Paula: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.
Paula: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights for loyalty marketing specialists around the world.
Paula: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Paula: Today, I’m thrilled to be sharing global loyalty insights from a woman who is truly on a mission to drive our industry forward.
Paula: Zsuzsa Kecsmar is the co-founder and chief strategy officer of Antavo AI Loyalty Cloud, a loyalty software company she co-founded almost 14 years ago.
Paula: Zsuzsa was also chosen last year as the International Loyalty Personality of the Year, partly because of her incredible work creating the Global Customer Loyalty Report, which last year was downloaded by over 8,000 loyalty professionals.
Paula: As you can imagine, Zsuzsa has even greater ambitions for the 2025 Global Customer Loyalty Report, which was just released last week, and contains some incredible insights both from loyalty industry professionals as well as direct insights from over 10,000 loyalty program members.
Paula: Today, Zsuzsa also shares some of the latest AI-led loyalty technology innovations at Antavo, which are being designed and built based on their feedback from some of their incredible global clients.
Paula: I hope you enjoy my conversation with Zsuzsa Kecsmar from Antavo AI Loyalty Cloud.
Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, Zsuzsa.
Paula: I feel this is so long overdue.
Paula: Happy New Year and welcome to the show.
Zsuzsa: Thank you.
Zsuzsa: It’s great to be here.
Paula: And you’re here in person, so for anybody listening, we do have Zsuzsa in the studio in Dubai.
Paula: Anybody, of course, watching on Loyalty TV could admire our beautiful new studio.
Paula: So that’s particularly exciting.
Paula: We get to sit like old friends and chat about loyalty.
Zsuzsa: It is.
Paula: There is so much going on with you guys, Zsuzsa.
Paula: So the first thing I think I wanted to say is you’re probably the most experienced guest we’ve ever had.
Paula: You just casually mentioned that you had a radio show for five years before.
Paula: So before we even get into anything, just tell our audience you actually have an amazing background in broadcasting.
Zsuzsa: Exactly.
Zsuzsa: When I was a student at university, I was just really interested in radio.
Zsuzsa: And back then, so it was before the podcast era.
Zsuzsa: You had this charm that once it’s aired, it’s gone, and it is really exciting.
Zsuzsa: And for five years, I produced shows about culture, about love.
Zsuzsa: We even had a matchmaking show.
Paula: Oh, my God.
Zsuzsa: I have to say it is pre GDPR today.
Zsuzsa: It wouldn’t go any way like that, how it went back then.
Zsuzsa: But it was a very nice experience and it helped me to be very sharp in my brain and then really mean what I say.
Paula: Yes, yes.
Paula: Well, I can hear that coming through.
Paula: So, well done you.
Paula: And I feel like we need a separate conversation or fair at some point about that, because I think I have a little hankering to actually do real broadcasting if I talk about it that way as well.
Paula: So thank you for that little insight.
Paula: So let’s get into today’s conversations, Zsuzsa.
Paula: As you know, we have a couple of opening questions that we really like to start the show with and for a couple of different reasons.
Paula: We’ve always in the past talked about favorite loyalty programs, and we will talk about your favorite loyalty program.
Paula: But I have a new question for this year.
Paula: And the reason I want to ask you this really is just to get a sense of what has really helped you to learn, either about loyalty or about business.
Paula: And I think actually you told me you’re going to have one for each.
Paula: So let’s kick off the new year and get a sense of what is your favorite book that you could recommend for our audience.
Zsuzsa: My favorite, I have these two favorite books.
Zsuzsa: One is about loyalty and the other is about life and business, but mainly life and in so many ways, business is just life.
Zsuzsa: And I will start with the second.
Zsuzsa: It’s from Allan Pease and it’s about body language.
Zsuzsa: And it’s interesting because this book is maybe like 30 years old, but the content is still very relevant today because over the course of 30 years, people didn’t change much.
Zsuzsa: The evolution that took us to got here were like millions of years.
Zsuzsa: And when I read that book in my 20s, it has such a big impact on my life because I could see things in a conscious way.
Zsuzsa: Like, so if I do this, maybe I’m closing myself off.
Zsuzsa: So maybe I should open up.
Zsuzsa: So this can control how other people see you and this can control how you feel about yourself.
Zsuzsa: If you start smiling, eventually you will feel happier.
Zsuzsa: The other book, which is a more Loyalty-related book, is the most Loyalty-related book, which is available today.
Zsuzsa: And that is Phil Shelper’s Loyalty Program, The Complete Guide.
Zsuzsa: Phil is a Loyalty Consultant with his agency based in Australia.
