Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.
Paula: So, this afternoon is episode 22 of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: And in fact, it’s going to be quite a different format to what we’ve done in the past, predominantly because we have talked really about structured loyalty programs to date.
Paula: And that’s the industry that I’m in, and that I know, and that I love.
Paula: But the guest here today is a gentleman whose career I have admired over many years, and who has a lot of background, certainly on the communication side of some of Ireland’s top loyalty programs many years ago.
Paula: But in fact, two years ago, he took his ideas to a whole other level, to start working in the whole field of CX, or customer experience.
Paula: He is the founder of an organization called the CX Academy.
Paula: And I recently did some studies with the CX Academy, which I thought were fantastic.
Paula: So Michael is the brains behind it.
Paula: So before I go any further, I’d first of all like to welcome Michael Killeen to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Michael: I’m delighted.
Michael: Very excited.
Paula: Now you’re in my home city of Dublin, Michael.
Paula: So it’s always nice to have a friendly face and a familiar accent on the other end of the line.
Michael: I know what it’s like to be away like that and have contact like this.
Michael: It’s always a pleasure.
Michael: So I get it.
Paula: Great.
Paula: Great.
Paula: So we’re going to talk about CX today in great detail, Michael.
Paula: But before we get into that, obviously here, we do talk a lot about loyalty, and really it is the very traditional definition of loyalty.
Paula: So I know it’s very important to have an understanding of what CX is, and we’ll get into all of that.
Paula: But before we do, I know you have a statistic about CX that we can start with in the same way we talk about loyalty program statistics.
Paula: So before we get into the whole framework, tell me, what is your favorite statistic about customer experience?
Michael: I think it’s actually kind of a depressing statistic.
Michael: Unfortunately, it’s the 88 rule that we have presented in some of our training, and it’s 80% of a research done among CEOs across the world agree that they give their customers an exceptional customer experience.
Michael: However, when the same group, it was a piece of Bain research, asked the customers how they felt about it, only 8% agreed, which gives you this massive gap, and it’s really an expectation gap.
Michael: Really, it makes you sit back and say, how could that be?
Michael: And it does come down to, as you very earlier mentioned, people’s understanding of what customer experience is and really what it’s not.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Well, that’s amazing.
Paula: And actually, what I will do is I’ll make sure that we have a screenshot of that data because you shared it with me beforehand, Michael, and anything that comes from Bain obviously is amazing.
Paula: But if the company thinks they’re doing 80% of excellence and we as consumers say, actually know about a tenth of that, then clearly there is a massive problem going on in terms of everyone’s understanding.
Paula: And I guess for me, I suppose it was a previous episode where I first of all came across the concept of CX and really how advanced it has become as a business discipline.
Paula: And what I realized is as a loyalty practitioner, in fact, I’ve always said to clients, loyalty programs are not going to address bigger problems in the business.
Paula: And I guess what I realized from studying with you guys is CX does address the bigger problems in the business.
Paula: So it’s beyond the structured loyalty programs, and it’s very much around how do customers experience every single aspect of your business.
Paula: So is that a good way to, I suppose, first of all, explain to customers what the CX field is all about?
Michael: I like it.
Michael: And it’s funny, I think one of the questions I’ll attempt to answer before I get into definitions, et cetera, is that customer experience and loyalty, yes, they’re two different disciplines, but they are joined at the hip.
Michael: There’s no question about that.
Michael: I think when we get down to it, I think you’re right, Paula, the idea that customer experience is this umbrella that works through all departments within the organization.
Michael: But it’s kind of started out in that marketing field.
Michael: So a lot of people mix it up with customer service.
Michael: That seems to be the critical issue at the moment.
Michael: They are two different things, and again, very similar and both working together.
Michael: We have a very, very simple definition around customer experience.
Michael: And really, it’s about how you feel after you’ve interacted with a specific company.
Michael: And it’s all about the emotions.
Michael: And your feelings are driven by your expectations.
Michael: And I think one of the stories we always share is that, you and I are going to meet tomorrow in London.
Michael: I’m going to fly from our local flag-carrying airline, Aerolingus.
Michael: You, unfortunately, are going to fly Ryanair.
Michael: Your expectations of your flight coming over are completely different than mine.
Michael: And it’s about the emotion.
Michael: If you get a smile tomorrow, you will be delighted.
Michael: And my expectations will be extremely high.
Michael: So really understand what it is.
Michael: Customer service is all about the functional.
Michael: It’s about allowing me to use a credit card or giving me a bag when I leave, etc.
Michael: But customer experience is about how I feel after engaging with you.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And in fact, on my drive here today, Michael, I had a very poor customer experience, which I may rant about later in our discussion.
Paula: So forgive me.
Paula: But I feel like we need to bring the CX Academy to Dubai to do some work with my bank, at least.
Paula: But before I do any ranting, tell me, I suppose, first of all, just in terms of you have worked a lot on loyalty programs many years ago.
