#155: Emirates Skywards - Driving Success Through Personalisation, Partners & New Propositions

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.

PAULA: This episode is brought to you by Collinson, worldwide leaders in loyalty, creating and orchestrating loyalty initiatives and programs for some of the world’s biggest brands in travel, retail, and financial services.

PAULA: Doing it globally for over 30 years.

PAULA: Want to know more?

PAULA: Go to collinsongroup.com.

PAULA: Welcome to episode 155 of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: As October draws to a close, I’m back talking with Dr.

PAULA: Nejib Ben-Khedher, Divisional Senior Vice President of Emirates Airline with responsibility for Skywards, the loyalty program that I get the most opportunity to use on a personal basis.

PAULA: So, as you can imagine, it’s even more fascinating for me professionally.

PAULA: Nejib was a guest on the show once before, which was just two weeks before the world went into lockdown in early 2020 as the global pandemic took hold.

PAULA: So I was fascinated to get insights on how Skywards has used these last 18 months, how their membership and engagement levels were affected, and also, of course, talk about the new Paid Loyalty proposition that has been added to the program known as Skywards Plus.

PAULA: I hope you guys enjoy my second recording with Skywards from Emirates Airline here in Dubai.

PAULA: So welcome back to the show, Dr.

PAULA: Nejib Ben-Khedher.

PAULA: How are you doing today?

NEJIB: Good, good, Paula.

NEJIB: And congratulations for reaching now 150 podcasts.

PAULA: Oh, thank you, Nejib.

PAULA: Actually, I was looking back.

PAULA: Your show was episode number 25.

PAULA: So we literally recorded.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: And it was, would you believe, two weeks, literally before the world went into lockdown.

PAULA: So I don’t think we had any idea how dramatic the changes would be in the time.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: We have a lot to talk about.

PAULA: And also I will congratulate you because you are in my top 10.

PAULA: In fact, you are my seventh most listened to episode over the whole two years.

NEJIB: Okay.

NEJIB: We’ll try to beat that this time.

PAULA: I think we need to get into the top five at least, Nejib.

NEJIB: Sure.

NEJIB: Sure.

PAULA: So listen, get straight into it.

PAULA: Tell us your latest favorite loyalty statistic, Nejib.

NEJIB: Well, Paula, I think last time I talked about engagement in general.

NEJIB: I talked about, you know, flight active and program active numbers being some of the stats that we track.

NEJIB: Obviously, given the pandemic, truly partner active has been top of our mind.

NEJIB: It was very important for us to track whether members stayed engaged with the program.

NEJIB: So we continue to track that and watch it.

NEJIB: And no surprise, we’ve seen the number of partner active, solely partner active, meaning people who have not flown in us, but just had a transaction with our partner, either earn or expand, nearly double in terms of percentages.

NEJIB: So we went from about 17% that were solely partner active to about 33% that were solely partner active.

NEJIB: But I would like to bring up something that became our focus in the past year or so, you know, with the technology providing us with the possibility for us to track these numbers.

NEJIB: But more and more, we talk about digital engagement.

NEJIB: And in particular, we look at a number of stats around logged in members.

NEJIB: As you know, we do a lot of offers when people are coming on our website in path.

NEJIB: So it’s important for us for people to log in.

NEJIB: So we track how many people log in.

NEJIB: And then on the email side, we look at at open rate.

NEJIB: And lately, we have done a lot in terms of personalization and nearly doubled the open rate for the monthly digest we sent to our members.

NEJIB: But making it a bit more personalized, we have about 86 variants of emails that go to members based on their tier, the number of miles they have, their account, their engagement with our partners.

NEJIB: So that has helped to really double the number of open rates we have on these types of emails.

NEJIB: But the one that really translates to actual revenue numbers is the conversion rate.

NEJIB: So the look to book ratio that we have for members versus non-members.

NEJIB: And I think provides an idea to the rest of our constituents and stakeholders of how important loyalty is for Emirates.

NEJIB: And the conversion rate, just to give you an idea for Skywards members versus non-Skywards members is about four to five times higher.

NEJIB: And we track that again to again provide some idea around the level of engagement of our members when it comes to really the time of purchase.

NEJIB: So that’s the one stat you have for you and one that we really focused on.

NEJIB: And we’re doing a lot, as I mentioned, in path and also a lot to incentivize members to log in and then to be able to track their behavior when they’re on the website.

