Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.
Paula: Thank you.
Paula: So, today, I am particularly excited to be interviewing Mike Atkin, a man who, to my mind, is probably one of the real godfathers of loyalty.
Paula: And I’ll never forget the first time I saw Mike presenting, and he was running a training course on loyalty programs here in the Middle East.
Paula: And as part of his introduction to the classroom, he casually mentioned in conversation that he has run or set up over 85 loyalty programs already in his career.
Paula: So naturally, I was super impressed.
Paula: And I know for a fact, if there was ever a time where I would have to ask an expert opinion on anything to do with my work, Mike would be the man that I would call.
Paula: So in preparation for the podcast, obviously I asked Mike to send over his bio.
Paula: So I’m gonna start by reading through all of that because there’s no way I could do justice to his expertise without going through all of this detail.
Paula: So let me just go through that, and then we’ll get into a fantastic conversation with Mike.
Paula: So Mike Atkin is a highly respected industry expert, already with over 30 years experience across loyalty and customer management.
Paula: And this has included working across most vertical markets that you can imagine, from retail, finance and banking, through to FMCG, specialty retail, from airlines to telecommunications, and also fuel retail and utilities.
Paula: Now, as a leading authority on everything in the business, he covers loyalty program strategy, data analytics, very strong on loyalty technology, which we’ll talk about some more, and rewards management.
Paula: And as a result of that comprehensive expertise, he has worked with several global loyalty programs to enhance their customer value propositions.
Paula: In particular, Mike is recognized as one of the leading authorities on coalition programs, and has specifically worked on 10 of the most successful schemes.
Paula: And in particular, he was part of the due diligence team that was appointed by American Express before they acquired the payback program in Germany, which must be one of the biggest in the world.
Paula: His client portfolio reads like a who’s who of blue chip brands.
Paula: It includes Tesco, Amia for the Nectar program, American Express, Visa and MasterCard, BP, Shell, Boots, Morrisons, Avis, Investec, SBG, British Shareways, Virgin Group and EMAR.
Paula: Now, not only that, but a number of years back, Mike realized there was a real need from the client side to have a comprehensive overview of the capabilities that were available within the loyalty technology platforms on offer.
Paula: So he decided to benchmark over 65 solutions worldwide and it effectively created a database of all of the functionality and capabilities available to support loyalty programs.
Paula: Now, as a result of that, as he can imagine, Mike is responsible for both creating and managing technology briefs, which are obviously called RFPs.
Paula: Many of you will know the term.
Paula: So for client companies who are either bringing in a loyalty platform for the first time or maybe considering changing one that’s already in the business.
Paula: His current projects include the design and development of a major program of the UK rail industry, an exciting new solution for financial services sector, as well as delivering training and master classes on customer loyalty around the globe.
Paula: Mike describes himself as an effective communicator with excellent interpersonal skills.
Paula: And he really does have a track record of implementing change both successfully and efficiently based on a thorough understanding of the loyalty industry.
Paula: So Mike, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Mike: Thank you Paula.
Paula: So Mike, first and foremost, and that’s a hell of an introduction.
Paula: You’ve an incredible amount of expertise.
Paula: I know I was hoping to have you as my very first guest on the show.
Paula: I think we’ll be going out now as episode three or four.
Paula: And I’ve really been looking forward to the conversation just purely because the breadth of expertise that you have available.
Paula: And I guess the first place that I’m starting with most of the guests, as you know, is asking about favorite industry statistics.
Paula: And I think the reason I decided that might be a really interesting way to start is literally, I think we all need to be able to explain the benefits of loyalty programs on a regular basis.
Paula: Because certainly for me as a consultant, I often find I have to defend them because some people see them just as a cost rather than as obviously as a successful marketing initiative.
Paula: So tell me, just to get us kickstarted, what are your favorite industry statistics?
Mike: I think there’s quite a few, and I tend to use different ones depending on the audience, if you like.
Mike: Often the problem is to convince the businesses to invest in loyalty, and that’s one of the frustrations that you’ll find out as we go ahead.
Mike: I think the most recent one I’ve seen from Accenture identifies that after building a relationship with a customer, the customer spend grows alongside the trust.
Mike: And eventually loyal customers spend up to 67% more than new ones do, which flags up the need for retention.
Mike: And that is one of my issues in terms of many companies, particularly in the banking and telco industries, who tend to be focused on acquisition rather than retention.
Mike: And it just points out that if you have a good member and that member relationship is strong and powerful, they are worth investing in.
Mike: And often that’s missed by these big businesses.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And as we go through, Mike, I’d certainly love to hear your experience in terms of how good are your clients at actually capturing that and measuring it?
Paula: Because I’ve had varying experience myself across all the different programs I’ve worked on.
Paula: Some who are super good at doing all of the data and analytics, but sometimes that comes much later than I would like.
Paula: So what’s been your experience in terms of, what is the level of discipline that you see around that kind of measurement?
Mike: I think I’d have to agree it is weak.
Mike: Often companies have invested a few years ago in massive Oracle databases, and they’ve got all this massive tera data of information on customers, but don’t know how to use it.
Mike: Interesting things that came out of my research when I was benchmarking platforms, was that often the Oracle databases could identify a good customer or what a good customer looks like or should look like.
Mike: But loyalty technology was not unable to convert that into a message, an offer, a promotion or whatever to those specific customers.
Mike: So that meant that the loyalty platform couldn’t do it, so they didn’t bother doing it.
Mike: And quite a few of my projects in the last six or nine months have been to look at why programs are failing.
Mike: And when I look at why they’re failing, it’s because all of this rich data they’ve amassed over the years, they’re just not using it.
Mike: They’re making a machine gun approach, making many offers to many people in the hope that three or four percent will perform and respond.
Mike: But in practice, they don’t.
Mike: So with the exception of probably supermarkets around the globe, not many companies actually use it very cleverly.
Mike: Although they preach it, they don’t actually practice it.
Mike: But often it’s one of two factors, it’s technology, but it’s also skill sets within the business.
Mike: They don’t actually have necessary personnel within the Loyalty Department, or indeed our Loyalty Department, that can do that work.
Mike: And again, one of my concerns in the industry that many companies just don’t take loyalty seriously enough within their business and see its potential.
Mike: It’s just another add on within the marketing department and isn’t necessarily empowered to deliver.
Paula: Well, I think you’ve picked up on a point I definitely wanted to cover Mike, so that’s actually the skills.
Paula: And I know alongside your incredible bio of what we’ve already talked about, you’ve already been instrumental in developing some kind of training, both globally and in the UK market.
Paula: So tell me about the various industry bodies that you are currently involved in or previously involved in.
Mike: Do you mean from the point of view of businesses or companies that are using the training resource?
Paula: Well, I suppose just anywhere.