Paula: So maybe tell listeners a bit about that context, because I think it will give everyone a really good sense that you do understand our industry.
Paula: And then I’d love to know, I suppose, where did the light bulb go off in terms of actually, yes, this is the next phase of that kind of overall, I suppose, business intention.
Michael: Yeah, no, listen, I would consider myself to be a loyalty expert.
Michael: I started my career in the States.
Michael: I was lucky enough and honored to work on the American Airlines Freak and Flyer program.
Michael: It was one of the best in the world.
Michael: I would have worked on the Hyatt program, the Hogs program with Harley-Davidson.
Michael: I mean, they were all epic loyalty programs.
Michael: And I came back with that kind of experience to Ireland to kind of set up my own group.
Michael: And we found ourselves doing a fair bit of work across Europe, but then we got stuck into the Irish market.
Michael: And yes, we would have managed a whole range of airline, bank, credit card type loyalty programs.
Michael: So really, I was absolutely fixated with the whole discipline of loyalty.
Michael: And what I loved most about it was the return on investment.
Michael: And therefore, you really have to be clinical in terms of the analytics.
Michael: And I used to cross paths with so many kind of marketeers who had no interest in that element.
Michael: And they got fanned out.
Michael: It was so obvious that loyalty was an incredible discipline.
Michael: It really was successful.
Michael: And I suppose over the years, I just kind of got a feeling that loyalty was losing its voice in those boardroom discussions.
Michael: And not just loyalty, to be fair, I would say marketing in general, but some of those really deep discussions, I wasn’t hearing as much as I used to.
Michael: And that raised an issue for me to say, you know what, what’s going on here?
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And I think that’s a really important point, Michael, because before, I suppose, I even myself became a loyalty consultant, I worked in digital marketing, for example.
Paula: And I think what I really loved about that was, again, that discipline, the return on investment, the measurability.
Paula: And it’s probably something that’s being missed in a lot of the, I suppose, yeah, the budgets and the excitement and the overall decision to invest in the very beginning.
Paula: But the discipline of making sure that you can calculate your return on investment is something that I think we have to be very clear about as commercial marketeers.
Paula: And that, I guess, is the term I always use.
Paula: I’m a commercial marketeer, whether you call it loyalty or you call it CX.
Paula: So it sounds like CX has a very clear focus on return as well.
Michael: It’s a beautiful discipline for that perspective.
Michael: I mean, it covers everything from acquisition ROI to retention ROI to a whole range of different cost savings opportunities that are there.
Michael: So from that perspective, everything is set up really nicely in customer experience, because one, it is an easy discipline to understand.
Michael: But in today’s world, when we’re sitting down with leadership teams, they understand everything.
Michael: It’s not like going in and having a conversation around digital, etc.
Michael: which sometimes goes over, sometimes the majority of times goes over the heads of that age population, but just don’t get it.
Michael: We talk about CX, particularly in the financial side, and they just love it.
Michael: It really is a remarkable conversation, the way that has changed over the years.
Michael: And it’s not just about cost savings, it’s about employee motivation, because happy staff, you will tend to find them in companies that have wonderful customer experience, etc.
Michael: So there’s lots of really nice spin-off benefits from customer experience of question.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: And it is always so rewarding when you end up in those remarkable conversations.
Paula: And I think you’re right to comment on that, because they can be few and far between.
Paula: So plenty of people have had their fingers burnt on some form of marketing or another.
Paula: So to have that, I suppose, very senior level conversation and for them to understand exactly what you’re trying to achieve certainly obviously makes it a field that you have really grown to love.
Michael: Yes, absolutely.
Michael: It’s funny that one of the things that I was always learning in the loyalty space was were we measuring the right KPIs?
Michael: And in some cases, we found that we weren’t.
Michael: We invested a huge amount of time and effort doing that.
Michael: And I think in the CX space, it’s much simpler to figure that out.
Michael: It really is.
Michael: We do things like instead of, you know, in call centers, instead of being worried about how quickly we answer the phone, our focus is on the right KPI, which is being in a position to answer the query brilliantly.
Michael: I don’t mind if it takes a minute for somebody to answer the phone, as long as you give me the answer that will help me move to the next step.
Michael: But if you answer the phone in two or three seconds and you don’t know how to help me, that’s where the issues lie.
Michael: So I think when it comes to measuring the rights, loyalty, marketing in general, sometimes we spend months and months and maybe even years not sure what were the key KPIs for in the CX discipline.
Michael: It’s very, very clear.
Michael: It really is.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: And again, I’ll probably have to rant about my banking experience today.
Paula: Well, it was a robot experience, Michael.
Paula: I’m completely happy with them voice-activated call centers, which gets me to get to the right person.
Paula: But I kept saying, complaint, complaint.
Paula: And it kept saying, we cannot verify what you need.