PAULA: Well, listen, Nejib, I mean, there’s so many things I want to pick up on and what you said.

PAULA: So I mean, I do remember in our last conversation, you had just come out of like a four year digital transformation.

PAULA: So it was almost like all of the pieces of the puzzle were in place.

PAULA: And now it’s just a case of testing and refining.

PAULA: And I think we’re both equally fans of testing.

PAULA: You’ve mentioned it so many times.

NEJIB: Absolutely.

PAULA: But the open rate, doubling the open rate on an email, that’s extremely difficult to do.

PAULA: Can you tell us any specifics or is that is that possible to share what kind of open rates now you’re actually achieving?

NEJIB: Well, yeah, we’re close to 30% now.

NEJIB: And I would say even that 30% that we’re reaching now, the latest version of emails we’re providing is more than 3X, actually not even 2X, 2X was the average since we’ve started this whole personalization.

NEJIB: So that’s that’s really a very good rate and shows a level of engagement.

NEJIB: As you mentioned, we do a lot of tests and learn, we see what works and what doesn’t work.

NEJIB: And obviously try to, you know, fine tune that as we go.

NEJIB: But I mentioned 86 variants of emails, probably at some point it would be even more as well.

NEJIB: You know, that, yeah, when you add languages and other parameters that you would be using.

PAULA: Yeah, so, yeah, well, yeah.

PAULA: I mean, when I think about the one email I send out to my subscribers, Nejib, every week, I don’t even get to get into variations, obviously, as just a solo person, but 86 variations and I’ll have to go and check my open rate.

PAULA: But thank you for sharing that, Nejib, because I think it’s wonderful to hear 2x and 3x.

PAULA: But sometimes it’s even more useful to have a number like a 30% open rate, you know?

PAULA: I think we can all aspire to match with what you’re achieving.

NEJIB: Yeah.

NEJIB: Thank you, Paula.

NEJIB: I just want to, I mean, on personalization in particular, because this is truly, you know, there’s a lot of debate around like, you know, all the investment we do around personalization, if it’s bearing some fruit.

NEJIB: I mean, this is a good example.

NEJIB: In a recent survey that I’ve seen, truly, you ask members and personalization is very important, you know, for members.

NEJIB: So it is important for us to just, you know, jump on the bandwagon.

NEJIB: It’s been part of the transformation that we’ve started, as you mentioned, four years ago.

NEJIB: And now we’re seeing or bearing fruit.

NEJIB: This work’s been done, obviously, in close partnership with our marketing department, leveraging some of the tools that they have put in place.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: No, if anything, Emirates has an extraordinary marketing team.

PAULA: So something I know you guys are extremely proud of and it’s amazing to hear that.

PAULA: So so phenomenal.

PAULA: So I guess the most obvious question, Ben-Nejib, really, I suppose, just because of the industry and the airline industry.

PAULA: We’re obviously now in October 2021.

PAULA: As I said, it was March 2020.

PAULA: So we almost have a before and after with the pandemic.

PAULA: And clearly, you know, like everywhere else, Dubai had a lockdown.

PAULA: But I’ve often said, you know, history, I think, will show that Dubai had the most extraordinary management with only six weeks of lockdown.

PAULA: Like we’ve been so lucky.

NEJIB: I can only agree.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

NEJIB: Yeah, yeah.

NEJIB: I can only agree.

NEJIB: And we’ve seen it in our numbers as well, Paula, here in terms of the UAE.

NEJIB: Yeah.

NEJIB: You know, one item I could provide is, you know, our relationship with Dubai Mall.

NEJIB: So I look at, I would say, you know, immediately after the lockdown, of course, all the health measures were put in place or precautionary measures, but people went back and physically actually been in the mall.

NEJIB: If I look at our engagement in the mall for our members, our numbers, you know, after the lockdown actually started even beating the pre-COVID numbers.

NEJIB: We had more transactions from members and more spanned than pre-COVID.

NEJIB: So it’s one of the partners that has performed extremely well.

NEJIB: And to see that retail in general, when people were not flying, all our activities on the retail side have actually worked very well as well for us.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: So would you say that’s probably the biggest change, Nejib?

PAULA: Obviously, because I know there’s a very clear positioning that Skywards is no longer just an airline loyalty program, very much the lifestyle program.

PAULA: Obviously, Fly Dubai is part of the family as well.

PAULA: So what other changes would you have seen coming through in the last 18 months?