Paula: So I guess I’m thinking about listeners and maybe loyalty directors or marketing directors who might be thinking, do you know what?
Paula: Actually, I don’t have enough skills in the team.
Paula: So where would you say they should go and find those skills or how can they access them?
Paula: Given that it is, I suppose in my mind, a fairly new area as a speciality skill.
Paula: So what would you recommend to somebody who is running a loyalty program and wants to optimize the skill set?
Mike: Well, one of the sort of main sources of training resources is the Loyalty Academy based in the USA, but they have through the network of the customer strategy network, then they have this network of global experts like myself who can deliver effective loyalty training either in the form of one hour, 45 minute online modules for different sectors because some companies may just want to look at, for example, the coalition programs or financial services or whatever, but also the modules cover a wide range of capabilities, or they also offer these two, three day master classes which I’m involved in whereby we get into real detail.
Mike: They’re normally small groups of eight to 10 people.
Mike: We run case studies, we do syndicate exercises so they can actually bring in their own issues and challenges and discuss them in a classroom environment.
Mike: The point I make in promoting those is there are many mistakes made around the world.
Mike: There are still mistakes being made around the world by people investing in loyalty launching programs and not necessarily getting the team right, the team trained, even the directors with all due respect don’t necessarily understand what they can and can’t do.
Mike: So there’s enough resource out there if you just put in training, but the loyaltyacademy.org based in the USA, but with global network deliveries is probably the best source of information that I’ve found.
Mike: I also know something which again, we’re probably gonna touch on what’s very much associated nowadays with loyalty is customer experience.
Mike: And there’s a great program, a module run by Michael Colleen that actually does deliver on customer experience and links it to the need for loyalty.
Mike: Because the best loyalty in the world is not gonna solve bad customer service and the two go hand in hand.
Paula: For sure.
Paula: And what I’ll do for listeners as well is I’ll put links to both of those recommendations, Mike, into the show notes.
Paula: So if anybody does want to look them up afterwards, they’ve got direct access to them.
Paula: And thank you for covering off on that.
Paula: So anyone who listened to the first episode of the show would know that I also said, I really believe in the power of ongoing learning.
Paula: So I myself went and did that Loyalty Academy program last year, and I knew you were involved in creating all of that content, and it was one of the ways that I got to know you.
Paula: And I know both of us, through the Customer Strategy Network, and through our, I suppose, our global client projects, we’re really keen for that designation to become much better known.
Paula: So the CLMP to become something that is increasingly recognized as the gold standard of education in our sector.
Mike: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Mike: I should have mentioned the CLMP, but yes, certainly that accreditation is highly valuable.
Mike: It’s now being recognized, I think, by many companies.
Mike: I’ve heard a couple of businesses I’ve been speaking to recently who recognize that accreditation, and that gives them that peace of mind that they’re talking to somebody who knows what they’re talking about.
Paula: Fantastic, great.
Paula: So tell me, Mike, what is it you actually like about working in the loyalty industry?
Paula: You’ve been doing it for a long time, so clearly it’s taken a lot of boxes for you.
Mike: Yes, it’s interesting.
Mike: I still get excited about it in turn because I think many loyalty consultants around the globe can look at many programs in their area or across the globe and think, well, it could be better.
Mike: I don’t mean that from an arrogant point of view, but we all see these opportunities that a loyalty program could perform better because it has certain strengths or weaknesses.
Mike: And the attraction for me is that challenge of convincing a client that what I see as an opportunity they recognize as a need, I need to improve my program.
Mike: So that’s what keeps me going, is seeing these programs and looking at them, reading about them, seeing how they perform, visiting the store, joining, whatever it is.
Mike: And I get a buzz out of understanding and thinking to myself, well, I could see how this could be so much better if you did this.
Mike: And that’s what gives me the buzz.
Mike: But also on the training side, I speak to loyalty consultants.
Mike: I get a lot of MBA students because I used to be involved with Oxford said business group, people doing MBAs and writing articles on marketing.
Mike: Many come on to me and say, I’ve written this dissertation.
Mike: Can you give me some insight?
Mike: Would you make a comment?
Mike: And whilst that’s a bit of a chore in some respects, these people could be the future sort of loyalty director at Tesco.
Mike: So you can sort of respond.
Mike: And I get a buzz out of seeing these youngsters who are actually coming into the business and learning from it.
Mike: And I’ve got a couple of good examples of people who’ve been on my training courses, who’ve gone away armed with lots of information and gone back to their bosses and said, look, we can do this, we can do that.
Mike: And that’s turned into a better program and more importantly, a better career process for them as well.
Mike: So it’s the training, but also the opportunities.
Mike: I see many, many programs.
Mike: I’d love to get my hands on if you like.
Paula: Well, actually, I often think that, and next, I’d love to just get an understanding of all the loyalty programs you’ve worked on, maybe which one is your favorite.
Paula: And if there are any that you kind of go, there’s one that really maybe I haven’t worked on, maybe in a different country, and I really would love to get my hands on it.
Paula: If there’s anything like that, I’d also be keen to hear about them.
Mike: Okay, yeah, well, I think probably my favorite would have to be Tesco.
Mike: I think from the early days of Tesco, who were very clever the way they launched their program, because they weren’t first to market.
Mike: Sainsbury’s were out there with programs and in the way way back, and I’m showing my age now, that Tesco used to issue green shield stamps that used to be the way they did in the late 70s and they suddenly stopped that.
Mike: But other people came on board with programs and a supermarket chain called Summerfield had a points program that I was involved in.
Mike: But Tesco’s held back and said, let’s get all of our systems in place.
Mike: Let’s get crushes in the stores.
Mike: Let’s get sort of customer service sorted and extra tills and train staff and et cetera, et cetera.
Mike: Then they launched a program and called it Thank You, or for people being patient and bearing with them.
Mike: I think it’s gone from strength to strength because they are customer focused.
Mike: That’s their initiative.
Mike: Many programs are not customer focused.
Mike: They’re product focused.
Mike: And I make no apologies for blaming banks who are preoccupied issuing a new credit card because they think that will do it, you know, sort of thing.
Mike: But Tesco’s for me have been right through.
Mike: And of course, then they got the association with Clive Humby and they developed this data analytics capability of customer, collecting customer data, converting it into insight, which enabled them to offer these targeted offers.
Mike: And whenever I travel around the world, often the Tesco case study is what the supermarkets want to hear because they recognize that as best practices.
Mike: So I would have to say the fact that they are customer focused.
Mike: And I recall two or three years ago, their chief executive announcing as part of their annual reports that without Tesco Club Card, it would be like flying blind.
Mike: It determined where they opened their stores, what products they sold, how they sold them, how they presented them.
Mike: And that was all based on what the customer was telling them.
Mike: And that’s why they have this affinity in terms of relationship with customers.
