notes:
Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.
Paula: So, welcome to this episode of Lets Talk Loyalty.
Paula: And today, I am delighted to be back in my favorite industry, which is the airline industry.
Paula: And talking about airline loyalty programs, to me, is always super exciting and inspiring.
Paula: And many of you will know that’s particularly because loyalty programs were originally developed and created for airlines in the United States.
Paula: So there’s a real history of innovation and passion for looking after customers.
Paula: And today is no exception.
Paula: So I’m really excited to be interviewing Kim Hardaker, who is the head of the Etihad Guest program.
Paula: Now, I did originally plan to interview Kim about three months ago, back in February or March of this year.
Paula: But clearly, the current airline situation has some unprecedented challenges.
Paula: But actually, what I’m discovering is that out of those extraordinary challenges, are coming some incredibly exciting ideas for Loyalty programs.
Paula: So we’re going to talk through today all of the various opportunities that Etihad Guest has brought for its members to enjoy that program.
Paula: So without further ado, let me welcome Kim Hardaker to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Kim: Hi Paula, lovely to talk to you.
Paula: You too.
Paula: Great, great.
Paula: How is life in Abu Dhabi today?
Kim: It is getting a little warm in these parts at the moment.
Paula: Yes, I always say to people, actually, if they haven’t been to the UAE, it’s always either like hot or very hot.
Paula: So certainly for us, we’re at the very hot.
Paula: And in fact, we recorded 54 degrees Celsius in the car here last weekend.
Kim: Oh, wow.
Kim: Yes, yes.
Kim: I mean, it’s one of those things, isn’t it?
Kim: The beginning of the year is just absolutely delightful.
Kim: Then we can’t we can’t complain having sun all year round, can we?
Paula: We’re very, very lucky.
Paula: Great stuff, Kim.
Paula: Well, listen, I know you’ve listened to the show a couple of times.
Paula: You’re more than prepared to talk about your favorite loyalty statistic.
Kim: Indeed.
Paula: Yes.
Paula: Tell us first and foremost, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?
Kim: It was a tough one, actually, Paula.
Kim: I did have to think long and hard because I am a little bit of a data nerd, and as you can imagine, being a loyalty expert, there is absolutely no shortage of data, especially when you have 7 million plus members.
Kim: We record a lot, but actually, I decided to go with one that was not a statistic of our own, but one that I had learned about.
Kim: We were at the Loyalty Awards Conference in Vancouver in February, and in one of the breakout sessions, there was a discussion which was researched from the US Space Agency, JD Powers.
Kim: They had done an airline loyalty survey in 2019, and their statistic has just absolutely stuck with me since that time, in that of their research, and it’s dominantly of the Americans or North American carriers, is that 45 percent of those members were not aware of how to earn or burn miles.
Kim: It just really stuck with me of, I think when you’re living and breathing loyalty, and you’re constantly evolving, and you think with your communications, because obviously, using that database to communicate to so many, I think you just maybe get a little bit assumptions that everybody really does understand the benefits that they have from being a member of the program.
Kim: I also think back to my early days before I was a member of a loyalty program, and my dad was, so I think I always knew a lot about it, but I’m trying to convince my friends of why you would get a Cobra and credit card, and I think some people are just naturally exposed to that, and really do understand the value where others don’t, and that really played to that and has inspired, actually, my team and I to think about, okay, how do we make sure people really do understand the value of being part of this community and a member of our program, and simplifying it, I suppose, so that the rewards equal happiness and happiness equals engagement.
Paula: Love it.
Paula: Wow.
Paula: Well, first of all, 7 million members, that’s extraordinary.
Paula: I wasn’t up to date on how many you had.
Paula: So that’s incredible.
Paula: I know you’ve been driving that now.
Paula: You’re what, nearly three years in this role?
Kim: Actually, 18 months in this role.
Paula: Okay, wow.
Paula: And you’ve been doing a huge amount ever since.
Paula: Yeah.
Kim: I’ve been very busy.
Kim: Yes, indeed.
Paula: I almost don’t know where to start, Kim.
Paula: But anyway, listen, the most interesting thing always really for me is to start with understanding even how did you end up in loyalty?
