#240: Collinson's Daniel Cantorna Shares Loyalty Insights and Innovation from the Asia Pacific Region

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.

PAULA: This episode is brought to you by Collinson, worldwide leaders in loyalty, creating and orchestrating loyalty initiatives and programs for some of the world’s biggest brands in travel, retail, and financial services.

PAULA: Doing it globally for over 30 years.

PAULA: Want to know more?

PAULA: Go to collinsongroup.com.

PAULA: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty, with a focus on some of the most interesting ideas, innovations and insights coming from the Asia Pacific Region.

PAULA: My guest today is Dan Cantorna, whose background includes over 15 years in loyalty marketing, automation, integration, business intelligence, and advanced analytics for global enterprise organizations.

PAULA: Dan is now the Vice President of Data, Insights and Technology with Collinson’s Asia Pacific team based in Hong Kong.

PAULA: In today’s discussion, Dan showcases some of the fascinating insights and loyalty innovations emerging from both China and the Asia Pacific Region as a whole.

PAULA: A market he described as a crystal ball to give us loyalty marketeers an insight on consumers increasing expectations as our world becomes more and more digital.

PAULA: Dan also shares some of Collinson’s latest projects, reimagining loyalty programs for brands like Mandarin Oriental Hotels specifically for the Chinese market.

PAULA: So, Dan Cantorna, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.

DAN: Hello, thanks for having me.

PAULA: Great.

PAULA: Are you joining me today from Hong Kong?

DAN: I am not in Hong Kong today, but I am usually based in Hong Kong.

DAN: Today, I’m in London.

PAULA: Beautiful.

PAULA: Well, I think I might have said to you before, Hong Kong and the whole Asia Pacific Region, to me, is incredibly exciting.

PAULA: So I’ve been looking forward to speaking to you for a long time and hearing about all of the amazing work you’re doing there with Collinson.

PAULA: So to kick us off, please do tell me, Dan, what is your favourite personal loyalty programme?

DAN: Sure.

DAN: Well, thanks for having me.

DAN: Unfortunately, it’s going to be one that I’m sure you’ve heard before.

DAN: It’s I think Amex has really got one of the best loyalty offerings globally as a customer that I’ve experienced having lived in many places in the world.

DAN: It’s probably one which is that, yeah, it’s a bit dull, because a lot of people probably reference it.

DAN: But the fact that I think they’ve got, they’ve really nailed all of the elements of reward and recognition in a really good and strong way.

DAN: You know, you’ve got entry to lounges.

DAN: You can convert those points to an AMRs of your choice.

DAN: So it’s not you’re not locked into any one particular airline.

DAN: You get discounts on dining.

DAN: You get discounts on experiences.

DAN: You get status.

DAN: You know, I’ve been in events in the US where there’s an AMEX lounge or an AMEX stand, and you can get special privilege access to go and, you know, do work at a conference where, you know, you just have to flash your AMEX card to get in.

DAN: And it’s just one of those, it’s one of those programs where it continuously surprises me, the value that you gain back from the program, beyond the boundaries of what you think it is.

DAN: Yes.

DAN: So for me, that’s why I think it’s great.

DAN: Obviously, there are loads of other ones in Asia, which I think do individual things very well.

DAN: But in terms of one with global reach, breadth, depth and scale, that makes for me.

PAULA: So that’s a great example to kick us off.

PAULA: So you clearly know a lot about loyalty, Dan.

PAULA: Tell us all about your, I suppose, career in the industry so far.

DAN: So I’m currently vice president for data insights and technology with Collinson in Asia Pacific.

DAN: Collinson is a global leader in loyalty benefits and travel experiences.

DAN: We provide services, products and capabilities across three main sets.

DAN: So we’ve got loyalty customer experience, which is all about building the experience and the dialogue and the communication with the customer.

DAN: We’ve then got loyalty commerce, which is the way that people interact and use their points through earn and burn.

DAN: And we also are one of the, probably one of the biggest global provider of loyalty travel benefits.

DAN: And that ranges across a number of different areas where we support over 1400 financial services institutions with things like access to lounge, flight delay, and the various loyalty benefits that they support to their customers.

DAN: So that’s where I am now.

DAN: In the sands of time, I started off in the early days.

DAN: I worked on some of the really kind of pre-broadband.