NEJIB: So one statistics maybe to reflect that we were, as I say, lucky that we have engaged this whole transformation, as you mentioned, from an FFP into a lifestyle loyalty, is the fact that during this pandemic and last year, the earn on flights versus the earn on partners has really just swung overnight.

NEJIB: So basically, from a 70-30, it was earn on flights versus partner, it became 30-70.

NEJIB: So 70% of the miles were earned during the financial year 2021.

NEJIB: Yeah, we’re earned on partners.

NEJIB: But again, the preparation that we’ve done, not that we knew that something like this would hit us, but just all the work that we’ve done actually allowed us to have that level of engagement during a time where it was, where nearly we had through an operation shut down from an airline perspective.

NEJIB: Obviously, we rebuilt since then, but for a few months, it was very difficult to get people to fly, obviously, except for some emergency flights.

NEJIB: So yeah, so that took place.

NEJIB: And during the pandemic itself, we’ve accelerated the on-boarding of a number of partners.

NEJIB: So we continued on that.

NEJIB: We also had it, obviously, in our plans.

NEJIB: But for example, Skywards Miles Mall, which works on providing people with access to e-commerce sites and getting them to earn miles on e-commerce sites.

NEJIB: You know, we’ve accelerated that and implemented it during the COVID time.

NEJIB: We implemented UKUS in July 2020 and more recently, the UAE in April 21.

NEJIB: So I think the pandemic offered us truly a good business case for us to push for this, especially with the rise of e-commerce.

PAULA: For sure.

PAULA: It almost, you know, in some ways from an operational perspective, I guess it just gave you the breathing space to say, OK, what are the other priorities alongside the airline side to build the lifestyle side?

NEJIB: Yes, absolutely.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And I was just looking at the Skywards mall just before we came on, Nejib.

PAULA: So certainly from a UAE perspective, very happy to see UNAS and some other brilliant regional brands in there.

PAULA: So we should say just acknowledge our friends in Collinson.

PAULA: I know that they supported you with developing that whole proposition.

NEJIB: Yes, absolutely.

NEJIB: I think we wouldn’t have been able to onboard nearly 2000 partners across these three geographies if it were not working with a platform like Collinson and that allowed us really to scale very rapidly in these three markets.

NEJIB: By the way, these three markets totaled nine million members for us.

NEJIB: So it was very important for us to be able to reach them at a time where they were, again, not flying, at the time where e-commerce was on the rise and the Skywards Mall really proposition is around reaching out some of the big brands in the UK, like John Lewis, Selfridges, Harrods, or in the US like Macy’s and Bloomingdale’s and here, as you mentioned, for the UAE brands like UNAS, Level Shoes or West Elm or Sharif DJ.

NEJIB: So, yeah, absolutely.

NEJIB: I think it is a good way for us to engage our members and then to ride a little bit on this e-commerce wave.

PAULA: I think you’re totally right, Nejib.

PAULA: I think the affiliate model has been around, you know, as a cashback model, I think mainly for certainly 20 years that I’ve been working in travel.

PAULA: So I know you and I both go back a long way, Nejib, in our travel and airline careers.

PAULA: But yes, I think the cashback piece never had the loyalty angle, never got that sense of connection.

PAULA: I think that you can do with, you know, under the brand of Skywards Miles and Skywards Mall.

PAULA: I just think it’s a very clever strategy.

PAULA: And as you said, another huge piece of the puzzle through a very difficult time.

NEJIB: Exactly, exactly.

NEJIB: And this basically complements what we do on retail in general.

NEJIB: On the brick and mortar side, I just mentioned Dubai Mall.

NEJIB: You probably know also about what we do with the Bister village in about 11 global locations now.

NEJIB: And what we do with Skywards every day as well, where we engage with about 1500 brick and mortar retail here in the UAE.

NEJIB: So it’s again, pieces of the puzzle coming together in some way.

PAULA: Brilliant, brilliant.

PAULA: And I noticed a lovely thing that you have on your LinkedIn profile, Nejib, as well, which I’m guessing might be even pre-COVID, but you can help me understand this.

PAULA: But you literally explained that obviously you’re leading the loyalty program, but it was elevated instead of being a business unit previously.

PAULA: Certainly when I was with Emirates, it’s now an entire division within Emirates.

PAULA: So when did that actually repositioning happen, Nejib?