Zsuzsa: And he published his book for the first time in 2020.
Zsuzsa: And it was just the middle of COVID.
Zsuzsa: And everything happened after that.
Zsuzsa: Big digital transformation, a big innovation in CRM.
Zsuzsa: And he republished his book last year.
Zsuzsa: And that’s the second edition.
Zsuzsa: And it’s used as textbooks on courses, in university courses.
Zsuzsa: And I actually had the honor to review it before it got published.
Zsuzsa: And then he asked my opinion.
Zsuzsa: And I said, this book is amazing.
Zsuzsa: It’s like you get a master’s in Loyalty Programs.
Zsuzsa: And he liked it so much that he put this quote on the cover.
Zsuzsa: So if you see that red circle on the cover on the second edition, well, that sentence is from me.
Paula: That’s incredible.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: So and again, for our audience, both listening and watching this show, we’ll make sure to link to those two books in the show notes, because I know for me, there’s absolutely this intention where, you know, people will then be curious about particularly, you know, the book about body language.
Paula: That sounds fascinating.
Paula: And again, as you said, it’s an eternal topic.
Paula: So definitely one I want to read and Phil’s book.
Paula: We’ve had Phil on the show, in fact, talking about his book.
Paula: So he’s definitely a master in in loyalty and knowledge.
Paula: So so absolutely.
Paula: Thank you for kicking us off with those.
Paula: And we have to ask you your favorite loyalty program then Zsuzsa as well.
Paula: Tell our audience, what is your favorite loyalty program at the moment?
Zsuzsa: It’s very hard and it changes all the time.
Zsuzsa: If you ask me half a year ago, I would have said H&M, because I really liked that they reward recycling.
Zsuzsa: But they are not amazing with point expirations.
Zsuzsa: They just expired almost all my points with a warning of like two days or something.
Zsuzsa: So it’s not amazing, but I still forgive them, because their loyalty program is very nice, though it’s not my favorite now.
Zsuzsa: My favorite loyalty program today is Charlotte Tilbury’s loyalty program.
Zsuzsa: Charlotte Tilbury is a beauty brand born in the UK, but now they are a global company.
Zsuzsa: And as beauty brands, they have a very big challenge, because if you go to a drugstore like Sephora, then you have all the selection of great products.
Zsuzsa: And in beauty, discovery is a thing.
Zsuzsa: So customers are tempted just to go to Sephora and enjoy the Sephora loyalty program and pick other products from the shelf.
Zsuzsa: So this is the challenge that beauty brands face.
Zsuzsa: But Charlotte Tilbury, when they are running their own loyalty program, they sell through department stores, the Sephora’s online.
Zsuzsa: They are really differentiating their loyalty program because they give this extra.
Zsuzsa: So you don’t want to go to Sephora, but you want to keep shopping at Charlotte Tilbury.
Zsuzsa: They use this Gamified Profiling, which is like a very fun survey.
Zsuzsa: So if I take a selfie and I upload my picture, then it can determine what is the products that are recommended to me.
Zsuzsa: And it even helps me to pick a fragrance, which is always very difficult, right?
Zsuzsa: To pick a fragrance online, right?
Zsuzsa: It asks you what is the feeling that you want to feel.
Zsuzsa: Do you want to gift it or use it for yourself?
Zsuzsa: What is the color that would describe you right now?
Zsuzsa: So basically, it’s a very smart questionnaire and it’s perfect for product recommendation.
Zsuzsa: Just perfect.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: And I did have a quick look at that program in advance of today, because of course, it’s in your Global Loyalty Report, which we’re here to talk about.
Paula: So thank you for bringing to my attention.
Paula: I think what immediately struck me about that is for an individual makeup artist to become a global brand in such, I’m going to say, a ruthless industry, because I think obviously the scale of the companies that operate in particularly in makeup, and I don’t particularly buy expensive makeup, but that actually is extraordinary that I’m even aware of a fairly new brand like that.
Paula: So definitely we’ll have to try and get Charlotte Tilbury on the show.
Paula: So if anybody knows their loyalty program or loyalty manager, please let us know.
Paula: So we are off to a flying start.
Paula: And as I said, there’s lots we’re going to talk about today.
Paula: Before we do that, Zsuzsa, I’d love to just get a sense of, I suppose, you and the origins of the company that you’ve co-founded.
Paula: It’s kicking up a storm, I would say, in terms of everywhere I go, I see Antavo and your AI propositions coming through so powerfully.
Paula: And I know you’re still a fairly young company.
Paula: So would you mind just explaining to our audience, where do the origins of this idea come from?