DAN: Attempts to do real-time loyalty.

DAN: So I worked on…

PAULA: Wow.

DAN: My first project was working on pulling in data for Nectar in the UK.

DAN: So integrating that data from your…

DAN: .

DAN: when you’re still paying for your shopping.

DAN: Getting that data back into the servers to calculate your points.

DAN: And back then when the internet was, you know, it took 15 minutes to load a picture.

PAULA: Yeah.

DAN: That was a tall order.

DAN: That’s funny.

DAN: So I’ve bounced around in the data tech space of loyalty for quite a number of years, over 15 years.

DAN: And I’ve sort of…

DAN: Along the way, I’ve picked up a few skills around the marketing aspects and the strategy.

DAN: But like I say, my core skill sets really around the…

DAN: It’s the making it happen piece.

DAN: Working with my colleagues who have the great ideas.

DAN: And trying to make those a reality with the, you know, with the simple tools that we have, the chisels and the clay tablets that have then got to turn that into exciting experiences.

PAULA: Sounds like you have a real lifelong passion for loyalty.

DAN: Yeah, absolutely.

DAN: I think it’s a really interesting space.

DAN: I mean, from a data perspective, as a data professional, you know, loyalty is amazing.

DAN: It’s one of the best ways to really, truly understand the needs and the wants of your customer and to try to be able to target, personalise and address those.

DAN: So for me, seeing the evolution of that over the last, even the last five years, I’d say, we’ve gone into sort of accelerated overdrive, where now we’re trying to, you know, we’re trying to predict people’s emotions, and that’s amazing.

DAN: You know, just from what you buy and what you spend your money on, we can tell what kind of emotional state you’re in.

DAN: That’s, you know, that’s a phenomenal amount of progress from, oh, you know, two for one or three for two, but back in the old days.

PAULA: That’s amazing.

DAN: Yeah, absolutely.

DAN: Brilliant.

PAULA: So data definitely, Dan.

PAULA: I mean, it’s obviously something that, as an industry, we obsess over, and rightly so.

PAULA: I think it’s the fundamental reason that most of us can justify, I suppose, the investment in loyalty at the very beginning, at the outset.

PAULA: And with that explosion, I suppose, of data, I suppose what kind of demands or inquiries or interests are you finding coming through?

PAULA: And I think I’m particularly interested in your perspective from Asia Pacific, Dan, because, you know, I do think that, you know, certain countries there are so far ahead of us in terms of what their capabilities are.

PAULA: So you probably have amazing insights of things that are happening there that the rest of us haven’t seen yet.

DAN: I mean, let’s start with China.

DAN: So, you know, China is the most digital, native economy, experience, like place you can go.

DAN: You know, people are so heavily integrated into their digital, into their day to day lives.

DAN: And so they have very, very high expectations of brands.

DAN: And they not only, they don’t want to interact with a company.

DAN: They want to interact with a brand like it’s the same way they interact with their friend.

DAN: They want to be able to have that, you know, element of dialogue, community, understanding, and to really to get to that kind of depth of relationship with a person as a company.

DAN: You really need to know a lot about them.

DAN: You really need to be picking up on signals.

DAN: So, you know, personalisation is absolutely critical.

DAN: And if you can’t get your data in order, you haven’t got a hope in getting that right.

DAN: And what we’ve seen is the pandemic has definitely created like an accelerated wave everywhere else around the world, driving us forward in the same direction, where that consumer expectation is no longer, I don’t want to interact with a brand.

DAN: People do business with people, and they want the brand to feel like a person.

DAN: So when I talk to you, I want it to feel authentic, like a human interaction.

DAN: You must know, when you contact, say, customer service and you’re getting that robot that’s like, please say what you would like and then get it wrong four times.

DAN: That’s incredibly frustrating.

DAN: So where we’re starting to build, and that will lead into my second theme, which is AI, where you’re trying to add things like AI into your workflow and into your loyalty programs.

DAN: You’ve got to get it right, and you’ve got to get it right by understanding what your customer wants.

DAN: So these two things go hand in hand.

DAN: So those are kind of the first two.

DAN: So once you first of all need to have sufficient data to know your customer well enough to be able to personalize rewards, recognitions, and the dialogue you have with them at every step, every touch.

DAN: That’s foundational.