NEJIB: Just pre-COVID, as we were reaching three years in our transformation and putting together our ambition plan going forward, we have specific targets that we put on ourselves to reach by financial year 25-26.

NEJIB: By then, we would have gone through 10 years of transformation.

NEJIB: I think there was an awareness among management that this is a piece of the business that they wanted to invest in.

NEJIB: Obviously, there is growth in what we are doing, and then the impact of loyalty in general.

NEJIB: I think we tried to convince everybody that everything we’re doing around partnerships is actually bringing back value to the airline in some way or fashion because we’re bringing in maybe a new audience.

NEJIB: You’ve seen, for example, the launch that we’ve done in the US with BILT, which is a renters program in the US.

NEJIB: This whole idea was there to address the millennial segment.

NEJIB: I think there is an awareness that the program can do even more, moving from an FFP to a lifestyle.

NEJIB: Therefore, I think it was a token of appreciation, in particular allowing us a bit more empowerment in terms of making the strategy, implement the strategy.

PAULA: I think it’s a great message for loyalty professionals that listen to this show, Nejib, because we’ve talked about…

PAULA: There is hope.

PAULA: It’s like if Nejib has done it, everybody can do it.

PAULA: For sure.

PAULA: I think it’s important, Nejib, and I know we talked about this the last time that we were together, because I felt in my own time running programs operationally, that there was often a lot of resistance from maybe finance people in terms of exactly why are we investing in this asset?

PAULA: Is it really giving us the returns?

PAULA: So clearly, an airline like Emirates is not going to elevate their entire loyalty program to a business division unless those profits are coming through.

PAULA: So I just love to hear stories like that.

PAULA: It’s very important for the industry.

NEJIB: I want to stress the fact that obviously, this is a good margin business.

NEJIB: There’s profit associated with everything we’re doing in terms of selling miles.

NEJIB: That obviously is one of the KPIs we follow, and it’s a way for us to reinvest in the program as well.

NEJIB: But ultimately, truly, the main KPI is bringing more people to fly with Emirates.

PAULA: Of course.

NEJIB: And we’re doing that.

NEJIB: And when I mentioned earlier conversion to be a very important KPI, conversion is about getting people to come to the website who are engaged with the program and then to getting them to book ultimately and using incentives when they are on the website and personalized incentives to get them to book.

NEJIB: And ultimately, that type of KPI federates everybody.

NEJIB: So it’s not something that is purely a Skywards piece that I think everybody understands within the commercial organization, within finance, that if we do something around that and we prove the value of loyalty, then the business case is done.

NEJIB: And then I think you have support from finance, you have support from marketing, you have support from legal.

NEJIB: We can be a nightmare for a lot of our stakeholders because we push a lot.

NEJIB: I have a thought for our legal department, in particular with the number of partnerships we’re doing and every one of them, they have to go and work with us to make these things happen.

NEJIB: Clearly, one thing we’ve done, Paula, is that really we put a PMO function in place that is very…

NEJIB: help us prioritize through the initiatives.

NEJIB: We started the year, believe it or not, with about 180 initiatives.

NEJIB: We have really narrowed that down to about, let’s say, 20, I think 17, we ended up with.

NEJIB: And that whole work required us a certain discipline.

NEJIB: So there’s no lack of ideas, but we understand the bandwidth that we have to work with, and it’s very important for us to manage things properly.

PAULA: Love it.

PAULA: OK, so your advice sounds like do less and do it obviously then you’ve got more capacity for excellence, I guess, when you’re focused on fewer things.

NEJIB: Exactly.

NEJIB: And on this as well, I think a lot of us like the new stuff.

NEJIB: Yes, totally.

NEJIB: But the reality is, yeah, that’s very exciting.

NEJIB: And I know for our team, it’s very motivating.

NEJIB: But I remind everybody and my team, I think, agree with me on this.

NEJIB: So we need to sweat the existing assets as well.

NEJIB: So if we have a relationship that’s been established with our partners, it’s important to go and do the best in terms of driving more with these partners.

NEJIB: So you have to find the right balance between the new and then the existing and trying to grow the existing as well.

PAULA: That’s true.

PAULA: And one we I don’t think mentioned even last time, Nejib, but I am a huge fan of.

PAULA: So we’ve already talked about Dubai Mall and I was there this morning.

PAULA: So again, delighted with that one.

PAULA: Of course.

NEJIB: Don’t forget to scan your receipts, though.

PAULA: Of course, all done, all done.

