Experience with programs: The Star Entertainment Group, David Jones, NewsCorp, Qantas, Global Red, Brierley & Partners, Coca Cola (#656)

Paula: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is hosted by Carly Neubauer, managing director of Elevate Loyalty, an Australian-based company specializing in loyalty and incentive services.

Paula: Carly is also the managing director of One Tap Group, a UK-based company providing loyalty payment services.

Paula: Enjoy.

Carly: Hi, I’m Carly Neubauer, managing director of Elevate Loyalty and One Tap Group.

Carly: Today I’m speaking with Han Bailey, otherwise known as Loyalty Royalty, with a wealth of experience in the industry.

Carly: Having worked with some of the biggest brands and loyalty programs in Australia and the US, Han now consults to a range of businesses and mentors upcoming loyalty talent.

Carly: With a commercial lens on loyalty and a true understanding of developing a program from the ground up, please enjoy today’s conversation with Han as we hear all about her journey from starting in loyalty by accident to building and delivering some of the biggest programs we all know and love.

Carly: Hi, Han, and welcome.

Carly: Great to have you on the show today.

Han: Well, thank you for having me.

Han: I’m really excited about our chat.

Carly: So for this series, we have two really important questions at the start that we love to ask.

Carly: First question for you today is, please tell us your favourite business book.

Han: Well, I’ll tell you my favourite business slash life book.

Han: And I’ve just recently completed a book by Edith Edgard called The Gift.

Han: Now, this book is phenomenal.

Han: I don’t know if you know about her and her background, but she was a ballerina and she was put into concentration camp during the Nazi invasion.

Han: And what was really compelling about this book, and I couldn’t keep put it down because I read it in like a week, couldn’t put it down because of her way of controlling her mind.

Han: Now, they could take everything away from her, but what they couldn’t take away was her mind and her ability to see the world in a positive, different light.

Han: And I think that we can take a lot from this book because I just think about my life and what I’ve been through, whether it’s corporate or my personal life, and putting yourself in someone else’s shoes and seeing them, not as the enemy, but as someone that needs help and understanding and empathizing with them is amazing.

Han: I don’t know if you’ve had a chance to read the book, but if you don’t, I recommend you go and grab it because it’s a phenomenal book.

Han: She went back to school at the age of 40, and is still working and she’s 97.

Han: Like that is absolutely amazing, isn’t it?

Carly: The courage to withstand that and then, as you said, show empathy is just amazing, really.

Han: Yeah.

Carly: Wow.

Carly: Fantastic.

Carly: Thank you for sharing that.

Carly: I did, since we first met, read it after your recommendation and also agree highly, highly recommend.

Carly: It’s phenomenal what she, what she has done and achieved.

Carly: Absolutely.

Carly: Thank you for sharing that one.

Carly: And also need to ask you, obviously a very popular question on this show, which is your favorite loyalty program?

Han: Well, can I say I have two?

Han: The first one, just because sheer scale and earn and burn abilities, but also the way that they have the perks is Qantas Frequent Flyer.

Han: I think I earn a lot of my points through credit card.

Han: Like a lot of people in Australia, I don’t fly enough to earn the status rewards.

Han: But what I love about it is that it’s so simple.

Han: It’s really easy to earn.

Han: But what lets it down, I think, and with the changes that are coming up in August, will be the conversion of those points and also the seat availability.

Han: So that’s going to be a huge friction point.

Han: It’d be interesting to see what happens when the changes take effect.

Han: I will book my round-the-world trip one day.

Han: I’ve got about 600,000 points.

Han: I don’t think that’s enough.

Carly: Awesome work, though.

Carly: Good job.

Han: And then I think my second program, just for its simplicity, is the EVT program.

Han: And I say at the QT quite a lot.

Han: And what I love about it is I’m a gold member.

Han: It’s really simple.

Han: They give me a welcome drink when I check in.

Han: And they give me early and late check out.

Han: So that’s all you really need for a hotel loyalty program.

Han: I think where they fail, and I’ve experienced this when I checked in in Canberra, was that the team members didn’t know much about the benefits.

Han: So that could let itself down if it’s not fully entrenched within the organization and the execution of it isn’t as seamless as you’d like it to be.

Carly: You’ve probably touched on a challenge that so many loyalty professionals face is the role at and how to train large teams and staff across different venues.

Carly: If that’s the style of program it is as well.

Carly: And this is why I love talking to you because you have such a good critical analysis of loyalty as well and good insights even though it is still your favorite.

Han: I love it.

Han: Look, I’ve been designing loyalty programs for about 18 years and every time I design a program, the biggest challenge is how do you embed this program within an organization and how do you make your team members love it?

Han: Because if they love it, customers will love it.

Han: If they understand the benefits, your customers will understand the benefits.

Han: If they are a part of the program, if they’re members of the program, they’ll be able to articulate how you earn, how you burn and why you should join this loyalty program.

Han: So I think a lot of companies do spend a lot of time training their team members, but it’s the ongoing engagement.

Han: And if you work in retail, retail staff turn over quite often.

Han: So it’s how you keep new team members aware and engaged and trained in the program.

Han: But then also how do you ensure that your existing team members are still excited about the program since it was launched to now?

Han: It’s really interesting, like putting a lot of time and effort into training is so crucial into the flawless execution of a program.

Carly: Absolutely, no doubt.

Carly: Do you have any key tips or hints on that one actually?

Carly: Have you had any good experience around how you would recommend?

Han: Yeah, absolutely.

Han: Make it fun.

Han: I think everyone knows that incentives are great.

Han: So Money Talks are a couple of the programs that I’ve worked on in the past.

Han: They’ve incentivized their team members for signing up, loyalty team members.