DAN: From there, you then want to add AI through the customer journey.

DAN: So when you’re building that dialogue, you can’t have humans picking content for this anymore.

DAN: You need to have the scale to be able to deliver this to so many different individuals that you really do need to have AI baked into your customer journey.

DAN: But you’ve got to get that right.

DAN: You know, having a robot that can pick from 10 answers or from 10 solutions is not the solution.

DAN: It’s not really solving a problem.

DAN: It’s just automating something in which people already find irritating.

DAN: Getting AI right again is having the right strategy around that.

DAN: Two other things which I’d say are more slightly further down the horizon, which we see already in China, but we see coming out of China, are pay to play loyalty.

DAN: So China has a lot of in the moment interactions where people want to interact with a brand in the moment.

DAN: And they’re willing to pay to access or unlock status or benefits or pieces of a loyalty program, which they may not have earned enough points for yet or earned enough status for yet.

DAN: So having a pay to play loyalty component to your program is very common in China.

DAN: And in the West, we resist it, and there’s a lot of people saying things like, oh, well, then you’re just making it about pay, you’re just unbundling loyalty, and you’re really kind of breaking loyalty by allowing people to pay for things.

DAN: But what we’re finding is that if you get it right, if you get the blend right, where there’s the right amount of reward recognition that can be earned and the right set of benefits that can be paid to unlock, almost like Candy Crush, where it’s a freemium game, right?

DAN: You can keep playing for free, but you can also pay to get some extra gems, right?

DAN: And that’s what we see a lot of and becoming a lot more commonplace.

DAN: And finally, sorry, I know it’s a long answer, it’s the evolution of digital is leading to more and more rich experiences.

DAN: And so we’ve all had lots about the metaverse and augmented reality, NFTs, and people see that as this kind of, at the moment, it’s being perceived as this really far off in the horizon.

DAN: You know, I’ve got to go into a 3D world with glasses on.

DAN: But this stuff exists already today.

DAN: You know, metaverse interactions where I can have a character that can go into a virtual store and shop around and talk to a virtual assistant about what I want to buy.

DAN: These things are real and exist already and they don’t need any special technology.

DAN: They’re just a phone.

DAN: So, taking the experience beyond just, you know, here’s a picture or here is, you know, here’s a piece of text, you know, video content, KOLs.

DAN: It’s adding layers and layers and layers and depth to the digital experience for the consumer that we see is becoming more complex month by month, year by year.

PAULA: It’s utterly fascinating, Dan, and I suppose my first question on all of that extraordinary opportunity for brands is, is that, you know, I suppose, dependent on having, you know, the infrastructure of a WeChat, for example, like the super apps that can support, you know, extraordinary experiences like that?

PAULA: Like, do you think it’s unique to China right now?

PAULA: Or do you see other markets in APAC or even elsewhere around the world starting to actively, you know, engage with these kind of concepts?

DAN: Yes, so absolutely.

DAN: China has a huge head start in so much as they have the super app, which is WeChat, which allows you to do all of that stuff through one single pane of glass.

DAN: They absolutely have that as a head start.

DAN: In other parts of the world, in other parts of APAC, we’re seeing pieces of it coming together.

DAN: So a very common scenario, which we’re seeing now with Loyalty, is WhatsApp kind of concierging some simple WhatsApp e-commerce type experiences.

DAN: Similarly with Instagram, and then in some parts of Asia line, we also see that the banking apps and financial services are trying to become super apps, but for a specialized purpose.

DAN: So for your banking app, you can now go shopping with discounts.

DAN: You can tap into partners.

DAN: You can earn through your, you can bind your favorite, you know, frequent flyer program to your banking app.

DAN: And those can partner collaborate.

DAN: So those kinds of things are coming together in a slightly more sophisticated way than, you know, historically, you just had the co-branded credit card.

DAN: Now you’ve actually got some kind of co-branded interfaces through your app.

PAULA: Super, super.

PAULA: And I’ve talked a lot about WhatsApp on this show, Dan.

PAULA: It’s definitely the one that I, I suppose, as a consumer most excited about.

PAULA: And I’ve seen just a lot coming out from Meta, who obviously own WhatsApp, just in the last even three or four weeks, Dan.