PAULA: But the other one I love that you did, and I think it’s a couple of years old as well, Nejib, but it’s the Dubai Duty Free Partnership.

PAULA: So is that one?

PAULA: I’m sure that’s growing phenomenally as well for you.

NEJIB: Yeah, it worked well again during the pandemic.

NEJIB: Obviously not a lot of activity at the airport, but now things are booming again.

NEJIB: So we will see more engagement there.

NEJIB: But if I look at pre-COVID levels, Dubai Duty Free was really a very good redemption channel.

NEJIB: It works well with our lifestyle, retail, but it’s also tied back to travel.

NEJIB: And then what we’ve seen there is very interesting, is that, for example, our India-based members use a lot Dubai Duty Free for redemption.

NEJIB: Because the flights are pretty full out of India, and they’re going to be even more now that we don’t have the frequency that we used to, at least for now, as we’re ramping up.

NEJIB: This is a way for them to, again, to use their miles.

NEJIB: And we’ve seen a big engagement with Dubai Duty Free from our India base.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: It’s good to know.

PAULA: Great, great.

PAULA: Talk to me a bit just then about overall numbers, Nejib.

PAULA: Have you managed to grow the overall membership of Skywards, given, as we said, there’s been such limitations in terms of the ability to fly?

NEJIB: Yeah.

NEJIB: Now, of course, not at the same pace we used to grow.

NEJIB: We used to grow at around 15, 16% a year since we started the transformation.

NEJIB: And we have now reached nearly 28 million members.

NEJIB: Yeah.

NEJIB: And so that’s a lower growth from before.

NEJIB: I think the last time we talked, we had about 27 million.

NEJIB: So we added about a million during the pandemic.

NEJIB: Now, very interesting is during the pandemic, because a lot of people who were flying, were flying also with us for the first time, because again, we were one of the few airlines that were flying on certain flows.

NEJIB: That offered us really an opportunity for us to acquire new members.

NEJIB: And we did so.

NEJIB: We made it much easier now, a few QR codes at the airports, check-in for anybody to be able to just scan the QR code and then be able in a couple of, you know, a few steps to enroll.

NEJIB: So we’re doing a lot at the airport at touch points and through partners as well.

NEJIB: So that’s been a good acquisition play for us.

PAULA: Okay, great, great.

PAULA: And I guess one of the biggest things that you’ve done as well in recent months, I believe it’s about two months old now, but tell us about Skywards Plus.

PAULA: You launched a paid loyalty program.

NEJIB: Yeah, I mean, I think the jury is out to call it or not a paid loyalty program because I think of it as something that really is an add on to our existing loyalty program with the different tiers that we have based on your travel activity, obviously, and the tier miles that you’re acquiring.

NEJIB: But when we thought about the different tiers and see, can we overlay the existing program with something else that could bring value to our members?

NEJIB: So for your blue members, for example, with the basic Skywards Plus offering, we’re allowing them to have certain benefits or privileges like lounge access or extra baggage allowance.

NEJIB: So that is much more catered to them on top of the bonus miles that they would receive and then the discounted upgrade that they would get.

NEJIB: And then for the higher tier members who are truly wanting to retain their tier status, we’re offering more of the premium package that allows you to have 20% more tier miles on every flight you fly and therefore making it easier for you to retain your tier.

NEJIB: So it’s very interesting, but 50% of the people who have subscribed are actually silver and above.

NEJIB: And they’re seeing value on top of the benefits that they’re receiving today by subscribing to Skywards Plus.

NEJIB: Now, again, we’re ramping up as an airline, and hopefully we’ll see much more traction around this program.

NEJIB: Yeah, I mean, there is, I think there’s literature around people being much more engaged when they’re subscribing to a program and paying for it.

NEJIB: We are somewhat in between where we’ll just say, you know, we keep the structure that we have today.

NEJIB: We’re not selling the tiers per se, but we’re overlaying this with additional benefits that people can take.

NEJIB: I can tell you from a benefit perspective, the one piece that we’ve seen has the biggest consumption is the discounted upgrades that continues to be in general upgrades continue to be the most attractive way for people to redeem their miles.

NEJIB: And then for us, providing the 20% discount has made it even more attractive.

NEJIB: And we see again that silver and above members see value in both the discounted upgrades and on tier miles bonuses that they’re receiving.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And I know.

PAULA: So that’s a benefit that I think you get share once a year, if I’m correct with the program.