Paula: Because as you said, you’re a bit of a data nerd.
Paula: I see lots of, you know, digital background in terms of your career in, I believe it’s Australia.
Paula: Am I right with the background?
Kim: Yes, yes, you are.
Paula: Okay, great.
Paula: So you’re from Australia and you did loads in digital.
Paula: So how did you end up on the loyalty side of Etihad?
Kim: So I actually started my career in marketing and advertising.
Kim: And I think if you know, reflecting close to 20 years in the industry, everything that I ever did throughout my career has had the customer at the heart.
Kim: So whether it’s the mindset of the shopper, how they interpret advertising, I’ve done quite a lot of market research.
Kim: So it feels like a natural evolution.
Kim: So I worked a lot in agencies, including some larger agencies around the world, like Ogilvy and Maver.
Kim: And my progression from there was moving into digital with some digital agencies as well, and then into Qantas Loyalty in 2012.
Kim: So I headed up their digital loyalty team to advance our different platforms, and quite a broad business, as you and many of our listeners would know, with their seven different business units.
Kim: That was my foray into loyalty in its official term.
Paula: Okay.
Kim: Yeah, very much felt like an organic transition.
Kim: And then from Qantas Loyalty over to Etihad Airways in 2015, where I joined what was the Global Loyalty Company.
Kim: So we had a collection of loyalty programs in addition to Etihad Guest, which I was heading up the digital for that team as well.
Paula: Yeah.
Kim: So yeah.
Kim: And as I said, moved into Etihad Guest to lead the program in November.
Kim: And it very much was utilizing, I suppose, all the experience over the years, and in particular, taking cues from the digital experience to really take that forward, because I think it’s, loyalty is synonymous with an excellent experience and a seamless experience these days.
Kim: So it was being able to put those or blend those together to really take the program forward.
Paula: And I love that actually, Kim, because I can see a huge amount on the Etihad website about innovation.
Paula: And I do agree, like really, you know, traditional frequent flyer programs really have to keep up to date with digital and new experiences.
Paula: And I know you’ve been doing loads, particularly at these current challenging times.
Paula: So as I said in the intro, we originally were planning to have a chat back in March and record this podcast.
Paula: But then things totally changed.
Paula: So tell us how is Etihad and Etihad Guest specifically, I suppose, in terms of your team, how are you dealing with COVID and what kind of initiatives have you launched?
Kim: So we actually, COVID has been an interesting time, I think, for all of us and forced a lot of reflection.
Kim: We re-launched the program in 2019, so in November.
Kim: So we re-branded and re-launched.
Kim: And so we’ve very much been on this sort of self-exploration and sort of evolution of the program.
Kim: And so we were using some of those techniques and the approach to customer research or really engaging our members in our program to really define our roadmap and move forward.
Kim: So from a COVID perspective, we absolutely continued that in regards to asking our members what are they looking for from Loyalty?
Kim: And we will absolutely continue to do that because I think this space is, we don’t necessarily know, right?
Kim: Every day is a new day and there’s new challenges and new opportunities that are presenting themselves.
Kim: And really why we can influence our direction from a business point of view, it’s, you know, there is nothing more valuable than the input that we have directly from our members.
Kim: So, but I think there’s also been some opportunities, as I said, and you will have seen, we launched our new Etihad Guest mobile app, which actually enabled a new opportunity to engage with our members through a variety of different features and functionalities and probably one of our favorite, which came at the right time in regards to creating more opportunities to engage when not so many planes were flying, which was the seamless redemption, real-time redemption and accrual with our app inside our Aldar malls here in Abu Dhabi.
Kim: So, three of the biggest properties across Abu Dhabi, which was a world first in regards to that process for the real-time or seamless redemption.
Kim: So, many Loyalty programs, I mean, it’s a challenge we tried to crack at Qantas as well, but quite difficult if you don’t control that ecosystem or that environment.
Kim: And the app has just been such a fantastic touch point for us.
Kim: And I think we all know in Loyalty that mobile engagement is absolutely desired and definitely does help members engage with our programs on the go.
Kim: And we’ve seen some wonderful results and actually increase in customer engagement rates across the program as a whole since COVID started.