Mike: And just to throw another statistic, I think 67% of the UK population are members of Tesco program.
Mike: And that speaks volumes.
Paula: It really does.
Paula: My goodness.
Paula: And you made the point earlier, Mike, that when we were talking a bit about statistics, that actually supermarkets was the sector that you, I suppose, really identified as the one that really is getting the analytics right, which did surprise me because I would have assumed, I mean, I’ve got a bit of a background in airlines and many years ago, but in my, you know, I suppose consumer perception, I would have thought maybe the airlines and hotels had better data.
Paula: But maybe, do you think it’s the frequency that gives the supermarket the edge in terms of the analytics or is it just the industry overall?
Mike: I think the fact that one of the weaknesses in collecting data is that many companies base their analytics on transactional data.
Mike: How much they spend, when they spend, what they spend, what, et cetera, et cetera.
Mike: The detail for me is that lifestyle data, those attributes, those likes, those dislikes, data is digital, life is analog, we change jobs, we have kids that go to university.
Mike: And Tesco’s are very clever, along with many other supermarkets around the globe who interpret that based on what’s bought, the type of family they are, are they buying food that they want to do specialty dining?
Mike: Have they got young kids?
Mike: Are they buying cereals?
Mike: Are they buying nappies?
Mike: All of that gives you an insight.
Mike: And that’s where the likes of Tesco and Ivesa Lunga in Italy are very good at this, who look at the data and interpret that.
Mike: So they make an offer to the customer that’s relevant.
Mike: The airlines and the hotels are very good, but they’re really only possibly their purito’s law, I suppose.
Mike: They’re looking at their top 20% customers.
Mike: But many of us around the world have never got enough airlines miles to fly anywhere.
Mike: So the interaction is infrequent.
Mike: We fly once or twice a year.
Mike: And certainly with the hotels, unless we are a business person that spends lots of time in hotels, these programs are not very attractive.
Mike: So I think I’d have to agree that in terms of looking after their top customers, their tiering processes in car hire, and hotels and airlines is very good, but they are looking at a small segment of the market.
Mike: And I think they’re missing out on the potential customers who could one day be better.
Mike: And I am a sad person and joined many of these programs there are quite a few that I’ve flown.
Mike: Well, I’ve flown with them once or twice, and I get little or no interaction from them.
Mike: They’re not asking me how often I fly.
Mike: I might have flown with them because they were the only airline that had that particular trip I’m reading.
Mike: Whereas with the likes of BA and Emirates, which are my two big ones, I have a dialogue with them and they’re making me offers that are relevant to me because they know where I fly, etc.
Mike: So I think there’s two different types, I suppose, if you’re looking at your top 20% customers, the high net worth individuals, and they’re the ones, of course, we’re all looking for, that’s our pretos law, 20% of our customers are going to drive 80% of our business.
Mike: Whereas the supermarkets, by nature of the beast, they have to be more holistic and offer it to a range of customers.
Mike: They don’t want to exclude anybody.
Mike: And I find that they do tend to develop customers and move customers up through the decile very cleverly by promoting offers that are relevant to them, not based on what they’re buying, but what they think they could be buying because of other products they buy in store, if that answered the question.
Paula: It really does, Mike.
Paula: I think what I’m hearing there is very much a two-tier level of performance in infrequent programs.
Paula: I hadn’t really thought about that point before.
Paula: Yes, if I am a gold card holder with Emirates or any airline, in fact, obviously I get the best possible experience, including the rewards and the whole gamut of the program.
Paula: But actually, if you only fly infrequently, you don’t really have the chance to enjoy the loyalty program.
Paula: So I guess it means that there’s maybe a long tail or partnership opportunities within that sector that I’ll certainly be keen to explore when I talk to those kind of sectors.
Mike: Yes, one of the interesting things in the UK, very clever with Sainsbury’s, when they got involved with Nectar, then they did the deal or a deal was done in conjunction with Sainsbury’s and Nectar did the negotiation with EasyJet.
Mike: Because these people who are regular customers in Sainsbury’s fly EasyJet.
Mike: And the problem with airlines is there’s normally blackout days and there’s limited availability and it’s all that sort of awkward stuff of having the right sort of miles.
Mike: And I have to admit that using air miles to make a flight for me to Paris is an expensive way of doing it when I can buy it for 50 pounds.
Mike: So the 5,000 air miles.
Mike: But the fact that this deal was done with Nectar, where if you have enough points, you just use it to buy a flight, it’s no different to you always paying cash.
Mike: And that works extremely well for them.
Mike: It’s one of the most attractive rewards because your average spender in the UK can take a flight perhaps to Spain or Italy once a year, and he can use his loyalty points to do that.
Mike: The airlines are missing out on that customer because some of them try to have relationships with supermarkets, Shell, work with Tescos, and you can convert your Shell points into Tesco, convert Tesco into AMRs, et cetera.
Mike: But not many are doing enough about it to attract this sort of decile four, five and six who could do an annual trip with an Emirates or a BA.
Mike: They’re missing out on that, in my opinion.
Paula: Okay, so that’s a key outtake, Mike.
Paula: I really like that.
Paula: So where we’ve all been focusing on the top tiers, really don’t forget about the lower tiers and the big opportunity, which might have been ignored in the initial stages and really focus on those now.
Mike: I agree, yeah.
Paula: Cool.
Mike: That’s certainly my approach.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: So tell us, what do you think then?
Paula: What are the key maybe success factors for a loyalty program?
Paula: Where’s the best place to start?
Mike: When I look at why programs fail, and it’s in the early stages, is a lack of a clear strategy.
Mike: I’ve had companies in the past who got in touch with me and said, we want to give our customers points.
Mike: And I say, why?
Mike: And they look around the room, or we want to do a loyalty program.
Mike: Okay, why?
Mike: And I think people don’t necessarily think it’s true.
Mike: With all due respect to some of these C-suite directors, they think this is a fast quick fix, if you like.
Mike: To me, it’s in the planning.
Mike: You need to get that planning right.
Mike: And this is why you should go to an expert who’s been there, done there, got the t-shirt.
Mike: Because unless you’ve gone through that process and actually looked at what the customer value proposition is going to be, can we deliver this?
Mike: Is the amount of money that you can afford to invest in this customer going to drive extra business?
Mike: Because an accountant friend of me will often point out, buy 100, get one free.
Mike: A 1% reward is not very attractive, but it can be used very cleverly.
Mike: But I’ve walked away from several inquiries where I’ve evaluated that the value proposition that they can offer to the customer is not going to drive any incremental business.
Mike: And therefore, it’s often in the planning.
Mike: And if you want to talk a bit later about a project that I’m working on with another CSN partner later in the discussion, is that we looked at a company who launched a program two or three years ago.