Paula: And I’m like, oh my God.
Paula: So yeah, it was really, really challenging.
Paula: Anyway, I will stop talking about my personal experiences because I know you have some great studies, Michael.
Paula: I find it interesting, actually, given that you’ve got this new love of this, you know, what to me is a very new discipline.
Paula: You’ve chosen to go into the education side as well as the consultancy, actually, because I understand you do do both.
Paula: And tell me why in particular, because consultancy can be a really great business to get into.
Paula: And again, you have massive experience in that.
Paula: But the education side, that’s quite a different business to what you’ve done in the past.
Paula: So why did you decide there was a need to build these certificates and diplomas?
Michael: Great question, Paula.
Michael: It’s fascinating because our whole organization has completely changed.
Michael: We are in love with training, and none of us have that skill set in our background.
Michael: About four years ago, we were approached by a client to write a piece of training as we were the only people really with the knowledge skills that we had in our market here.
Michael: And we explained to them that wasn’t our area, but we did, and we loved it.
Michael: And very quickly, they asked us, would we deliver it?
Michael: And again, that took us, we had to be courageous to move into that space.
Michael: But there was a real passion about the subject, and we loved the training, and we learned so much more from the feedback from individuals who were literally at the coalface every single day that it actually added to our knowledge base in that space.
Michael: So we are not, we are pleasantly surprised that we are, one of the areas and the key area for us is now in that training space.
Michael: I think the main reason was there is definitely a gap in the market.
Michael: There is no customer experience training out there, certainly in the online space.
Michael: When we started, most of our training was face-to-face, and I sat down with a colleague that I know and trust, and I asked, is there any way we could scale this, because our business was just going through the roof on the face-to-face.
Michael: And as you know, that’s based on ours.
Michael: So we worked on developing an online business that would be scalable.
Michael: Everybody’s dream, of course, and it’s been just so successful.
Michael: We are so excited.
Michael: We developed a certificate, a credit and professional certificate last year, and that now is in 17 different markets, which is just phenomenal.
Michael: And then the diploma was launched in September, and that’s accredited by a very successful university.
Michael: And we’re delighted with the way that is going.
Michael: And the certificate is actually for, it’s a really great foundation course.
Michael: And one of my colleagues shared with me the other day that about 23% of the participants are either CEOs or CFOs.
Michael: I’m going, that is amazing.
Michael: Because everybody is desperate to find out what is it we’re investing in?
Michael: And is there something out there that I can find?
Michael: So it’s not just for front facing staff or back office staff that are supporting the front office staff.
Michael: It’s so fundamental that it really is a strong core trial.
Michael: The diploma is much more for the kind of the head of CX or head of department, because CX does infiltrate all departments.
Michael: And that’s the challenge.
Michael: So we’re really excited about it.
Michael: And as you say, from the feedback we get from internationally, it’s been very, very positive.
Michael: And we’ve got all sorts of plans now for new stuff coming out.
Paula: Super exciting.
Paula: Well, that statistic alone, Michael, you know that it is CEOs and CFOs in big numbers coming through.
Paula: That’s extraordinary, I suppose, to see the commitment at the highest level.
Paula: And certainly something from the loyalty training, say, I’ve done in the past, and the CX certificate that I’ve done with yourself.
Paula: So again, a very good understanding of the certificate.
Paula: There really is, I suppose, that shared understanding that if you’re going to delight customers, it has to start at the top of the company.
Paula: So fantastic to see that you’re reaching the right audience.
Michael: And it’s funny, you know, we find ourselves in a day-to-day kind of involved in more of this kind of transformation type of approach.
Michael: And it’s a word that I don’t like to use because I think it scares a lot of people.
Michael: But ultimately, we have a process, and we’ve been using it successfully.
Michael: And you’re dead right, that the first step in any company to deliver CX excellence is that leadership buy-in.
Michael: And again, funny enough, when you sit down with companies and ask them, where do you rank in leadership buy-in, you will get a huge gap between absolute 100% right down to no, we’re not there yet.
Michael: And it’s amazing how those different opinions exist in large enterprise corporations.
Michael: Once you have the leadership buy-in, you’re absolutely right.
Michael: You then need to get staff involved in designing the CX experience that they want to deliver to their customers.
Michael: And therefore, it’s delivered upward other than downward.
Michael: And it’s funny, you and I coming from a marketing background, I grew up always with the philosophy that the customer is king.
Michael: And I believe that.
Michael: I mean, absolutely 100%.
Michael: And it was really about four or five years ago that I actually realized that was no longer the case.
Michael: And it was more about staff or king, staff are your greatest asset, and happy staff equals happy customer.
Michael: And when we study the CX champions around the world, there are not many companies out there who are doing great work in CX where their staff aren’t 100% supportive of that company.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Yeah, no, it’s a very good point.
Paula: And as we get into it, actually, I know you’ll touch on that more, but particularly I think what would be useful maybe is to talk through the type of the framework, I suppose, that you have developed.