Kim: So I think, you know, we clearly, the discussions and engaging our members is really helping us to make sure that we’re doing the best for them and making them feel nurtured and special and are pleased to engage with us, because I think a lot of people still do want to engage with the brand and the program and the airline, even though they aren’t flying, because that aspiration and that desire to travel does not go away.
Kim: So I think we’re really comfortable with what we’ve done.
Kim: We’ve also done a lot of other initiatives.
Kim: And I know there’s lots of discussion about everybody’s been doing their bit across the different industries from Loyalty, that we’ve gifted our members monthly tier miles.
Kim: So to help them on their way to maintaining and upgrading their tier.
Kim: We’ve also reduced our criteria as well to make that easier.
Kim: So we’re actually seeing lots of upgrades in the program too, as well as reinstated any expired miles ahead of our new rule launching in August.
Kim: So no shortage of bits and pieces.
Kim: And I think one more, if I have the time, Paula.
Kim: Yeah.
Kim: Our new brand campaign, which was internally known as Moments of Thoughtfulness.
Kim: So from across the conversations we had with our members and what we could see going on in the world is that there was, you know, well, these amongst the, you know, the confusion and the whirlwind of the chaos.
Paula: Chaos.
Kim: Chaos, yes.
Paula: Yes.
Kim: Optimistic word for that.
Kim: I lived the chaos.
Kim: There was lots of wonderful things happening still, these beautiful moments of kindness and people really trying to do their bit for their communities or their loved ones.
Kim: And so we worked closely with one of our agencies and built this campaign, which, as I said, called Moments of Thoughtfulness.
Kim: It was really most importantly about just creating a platform for people to share these stories and say thank you and put some good into the world.
Kim: And we’ve just been overwhelmed with just these heartfelt stories.
Kim: It’s been an absolute joy to read those and just, as you say, amidst the chaos, shows how beautiful the world can be.
Kim: And so, those that have been chosen of being the most kind and generous have been delivered boxes of all the things that they love that we’ve curated with the person that’s nominating them.
Kim: So, yeah, keep your eyes out on our social channels and our web and on email.
Kim: So, we’re sharing some of those stories and we’ll be sharing more of them soon.
Kim: It’s just, yeah, it’s really lovely to see.
Kim: We really do want to hold that or keep that open because the stories just keep on coming.
Kim: So, it’s clear that people want to share this at this time.
Paula: And it’s a lovely idea, Kim.
Paula: And I think on the show, and you will have heard me saying this I’m sure many times, you know, we’ve all talked about transactional loyalty and now we all talk about emotional loyalty.
Paula: But actually, the consumers obviously don’t hear that language.
Paula: What they see and feel is a brand that actually is giving them an opportunity to be a human being that is going through chaos that may be completely freaked out.
Paula: And I think we are perhaps unique in this part of the world, Kim.
Paula: I don’t know about you, but for me, not to be able to get home to Ireland, you know, probably four or five times a year is extremely unusual.
Paula: And I never felt far from home living in the UAE until COVID hit.
Paula: So I’m certainly missing family and friends much more.
Paula: And despite all the Zooms, and we have all of these obviously fabulous solutions, but I love the fact that you’re giving people an opportunity to be generous about people clearly that they love.
Paula: And, you know, even to put them into that mindset, I just think that’s a gorgeous campaign.
Paula: So really love what you’re doing with that.
Kim: Thank you, Paula.
Paula: Yeah, amazing.
Paula: So tell me, when did it launch, Kim?
Paula: We’ll be probably releasing this podcast now in a couple of weeks’ time.
Paula: So I’m just keen to make sure we can link so listeners can have a look, particularly, you know, anybody looking for new ideas about ways to drive their emotional loyalty.
Kim: So we did the shout out or the nomination call middle of June, and we’ve been hearing, heroing both the nominations and what we’re calling the unboxing.
Kim: So the gifts that have been sent, you know, when the receivers are sort of, you know, unwrapping their gifts of loveliness and thoughtfulness from the nominator.
Kim: So they are on our social media channels.
Kim: What I will do, we shortly will be launching a hub for this content as well to show some of these videos and also some of the longer form nominations.