PAULA: So I love the idea, for example, of doing that when you’re taking maybe the big, say, family holiday.

PAULA: That’s the thing when you get the most impact.

PAULA: So rather than using it, maybe just for my individual flight, let’s do it when there’s four people going.

PAULA: So we each get our 20 percent.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Great.

NEJIB: Absolutely.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And you’re right.

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: Nejib, first of all, the jury’s out on, you know, is there such a thing as a paid loyalty program and what qualifies and how do we distinguish between a business model, a loyalty program?

PAULA: And obviously we’re going to keep the core loyalty programs, but adding in these new propositions, I think, is very important.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: But I will quote actually the statistic, which I know we talked about all fair ourselves, which I’ll make sure to link to in the show notes for people, but there’s just so much appetite around paid loyalty in general.

PAULA: I was really impressed.

PAULA: I came across one statistic from McKinsey, which I’m sure everybody knows the consulting firm, and they quoted that.

PAULA: And this is 2020 figures, in fact, that, you know, essentially members of paid loyalty programs are 60% more likely to spend on the brand after paying to subscribe, whereas a free loyalty program only increases the likelihood of increased spend by 30%.

PAULA: It’s absolutely extraordinary.

NEJIB: Interesting.

NEJIB: Yeah.

PAULA: Yeah.

NEJIB: Yeah.

NEJIB: Yeah.

NEJIB: Much more engaged people, I think, when they pay for it.

NEJIB: I mean, obviously for us also, the people are actually subscribing.

NEJIB: Most of the benefits, if not all of them, are related to flying.

NEJIB: And therefore, it’s a good indication that people are going back and flying.

NEJIB: And so if people are subscribing, it means that there is a positive sign, I think.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Well, again, definitely.

PAULA: When the next time you’re on the show, Nejib, I’ll definitely be making sure to reference it again, because I know you’re in soft launch phase still, I think, very much at the moment.

NEJIB: Exactly.

NEJIB: And we’re fine-tuning, as you mentioned earlier, test and learn is important for us.

NEJIB: So we’re learning from this.

NEJIB: We did a first one, I think it was a year and a half ago when we started this.

NEJIB: We tried it with only one proposal.

NEJIB: This time we went with three packages based on all the information we received or the insight we gained from that testing phase.

NEJIB: Now we’re going to go through this and also learn from it and see how to fine-tune it, add maybe more benefits to members so that over time and then see how it works going forward.

NEJIB: But so far, so good.

NEJIB: And then we’re seeing good traction.

PAULA: Great, great.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And I’m sure there’s market-specific pricing as well that has to be considered.

NEJIB: Eventually, eventually as well.

PAULA: We will.

NEJIB: Absolutely, absolutely.

PAULA: And not everyone can afford in every country the same.

PAULA: So exactly the same way airfares vary by point of origin.

PAULA: So yeah, super, super complicated.

NEJIB: We have that level of sophistications.

NEJIB: Absolutely.

PAULA: Great, great.

PAULA: Tell us also then, I love, I think I said to you, the points.com partnership.

PAULA: I found myself doing the mathematics and working out exactly when there was a fabulous offer came into me.

PAULA: With a 40% discount to buy more Skywards miles.

PAULA: So I was very excited.

PAULA: I did do a lot of calculations to work it out.

PAULA: But tell us, how’s that going for you?

NEJIB: Extremely well.

NEJIB: And once again, you know, we made the decision when we started this whole transformation four years ago that we will find the right partners to work with, to scale the program.

NEJIB: So we don’t have to invent everything.

NEJIB: If something is being done somewhere, we should just learn from it and work with the best out there to just go and do it.

NEJIB: I think you mentioned Collinson for the Skywards Miles Mall.

NEJIB: For points and the work we’re doing with them, you know, if I compare where we were from this whole miles retailing piece before we engaged with them and now, as in pre-COVID, we multiplied by three the number of miles that were retailed as in either sold or transferred or, you know, one of the products that we have with points.com.

NEJIB: As a matter of fact, during the pandemic, if I compare during the pandemic to five years ago when we didn’t have this relationship or even four years ago when we didn’t have the relationship with points, it was 60% higher than when we didn’t have this relationship.

NEJIB: So I can only say that this whole work with points has helped us a lot.

NEJIB: In particular, I think what we found very interesting, we work together and with our marketing department in terms of putting some campaigns.

NEJIB: You’ve seen them yourself.