Paula: Because I think for me, the reason I liked it, Michael, was because I can imagine if I was the loyalty program manager or director sitting in a big corporation anywhere in the world, feeling ambitious and wondering where next, I think for a lot of loyalty managers, they might have to change companies to get a career upgrade or the next step.
Paula: But actually, to me, what I would be doing is going, well, hang on a second now.
Paula: I’ve managed to drive loyalty in the traditional way.
Paula: Can I bring CX into my company?
Paula: And that’s where the framework I know you’ve developed would give people like me a very good understanding of the right conversations to be having with the senior management team.
Paula: So I’d love you to talk us through, maybe just initially just summarize the framework and then maybe just give us some examples of those CX champions that you mentioned.
Paula: Because I think we all have a good story, whether we’re Irish or not, it’s always good to hear who is doing customer experience extremely well.
Michael: That’s funny.
Michael: Again, yeah.
Michael: So what I would say is that when anybody who is in the loyalty space understands or sees the framework, they literally sit back and go, I do that.
Michael: I can do that.
Michael: And you sit back and go, oh my God, I am a CX champion.
Michael: I can do all this.
Michael: I’ve been doing this all my life.
Michael: I think the challenge is just to realize there is a framework.
Michael: The challenge is to do each of these pillars, to deliver them consistently.
Michael: And that’s the challenge.
Michael: First of all, where does it come from?
Michael: It comes from a piece of research out of NPS.
Michael: And NPS is a loyalty question.
Michael: LPS is how likely are you to recommend my company to another?
Michael: It comes out of a loyalty question.
Michael: And this framework was designed on the basis that it makes up about 70% of the why somebody recommended or why somebody did not recommend.
Michael: And it is very robust.
Michael: It’s now based on over about 2.5 million consumer interviews around the world.
Michael: So it’s incredibly robust from that perspective.
Michael: But again, if we just fly through, what is it?
Michael: It is an emotional program, as in it’s based on six emotional drivers.
Michael: And the first one is, you know, I trust you.
Michael: So it’s basically, how do you build trust with your customers every single day?
Michael: As we all know, it’s probably the…
Michael: Sorry, it is the most important driver, but it’s also the one that can be easily damaged, damaged the easiest.
Michael: You’ve heard that term, walks in on foot and out like a Ferrari.
Michael: It’s down to that.
Michael: It’s a very, very fragile driver, but it’s there.
Michael: And then from a loyalty perspective, that’s…
Michael: Loyalty programs have always been aiming as a key objective to build and increase trust in the brand it represents.
Michael: We’ve all been given that as a key objective.
Michael: The second one is all about you know me, and it’s basically how do you treat me like an individual?
Michael: How do you understand my needs?
Michael: And again, when you think about what the loyalty program is doing, loyalty got really clever when it started to get deep, deep into data, started to recognize my needs, etc.
Michael: So from a personalization point of view, loyalty drove that.
Michael: I mean, this driver is coming out of a loyalty play, if you ask me.
Michael: The third one is that you make it easy, and it’s basically how do you make it easy for me to do business with you?
Michael: It tends to be a digital play, basically offering channel harmony across all the various elements, be it over the phone, be it online, be it face-to-face.
Michael: And it’s really critical.
Michael: And again, a lot of companies set up their KPIs around one channel, rather making sure that each channel is at the same level.
Michael: If you give me a wonderful online experience but a poor face-to-face experience, you’re going to collapse.
Michael: So it’s really important that we get that consistency in that driver.
Michael: The fourth one again is about you get me.
Michael: So this is basically you genuinely understand what it’s like to stand in my shoes.
Michael: Loyalty practitioners are superb at that.
Michael: That’s what you do in a day-to-day basis.
Michael: You design personas and so on and really get into understanding them.
Michael: So again, it’s something that you have a lot of skill set in.
Michael: The fifth one is you deliver on your promise.
Michael: And this is really about managing meeting and in many cases, trying to exceed my expectations.
Michael: It is so hard to deliver this driver in today’s world because consumers all around the world, their expectations have gone through the roof.
Michael: And it’s really…
Michael: I mean, we used to be always about exceeding our customers’ expectations.
Michael: Now we’re down to just simply trying to manage.
Michael: Even to manage expectations today is difficult.
Michael: It really is.
Michael: And we have to recognize that.
Michael: And then the final one is basically you fix things.
Michael: And that’s like basically when things go wrong, you actually fix them brilliantly.
Michael: So that in your case today, you have an issue with your bank, they should have been able to fix that so that when you hung up with them, it would have been, I have a better relation with these guys than before that issue even started.
Michael: So it’s about finding ways to be heroic in terms of fixing problems.
Michael: They are the six drivers.
Michael: Very, very simple.
Michael: And as you look at them, you sit back as a loyalty practitioner, you say, you know what?