Kim: So I will send that through to you in the next couple of days and you can pop that in the show notes.
Paula: Awesome.
Paula: That’s brilliant.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: So yes, a very heartfelt, in fact, you know, I was looking at another campaign recently, just McDonald’s, which, you know, doesn’t have a loyalty program in the USA, although it does in other countries.
Paula: And again, they were doing like a Pay It Forward campaign where you could gift cups of coffee.
Paula: So I think, yes, clever brands that understand what customers want are really tuning into this opportunity to be of service, I guess, you know?
Paula: I mean, this isn’t something that is serving Etihad in any commercial way.
Paula: So I love the, I suppose, the integrity around the whole thing.
Kim: And I think that, as you say, it’s showing flexibility of brands and that it can be many things to many people.
Kim: And that really was the absolutely most important thing to us, is this is not us creating this.
Kim: The content is, is nomination done on members’ own accord and really just helping us, as you say, of service or inspiring a larger movement of thoughtfulness in such a chaotic time.
Paula: And it even actually resonates with something you mentioned in passing there, Kim, just earlier when we were chatting.
Paula: You used a word that I’m a huge fan of and one I’ll be doing a whole show on, which is the idea of simplicity.
Paula: And I think it taps into your actual favorite loyalty statistic that 45% of members have no idea how to earn or burn on their miles.
Paula: I mean, what are we doing?
Kim: And what are we doing wrong?
Paula: You know, OK, you know, we’ll have to put a hand up and go, yeah, there’s work to be done.
Paula: But tell me about simplicity.
Paula: Is that something that you’re working into your program as well?
Kim: Absolutely.
Kim: Look, I think it’s a 101 of a variety of different streams throughout, you know, through a communications perspective, a marketing perspective and digital as well.
Kim: I think we underestimate how important simplicity is.
Kim: And especially these days, not only the simplicity of being able to understand the message that we’re communicating, but also the simplicity of being able to use a tool or get access to the features and benefits that are known and loved.
Kim: So it’s sort of a, it is a pillar of our strategy and something that, you know, almost, it’s just a mandatory.
Kim: So for everything that we do.
Kim: So, and I think traditionally with loyalty programs, it’s not always easy to do that.
Kim: Because by nature, these legacy systems, which, you know, power big parts of our business are not always flexible.
Kim: They’re often not startups that are, you know, working in this space.
Kim: So we are absolutely, you know, as I said, it’s a core part of our strategy, but, you know, constantly looking for partners that can enable that for us to help us move at pace.
Kim: Because I think the appetite to simplify engaging with us and talking to us is, you know, it’s not going to stop, I don’t think.
Kim: And nor should it, I think it’s completely fair for our customers and, you know, we’re customers at the end of the day as well of these businesses and programs.
Kim: So I think it’s always good to reflect as to, you know, what you would expect and how we can make sure we can deliver that as fast as we can to those that are most important to us.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Well, I love to hear it’s a pillar of your strategy, Kim, because again, I think there’s a lot of people out there with very big strategies, but, you know, that tend to be forgotten.
Paula: So I’ve been guilty of that in the past, going doing a big vision.
Paula: And then, you know, you get into execution mode and the vision sometimes gets, you know, forgotten along the way, let’s say quickly in the review mirror.
Paula: Well done you.
Paula: And the other piece I wanted to ask you about really, I suppose, is the measurement side, Kim.
Paula: So there is a lot going on and I don’t know if it’s changed or if it stayed the same.
Paula: But from an Etihad Guest perspective, what kind of KPIs are you, I suppose, most focused on on them delivering for the brand?
Kim: So as I said at the beginning, there is absolutely no shortage of KPIs in the way that we measure our contribution, the engagement within our program.
Kim: So probably one that I do really enjoy talking about and we’re focusing a lot on at the moment is what we’ve built as our customer engagement score.
Kim: So it’s taking all, it’s sort of culminating some of those metrics that every loyalty program would be measuring in regards to active members.
Kim: It takes into account the accrual and the redemption behavior.
Kim: And we also measure the engagement with our various different communication channels.
Kim: So it helps us actually really widen our view of how people are engaging with the program, how they are doing that, where we think we need to be able to maybe focus more attention on.