Paula: Because again, this is a competitive industry with lots of technology out there.
Paula: So tell us your background.
Zsuzsa: I have a very profound memory from my childhood.
Zsuzsa: When I was 14 and I started high school, the teacher divided us into two groups for the computer science class.
Zsuzsa: One was like a normal group, and the other one was the advanced computer science class.
Zsuzsa: And she didn’t know better.
Zsuzsa: And I forgave her, of course, already.
Zsuzsa: But she asked, she asked, who has a computer at home?
Zsuzsa: Because she thought that this is a nice way to determine if someone has already the experience with computers or not.
Zsuzsa: It is not a nice way.
Zsuzsa: So I didn’t raise my hand because in 2002, in rural Hungary, we didn’t have a computer at home.
Zsuzsa: So I got into the average class, and we needed to walk through the advanced classes classroom every time when that class happened.
Zsuzsa: And I felt this shame.
Zsuzsa: I felt discriminated against not having a computer at home.
Zsuzsa: And this memory is so profound that I thought that like when I grow up, I want to do something that helps people to use technology so they don’t need to face what I faced.
Zsuzsa: And this is what we are doing today, actually, that we help business users like a loyalty manager to use technology in an impactful way.
Zsuzsa: And I was just out of university when I teamed up with my co-founders for Hungarians in London.
Zsuzsa: We had this big ambition and found it Antavo.
Zsuzsa: It was quite long ago, but it was a different product.
Zsuzsa: And we are in Loyalty since 2016.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Wow.
Paula: Thank you for sharing the personal story.
Paula: It’s amazing.
Paula: I don’t think teachers always realize that they can really upset students, I’m sure, unintentionally, as you said, but that planted a seed and I think an ambition for you, which I guess we’re now grateful for.
Paula: And as you talk about your technology, I know we talked a little bit about it.
Paula: It definitely resonated with me as somebody who’s never done computer science, who’s only been the business user, who knows exactly what I want to do and wouldn’t have a clue how to do it.
Paula: I’ve never been in a computer science class.
Paula: So I think you have identified a need state that is pretty unique.
Paula: So thank you for sharing the origin story.
Paula: Let’s get into the main topic first of today, though, of course.
Paula: So last week, you just launched the 2025 Global Customer Loyalty Report.
Paula: So first of all, congratulations.
Paula: I know it’s a huge amount of work.
Paula: You must be exhausted.
Zsuzsa: Oh, yeah.
Zsuzsa: We do this every year.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: And every year we say it will be shorter.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: Because it’s 80 pages.
Zsuzsa: I’m so sorry I don’t have a printed copy with me because the print version is still ongoing.
Zsuzsa: And we haven’t printed out copies yet.
Zsuzsa: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: But it’s 80 pages.
Zsuzsa: It’s full of great, amazing numbers.
Zsuzsa: And very nice graphics.
Zsuzsa: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: We always have this astronaut on the cover.
Zsuzsa: Who is the future-seeking adventurous marketeer.
Zsuzsa: And that happened this year too.
Zsuzsa: But there is another person or persona on the cover.
Zsuzsa: And that is like a robot which represents AI.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: Because today, marketeers have this AI.
Zsuzsa: They have AI to help their work.
Zsuzsa: And not only in our product, Antavo, but in general in the world.
Zsuzsa: Now, we have an AI, so we can do our jobs better.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: We were just talking about it, actually.
Paula: We haven’t done too much with AI as content producers ourselves.
Paula: But again, we have to and we want to.
Paula: So it’s definitely something that I think we’re all equally inspired, sometimes terrified.
Paula: So I know you guys are the experts on AI as well in terms of that.
Paula: So we’ll definitely come to talking about that.
Paula: But let’s talk about the report first and foremost.
Paula: Last year, you had an incredible 8,000 people downloading that Global Loyalty Report.
Paula: I know you’re even more ambitious for this year.
Paula: I think we’re going for 10,000, am I right?
Zsuzsa: Oh yeah.
Zsuzsa: I really hope that we will achieve 10,000.
Zsuzsa: But I don’t know.
Zsuzsa: We counted and over the course of the past years, 50,000 people downloaded and used this report because we want them to use this to prove their point, to point to this piece of statistics.
Paula: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Paula: And again, actually even, you know, I’ve been inspired by some of the numbers and we’re going to talk about those now.
Paula: But even in terms of the kind of audience that we have, are always looking for these kind of insights.
Paula: So we literally today decided we’re going to build a resources page.
Paula: We’ll definitely make sure your report is on there.
Paula: So anybody listening, of course, it’s linked in the show notes as well.