Michael: I work on each of those every single day.
Michael: So where’s the gap here?
Michael: I mean, it really is.
Michael: You can nearly even say that loyalty is feeding into her.
Michael: That was the past driver for the CX explosion.
Paula: Yeah, yeah.
Paula: No, and I genuinely believe that.
Paula: And I’d love to talk, you know, maybe later on just a little bit around how do loyalty managers start to drive, you know, a more holistic approach to CX in their company.
Paula: But just on the point today, I don’t know if you have an opinion on this, Michael, putting you on the spot now.
Paula: But for me, what I would love today, I suppose particularly given a poor experience, first of all, you know, to be acknowledged.
Paula: And I don’t know how call centers manage that.
Paula: And again, we don’t have to get into solutions now.
Paula: But surely when a piece of technology tells you that it’s cutting you off, it needs to realize that that might not be the right solution.
Paula: But it didn’t even give me the opportunity to go to another channel, you know?
Paula: So fixing things brilliantly, you know, feels pretty impossible in terms of my experience today.
Paula: So I guess that has to come into the overall planning.
Paula: And again, only somebody with a true holistic view of the brand and every aspect of the business, again, not a loyalty program manager, would have that level of insight and understanding to go, actually, we’re losing loyal customers because Paul is now upset.
Michael: Let me roll in some really interesting insight here.
Michael: Ireland would be considered a mature market in the CX space.
Michael: We were up there with the UK and the US, ahead of them in certain sectors and behind them in others, but we’re seen as mature.
Michael: Most recent research we did was basically one in eight of Irish consumers will actually call the company and complain, while the other seven will leave and you will never know why.
Michael: And when I raise this, you get lots of nodding heads in the UK and the US, I suspect in the majority markets.
Michael: And my belief is that when a customer takes the time to pick up the phone or go online and complain, they’re actually saying, I’m a loyal customer.
Michael: I want you to fix this because I really like working with you.
Michael: There is a problem here.
Michael: And if you can fix this, fantastic.
Michael: While the other seven will leave and you will never see them or hear them again.
Michael: And look at the cost impact of that.
Michael: So we’re all about basically making it as easy as possible for companies’ customers to make that complaint.
Michael: And rather than taking, responding to the customer with the complaint, as somebody who’s just moaning again, we should be saying, thank you so much for taking the time today to share this with me.
Michael: I am going to fix this for you.
Michael: It may require me to go and speak to a colleague, etc.
Michael: So I am going to manage your expectations well.
Michael: But ultimately, firstly, I am so sorry that this is happening.
Michael: And two, I promise you, I want to fix it.
Michael: And there’s always that other line in there, which is, by the way, this is not the first time this has been raised.
Michael: And that’s a really positive thing to say to somebody, because a lot of times when I complain about something, I actually think I’m the problem here.
Paula: Yeah.
Michael: So when you inform me that actually, thank you, this has come across, I’m sitting back and I’m shaking my head going, I cannot believe you’re helping me.
Michael: Don’t hang up whatever you do.
Michael: Do not hang up the phone.
Michael: This is the most wonderful call.
Michael: And when you think about the role in marketing today is really about, we need to get more of our customers to become advocates on our behalf.
Michael: Let’s get them to sell our company.
Michael: When you fix a problem, they are far more likely to become an advocate.
Michael: In other words, I will put the phone down with an issue you had with your bank today.
Michael: I’ll put the phone back and I’ll turn around to my colleague and I’ll say, you will not believe what Bank X have just done.
Michael: And I’ll be so positive about it.
Michael: And likewise, as you know, I’ll put the phone down and say, you won’t believe what these morons did today.
Michael: So it’s really important that we get that fixed element.
Michael: It’s a very rich, rich area to improve.
Michael: Other insights in this particular area would be, why is it that we pay our call centers, the people who are dealing with those incredibly important calls, we pay them so little?
Michael: What is it?
Michael: These people are on basic wage, and yet they’ve got an incredibly difficult job, but at the same time, they can become our advocacy, or sorry, our acquisition tool, and we pay our salespeople very well, but this group of people who are dealing with complaints, they don’t get the respect I believe that they deserve.
Paula: And I think that’s a brilliant insight, Michael.
Paula: The biggest pain point is at the point of complaining, and you’re absolutely right.
Paula: I literally said, I wish I knew how to complain, because I don’t want to change my bank, but I don’t even know how to complain.
Paula: So I am now being forced into the position of being one of the seven out of eight, which now is going to go and tell people a name who this bank is in an offline conversation with my level of frustration, with purely a view to how do I get my pain solved because it’s such a fundamental service.
Paula: So thank you for acknowledging my pain.
Paula: That’s brilliant.
Paula: And even what I’m hearing coming through, Michael, is probably one of my favorite words as well.
Paula: And it links in with the points that we talked about earlier in terms of the C-suite buy-in.