Kim: And we also have filters on that in regards to countries of residence, in regards to the tier difference, so we can cut that pie however we need to, to ensure that we are able to take those different lenses.
Kim: But, you know, quite something that we will absolutely build on.
Kim: And it’s stitching together scores like that with our revenue contribution, our passenger penetration numbers, our revenue penetration numbers.
Kim: So it’s something we’re sort of using at the core and then build out other metrics around that.
Paula: Okay, wow.
Paula: And again, it sounds like you’re simplifying a lot of data into one customer engagement score, yeah?
Kim: Absolutely.
Kim: And I think it’s because you can, as the saying goes, analysis paralysis, I think, when you have so many different factors.
Kim: We tried to, I suppose, add a little bit of shape to that to be able to tell a better story, other than looking at these in sort of one dimensional view.
Kim: Especially when these numbers get circulated around the organization.
Kim: Not everybody understands what an active member is.
Kim: Not everybody understands what the passenger penetration is for loyalty.
Kim: So if we can circulate, I suppose, as you say, simplify a number that does tell the most influential or fully fledged story that we can, that’s absolutely what we’re trying to do because, yeah, there will be no shortage of numbers, but it’s key that we can get the elevator pitch with some good metrics like this custom engagement score.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: Fantastic.
Paula: The other campaign, actually, Kim, I wanted to ask you about, I know you’ve done a lot of work with them, allowing members to transfer miles from other programs, and I saw a huge number of programs that people couldn’t transfer miles.
Paula: I don’t think I’d seen such a broad range actually.
Paula: So is that one of your newer campaigns or is that part of your existing value proposition?
Kim: So the transfer miles partners that we have on board, so as you say, we do have a lot, and that has been growing over the years, especially as we become a little bit more prominent in certain markets.
Kim: Though the campaign that we did most recently was also encouraging members to transfer their miles from other loyalty programs that they may or not be using right now, and that they would also be able to earn or accrue two-tier miles along with those transfers.
Kim: So that’s the eager, obviously, to keep working towards that next tier.
Kim: We can help do that.
Kim: It’s also actually built on some insights that we got our hands on in regards to how many loyalty points actually expire from different programs, especially in somewhat of a pause right now.
Kim: So we know that obviously using our miles, Etihad Guest miles, is the aspiration is absolutely to travel.
Kim: So for those to be able to convert those, while they may not be using them from other programs right now, means that they’ve got something to look forward to, maybe from a tier bump and also a flight in the not too distant future.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And you’ve prompted a thought, actually, Kim, and I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but it is reminded me of some other lovely work you guys did around the charity sector where I know, Etihad Guest members could again donate miles.
Paula: Was that, I think that was even pre-COVID, was it or was that part of your response to the current situation?
Kim: So we do have an Always On donation, and we work with a variety of different charities here in the UAE and globally.
Kim: So the one you might be talking about, Paula, is we did a Australian bushfire donation in sort of January, February time in which our miles were donated to Wires, sorry, the World and the Rescue Service in Australia.
Kim: And the response was absolutely overwhelming with the number of members around the world that were contributing, I think just trying to do their little bit during that time.
Kim: And then what we partnered with Emirates Red Crescent and UNHCR during COVID as well, so that people could help again, both globally and locally.
Kim: And again, just an absolutely phenomenal response from our members to contribute to things such as ventilators, hand soap, various other bits and pieces to help those, you know, less fortunate.
Kim: And we were so touched by the response from our members that we actually matched those donations too.
Kim: So Etihad Group contributed a significant amount of miles there as well, just to ensure we did a little bit as well and joined our members in their generosity.
Paula: So incredible amount of stuff going on.
Paula: I know just in terms of destinations, Etihad I think is up to, back up to over 50 destinations.
Paula: So already back in the skies, super excited.
Paula: I saw lovely messages from your CEO and all of that on your website.
Paula: So I can see how much is going on from the loyalty perspective.
Paula: Is there anything that I haven’t touched on, Kim, that you also thought might be interesting for listeners?
Kim: I think I mentioned our mobile app already.
Kim: That’s probably our most exciting little baby at the moment.