Paula: But we’re definitely aware of the hunger for knowledge that you guys are bringing to the market.
Paula: So let’s get into some of the detail.
Paula: You gave me some of the heads up on, I guess, some amazing numbers, which, as I said, are already prompting me in terms of what do I need to be thinking about ahead for 2025.
Paula: I think the first thing that the audience needs to know is that you’ve talked to different audiences and I think that’s unique.
Paula: So we have our loyalty professionals insights, we have consumer insights, and then you’ve got some, I suppose, advice and recommendations on trends to think about for the year ahead.
Zsuzsa: Besides that, we also analysed our own data, because Antavo is a technology company, and brands like KFC or Benefit Cosmetics or Scandic Hotels or Hia, or big fashion companies, we can’t mention, unfortunately.
Zsuzsa: These people, these companies, are using Antavo to run their loyalty programs.
Zsuzsa: So we are the technology behind them.
Zsuzsa: It also means that we have access to all these loyalty program member actions that we anonymized and analyzed.
Zsuzsa: So we analyzed 230 million member actions.
Paula: Wow.
Zsuzsa: And this report got a bit bigger in scale too, because last year we asked 600 marketers globally, this year we asked 2,600.
Zsuzsa: Last year, we’ve done 1,500 minutes of qualitative interviews.
Zsuzsa: And this year, we’ve done interviews too, but in a written format, so it would be easier to consume.
Zsuzsa: And last year, we didn’t ask consumers, but this year we did.
Zsuzsa: And it’s 10,000 customers that we asked globally.
Zsuzsa: We have all these data from the regions and the countries and even age.
Zsuzsa: So we know what boomers, what millennials, what Gen Z thinks.
Paula: Incredible.
Paula: And I wish we could get into every single one of these insights, Zsuzsa.
Paula: But let’s just pick out a couple of favorites.
Paula: Let’s start with the 2,600 loyalty marketers you talked about.
Paula: I have a favorite insight from everything that you’ve shown me again in the early edition of the of the report.
Paula: Tell our audience what’s your favorite insight from loyalty professionals in 2025.
Zsuzsa: My favorite insight is that life is good for loyalty professionals.
Zsuzsa: That’s simply put, life is good today because the satisfaction, the budget and ROI are all times high in terms of Loyalty Programs.
Zsuzsa: What do I mean by that?
Zsuzsa: So satisfaction.
Zsuzsa: Today, 7 out of 10 Loyalty Program owners are satisfied with their Loyalty Programs.
Zsuzsa: But last year, this was 5.5.
Paula: Wow.
Zsuzsa: So it’s a growth in satisfaction.
Zsuzsa: In terms of budget, today, and I’m trying now really hard to remember all these numbers because it’s a lot of numbers.
Zsuzsa: So 31.4% of the marketing budget is dedicated to CRMN Loyalty.
Zsuzsa: And this is almost 5% higher than last year.
Zsuzsa: 5% in the budget.
Paula: Unbelievable.
Zsuzsa: It’s a big significant change.
Zsuzsa: And in terms of ROI, the return on investment on Loyalty Programs, well, 80% of loyalty professionals, 80% of companies measure the ROI.
Zsuzsa: And out of those where it’s positive, the ROI is 5.1.
Zsuzsa: How many is it?
Zsuzsa: 5.1.
Zsuzsa: 5.1 or 5.2.
Paula: 5.2.
Paula: You’re correct.
Paula: Pardon me.
Paula: I’m glancing at my nose.
Paula: There you go.
Paula: Hard to be perfect.
Zsuzsa: And last year, this was 4.8, right?
Zsuzsa: It was.
Paula: Absolutely.
Zsuzsa: Even 5.2 is amazing.
Zsuzsa: That is 520% benefit or profit.
Paula: Absolutely.
Zsuzsa: It’s so much.
Zsuzsa: And that is better than that was last year, which is 480.
Zsuzsa: It shows that loyalty programs are revenue center and not a cost center.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I think I said to you offline, Zsuzsa, if that was the only thing we shared with the audience today, I would be thrilled to bits because when I was a loyalty program manager, I had no idea what a world class loyalty program in telecommunications as I was in at the time.
Paula: What should I even be looking for in terms of a return on investment?
Paula: I know there’s complexity around how we measure it.
Paula: We’ve talked a lot about that on this show.
Paula: For example, there’s internal ways of measuring.
Paula: Some people go externally as well, of course.
Paula: But to get a 5.2x return on a huge investment as it typically is for a loyalty program, I mean, to me, as you said, times are good and we should all be super proud.