Paula: And I think it’s an overall intention of integrity within a company.
Paula: So, you know, one of my favorite authors, for example, is Tim Ferriss.
Paula: I don’t know if you’ve come across him.
Paula: He’s the author of a very famous book called The Four-Hour Workweek.
Paula: And his model is genius.
Paula: But the reason I’m referring to him now is purely because his whole philosophy was around empowering staff.
Paula: His objective was not particularly focused on driving loyalty.
Paula: He was just focused on keeping himself out of being a problem in the problem-solving equation.
Paula: But if more people had that overall mindset of, let’s just get this sorted, you know, however it needs to be sorted.
Paula: I just think there’s a fundamental issue.
Paula: And again, I don’t know where the Middle East comes in terms of market maturity.
Paula: My senses were quite far behind because I don’t hear it being talked about.
Paula: But I do know there are CX professionals in this country who I need to go and talk to and see how they can help drive the industry forward.
Paula: A couple of other things then just wanted to touch on was maybe just to ask you, Michael, about some examples.
Paula: Again, you’ve developed the education side, you’ve done lots of consultancy, and I know you’ve got examples from lots of different countries around the world.
Paula: So who would you say is doing CX well?
Michael: Oh, yeah, I mean, if you go back in time, I remember being a kid going to visit Disney, and that experience is still one of the best in the world.
Michael: But when you were a child, oh my gosh, I dreamt about Disney before I landed there.
Michael: So there was this pre-experience and expectation, why did they deliver on it, etc.
Michael: I think when we talk about the six drivers, if you take something around trust, there are some companies out there who are doing a phenomenal job.
Michael: And of course, there are companies out there who are just completely missing what’s going on.
Michael: And I think, I remember recently, I was at a leadership team meeting in a large bank, and I was asked, how do we get our customers to trust us more?
Michael: And again, my response to that was, first of all, you got to trust us.
Michael: I walk into a bank in my market here today, and I have to go through a revolving door and look up at a camera before they let me in.
Michael: Then I walk up to a counter, if I’m lucky, if there’s a counter open, and there’s a pen there with a chain stuck to it.
Michael: You’ve got to trust us before we…
Michael: I tell you, there was a fantastic conference recently in the UK, and Anthony Thompson, who’s the founder of the Metro and actually the Atom banks, and he made an amazing statement.
Michael: I was like, God, this is so powerful around trust.
Michael: And he basically said that, look, consumers today, they talk about how are we going to regain trust within the banking system?
Michael: So all of the large companies out there are saying, we’ve got to rebuild our trust.
Michael: And what this gentleman was saying, look, we’re not.
Michael: It’s gone.
Michael: Our trust is gone.
Michael: And we can see that in studies all over the place.
Michael: Our job today as marketeers is basically, how do we manage the distrust that’s out there, that the customers have?
Michael: And the funny thing is that distrust is actually healthy for consumers.
Michael: So from a banking perspective, you can imagine their job now is to be much more transparent, much clearer, stop using jargon that customers don’t understand.
Michael: And I thought that was a really interesting way to look at that particular driver.
Michael: Just assume that we’re working in an environment of mistrust.
Michael: And it really does help in having conversations internally in the organization about how you stand in your customer’s shoes.
Michael: I just thought it was a really interesting way of kind of looking at that.
Michael: The second driver we talked about was all about that you know me.
Michael: So how do you treat me like an individual?
Michael: And I always reference companies like Netflix or Amazon.
Michael: You know, I read a lot of books, and I know you do too.
Michael: And sometimes I’m not the greatest for memory as to which author I read or the name and title of a book.
Michael: So when I’m going on holidays, I literally I’ll get on to an Amazon and I’ll call them and just say, they’ll tell me what books I should bring with me.
Michael: You know, they know me better than I know myself.
Michael: The same with Netflix.
Michael: I go home and you know, I just don’t know what movie I want to watch.
Michael: And generally, they’ll point me in the right direction.
Michael: So some of these larger companies are using data brilliantly, absolutely brilliantly.
Michael: But on a face-to-face basis, you know, imagine just arriving in to a store and somebody looks, you say, hey, Mike, how are things today?
Michael: How’s Mary Paddhi with the kids?
Michael: It is beautiful to be recognized.
Michael: You just feel that this company cares for me.
Michael: They appreciate my business.
Michael: So it’s back down to that real basic element from that perspective.
Michael: Do you make it easy?
Michael: Remember, you said, how do you make it easy for me?
Michael: And I think, again, let me talk about Prime Wardrobe from Amazon.
Michael: That project basically allows me to order up to 15 items sent to me at home.
Michael: And these are kind of apparel that I can try on in my own comfort.
Michael: And if I buy more than two items, I get a better discount.
Michael: If I buy four items, I get a bigger discount.
Michael: And if I don’t want certain items, I just put it back in the box and they come pick it up for free.