NEJIB: You referred to them, Paula.

NEJIB: These are targeted campaigns that we do on a monthly basis.

NEJIB: You’ve seen, I’m sure, multiple types of campaigns.

NEJIB: We try to personalize them also.

NEJIB: And then we’re using different variants.

NEJIB: And we’re again, points our marketing department and ourselves are learning from these interactions and obviously seeing where the value is.

NEJIB: But I can say that the feedback from the members is excellent.

NEJIB: It shows in the numbers, as I mentioned, even during pandemic, we did 60 percent higher than when we had a more of a stale proposition before in 2014.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And I think part of the genius around that whole proposition, as you alluded to, is the level of control, being able to turn it on, turn it off and have that level of flexibility.

PAULA: So it adds urgency as well, I think, for somebody like me, who’s a member.

NEJIB: And I think also the work that we would be doing in PATH as well, when people are looking for upgrades, et cetera, and they don’t have the number of miles required, this is the best time to put an offer in front of them to convert them as we go.

NEJIB: And we get smarter as we go and trying to understand a bit more the intent and be able to put the right offers in front of the right members.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: I love that in PATH piece.

PAULA: And I know anybody who’s in the world of e-commerce, which obviously you are, putting it literally like the right solution when the pain is literally just becoming visible to the person at that point is very clever stuff.

PAULA: And very difficult technically in my experience.

PAULA: Yeah.

NEJIB: It is difficult technically now.

NEJIB: I brought that concept with me when I don’t know if you know, but I’ve managed.

NEJIB: I managed Travelocity, the online travel agency a few years back, about 10 years ago.

NEJIB: And we were doing a lot of A-B testing.

NEJIB: We were doing a lot in terms of conversion and in particular, a lot of work on the in-PATH piece as well.

NEJIB: It’s very, very difficult with artificial intelligence today.

NEJIB: And this is really where our focus is in the next year or so is to try to go beyond just doing, you know, which is discrete offers to be to make it to make it a bit more dynamic and to understand truly the intent of the member who’s visiting and to be able to understand again his background, her background, and then be able to put the right offer in front of them.

NEJIB: So, you know, when you visit, what type of, you know, the flight you’re looking for, cabin, et cetera, based also on your profile, will be able to offer you something that’s that’s very, very targeted to you.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Yeah.

NEJIB: No.

PAULA: And I’ve noticed it, obviously, like any time I go, you know, so regularly and, you know, check my various destinations that I aspire to go to just to get a sense on flights and timings and pricing and all of that kind of research, you know, obviously, immediately the offer comes through with a reminder, you know, to make sure, you know, want to travel to Dublin.

NEJIB: Yeah.

NEJIB: There’s a lot of work around abandoned cars that we’re doing as well.

NEJIB: Both on the on the miles retaining piece, but also on the flights piece as well to be able to target back numbers as well.

NEJIB: Yeah.

PAULA: Great.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: It’s almost like as loyalty managers now, we do need to be e-commerce experts as well.

PAULA: Very much to understand this.

NEJIB: Yeah.

PAULA: You know, the abandoned shopping carts, I remember from my time years ago and e-bookers.

PAULA: You know what it is?

PAULA: It’s a significant issue online.

NEJIB: Absolutely.

PAULA: The other piece that I know is great to have back, Nejib.

PAULA: But again, a global audience might be as familiar with it, but the whole Skywards exclusives.

PAULA: So leveraging all of the Emirates sponsorship assets, particularly now again, when people I think are excited to get back into the real world, to get to conferences and get to sporting events.

PAULA: So tell us all about the Skywards exclusive proposition.

PAULA: I love it.

NEJIB: Yeah, it is again one.

NEJIB: I mean, for us, it’s a way also to gamify the engagement with our members, especially the auction part or the bidding part.

NEJIB: I think where we found it was something that the members liked.

NEJIB: This is in pre-COVID, we had people bidding 300,000 miles for Formula One.

NEJIB: And 300,000 miles, that’s 20 round trips to London.

NEJIB: So it’s good to see that level of engagement.

NEJIB: And I know people missed all these events, obviously, for a good reason.

NEJIB: Now we’re back, as you know, here in Dubai, we’re hosting the ICC Men’s T20 World Cup.

NEJIB: We will have some offerings there.

NEJIB: And this is very, obviously, starts, I think, from 17th of October until 14th of November.