Paula: And at least it gives us something to have those internal stakeholder conversations.
Paula: So, if somebody is measuring, for example, in excess of that, they can say, look, we’re best in the world.
Paula: If they’re not quite at that level, it gives them something to aspire to.
Paula: Yes.
Zsuzsa: Yes.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Okay, so that’s the most powerful one.
Paula: Again, just for people listening or watching, there’s loads more in this section.
Paula: How many or what percentage of program owners might want to revamp their programs, might want to replatform their programs.
Paula: So, lots of detail.
Paula: We’re not going to get into everyone today, but again, lots of reasons to download all of the 80 pages if people want to understand, you know, if that’s something that’s on their own mind.
Paula: So, let’s get into the next section then, Zsuzsa.
Paula: There is a big consumer wishlist.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: So, there’s lots of different things that your consumers are telling you that they would love in terms of the programs they’re members of.
Paula: You’ve already told us there’s 10,000 people you did this research with.
Paula: So, what struck you in terms of what consumers are asking for in loyalty programs in 2025?
Zsuzsa: The most important learning for us is that consumers come for the meat and stay for the gravy.
Zsuzsa: And what do I mean by that?
Paula: Sure.
Zsuzsa: So, they come for the meat because 69% of consumers say that the number one reason for them to join a loyalty program is that there are discounts and rewards.
Zsuzsa: So, these are hard financial benefits, right?
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: And actually, that is a bit of a change compared to last year.
Zsuzsa: In the last years, it was more about these money can buy experiences, these early access.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: So, this is which more be more, if we say, emotional.
Zsuzsa: But the work today with all the financial difficulties and the big competition between companies, and I think also because of the spread of loyalty programs, consumers want real hard rewards, which includes discounts.
Zsuzsa: So, marketeers need to keep this in mind.
Zsuzsa: But what do I mean by that they will stay for the gravy?
Zsuzsa: They will stay for those differentiators that set the loyalty program apart, to set the companies apart.
Zsuzsa: Just like with H&M, that they reward recycling, or with Charlotte Tilbury.
Zsuzsa: You can build your beauty profile, and once Charlotte Tilbury knows all about you, your skin complexion, what are the products that you like, and how you think about pregnancies, they will know you and Charlotte Tilbury will be your go-to place next time.
Zsuzsa: We also learned that what customers want, in terms of, we asked this question, if it was possible, what would you want?
Zsuzsa: And a bit more than 40% of them said that they would love to have no expiration of points.
Zsuzsa: And of course, they would love that.
Paula: I would love that.
Paula: Yes.
Zsuzsa: I would love that.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: And it’s like a nice challenge for companies, right?
Paula: I actually agree.
Paula: It’s absolutely a challenge, and it’s one that we need to think about.
Paula: I think as an industry, we need to figure it out.
Paula: And I think, again, I said to you before the show today that we’ve had like Virgin Red on the program and on the show, and they have a program which has no expiry of points.
Paula: So I have no idea how the accounting is done, how the liability is managed.
Paula: But clearly, if the business decides that that’s in the interests of the consumer, there has to be a way for the accounting to work.
Paula: So I think most people listening to this show are obviously watching, are really keen on delighting customers.
Paula: And if that’s the one big thing that we’ve learned, then let’s talk about how.
Paula: So definitely one to watch and lots of good feedback to think about.
Paula: The next big section then, I am going to refer to my notes here as well.
Paula: And this is the most exciting part again, probably of the report for me.
Paula: We’re going to talk about three loyalty program trends that are super important again.
Paula: Here we are, January 2025.
Paula: You’ve learned things about reward customization, gamified data collection, and also family accounts, which I also have a story about personally as well.
Paula: So will you just tell me, you know, which of these I suppose really resonated with you that you think again, our audience needs to be thinking about in terms of the trends for the year ahead?
Zsuzsa: Yes.
Zsuzsa: So we explored strategies that consumers want, but marketeers do not use yet.
Paula: Okay.
Zsuzsa: And we called this like an opportunity gap.
Zsuzsa: Like, here is your chance.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: Here is how you can do better, be a marketeer.
Zsuzsa: And the first one is about customizing the reward experience.
Zsuzsa: And Nordstrom does it quite well.
Zsuzsa: We brought Nordstrom as a case study.
Zsuzsa: It’s about how a consumer can be in charge of how the loyalty program actually works.
Zsuzsa: They can pick that this is the day when I want to earn double points.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: And this way they have this control.
Zsuzsa: One of our customers is an electricity company in New Zealand called Mercury.