Michael: I mean, that’s what retailers are competing with.
Michael: So there are some companies out there that are absolutely doing incredible work.
Michael: Zappos, the food, sorry, the shoe retailer, they used to celebrate 24-hour home delivery.
Michael: Now they’re celebrating two-hour delivery.
Michael: We hear a lovely story about mum at the side of a football pitch with her kid, and realizing that his boots were left behind, and comes the rescue of our friend Zappos, arrive in with the shoes immediately.
Michael: Boom, they’re there.
Michael: So there’s lots of really interesting companies.
Michael: But my favorite story of all is the You Get Me.
Michael: It’s really difficult to understand the empathy side of things.
Michael: I love JetBlue.
Michael: You probably are familiar with them.
Michael: They’re the American kind of East Coast boutique airline.
Michael: And one of the programs they did, they tripped over on a beautiful insight, was that parents, particularly moms, the parents, and you know what this is like, when you walk on a flight with a child in your arms, and you watch everybody look at you and go, Oh, Mother of God, please keep moving.
Michael: Please, do not sit beside me.
Michael: And the passengers are smiling away, got a lovely child, et cetera.
Michael: And Jeopardy recognized that, and they came up with this beautiful program, which was a Mother’s Day promotion.
Michael: And they run it every year.
Michael: And basically, they announce before the flight, they say, Guys, we have four or five children on the flight today.
Michael: And if one of them cries, you’ll get 20% off your next flight.
Michael: If two of them cry, you get 50%.
Michael: And if four of them cry, you get a free round trip ticket.
Michael: Everybody stands up and starts throwing things at children.
Michael: And starts painting them and making horrible faces.
Michael: And what I love about that story, Paula, is can you imagine if JetBlue ran a TV campaign or a press campaign in the States that said, We are the most empathetic brand in this country?
Michael: Whereas what’s happening here is somebody comes into work and you say, How was your holiday?
Michael: They say, Oh, we had a great time.
Michael: But wait till I tell you what happened on my flight with JetBlue yesterday.
Michael: And you put that in perspective.
Michael: Now you have somebody selling on your behalf in the most brilliant way.
Michael: And I believe you.
Michael: I think you’re unbiased.
Michael: So I actually believe you.
Michael: And I might even fly JetBlue next time around.
Michael: But if JetBlue go to the trouble of investing in a killer advertising campaign, we’re less likely to believe them.
Michael: So that’s kind of a challenge we’re facing out there.
Michael: Then you get into that whole kind of issue about delivering on your promise.
Michael: And my fear is so many companies over promise and under deliver.
Michael: We see it time and time again.
Michael: You see it in the auto industries around the emissions when they all got found out.
Michael: You see it every single day in your home markets, in your telcos, who will promise you Earth, Moon and Stars.
Michael: If you sign up today, in six months time, we’re going to charge you everything you’ve ever had.
Michael: It goes on and on, and I think marketing has a role to play there.
Michael: I think marketing, particularly agencies that are working, and I was that agency.
Michael: We sat down there, and it was our job to create the most compelling and most energetic customer promises out there.
Michael: And the majority of cases, the staff of that company weren’t even aware of what we were promising.
Michael: We need to, it goes back to what you said earlier, it’s about getting staff to play a role in designing these promises, because they ultimately are the ones who are going to have to deliver it.
Michael: And marketing has never been good at that, and I would always say to the marketing departments, if you are developing a customer narrative or a story or a proposition, make sure staff have bought into that.
Michael: And in fact, make sure staff played a role in designing it.
Paula: Yes.
Michael: I think we’ve talked at length about you fixing things, but those companies out there that go to the trouble of having that heroic resolution in place, we love them.
Michael: And as we said, you will love them more than before or if no problem ever occurred.
Michael: If the problem didn’t occur, you probably missed that opportunity.
Paula: Yes, you get complacent.
Michael: It really is.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: And I’ll pick up then Michael on too, and then we’ll probably wrap up because I think we have covered a lot.
Paula: But two of the examples you mentioned made me smile, actually.
Paula: One, because today is obviously my banking day, but as well as my local banking challenge, I did make a bank transfer from my Irish bank to a web design agency in India that I’ve started using.
Paula: And they quite rightly said, okay, this could be an unusual transaction.
Paula: Let’s check there’s no fraud going on.
Paula: So they called me, which was great.
Paula: And again, the customer service from my Irish bank is exceptional.
Paula: But what amused me was the first thing they asked me to do was give them my name, address, and date of birth.
Paula: Now, I had no way of knowing that that call was from my bank and not from a fraudster.
Paula: And they spent so much time telling me how fraudsters behaved.
Paula: And I was like, actually, you know, in this experience, I’m more worried about you than about any other fraudster because you’re behaving in a way that I don’t trust.
Paula: So I think there’s a fundamental issue there.
Paula: If they ring me, it’s my phone number, my account.