Mike: They did everything right, spent a lot of money, launched it, shout about it, promoted it.
Mike: The chief executive was out there talking to customers.
Mike: And then six months later, the thing died because there was no ongoing development.
Mike: They had no strategy to move for the fact that engaged, well, they hadn’t even engaged.
Mike: They’d recruited a few million customers but actually hadn’t converted them into making that purchase or being engaged in the program.
Mike: And they’d missed billions of euros in terms of doing that.
Mike: So it’s getting the planning right in the first place.
Mike: And part of the planning has got to be that customer value proposition, because we all, when we see a new program, we automatically think what’s in it for me.
Mike: Most developed businesses around companies around the world or countries where programs have been running for some time, the consumer gets it, points mean prizes, they can do the calculation.
Mike: And if the value proposition means you’ve got to fly around the world three times to get the CD, they’re not going to engage.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And do you think that’s evolved over time, Mike?
Paula: Because I think it was something that I probably learned actually on The Loyalty Academy was that in general that the view is that consumers are doing the calculation.
Paula: Whereas in my view, I had assumed people weren’t that they were maybe too lazy and they just wanted literally an instant gift or instant gratification.
Paula: Do you think the majority of customers go to that effort to calculate the benefits?
Mike: I think the right ones do.
Mike: It’s part of building a relationship.
Mike: I mean, trust is crucial in all of these programs, as you know.
Mike: So they’ve got to trust you as a business.
Mike: And if they don’t, then the loyalty program is not going to drive any more than if you’ve got poor service or you’re selling poor products.
Mike: So I think the consumer is worldly wise because of the internet.
Mike: He knows about everything.
Mike: He’s more likely to respond to a recommendation from a friend or relative than he is from a TV ad.
Mike: He was not influenced by any of that.
Mike: So he does the maths and he looks at it.
Mike: And that’s good that he does the maths because that means he’s interested enough and he sees that.
Mike: And there are people that will go into a store and seek out the bonus offers, the bonus campaigns, the double points offers, the on-pack offers, whatever, because they’re saving up for something, because they know that if they get there, then they can wipe away for the weekend or they can take the kids to Disneyland or whatever it may be.
Mike: And it’s those customers, those ones that you’ve engaged, that you need to work on to make sure.
Mike: And I know of a couple of programs now who actually added this Amazon module of wishlist.
Mike: Put on your, tell me what it is you’re saving for.
Mike: We’ll come up with offers that says, if you buy this this month or you spend that or you buy this product, you’ll have a few more points towards your dream trip or whatever it may be.
Mike: So yeah, the customer does do the math.
Mike: Certainly, it depends on the maturity of the market.
Mike: This is the issue, the UK probably is recognized as the most mature.
Mike: The USA is fairly mature, but by their own admission, the majority of their programs are credit card focused.
Mike: And there are people who spend money and don’t really realize they’re getting 1% cash back and just deduct it off their bill every month.
Mike: They’re not engaged.
Mike: So I think it’s where the market is mature.
Mike: And as you find companies in Western Europe, probably get it in Eastern Europe, it’s growing steadily.
Mike: Places like Poland, where now Payback is also resident and taken over from the original coalition program, interesting enough.
Mike: It’s the first situation where the original coalition program hasn’t turned out to be best in market.
Mike: That’s almost unique.
Mike: In every other country, I know the first coalition has been the brand leader.
Mike: And that’s because they’ve gone in using the skills and understanding they got from running the program in Germany, working on the customers and developing relationship and recognizing the customer isn’t silly.
Mike: They want to, you know, and I think to throw another statistic at you, the fact that Payback in Germany has 95% of its points redeemed is way ahead of any of the big programs around the world.
Mike: And the other 5% goes to charity, the members choose.
Mike: So they put as much effort into getting the customer to redeem those points in order to encourage them and engage them.
Mike: When the customer is redeemed, you and I know, as many other experts know, their spending power will go up.
Mike: They’ll come in and they’ll spend more, they’ll shop the store because they see a benefit, and they’re ready to collect for the next event or reward that they’re looking for.
Paula: And that’s fascinating to me, Mike.
Paula: I would never have imagined such incredible redemption rates.
Paula: Do you think that’s happened over time as a strategy by Payback?
Paula: Because it’s obviously been a program that’s been around for a very long time, and you were one of obviously the due diligence experts, as we mentioned earlier.
Paula: So would they always have had a strategy to really drive that redemption?
Paula: Or did that come about through recognizing the bigger opportunity from Redeemers?
Mike: Yeah, I don’t think it started off with that.
Mike: It was sort of 2003, I think it was, it started.
Mike: The benefit that they have, in all due respect, is that the law of the land had to change.
Mike: They weren’t any law to program.
Mike: They weren’t allowed to operate in Germany.
Mike: They had to change legislation.
Mike: So they were first to market, and therefore they worked within the rules, and others had to play catch up.
Mike: But I think they started off, as all programs should, as an acquisition program.
Mike: It was to acquire customers to get a dialogue.
Mike: Of course, one of the main owners was Lufthansa, who had this massive database already, and they saw that they could invite these people to join this new and exciting program.
Mike: But then as it developed and they started to identify, what I recall happened was that they found that customers, when they first joined in the first two or three months, were redeeming quickly, they were redeeming for small value items.
Mike: And then they started to identify that people were hanging on to their points a lot longer because they were saving for something else.
Mike: And that’s when they started to realize, if these customers are saving for something else, let’s help them, let’s promote them.
Mike: And they started looking at the products they bought and associated products very much in Metro, which is the grocery partner and BP, the fuel partner.
Mike: And they identified add-on sales that they could get to increase the customer spend.
Mike: So the customer basket size could go up and they’d earn points more quickly.
Mike: And obviously, that’s the benefit of a coalition program where there’s many places to collect.
Mike: So they then moved, and it was probably five or six years ago, they started moving up and then putting more effort into getting people to redeem.
Mike: And they ran promotions, as happens around the world a lot now, where the points, if they’re redeemed within a certain retailer, are worth more than their face value.
Mike: So when you’re getting sort of five euros for spending 50 euros, or maybe, or 500 euros, whatever it is, you could go into lots of it was fast food restaurants, department stores where margins are high.
Mike: They would say, if you’ve got 5,000 payback points, then if you spend them in here, they could be worth 1,500 points or whatever.
Mike: They’d multiply them because the margins of the product would justify that.
Mike: And that had this desired effect, and therefore now people are encouraged to redeem, and the redemption rates are high and stay high.
Mike: They put as much effort into people to redeem rather than getting people to collect.
Mike: And it’s an interesting point.
Mike: Lots of companies spend lots of money and are always promoting double point, triple point, quadruple points.
Mike: They rarely promote encouraging people to redeem.
Mike: That is changing because laws of many lands now mean the points are valid forevermore.