PAULA: I don’t know if you’ve seen it yourself, but you know, there is an appetite, I think, you know, at the platform level to support loyalty practitioners, I think, like us, who want to be creative and want to have these levels of innovation.

PAULA: So I think it’s going to be a super exciting time.

PAULA: And what I really also was wanted to ask you, Dan, in that, in fact, there’s lots of things that you mentioned that I’m super curious about.

PAULA: But the one that you mentioned about pay to play, that almost sounds, and just correct me if I’m wrong, it sounds almost like a hybrid between our traditional free programs and a full subscription for all benefits, almost like people can opt into a selection of, as you said, unbundled loyalty benefits, just in a moment if they’re feeling impatient or they need to top up.

PAULA: Is that what you’re saying?

DAN: Absolutely, yes.

DAN: So let me give you a good scenario.

DAN: So in the context, say, of a hotel, I might have already within the loyalty programme, I may have enough status that I can access a free night.

DAN: But when I arrive at the hotel, I may want to pay down and also upgrade that to a superior room.

DAN: And that may be with the tier up from where I’m at, but I can say, look, here, I’ll put down a certain amount of money, combining that with my reward or with my existing status to get me to that next level up.

DAN: Or it could be that you want to unlock, say, for example, I just want to unlock access to a lounge at an airport because I’m about to travel.

DAN: And that’s not part of my…

DAN: I don’t have that within my tier, but I’m just going to pay for instant access.

DAN: That’s one of the benefits in the next tier up, but I’ll pay to access that one benefit just here and now in the moment.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah, lovely.

PAULA: And as you said, data underpins all of it.

PAULA: And what I do like is when a brand does know what to offer me in terms of something that I might want to avail of.

PAULA: So even if it is on a paid basis, I think that’s a really nice idea that I haven’t really thought about before.

DAN: Yeah, and I think it’s a tricky one because we often think about the complexity of the programme.

DAN: If you start allowing people to pay for individual elements and individual benefits, it starts to make the programme complex.

DAN: Of course it does.

DAN: But it’s where the consumer demand is going.

DAN: It’s the ability that I want it and I want it now.

DAN: And if you can fulfil that need, there’s a huge amount of value that you can gain from that.

PAULA: Yeah, and you’re absolutely right, Dan.

PAULA: I suppose it is a fine balance between keeping the programme simple enough to get people engaged and educate themselves along that journey, at the same time allowing us very complex solutions for them.

PAULA: Because again, we’re all getting very demanding as consumers.

PAULA: But I suppose if we have the underlying data in place, it’s possible to plan for.

PAULA: But I still find that a lot of companies struggle with the complexity of capturing and optimising their data, Dan.

PAULA: What’s your experience working, I suppose, again, different regions around the world, but predominantly in APAC?

PAULA: Do you think people have their house in order in terms of their data set?

DAN: Sadly, no.

PAULA: I was hoping they would.

DAN: We regularly run some research with a large number of loyalty leaders across the region.

DAN: We talk to loyalty leaders in Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia.

DAN: We ask questions, these exact questions.

DAN: We ask 1,000 brands, what’s the most important thing?

DAN: Talk to us about what you’re trying to do with loyalty.

DAN: They’re saying, we would like to use data to identify our loyal customers.

DAN: Say 300 out of 1,000 want to do that.

DAN: We say, all right, great.

DAN: You guys are really on the money.

DAN: You’re trying to identify your loyal customers.

DAN: How many of you guys have considered that once you’ve identified those customers, you then need data to know what to reward them with?

DAN: And only a third of those people have considered that.

DAN: And then we ask the question, how many of those, so now we’re down to say 100 companies out of 1,000.

DAN: How many of you guys have considered that you need, that maybe you have underlying data gaps to identify the customers in the first place?

DAN: And it turns out that only about 8% of businesses have thought through the whole concept of identifying loyal customers requires uncovering the data gaps we have in our collection methodology.

DAN: So very few brands, while many brands have identified the mega problem, the big problem, very few have kind of got the strategy that will lead to the results that they’re trying to obtain.

DAN: So that’s often where we find ourselves stepping in as Collinson to advise, and that’s usually one of the first conversations we have with our clients is to say where are you at with your data story?

DAN: What’s your strategy?

DAN: What are you collecting?

DAN: What are you doing with it?