Kim: But actually miles expiry rules.
Kim: So we did some communication around that when we relaunched the program.
Kim: We announced that in July.
Kim: So just recently we talked through the details of that.
Kim: So at this present moment and for the years before, we’ve always had a time-based expiry rule.
Kim: Depending on what tier you hold with us would define when your miles would expire if you did not redeem them in advance.
Kim: So in our discussions with our members through a variety of different channels, it was really clear that that was probably our biggest pain point because nobody wants to lose miles that they’ve worked so hard to earn, especially when maybe opportunities, times like now is a great example when we don’t quite have the opportunities to redeem them in the way that I would like to redeem them.
Kim: So we’ve moved to an activity-based expiry rule.
Kim: So members of the program need to do either one, earn or burn transaction in the program every 18 months to keep their miles alive or active, as you would say.
Kim: For Platinum, we’ve completely removed that.
Kim: So while the Platinum hold their tier status, that their miles will not expire at all.
Kim: And so we’re thrilled to be able to offer this, especially at this time when members are not flying as much as they would like to, even though there is a number of other initiatives and the ways they can spend their miles, it means that they can definitely have them in the bank for when they are ready to travel.
Kim: So definitely something that I think was probably long overdue for us and something that we absolutely know our members were wanting and are definitely happy to receive.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: And just Kim, as you mentioned quite a few times, I love hearing how much that you are aware of your customers, encouraging them and literally inviting that feedback.
Paula: It sounds like literally on an ongoing basis, what format does that take just out of interest?
Paula: Do you do it through digital channels or is it, is it more qualitative research in focus groups or Zoom or how does that process works?
Paula: Just to give me a sense of that.
Kim: We use all channels actually.
Kim: So we have a what we call a customer advisory board, which contains a lot of our or a handful of our members through various different tiers.
Kim: So those forums in which we talk to them not just about loyalty, but also other products and services that we may be enhancing or wishing to take feedback on.
Kim: We have surveys.
Kim: So we do regular surveys of our members that are happy to participate in that.
Kim: And we’ve also done face to face interviews one on one.
Kim: So I’m also personally in contact with quite a lot of members that we’ve met.
Kim: Wow.
Kim: So no shortage of WhatsApp conversations as well.
Kim: Asking, and I think it’s just building relationships with these members that are really committed to us and have spent a lot of time and engaged in our brand.
Kim: So I personally am really grateful to be able to have that kind of relationship with our members and it just means we are able to have real time feedback.
Kim: So we try to create as many different ways for those members to communicate with us, whether it’s also via email, whether it’s through myself or other members of our team.
Kim: So it really is, I suppose, changing that approach to make us much more accessible as a Loyalty program and a community of like minded people for our members.
Kim: So bringing us closer together in various different ways.
Paula: Yeah, love it.
Paula: And actually community is another topic I’ll be talking about on a podcast coming to a station near you soon.
Paula: So you’re picking up on all of the same ideas that I am.
Paula: So I always love to think actually about the community of Loyalty members, because as you said earlier, they don’t want to be seen as numbers.
Paula: They really are part of the brand.
Paula: And I was thinking as you were saying that as well, Kim, something that I really love in this part of the world, it’s epitomized in the Etihad name and in the brand, because I know it translates to national.
Paula: Am I right?
Paula: Etihad in Arabic means national in English.
Kim: Sorry, Paula interrupted you.
Kim: My understanding is united.
Paula: United, okay, oh, even nicer.
Kim: We might need to be corrected, but that’s my understanding.
Paula: Okay, wonderful.
Paula: But I know, for example, there’s a real sense of pride.
Paula: So this country is supremely proud of everything that it does.
Paula: And that’s what I hear when people talk about Etihad all of the time.
Paula: So whatever the direct translation is, you’re right, the brand is something that everyone in this country goes, oh my goodness, that’s our flag carrier.
Paula: I absolutely love the work you’re doing.
Paula: So yeah, just from my side, wanted to say well done on everything that Etihad is doing.
Paula: Well done on a beautiful loyalty program with Etihad Guest.
Paula: And just wanted to say thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Kim: Thank you, Paula.
Kim: It’s been lovely to speak with you.
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