Zsuzsa: And in their case, you can pick which is the day where you want to binge on electricity.
Paula: Okay.
Zsuzsa: Like if it’s your birthday, for example.
Paula: Interesting.
Zsuzsa: So that was the first trend.
Paula: Yes.
Zsuzsa: The second trend, which was the second trend?
Paula: The second trend was about gamified data collection.
Zsuzsa: Gamified data collection.
Zsuzsa: Yes.
Zsuzsa: We asked and more than half, I think 55% of consumers said that they would be more willing to give their data if it is collected in a fun way.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: And this is what Charlotte Tilbury does, right?
Paula: Yes, of course.
Paula: Absolutely.
Zsuzsa: You need these data points in order to personalize.
Zsuzsa: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: And if you don’t ask it, like write at enrollment, which is always a crucial point, but a bit later, in a way, that is fun, even like this Tinder, like swipe left, swipe right, or that is something that is fun for you, just like how Charlotte Tilbury does.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: Then it’s more effective.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: I know one thing I’ve learned over the last few years, which is exactly the same.
Paula: And it’s a term called Progressive Profiling, which is exactly what you’re talking about.
Paula: So onboarding somebody, getting them to join the Loyalty Program, obviously is critical.
Paula: We want to minimize friction.
Paula: But then over time, you have permission and an opportunity, as you said, to basically build their profile.
Paula: And if you could do it in a fun way, then of course, they’re absolutely going to be much more engaged, much more excited.
Paula: So that is super cool.
Paula: And just one statistic I liked in that was that the program owners who currently offer gamified data collection is 42%.
Paula: So big opportunity gap, as you said, then 58% of us are not doing it.
Paula: So definitely a big opportunity there.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Then talk to us about family accounts, Zsuzsa.
Paula: This one, as you said for me, feels very relevant.
Paula: I’ve just done some redemption travel, delighted to be able to do that.
Paula: But I actually found myself getting quite frustrated.
Paula: And maybe this is just me personally, I shouldn’t be ranting too much.
Paula: But I really wanted much more freedom and flexibility on sharing points with my husband, with our kids or whatever, without necessarily having to pay a fee.
Paula: Because I really found that that was quite difficult.
Paula: Like I’ve earned the points, he doesn’t have enough.
Paula: Why would I have to pay, having earned them, to send them to him?
Paula: So that’s my personal perspective on it.
Paula: But it sounds like that came through as well in your report.
Paula: More and more people want this freedom and flexibility to share what they’re earning.
Zsuzsa: Exactly.
Zsuzsa: And it really means how people want to be seen as people.
Zsuzsa: Like I’m a family member, I’m a mother, I’m a friend.
Paula: Yes.
Zsuzsa: So they want to use their program, their loyalty program they are part of, as part of their lives.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: In my case, I’m the one who is buying shoes, and it’s my husband who is buying shoes for the kids.
Zsuzsa: I really don’t like to go shoe shopping with the kids.
Zsuzsa: He is very okay with that.
Zsuzsa: But I have a hard time transferring my points to my husband.
Zsuzsa: I can’t even screenshot my card, because it gives me the black page, you know.
Zsuzsa: So I can’t earn and they would burn, because the loyalty program doesn’t make it possible.
Zsuzsa: This thing has multiple names, is it shared accounts or householding or family accounts.
Zsuzsa: All these things are the same things.
Zsuzsa: In our software, we call them clubs.
Zsuzsa: It can be classes together, it can be charity, earning together for a charity.
Zsuzsa: It is the same thing, it is seeing the person as a person.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And for me again, I suppose, you know, I know it exists, but I feel like that the liability management is excessive.
Paula: And therefore the terms and conditions make it a very poor customer experience.
Paula: So sounds like that’s again what your members are saying and something anybody listening to this show can really think about going, can we be more generous?
Paula: You know, of course, we have to manage fraud, but there has to be a way that people can feel proud if it is that they want the husband to go and do the shoe shopping or whatever it is.
Paula: So lots of big trends.
Paula: So as we said, the key then for this particular loyalty report, we’re linking to it in our own show notes.
Paula: For people who want to access it directly on your own website, Zsuzsa, where would you direct them to if they want to download the report today?
Zsuzsa: Definitely to our website and especially these days it’s front and center.
Zsuzsa: So you will find it.
Zsuzsa: It’s the Global Customer Loyalty Report 2025 and the title is Loyalty In The Age Of AI.
Zsuzsa: We didn’t even talk much about AI, but the point is that AI is here to help us.
Zsuzsa: And in terms of Loyalty Program Owners, 37% are already using when it’s supported by an agency.