Mike: As they are in the USA, you can’t make a point invalid.
Mike: Therefore, many companies now have to sequestrate funds within their business to honor that point.
Mike: Eventually, accountants would prefer to get that liability off their books.
Mike: And therefore, I’m seeing the emphasis, and that’s what’s happening in Germany.
Mike: And since American Express have taken over, they’re even more so focused on getting points off the system so they haven’t got this massive liability on their books.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: And I guess the key point, and I don’t know how measurable it is, you might have a better idea, but the redemption and the additional value of that redeemer, as well as getting it off the books, is obviously the advocacy that you get from that customer.
Paula: So as well as Paula feels amazing, she’s got her free coffee or free toast or whatever it is, the actual reward is.
Paula: But then I suppose the feel-good factor and telling other people that you got something, particularly if there’s a multiplier in place, that’s an amazing extra brand builder, I think, that brands often miss out on.
Mike: Yeah, it’s a good point, and that’s certainly the case, and that’s where social network comes in.
Mike: Very clever.
Mike: They will actually give you points if you retweet something or you like on Facebook.
Mike: And they are the best advocates is the right word.
Mike: That’s what we’re all looking for.
Mike: If you can, recommend it.
Mike: And of course, we will share that as a user experience.
Mike: Boy, I got a good deal the other day.
Mike: Did you realize that if you did this?
Paula: Yeah.
Mike: I tend to use in one of the examples I give is my daughter who has a couple of young kids, like my grandchildren.
Mike: She shops with Tesco, not because her dad used to work with Tesco, but because she sees the benefit.
Mike: It means that by shopping at Tesco’s on a normal weekly shop, she can take the kids to the cinema once a month and give them a pizza afterwards.
Mike: And they’re a satisfied customer, and she always goes to Tesco’s first.
Mike: If they’ve got everything she wants and they’re competitive on price, she has a good experience, she will stay there.
Mike: And that’s why more Tesco’s look at lifetime value, and some companies are starting to do that now, but not all actually take that into account.
Mike: Loyalty is a journey, not a destination.
Mike: You’ve got to keep working at it.
Paula: Yeah, for sure.
Paula: And I think the point about simplicity is very good as well, Mike, because the fact that someone can understand the value proposition and articulate it in a way that doesn’t require necessarily to sit down and do the maths calculation that we kind of talked about earlier.
Paula: If you can get it with one quick communication, then customers will definitely buy into it.
Paula: So I think simplicity is something that I think we’re all preaching across the industry.
Paula: And certainly Tesco has done an amazing job on that.
Mike: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Mike: Make it simple.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: So tell me then Mike, you’ve worked in so many countries around the world.
Paula: Are there any kind of cultural variations that you’ve noticed that were interesting?
Paula: Because I really, myself, I suppose, I really want this podcast to be able to talk about global insights on loyalty.
Paula: So what can you share with us on that area?
Mike: Yes, always an interesting one.
Mike: I’ve come across cultural situations more as a result of their comfort zones with regard to data, sharing data.
Mike: Certainly in the areas in the Middle East where you work, there are issues there around collecting data, sharing data, particularly the male-female scenario.
Mike: But as the customer starts enjoying and seeing trust within these businesses, then they’re prepared to share.
Mike: And I think that’s where the culture is fairly defensive.
Mike: And we were over here, we are very defensive over here.
Mike: I saw some research recently where the UK consumer is less likely to attach their credit card to a Groupon or some company, so they automatically can be invoiced for something, compared with the Americans who do that automatically because they trust the relationship.
Mike: So it’s not so much the cultural, from a point of view of religion or anything else.
Mike: Where religion does come in is in the reward.
Mike: You have to look at the reward as to what rewards you can offer.
Mike: I think as markets get more and more mature, if the company concerned works effectively at it and builds a relationship and builds trust and conforms to all the rules and regulations of protecting data, then as the market matures and availability comes in.
Mike: So I don’t often see culture as an issue.
Mike: It’s normally how mature the market is and how many other programs are running and how good those programs are.
Mike: I was interviewed on TV a few years ago in New Zealand when I was visiting there.
Mike: And the questions that came from the interviewer made me think pretty early on that she did not know what loyalty programs were about.
Mike: And I answered them without trying to make her look silly, but that reflected on the industry that they didn’t really understand what loyalty is supposed to do.
Mike: They saw it as a promotion, and that’s because people are giving out vouchers and stickers and the old-fashioned type, and no one was really doing it seriously.
Mike: That’s changed obviously now with flybys over there, but certainly the maturity of the company.
Mike: And that was 15 years ago in New Zealand, so even they’re playing catch-up in some ways.
Paula: Interesting.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: I haven’t done any work down there myself, so fascinating to hear.
Paula: And I wanted to ask you, Mike, so when you get calls from companies and you’ve already talked about walking away from a couple of opportunities, which as a consultant is a very brave move and one I certainly admire.
Paula: So when you get a call from a company that wants to do loyalty, which I think we’ve all experienced, what are your key frustrations when you get that kind of inquiry?
Mike: Normally the frustrations are when I sit down.
Mike: My normal modus operandi is to say, let me come in and talk to you and understand a bit more about what it is you’re trying to do.
Mike: And I always want to speak to a senior director, a manager, a CEO, a CFO.
Mike: With all due respect to other managers, in many cases, they don’t necessarily have the empowerment or the skills.
Mike: So a loyalty manager, I’ll try and sort of push the inquiry up.
Mike: So let’s sit down.
Mike: So you get it from the horse’s mouth.
Mike: Lots of programs fail.
Mike: We’ve just talked about culture.
Mike: They fail because of cultural issues.
Mike: Companies are preoccupied with product development and not customers.
Mike: The customer-focused ones are the ones that win.
Mike: So my frustration is when I sit down with these people, I start asking questions as to why you’re going to do it.
Mike: What sort of investment, what sort of return are you looking for?
Mike: Sometimes I do get the impression that they don’t necessarily understand, which is fair enough because you can’t expect to know everything.
Mike: But it is sometimes frustration when you find you’re almost patronizing them to explain how these things work.
Mike: I’ve had CFOs saying, we don’t need customers who give them that because they come in anyway, those sort of things.
Mike: Why should I give points to customers who are coming into my store anyway?
Mike: All that sort of stuff.
Mike: I’d probably make a few bob if I collected all of those and took $5 from every one of them.
Mike: But I think the frustration is, at that stage, is one part.
Mike: My other obvious hand is to run a workshop.
Mike: Before I get engaged, before I commit to developing a program, is to run a workshop which is promoted and sponsored by a senior director who stands up at the beginning of the workshop and says, this guy’s here to talk loyalty.
Mike: Tell him all your thoughts, all your concerns, all your attitudes, all your misunderstandings.
Mike: And let’s see where we go.