DAN: And often we very quickly identify that the opportunity to personalise is very limited because you are not collecting the right things about your customer.

PAULA: And would the aptitude be there?

PAULA: I mean, it sounds like, as you said, a lot of people, first of all, understand, OK, yes, it’s an opportunity if we want to personalise.

PAULA: But is it coming, would you say, at the C-suite level, where there is maybe a bigger vision of the potential for personalisation?

PAULA: Or would you say it’s coming from the likes of us as loyalty practitioners?

DAN: So that’s another…

DAN: That’s an interesting one.

DAN: So we see that the vision exists and the loyalty professionals have the belief in what they would like to achieve, which is what we’re talking about.

DAN: It’s when you then talk to the people who are responsible for achieving and activating the results, they are a lot more pessimistic about what they’re doing.

DAN: So I think there’s definitely a gap between the vision and the delivery.

DAN: And one of the things which I’m a huge advocate of, is that loyalty needs to not be a sort of siloed adjunct to a business.

DAN: You need to have within a company a very interconnected approach to loyalty.

DAN: Because it spreads across so many of the departments who should have an interest in it and should have a stake in it.

DAN: And then when you get down to the data level, data goes beyond the data is part of every business nowadays.

DAN: It’s the same as technology.

DAN: It’s pervasive.

DAN: So data is the responsibility of everyone in a company, not just this little data team who we lock in a room somewhere, who are solving all our data problems with no input.

DAN: And so these are some of the challenges.

DAN: It’s part of the kind of evolution that we try to take our customers on, which is that you’ve got to get these different groups talking and working together more closely to get those kinds of results, because it’s great having the vision and the strategy, but very often those strategies don’t link in a meaningful way to what the data folk are doing.

PAULA: Yeah, I totally agree.

PAULA: And I think there is a job to be done worldwide for all of us to be able to bring all of the departments, pardon me, together with traditionally, I suppose, exclusive KPIs around functional areas and align them all to a vision about customer loyalty.

PAULA: And first of all, being loyal to your customers, obviously with the goal of driving behavior change and getting loyalty back from them.

PAULA: So it sounds like you’re hearing the same thing that there’s still a lot of more collaboration and education internally required, particularly, I guess, coming in from your perspective where you’re being brought in as external experts.

DAN: Absolutely, absolutely.

DAN: I think, you know, strategy is 20% of the process, and the change management and the organizational realignment is 80% of the challenge that we often find ourselves trying to help our customers to solve.

PAULA: Yeah, my God, yeah, that’s very clear.

PAULA: And I think, yeah, at least if you can start with that level of preparation psychologically for the business, actually, that definitely helps manage expectations in terms of what’s going to be involved to get the whole thing moving in a way to look up to what customers are needing.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And then I suppose with, you know, almost a continuation down of that, but, you know, the fact that we do all have our own KPIs, you know, there also has to, of course, be, you know, KPIs around the investment for the loyalty program itself.

PAULA: So how do you manage to get people aligned to, you know, I suppose, understanding what their core KPIs might be for building a program?

DAN: So I think they vary by industry in terms of what you’re trying to measure, but inevitably, in this, undoubtedly, you’re trying to drive up value for the business.

DAN: So it’s about finding the right track and the right measure that’s going to show you that.

DAN: So that could be, you know, from, if you’re in a hotel, that could be the number of room stays, the number of, you know, the average spend per stay.

DAN: If you’re in an airline, that’s to know that it’s the number, it’s the number of bookings per period of time, when that’s the, you know, financial services, it’s the overall value of that customer has with the brand.

DAN: I mean, generally speaking, we are always driving towards some kind of measure of customer score, customer value to the back to the brand, and how we track and track that that is growing as a result of being part of the loyalty program, and invariably we’re able to prove that through whichever measure that we land on.

DAN: I’m quite a fan of just having a core high score, like a loyalty score where you can just say, this is the numeric, you know, the numeric number of interactions I’ve had with that customer.

DAN: And you can correlate that to spend.

DAN: So if I’ve touched that customer and talked to that customer three times and they’ve spent this much, then I can say, you know, the amount of interactions I had with that customer translated it into X value.

PAULA: Yeah, absolutely.

PAULA: And I like the simplicity of that approach, Dan, because, you know, I do hear a lot of people talking about so many measures.