Zsuzsa: It’s 10% more, 47% that is already using it.
Zsuzsa: And who is thinking that it is important to use AI?
Zsuzsa: It’s 60% of Loyalty Program Owners and 70% of agency owners.
Zsuzsa: Maybe it feels that it’s nice to work with an outside agency, who has the expertise and the courage, and they want to differentiate themselves to you, because they would be the experts and users of AI.
Paula: Indeed.
Zsuzsa: AI will be here for us, and this is actually also the direction of our own product.
Paula: Well, that is exactly my next question.
Paula: So I know you’ve had a major product update recently.
Paula: Lots of amazing things, but I think you’re probably best to introduce them.
Paula: I loved your new avatar, for example, particularly modeled on one of your own consultants.
Paula: So tell us about the, I suppose, major enhancements.
Paula: And the context for them.
Paula: I think when we were planning this call and this conversation, the idea of your loyalty planner was the one that really struck me.
Paula: And again, just for anyone who doesn’t know my background, I was in a telco, you know, with big ideas about designing a program and no expertise on how to do that.
Paula: This was back in 2010.
Paula: So way before AI was even being mentioned.
Paula: So tell us what is your AI product doing already?
Paula: Because I know it’s had dramatic enhancements recently.
Zsuzsa: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: So well, all the product enhancements that we’ve done is basically based on your experience, Paula.
Paula: Totally.
Zsuzsa: Because you were the Loyalty Manager with the target to make it successful.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: With the budget approved, you had the blessing of all the management, the board and everyone.
Zsuzsa: You knew what you wanted to do.
Zsuzsa: Maybe you even picked who would be the agency you would be working with, who would be the technology that you would be working with, like what is your overall strategy about the loyalty program.
Zsuzsa: But there is this awkward moment.
Zsuzsa: There is this awkward moment.
Zsuzsa: Then, OK, let’s do this.
Zsuzsa: Then how are we going to do this?
Paula: Exactly.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Panic.
Paula: Yeah, exactly.
Zsuzsa: We are treating that moment with this whole product and the process that comes after that, because this is what the planner does.
Zsuzsa: So, so far we had the engine, which is the technology behind loyalty programs.
Zsuzsa: It’s the handling of points and rewards, making it happen, making it very fast.
Zsuzsa: You can imagine, like one of our customers is one of the most famous influencers in the world.
Zsuzsa: If they post one post on LinkedIn, oh, not sorry, not LinkedIn, but Instagram, well, the whole shop blows up and then we need to handle very big load.
Zsuzsa: And that is what the engine is for.
Zsuzsa: The engine is for.
Zsuzsa: But we’ve built the planner.
Zsuzsa: And the planner is to create the concept of the loyalty program in the technology.
Zsuzsa: There are all these different parts, workflows and very important edge cases, because this is what usually is forgotten and gives the most stress to companies.
Zsuzsa: Like, what is it I forgot?
Zsuzsa: What happens if that happens?
Zsuzsa: Or this doesn’t happen?
Zsuzsa: So these edge cases need to be taken care of.
Zsuzsa: And this planner, we promise to make the planning part of the implementation 10 times faster.
Paula: Wow.
Zsuzsa: And we have these beautiful, beautiful results.
Zsuzsa: It really worked in parallel with our own journey as a company.
Zsuzsa: Because two years ago, we had these implementation times of six or eight months.
Zsuzsa: But today, just this year, Flying Tiger, the company, the retail company who sell these beautiful knickknacks, Yes, loved them.
Zsuzsa: launched in four weeks.
Paula: Wow.
Zsuzsa: Four weeks.
Zsuzsa: Wow.
Zsuzsa: It made it to our board meeting as a piece of news because we were very proud of that and very happy about that.
Paula: Yeah.
Zsuzsa: That they were able to launch this fast.
Zsuzsa: So this is what the planner does.
Paula: Flying Tiger is an extraordinary brand, extremely innovative.
Paula: I think anybody, certainly in Europe, I’m not sure if they’re in the US market, but anytime I go into a Flying Tiger, I come out buying stuff that I never knew I needed.
Paula: And I’m thrilled.
Paula: Badminton rackets or I don’t know, it’s a real fun store.
Paula: So amazing and kratzing on having them as a client.
Paula: So as we sit here today, the loyalty planner, pardon me, is in beta, as I understand it.
Paula: I think you’re inviting people to apply for access to play with it so they can get a sense of what’s coming.
Paula: So tell us a little bit about that.
Paula: What’s the opportunity?
Zsuzsa: So the beta is open for both the planner and the AI functionality that we built around the planner and around the engine.