Mike: And often that results in getting a feedback to say, yeah, these people want loyalty, or the risk analysis is too weak.
Mike: I can’t, you know, until you do this, this and this, this isn’t going to work.
Mike: And you get sort of the sharp intake of breath from the IT guys who can’t cope.
Mike: And the marketing director doesn’t get on with the IT director.
Mike: And all of these disciplines you need to manage.
Mike: And if you don’t do that in the first place, you’re not honest with a company.
Mike: That’s the problem.
Mike: It’s too easy.
Mike: Many companies go in, consultancies, loyalty providers, who will try and find a way and justify something.
Mike: And then the program may not work.
Mike: And I can’t afford to be associated with a program that doesn’t work.
Mike: So it’s probably being honest.
Mike: And the frustration is sometimes they don’t take it seriously enough.
Mike: Loyalty is, I’ve read about this.
Mike: It’s a good idea.
Mike: It always researches well.
Mike: Do you want to know more about your customers?
Mike: Yes, I do.
Mike: But in practice, they don’t.
Mike: And that also exacerbates itself when they do send somebody on a training course.
Mike: And often I’ll get the big reason why many people come on training course or one of their frustrations is because they’re not getting support internally.
Mike: They don’t necessarily, people don’t invest in them as a person or the business.
Mike: Loyalty is just another department, when for me it should be the marketing tool of the business.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And certainly the first episode of this, I spoke to Sanjeev Nachani, who runs Raymond Rewards, and he exactly said that is how the program is viewed internally.
Paula: It is the marketing department.
Paula: So anything and everything that the business needs in terms of managing the customer relationship is run through them.
Paula: And I think that’s an extraordinary achievement when everybody understands, you know, that it all comes back to that kind of customer focus.
Paula: And I really love the point you made, Mike, about the workshop.
Paula: I think it’s a very, as you said, honest and time-efficient way to at least help the company understand itself and reflect between each other as to where the supporters are, the detractors, because there are all of those politics that we as external consultants have to understand and manage.
Paula: So to get that very clear up front is, I think, a very clever way for you to be able to go back in to the senior director and say, look, you can see yourself where the opportunities and challenges will be if you decide to progress with something.
Mike: Yeah, exactly.
Mike: Yeah, and that interview was very interesting.
Mike: I enjoyed that.
Mike: It was refreshing to hear somebody who took it seriously.
Mike: I had to go to the banks earlier, and I’m going to have a go at them again.
Mike: They silo their loyalty department and the credit card department.
Mike: So the credit card, that’s where you earn your points.
Mike: It’s changing a bit.
Mike: Santander are a lot clever now with current accounts, but as far as I’m concerned, if I have an account with that bank, it might be a credit card.
Mike: I expect all aspects of their bank, this holistic approach.
Mike: So if I speak to a different department, they should be aware of my loyalty situation.
Mike: They silo it in one department, and the customer side of it is ignored.
Mike: That’s a frustration.
Mike: It’s a frustration for them in some cases, but that’s normally from the top, where someone at the top says, no, let’s do something different.
Mike: But still, that’s part of the enjoyment.
Mike: That’s part of the attraction for me anyway.
Mike: It’s that challenge.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Well, there you go.
Paula: I knew I brought you on so I’d learn something, Mike, so I’m learning loads.
Paula: Tell me, what are the questions that I’ve had a lot actually is where a company just says, well, when can I have my loyalty program?
Paula: How quickly can you build it?
Paula: And this is at maybe an initial exploratory meeting.
Paula: And for me, it’s like, how long is a piece of string?
Paula: I’ve worked on really short, maybe quite tactical propositions, which aren’t loyalty, but came in under that guise.
Paula: And then I’ve worked on other brands that have taken three years to build a thing.
Paula: And of course, you could say to somebody, you’ll have a loyalty program in three years, you’ll be laughed out of the room.
Paula: So what would you say or what do you say when you get that kind of question?
Paula: Because to me, it’s quite difficult to answer.
Mike: Yeah, my response is normally I won’t hold you up.
Mike: Okay, very good.
Mike: There are issues that they have that will need to be managed.
Mike: And often these are technical issues in a retail environment, connecting to different point of sale systems and changing systems and operational systems and what have you is part of the challenge.
Mike: I’ve even had a program delay because I couldn’t decide on the name of it.
Mike: But again, going back to your point, if it’s a quick fix, if it’s a way of acquiring customers with a view to moving into a loyalty program, and some of these, even a Groupon type idea, they would claim it’s part of Lord.
Mike: That could acquire customers, but providing when you acquire those customers and make a purchase, you start a dialogue with them and collect information, then you can use that to move into a loyalty program, invite them to join, which is always more powerful than just offering it open to the world.
Mike: So if it’s a quick fix, if it’s a promotion, a continuity type program where they’re looking to run some short term campaign, then they can be set up reasonably quickly, and you’re talking six to eight weeks.
Mike: I would normally talk about 18 months for a coalition program, and that’s because of discussions and partnership agreements and building of that and the training.
Mike: That does take time.
Mike: I have set up programs within a side of six months, but if you can get the business, sort of the rules and regulations sorted out fairly quickly, the value proposition, and that is future proofed.
Mike: Often programs are launched and people go out with an RFP that does what they want to do from day one, but it doesn’t do what they’re doing three years hence.
Mike: So you need to get that right and make sure the RFP is future proof and covers developments that you might do over three or four years’ time, which is where experts come in.
Mike: They can say, okay, well, you won’t be giving people double points on their birthdays from day one, but in a year’s time, you might.
Mike: So we need to build that capability in there.
Mike: So that normally takes time.
Mike: So probably six to nine months would be realistic for a standalone program for me.
Mike: I’d be quite up for that.
Mike: And I would always recommend to go to a loyalty platform provider rather than building in-house.
Mike: Some companies want to build in-house and you always get this frustration from the IT guys.
Mike: Yeah, I can do that.
Mike: Well, you might be able to put points on an account, take points off, but the sophisticated bonusing and targeted offers that need to be done nowadays, the management of points, et cetera, requires sophisticated technology.
Mike: And there’s enough out there now where once you’ve got the business rules defined, they can configure, test and launch within six months quite easily.
Paula: Very good, yeah.
Paula: And I’ve always been a believer in specialized expertise, Mike.
Paula: You know, whether it is a consultant or a piece of software, I fundamentally believe that it’s only when you start working on something that you realize how hard it is.
Paula: So I fully agree that, you know, let’s just go with platforms, you know, obviously consider and go through a very comprehensive process, but get something that is future proof.
Paula: And I made the point in an interview actually, which is going out tomorrow with 3Mobile in Ireland, that often your technology provider can be a real source of support on an ongoing basis long term.
Paula: So I think that’s something that people can really leverage.