PAULA: And, you know, I do like myself, I suppose, to understand, you know, just I suppose an emotional intention of the program.

PAULA: So, you know, just at a cultural level, like why are we starting on this journey?

PAULA: But then I think you’re absolutely right to put a measure alongside that, that everyone can kind of see how their department is contributing into that one overall metric, you know, something like an NPS score, for example, in my mind, that feels like it’s something everybody can kind of share as an objective to build over the long term, because let’s be honest, loyalty is not a short-term business.

PAULA: I think we all think once the programme’s launched, you know, we’ve got the job done, but I think it’s only starting at that point, huh?

DAN: Absolutely.

PAULA: And you’re right.

DAN: And you’re right, you know, attribution is always an exciting and fun discussion.

DAN: We all love the attribution across, interdepartmental attribution is also, yeah, it’s difficult.

DAN: It’s difficult.

DAN: So you’ve got to boil it down to something that you can keep quite simple.

DAN: And I think number of touches or number of touches that you’ve influenced, you know, whatever the way, the right way to be fair to the different parties involved.

DAN: But generally speaking, that is a core measure.

DAN: I’m glad that you’ve touched on emotional and move away from transactional into experiential loyalty because that’s something I’m very keen on.

DAN: I think it’s one that people still are figuring out what that actually means to businesses.

DAN: And I think that’s an interest for me.

DAN: That’s an interesting theme of where we go because data and emotion are somewhat diametrically opposed, but we have to kind of come up with ways to score it.

DAN: And that’s a challenge that we’re always working on, trying to improve the way that we can score what are people’s emotions within the program.

PAULA: Yes, you alluded to it earlier, Dan, and certainly on the show, a few times we’ve talked about that being a huge objective.

PAULA: But I guess when I think back, it’s probably in, let’s say, markets like the UK, for example.

PAULA: I would hear that coming out a lot and in Europe.

PAULA: So it seems to be very clear, at least in that part of the world, that that’s what’s needed.

PAULA: Whereas as you said, it still seems to be much more around in Asia, at the risk of generalizing, more around instant gratification and how can I get more status and that kind of thing.

PAULA: So do you see that trend then for emotional loyalty as well in Asia Pacific?

DAN: So in our most recent study in Asia, investment in emotional loyalty was quite low.

DAN: Only a few percent of the people we surveyed are investing in that as a theme.

DAN: However, I see a very clear bridge from recognition to emotion.

DAN: So I think that within the Asian market, having status, having that unlock, having access to things that money can’t buy, is what drives the emotional loyalty.

DAN: It’s the fact that you can say to your friend, I’ve got a black card that’s going to get us into this.

DAN: Q jump to this restaurant, or I’ve got this special unlock that’s going to get us into this bar that you’ve got to normally put down a three month waiting list for.

DAN: It’s those types of things, which we’re starting to see more frequently as brands, particularly luxury brands that have properties or have bars, like hotels and things like that, start to try to drive more value from their existing assets.

DAN: They’re curating and creating some very interesting concepts around that gamified unlock.

DAN: And that, I think, is a natural link to emotional bond.

DAN: Like I said, the Chinese consumer wants to be friends with you.

DAN: It doesn’t want to interact with a brand.

DAN: It wants to feel like it’s doing business with a person.

DAN: So that, in its very nature, is tending to emotional loyalty.

DAN: But it’s not, as a concept, it’s not we’re trying to do emotional loyalty.

DAN: It’s really more about just creating more human-like interactions.

PAULA: Well, I do like the friend concept, Dan, because I do think a lot of people struggle with, you know, emotional loyalty just feels difficult to measure, difficult to execute.

PAULA: How do you know how to do that?

PAULA: Like what actually is going to resonate?

PAULA: It’s more than, you know, partnering with a charity or things that we might have done, you know, quite simplistically in the past.

PAULA: So I do think, you know, thinking of your customer or your member as a friend must change the shift in terms of how you execute.

PAULA: And even, I guess, back to, you know, capturing data, the big topic we’ve talked about already quite a lot, but it must change how even you do that and then how you use it, because I do agree, you know, the status for big brands, the opportunities are just extraordinary.

PAULA: And I know you’ve started doing some work yourselves as Collinson in China as well, Dan, so I’d love to hear a bit about that, because you know I love innovation.