NEJIB: Yeah, and starting at 3000 miles, you can actually buy a ticket to watch round one of the cricket.

NEJIB: But Formula One is coming back as well.

NEJIB: Football with Arsenal, with Olympique Lyonnais, with Real Madrid, with AC Milan.

NEJIB: So we’re back in full swing there in terms of offering for our members.

NEJIB: And as I mentioned, it’s something that’s…

NEJIB: There are some general admission tickets, and then we have hospitality tickets that usually are put for an auction.

NEJIB: And we’ve got members doing that.

NEJIB: It’s very engaging, I think, as an experience.

NEJIB: If you try it, Paula, you’ll see what I’m talking about.

PAULA: Well, I was going to say, I’ve obviously missed the auction piece.

PAULA: And maybe just because there will be no events to go to.

PAULA: But there’s plenty coming up, as you mentioned.

PAULA: My personal favorite is the Emirates Airline Rugby Sevens Tournament.

NEJIB: Yes, it’s coming.

NEJIB: You will see that as well.

NEJIB: And of course, we have tennis as well now coming.

NEJIB: And baseball in the US.

NEJIB: You know all the sports that we sponsor.

NEJIB: So we’ll be there on all of them.

NEJIB: Rugby being one of them, obviously.

PAULA: Brilliant.

PAULA: Well, I suppose you already mentioned a little about future trends, Nejib, with the artificial intelligence and the increasing interest in personalization and making sure that that, I suppose, relevance piece continues to stay front and center.

PAULA: Anything else that you’re focused on, I suppose, from a Skywards perspective that might be coming up in the next year or two or any other future trends that you think we as loyalty professionals should be thinking about?

NEJIB: I mean, a couple of things, maybe, Paula, that we have started even pre-COVID that we’re trying to fine-tune and improve on as well.

NEJIB: You know, Skywards, my family, we launched it in 2018.

NEJIB: Now we’re rich, about a million members on that.

NEJIB: And then in the latest enhancement, we allow the family to pull miles, even that not only earned on flights, but also earned on partners as well.

NEJIB: This is a good way for us to, you know, we cater a lot to family as Emirates.

NEJIB: So it’s important for us to have an offering like that.

NEJIB: We’re also looking at the Sky Surfer Program, which is our kids program or Young Flyer program to try to see how we can enhance that as well.

NEJIB: There’s a good segment there that we are working on.

NEJIB: We’re trying as well.

NEJIB: I think you’ve seen us also increase the number of conversion partners that we have across.

NEJIB: So we’re working on that globally.

NEJIB: We’re also using some platforms like Asanda and Points to make that happen.

NEJIB: We’ll be launching a couple actually in the next few days that you’ll hear about.

NEJIB: So in general, we continue with this high pace of bringing partners on board, of catering to different segments, of understanding our members a bit more, doing more on personalization, using technology a bit more as well, and doing more on the digital front.

NEJIB: But I think it’s truly right now, it’s back to the basics.

NEJIB: We have to help the airlines recover in any way we can.

NEJIB: And I think that’s our biggest focus is to see how we can make that happen and how we can reward the members and keep that loyalty that we have earned throughout the years and not let it go, you know, and do the right thing for our members again and for our anchor airline.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah, you’re absolutely right, Nejib.

PAULA: I think what we’ve all learned through these last very difficult months, especially for you guys, is how powerful the loyalty proposition is and the memberships and the relationships actually more importantly.

PAULA: So, you know, it drives the stickiness, it drives the revenue.

PAULA: And yes, I think your first role is to support the airline.

PAULA: So they’re very lucky to have you.

PAULA: So yeah, great work.

PAULA: Not at all.

PAULA: Anything else you wanted to mention, Nejib, before we wrap up?

NEJIB: No, I think that’s it.

NEJIB: I hope we’ll get to talk to you again down the road, maybe with more stuff happening in the year.

NEJIB: So stay tuned.

PAULA: Totally.

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: No, it’s always super exciting, Nejib.

PAULA: And there’s amazing work you’re doing.

PAULA: So thank you for the opportunity to pick your brains, to learn from what’s going on, and definitely look forward to even the next one.

PAULA: So, Nejib Ben-Khedher.

PAULA: Thank you so much.

PAULA: Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights, and research.

PAULA: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.

PAULA: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.

PAULA: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform.

PAULA: Find Let’s Talk Loyalty and subscribe.

PAULA: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews.

PAULA: And thanks again for supporting the show.