Paula: You know, I just thought that that was quite bizarre that they that I then, to your point about, you know, the revolving doors and earning my trust, you know, they didn’t trust me to own and have my own phone to hand, which I thought was hilarious.
Michael: Isn’t a bit stuck in a rock and a hard place in one way.
Michael: We have absolute respect for our bank to make sure that we are not losing it in this area.
Michael: But, you know, it goes back to that whole issue of managing or meeting or exceeding expectations.
Michael: Even if they were to send you a text or an email to say, Paula, we are going to call you because something has happened.
Michael: At least they’re managing the expectations a little bit better.
Michael: The calling comes in and in some cases, they might even say, Paula, if you’re uncomfortable with this, please call me back on the number that’s on your phone.
Michael: So there’s simple ways of doing that.
Michael: That is about managing expectations a bit better.
Paula: And that’s a very good point, Michael, because in fact, it came through as a no-caller ID.
Paula: So also my level of trust on a blanked out number is usually a cause for concern.
Paula: Anyway, again, this today isn’t about me.
Paula: But the second one I wanted to pick up on that I loved that you spoke about, I am a big, I’ll say, shoeaholic.
Paula: So Zappos is very big on my radar.
Paula: And I remember hearing, and I’m going to say maybe 10 years ago, that Zappos had an incentive for newly trained staff to actually leave with a $2,000 bonus if they weren’t completely committed to their long-term career with Zappos and to delighting customers.
Paula: And again, that’s a very old policy, but it just shows you the depths that a CEO with integrity can go to to make sure that his team are fully committed to delighting his customers.
Paula: So I love that you’ve talked about Zappos in a CX context.
Michael: Zappos, well, for now, and it’s worth just saying that that policy is still in place.
Michael: And it’s actually after the initial training of staff, a fairly very robust training program.
Michael: And before you do actually start, they do offer you that.
Michael: So it is a teaser to make sure that they are getting the absolute right people.
Michael: And in fact, Zappos moved their whole fulfillment operation to Las Vegas, which is the home of hospitality in the world.
Michael: And they moved there because that’s where the skilled people that they were looking for could be found in droves.
Michael: So they would be a significant player in the CX world, but they also recognize how important the right type of staff are.
Michael: And it’s so true.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: Well, listen.
Paula: From my side, Michael, I think we’ve talked phenomenally about CX.
Paula: Again, I’ve learned loads from everything we’ve talked about.
Paula: I learned loads from doing your certificate.
Paula: So before we wrap up, were there any other points that you wanted to make in terms of CX or in terms of the CX Academy?
Paula: Of course, I’ll put a link to your website in the show notes.
Paula: But yeah, just wanted to give you an opportunity to add in anything else you wanted to.
Michael: Just to say that CX is a beautiful discipline.
Michael: It’s very impactful.
Michael: We are working very, very hard to keep it simple.
Michael: We were there when Digital landed, and the UX, the digital players, really made a bag of that because they made it one of the most complicated disciplines on the planet that people don’t understand.
Michael: So what I would say is, anybody who’s getting involved in CX, they’ll realize very quickly, wow, I’ve been doing this all my life.
Michael: Our framework is a great proof of that because when you go through each of those CX, you will realize you are actually a practitioner.
Michael: It’s just you need that confidence to understand.
Michael: Exactly.
Michael: So let’s keep it simple.
Michael: It is a beautiful discipline to work in, but let’s keep it simple.
Michael: I suppose, listen, thank you for the invite.
Michael: I think we are the CX Academy.
Michael: We’re the cxacademy.org.
Michael: If people are interested, please go check us out.
Michael: We would be delighted because the courses are made up of really good case studies, and it’s best practice the whole way through.
Michael: So they are enjoyable, and I think you’ve done it yourself, and I would hope too that you found it interesting.
Paula: Yeah, it’s interesting and it’s reassuring.
Paula: And as you said, Michael, it’s almost a validation of, I think, the personality types that go into loyalty in the first place.
Paula: We are all the type of people who want to delight customers.
Paula: And we’ve had one very clear way of doing it to date, and I think CX is a huge opportunity for anyone listening to this show to really take it to the next level.
Paula: So thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
Paula: As I said, I’ll make sure to link to you and to the CX Academy on the show notes.
Paula: And just wanted to say thank you so much for talking to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Michael: Thank you Paula, and congratulations on your young birthday during the week.
Michael: So well done you.
Paula: Thanks a million Michael.
Paula: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com, and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.
Paula: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform.
Paula: Find Let’s Talk Loyalty and subscribe.
Paula: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews, and thanks again for supporting the show.
Publisher’s Note:
This transcript was generated with the help of AI and podcast publishing tools such as Apple Podcast’s transcription service.
In the interests of efficiency and minimising our costs as a small business, it has not been checked by a human.
If you have any comments or concerns about the accuracy of this content, please do contact us for changes or corrections.