DAN: Of course.

DAN: So we’ve been working at Collinson, we’ve been working with a few brands trying to take them into the China market.

DAN: One of our most recent ones was we’ve been working very closely with the hotel brand Mandarin Oriental.

PAULA: Oh, nice.

PAULA: Yeah.

DAN: So as I said, it’s loyalty outside of China and loyalty inside China work very, very differently in some regards, because you’ve got different channels, different methods of access, but it’s really all about WeChat going into China.

DAN: So we’ve helped them to build their first kind of integrated mechanisms for taking that dialogue into the China market and starting to build out those kind of in the moment experiences.

DAN: And so where we want to go with this is that, you know, as you interact with that hotel, you’re hearing more about what’s available than you’re hearing.

DAN: You’re getting that kind of experiential dialogue with the consumer.

DAN: But then as they arrive on the hotel, they can have a digital experience with almost like a virtual concierge, because, you know, you can scan a QR code and then go on, you know, like an in the moment journey, where it will talk you through what’s available to you.

DAN: And then at the various moments during your stay, it’s going to say, oh, hey, look, you know, maybe now it’s time to have a drink on us, or, you know, have some money off for your meal tonight, because, you know, we love you.

DAN: It’s things like that.

DAN: It’s things like building out these kind of on property in the moment experiences.

DAN: So we’re really excited to be working with them and to be helping them to advance and digitize loyalty 4.0 for their journey.

PAULA: Wow, loyalty 4.0.

PAULA: Well, certainly, I would say, Dan, that that does sound super exciting.

PAULA: And if there’s an opportunity and if Mandarin Oriental want to come on, obviously, once they’ve had some learnings from that, they want to share that with our audience.

PAULA: We would love to have them.

PAULA: So so super exciting.

PAULA: So I think we’ve touched on loads, Dan.

PAULA: I was particularly just interested, I suppose, as a final point on, you know, where you get all of your insights from, Dan, because it’s great to have 15 years, especially pre-broadband.

PAULA: I think that’s hilarious.

PAULA: You’re you’re, you know, dating yourself now, I suppose, with all of that.

PAULA: But just in terms of I know you’ve got clients across, you know, financial services and super strong and travel and hospitality.

PAULA: Well, where do you go to then for for loyalty insights, I suppose?

PAULA: Because again, this audience loves to learn from you and from what you think.

PAULA: So, yeah, just any final thoughts you have on that would be very useful.

DAN: I think we’re very lucky at Collinson, because not only do we do loyalty for our customers, but we own and operate our own very significantly large loyalty program, which is priority pass.

DAN: So that’s we get to learn internally and externally, both as a supplier and the customer.

DAN: In terms of sources, for me, you know, the most common place I’ve come across things obviously is LinkedIn.

DAN: There are hundreds of blogs I read, probably far too boring to list out here on today’s call.

DAN: I love to participate in events.

DAN: In Hong Kong in particular, you know, the world.

DAN: There’s not been that many in the last year, but we participate in FinTech Week, in Martech Week, in Tech Week.

DAN: So for me, I’m doing all the geeky ones.

DAN: But really, any means necessary.

DAN: So I think in-person interactions, you always pick up small, interesting pieces.

DAN: Then obviously, the constant search for content online.

DAN: We’re awash with information these days.

DAN: And then conversations like this are great.

DAN: It’s good to share.

DAN: And I think as loyalty professionals, I really appreciate the opportunity to come and wax lyrical about my experience.

DAN: And hopefully, someone will learn something from what I’ve said today.

PAULA: Well, honestly, it’s a joy for me to have these conversations, Dan.

PAULA: So I’ve really enjoyed our conversations today.

PAULA: As I said, there’s a hundred different directions we could have taken it.

PAULA: I’m assuming you’re happy then if LinkedIn is somewhere you like to spend time, which clearly I do as well.

PAULA: Are you happy for people to reach out?

PAULA: If we link, for example, to your profile, if they want to talk about any of these topics.

PAULA: Well said.

PAULA: Totally on branch.

PAULA: Great.

PAULA: On that note, I will say Dan Cantorna, Vice President of Data, Insight and Technology for Asia Pacific at Collinson.

PAULA: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

DAN: Thank you so much.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.

PAULA: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 245 executives in 27 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.

PAULA: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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