Paula: So yeah, definitely a fan of the specialized approach.
Paula: And I suppose even to add in to your overall recommendation on the technology side, Mike, I certainly worked on a program, which I won’t obviously name, but again, I wasn’t brought in and I wasn’t involved in the platform side, but what was really interesting was all of the basic capabilities for loyalty were available.
Paula: And it was an external platform, but something really basic like the content management for the partnerships I was bringing in, that was something that had to be done by the partner, the software company.
Paula: We couldn’t do it ourselves in-house.
Paula: So, you know, that was really frustrating and a really obvious piece of functionality, but because I didn’t have any visibility on the RFP, I couldn’t go, you’re missing something really important because you will want to just build those pages yourself because of the speed of turnaround, you know?
Mike: Yeah, I’ve been there, Paula.
Mike: And a very good friend of ours, Mike Capizzi, has this wonderful saying, you think an expert’s expensive, try using an amateur.
Paula: Yes, exactly, exactly.
Mike: It is so true.
Mike: And I found that, and I had a company last year that had been running the program for three years.
Mike: They hadn’t gone.
Mike: I wasn’t involved in launching it.
Mike: I was asked to come in and re-evaluate it, which is something we offer as a service through CSN to give a loyalty check, as we call it, a reality check on a program.
Mike: And they suddenly wanted to be a bit more sophisticated, and we sat down with the IT provider, and he said, yeah, we can do that.
Mike: Get your checkbook out.
Mike: Because they hadn’t done a future proof RFP.
Mike: All of the capabilities were there when they launched, but they hadn’t decided because they just said, okay, from day one, this is what we’re going to do.
Mike: It’s just false economy, and again, getting back to the frustration.
Mike: You’ve got to be careful because sometimes you’re telling the guy that’s running it that he’s the guy who’s at fault.
Mike: And that’s awkward because it’s not what you’re there to do.
Mike: But sometimes that’s what he ends up doing because you say, well, I’ve got it with the one we’re running at the moment, Nick Chambers and myself, then the guy is sort of blaming himself because it hasn’t worked, but it hasn’t worked because his bosses wouldn’t educate him or empower him in understanding what needs to happen.
Paula: Absolutely, absolutely.
Paula: Yeah, so make sure that you’re buying all of the future enhancements on that loyalty technology, not just their current capability.
Paula: And I guess to have visibility of their roadmap as well, because at least then you know what’s coming in 6 or 12 or 3 years’ time even.
Paula: Because often they’re thinking much further ahead than one individual company that’s just getting into loyalty maybe for the first time.
Mike: Yeah, and we talked technology providers.
Mike: It doesn’t necessarily cost you money, it costs you time, but they’re all quite happy to come along and present their platform to you and present it.
Mike: And these guys understand it.
Mike: The companies that are running big loyalty programs around the globe are very proud of what they’ve got.
Mike: Prices are nowhere near what they used to be.
Mike: In the early days of, I think the Amex one membership rewards were run by Frequency Marketing as it was then, cost about $4 million to develop.
Mike: Once it’s developed, then it’s really a case of just configuring it and the margins are quite attractive, so the deals have come down.
Mike: But these companies are more than happy to come along and present to you and all of your staff and say, look, this is what our platform can do.
Mike: And all you’ve got to do is spend some time there.
Mike: You don’t need to invest in that.
Mike: They won’t charge you for that, but certainly it’s a shame that many people don’t see that.
Mike: And that’s where the IT guys, they go to the IT guy and he says, yeah, okay, I’ll do that in six months’ time.
Mike: I can make that amendment and the opportunity is lost.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: So just the final few then, Mike.
Paula: I think a key one I wanted to ask you about are, what new trends do you think are emerging in loyalty marketing that maybe our listeners need to be aware of or thinking about?
Mike: Yeah, I think, as I’ve already mentioned, customer experience is getting more and more relevant.
Mike: I’m finding that really, and I’ve added that in to our master classes.
Mike: And I know we’re working on customer relationships as one of the modules within the Loyalty Academy.
Mike: Because if you don’t get that right, it doesn’t work.
Mike: So getting the customer experience right.
Mike: And many customers, if they had a good experience, they’re in a far better frame of mind for purchasing items.
Mike: It’s common sense, really.
Mike: We stop to think about it, because we all get frustrated.
Mike: Sometimes when we’re shopping, we can’t find what we’re looking for, or the store opening isn’t convenient, or the staff are not available, or whatever it may be.
Mike: So corporate social responsibility is the other one.
Mike: People using the relationship they have with customers to make donations to charity.
Mike: It always researches well.
Mike: People will say, yes, I’ll do that.
Mike: But in practice, it doesn’t actually.
Mike: People don’t.
Mike: Charity perhaps begins at home.
Mike: What I am finding now, companies are looking more closely at it as using this relationship they have with customers and enabling customers or empowering customers, if you like, to convert their points into a donation to charity.
Mike: And of course, in the UK, there’s a benefit there because the government will add 25% to the value of any investment you make, any donation you make, if you’re a UK taxpayer.
Mike: So it actually can increase the value of the points.
Mike: So you have to look very carefully in the website to find out which companies they’re prepared to donate to.
Mike: But I think corporate social responsibility, customer experience, and then of course, social networks is coming on.
Mike: And social networks is a means of communicating with customers.
Mike: I still have issues on how you evaluate the ROI on that, but I think you need to be there.
Mike: But of course, you do leave yourself bare if you give bad service, then you’re going to get back.
Mike: I mean, Continental Airlines had to change their name because Continental Airlines sucks, I think was all over the internet once because they did it.
Mike: But no, I think certainly customer experience, get that right in the loyalty program.
Mike: And the two go hand in hand, their work.
Mike: The other trend, which is not so much a trend, it’s a requirement, that’s GDPR.
Paula: Yes.
Mike: And that’s understanding that again.
Mike: That’s another module that we’re working on with the Loyalty Academy at the moment.
Mike: Understanding that because managing customers’ data and owning data is very, very important nowadays.
Mike: And the costs, the implications of not conforming to requirements are 4% of your total revenue.
Mike: And you’ve seen that from many companies have suffered.
Paula: Yeah, yeah, it’s a huge risk not to get that right.
Paula: I mean, it’s just unthinkable, especially now that it’s been in force for over a year that people haven’t got that sorted.
Paula: So certainly one to be very, you know, risk averse.
Mike: Exactly.
Paula: Yeah, and you mentioned something yesterday, offline Mike, about a new app, which I thought was a very interesting concept.
Paula: And I think it was more in the context of subscription programs like, say, Netflix or like an Amazon Prime, but where somebody’s built an application which will auto cancel those for you.
Paula: Do you think there’s a possibility of that coming into the loyalty industry?
Mike: Well, I think it’s got a connection to it, isn’t it?