Zsuzsa: And this is actually the very fun and interesting part.
Zsuzsa: And I’m so happy that we’ve done this because Timmy Garoi, who is our long term business analyst, she’s with the company for, I don’t know, 10 years or 11 years.
Zsuzsa: She was on our wedding.
Zsuzsa: I know her so well.
Paula: Wow.
Zsuzsa: She is, and in the best sense of the word, the know-it-all about Loyalty Programs.
Zsuzsa: So when a new customer comes, and before launch, launches a program, the customer comes to Timmy, who takes care of the finer details and the edge cases and so on.
Zsuzsa: So basically, we modeled the planner based on her expertise, and we thought, why wouldn’t we turn her into an AI avatar?
Zsuzsa: So this is what we’ve done.
Zsuzsa: We turned our business analyst into an AI avatar.
Zsuzsa: We called it Timmy AI, and it was a big thing when we launched it last year in October.
Zsuzsa: It made it to Reuters.
Zsuzsa: It was a lot of media talking about this, because it was a very interesting thing.
Zsuzsa: So basically, we scanned her face, and we may be teaching the AI to all her knowledge, or Antavo’s knowledge, the product’s knowledge, and what we know about loyalty.
Zsuzsa: So you can ask anything, and it speaks like 80 languages, and it talks like Timmy talks.
Zsuzsa: This is what we’ve done, and it was quite fun to do it, and now it’s in beta, and that is also available on the website.
Paula: Amazing.
Zsuzsa: I’m also very happy about the journey, how we’ve done this together with Timmy, because as she started off as an intern, and she become over the course of 10 years, in the best sense, de-noit of Loyalty Programs, and a very valuable asset to the company, she is the best person to be turned into an AI avatar.
Zsuzsa: I remember our CEO giving her a phone call, like describing the idea, like, what do you think about that, Timmy?
Zsuzsa: She asked for a couple of days to think about that.
Paula: Digested, yeah.
Zsuzsa: If she could give her likeness to this avatar, and then eventually she said, yes, let’s do that.
Zsuzsa: She is compensated for her likeness.
Paula: Amazing.
Zsuzsa: And also she can withdraw her consent, because we know that no one has done it before.
Zsuzsa: So we just want it to be like, sensible, reasonable, and also flexible and respectful about it.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: I love that.
Paula: I think she must feel truly immortalized, because she is.
Paula: But as you said, you took the approach full of integrity to make sure that you had her time, her permission, the likeness and the compensation, because everybody wants to feel like they’re sharing in the success.
Paula: And what I can imagine, I’d love to meet Timmy someday.
Paula: I know we have some screenshots in this video.
Paula: Anybody watching on loyalty TV can obviously see those.
Paula: But this idea that she’s now vested in making sure that that AI tool has all of her knowledge literally in real time.
Paula: So as she learns, the AI learns, and everybody grows and benefits from her in 80 different languages.
Paula: So you must be incredibly proud, Zsuzsa.
Paula: That’s an incredible achievement.
Zsuzsa: I think so.
Zsuzsa: And almost a lot of time saved, because AI can help us with things that take so much time for humans.
Zsuzsa: If you think of a loyalty program and like a customer asking about, why don’t I have this thousand point and I have this hundred point?
Zsuzsa: Why is this happening?
Zsuzsa: Before that, companies would have needed to spend these hours in the history to figure it out.
Zsuzsa: But now with the help of Timmy AI, it’s a minute.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: Well, I can’t wait to play with Timmy.
Paula: So please give me beta access.
Paula: That’s going to be super excited, given that I had the exact pain point that you’ve designed this for.
Paula: So congrats on the new product launch.
Paula: I know there’s lots happening on a continuous basis.
Paula: I feel like we could talk for another full hour, Zsuzsa, but our time is definitely up for today.
Paula: Was there any other key point for our audience that you wanted to mention before we wrap up?
Zsuzsa: I think my key point is that if you are into loyalty today, you are at a good place because the space is growing, loyalty programs are needed by customers.
Zsuzsa: And if you download the report, you will even have the supporting numbers.
Zsuzsa: Convince your colleagues to convince your management or board if they need to be convinced.
Paula: Indeed.
Paula: And I think the reason I fell in love with loyalty was that idea of the win-win-win.
Paula: The business wins, the customer wins, and at the end of the day, everybody just feels super proud.
Paula: So on that note, I’m going to say Zsuzsa Kecsmar, co-founder and chief strategy officer of Antavo AI Loyalty Cloud.
Paula: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Zsuzsa: Thank you.
Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
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