Mike: I mean, the interesting thing is that this guy who’s developed this obviously has looked at the customer experience because it is a frustration for customers that we sign up for these things and it might be, you know, Amazon Prime or what have you, and we do a three months trial.
Mike: And then, oh, I forgot to make a note of that.
Mike: And then suddenly you see it on your statement, they take, you know, 999 out of your account and what have you.
Mike: So he’s seen that.
Mike: And I think it would be, there are some subscription based models around the world.
Mike: And a way of acquiring customers is to get them, to give them a few trials.
Mike: So I think, yes, it could be.
Mike: In the same as social networks is now being part of loyalty and customer experiences, then this would be a solution which many would want to sort of buy into.
Mike: And it’s interesting, it’s clever.
Mike: I think it only works on Apple at the moment, so they’re still working on the Android version.
Mike: But I think it could be something.
Mike: And what will happen is that the media will get hold of it, and therefore customers will be aware that it can be done, and they’ll be seeking out companies to offer it as a service.
Mike: So I think it’s a good point.
Mike: I think it’s one of a trend that’s watched this space, as I say.
Paula: Yeah, yeah.
Paula: Bran, you hold off the presses.
Paula: You heard it here first.
Paula: So tell me then, Mike, just the final few, what kind of resources do you recommend if people want to stay up to date?
Paula: Do you go to any particular conferences or are there websites that you like to recommend or anything in that space?
Mike: Yeah, I think certainly the wise marketer is free registration.
Mike: You get a weekly newsletter.
Mike: It’s now very global.
Mike: It wasn’t global, but it’s changed over recent years and getting more of a global awareness.
Mike: It was very US based before.
Mike: There’s another one called Calaquie, which is also another source that I sign into that gives you insights as to what’s going on.
Mike: Conference-wise, I’m a bit perplexed about conferences because they tend to turn out to be people standing up selling their stuff.
Mike: And I’ve been to some where I’ve seen someone presenting something which they were presenting four or five years ago, and you get the usual suspects who are there.
Mike: So I’m always selective within that in terms of conferences.
Mike: The one in the UK, which is the Loyalty Surgery, is quite a clever one.
Mike: People come and discuss the situations, and that’s a very interesting one.
Mike: They get some good speakers, but also the Wise Martyr, in conjunction with the Loyalty Academy, run conferences.
Mike: They tend to be US-based, but it’s quite nice to have a trip to Florida for a few days.
Mike: They have some very good speakers.
Mike: And the speakers tend to open up a bit more.
Mike: They get some Fortune 500 guys, CEOs, coming in and presenting and talking about things and taking a Q&A.
Mike: And they can be far more valuable in terms of getting an understanding to say nothing of the networking opportunities as part of them.
Mike: But other than that, most of the conferences are run by technology providers or solution providers.
Mike: And they’re just churning out their own people, telling them how wonderful their program is, which is good in some respects, but you don’t need to go to a conference on that.
Mike: There’s loads of stuff.
Mike: You and I know if you put Loyalty into Google, you could be there for weeks.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: And certainly nobody wants to go to a conference where there’s a sales agenda.
Paula: It is very much, you know, it has to be around education.
Paula: And I haven’t been to the one in Florida, although I’m determined to get there next year.
Paula: So watch this space on that.
Paula: But really good to hear that the level of seniority there adds a whole other dimension, I suppose, from my perspective in terms of justifying the trip.
Paula: It’s a very long way from Dubai to Orlando, but certainly very keen to get there.
Paula: And again, as I said earlier, I’ll put links to The Wise Marketeer and to Colourquay into the show notes so people can look that up.
Paula: And yeah, the last thing then is just, is there anything else that we haven’t covered, Mike, that you wanted to add?
Mike: No, I think we’ve covered most.
Mike: I just wanted to sort of share this project that I’m working on with a CSN colleague at the moment, Nick Chambers, and it highlights the situation that has happened as a result of me doing some training.
Mike: And I have to say, out of all the courses I’ve run over the years, I’ve yet to run a course where it hasn’t resulted in me getting a client, which is great for me.
Mike: But this particular guy came on the course about a year ago, asked lots of questions, was running a program in Portugal, a program run by the company that run all the motorways in Portugal.
Mike: They do all the tolls, et cetera.
Mike: Got a market share, got total exclusivity, almost a sort of a monopoly, if you like.
Mike: The guy came along, was asking lots of questions, and he came up to the end of the course, shook my hand and said, thanks very much, it was very helpful, Mike.
Mike: Would you, can you help us?
Mike: And I said, well, I’d love to, and didn’t think anymore about it.
Mike: Maybe he went back.
Mike: And anyway, about three or four months ago, he came in touch and said, we’re ready to send out an RFP, are you interested?
Mike: And he sent the RFP.
Mike: I knew the answers, I knew what he wanted to hear.
Mike: And we got the work, and Nick and I have been out there several times to Portugal.
Mike: And we’ve really just taken this program, which was started three years ago, and done this reality check on it, warts and all, and identified all the areas which need to be improved from rewards through to fulfillment, through to engagement, through data collection, et cetera, et cetera.
Mike: And it’s a useful exercise for many companies to do, to revisit their program and be honest.
Mike: Look at it, and look at it in the eyes of a consumer.
Mike: Would I really bother to do that?
Mike: And I think if a few started doing that, they might be in a bit of a rude awakening.
Mike: The interesting thing is that we’re looking to save this company over a million euros on what they’re doing.
Mike: So by doing that work, it can make a hell of a difference, because they’re not targeting their offers.
Mike: They’re spending lots and lots of money, which is going down the drain.
Mike: They have no idea whether it’s working or not.
Mike: And that’s the beauty of a loyalty program.
Mike: At least if you target an offer, you can evaluate it and see if it does drive return on investment.
Mike: Otherwise, why do it?
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Well, that’s been a phenomenal learning for me, Mike.
Paula: I knew it would be a fantastic conversation, and it always is.
Paula: So I really want to thank you for your time and expertise and, again, growing the overall industry, because I’m a firm believer that people like you are growing the respect levels for all of us.
Paula: So really thank you for that.
Paula: And then just tell us, if somebody wants to get in contact with you, Mike, where’s the best place to contact you?
Mike: Probably the customerstrategynetwork.com.
Mike: I’m a member on there, so they can send all my LinkedIn group.
Mike: I also have a Twitter tab, Loyalty Guru, so if anyone wants to join that, so any of those, you want to add those to the presentation.
Mike: But thanks very much for, I’ve enjoyed it.
Mike: It’s a great idea and I wish you well with it.
Paula: Thanks a million, Mike.
Paula: I’ll talk to you again.
Mike: Bye now.
Paula: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com, and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.
Paula: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform.
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Paula: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews, and thanks again for supporting the show.
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