Han: Now, that’s got a benefit, but it’s also prone to fraudulent use as well.

Han: So you’ve just got to monitor it through reporting.

Han: You know, quizzes, back-of-house quizzes, reminders, as well as nominating the staff with the most signups or shouting out and sharing stories of star success as well, which is really important.

Carly: Yeah, so true.

Carly: And look, you just mentioned as well your 18 years in loyalty and you’ve got some amazing experience in the space.

Carly: Can you tell us a little bit, how did you get into loyalty?

Carly: How did it start out for you?

Han: That’s funny.

Han: It was actually by accident.

Han: I was living in the States and I applied for a business development role at a company called Brierley & Partners.

Han: Now, I don’t know if you know about them, but they’re one of the largest loyalty agencies in the States.

Han: Started out by Hal Brierley.

Han: They were one of the original loyalty agencies that designed, managed and executed Hilton Honors, American Airlines, the Westfields program, also the American Outfitters program as well as Hertz.

Han: When I applied for the role, I didn’t think I would actually get it.

Han: Twenty minutes into the interview, the CEO stopped me and said, oh, can you just hang on here and wait?

Han: I need to just leave the room.

Han: So I thought he was just bored of my answers.

Han: He came back after five minutes.

Han: He just walked out after 20 minutes.

Han: I said, this hasn’t happened to me in the past.

Han: He came back after five minutes and said, I would like to offer you the role with a sign-on bonus as well as visa sponsorship.

Han: But I said, right, right, that’s amazing.

Han: Didn’t know anything about loyalty.

Han: Didn’t know what they actually sold.

Han: But what I quickly came to realize is that they were one of the best agencies in America and I did a lot of learning about loyalty programs, how to design a program from scratch, but how to manage and execute a program as well.

Han: What was really interesting was that dealing with clients, and I was out of my depth initially.

Han: Didn’t know the right questions to ask because I didn’t know what a loyalty program was in 2007.

Han: It was all about learning on the job and asking questions with my teammates.

Han: I was very fortunate to have fantastic, smart teammates who would like to see me succeed.

Han: They helped me ask all the right questions.

Han: Getting to the cross of why people do loyalty programs, and why companies would invest in a program was really interesting.

Han: So I spent about nearly three years at Brierley & Partners, and decided to come back to Australia in 2010.

Han: When I came back, the industry was in such early stages of loyalty.

Han: You still have your punch cards at the cafe.

Han: Yes.

Han: The cardboard punch cards.

Han: You would have a couple of loyalty programs, but a lot of the specialty retailers, they didn’t really have a loyalty program internally.

Han: So working for a company called Visible Results, we had a program, but also a loyalty platform that integrated the POS systems with thermal cards as well as plastic cards.

Han: So in 2010, I was managing accounts like Browse and Things, Dusk, Terry White Chemists as well as Chemarts.

Han: That was really interesting because they were really at the beginning of loyalty, starting to understand how loyalty would drive customer behavior, and starting to understand data-driven marketing as well.

Han: So I really worked with the clients to drive that cultural transformation within the organization, but then also leveraging technology to improve how we market and communicate to their customers.

Han: So they were one of the first to integrate their loyalty programs with POS, but also with Portrait, which was a marketing automation platform back then.

Han: I don’t think that they’re around anymore.

Carly: That’s huge.

Carly: And the fact that you can even start to talk about some of the earlier days in integrating POS, I mean, this is a challenge that so many programs are facing in Australia at the moment around multiple POS systems in retail environments, which to use, how to use, how to roll out.

Carly: So can you talk to us a little bit about those challenges as well?

Han: Oh gosh, yes.

Han: So with every client that I’ve worked for, whether it’s an internal role or an agency role, if you look under the bonnet, their IT systems are a mess.

Han: It’s always bad.

Han: You put a bad date on everything.

Han: You would have discussions with your project manager around the ideal scenario of technology integration, how you want the program to be in real time, how you would like to send a message to the POS or their receipts, or trigger it back to the loyalty management system.

Han: To be able to do that, you really would have to have an amazing systems architecture where everything would fall into place, so everything would be seamlessly integrated.

Han: That’s not the way it is in retail or any kind of.

Carly: Not so simple.

Han: As you know, there’s always quick fixes, and then what was meant to be a quick fix for a year ends up being a legacy system for 15 years.

Han: You deal with a lot of IT challenges, and it’s very costly as well.

Han: When you do start to integrate POS with your marketing automation system, with your loyalty management system, with your mobile app, as well as the website, there is an understanding that you probably won’t get it right the first time, but you will over time build on enhancements.

Han: And that’s how I’ve always worked at any organization that I’ve worked for.

Han: Because if you do launch and you launch with a mindset that you want to get the technology perfect, you’ll never launch at all.

Carly: Yes, this is true.

Han: So you launch with a near perfect solution, whether it’s real time or new real time, and then you build on it gradually.

Han: Once you launch, after three months, you test the customer sentiment to see how they’re engaging in participating in the program, and then you drive those enhancements based on that research.

Carly: Gosh, so it can start out pretty bleak by the sounds of it, and then we can just iterate, is that where we’re going?

Han: Absolutely, I think the most important thing is launching with our loyalty management system.

Han: So whether you want to be able to earn a burn in real time, or whether it’s a batch process, it’s always what loyalty management system will you launch with that’s going to allow you to calculate those points based on spend.

Han: Then it’s how do you integrate that behavioral system with your marketing automation platform to be able to communicate with them from day one.

Carly: Fantastic.

Carly: Now, I do want to ask you, because we’ve had some really great chats in the past, tell us a couple of memorable career moments from you as well, because I know these will be exciting.

Han: Yeah, I’ve got several, actually.

Han: I think one memorable scenario was when I just landed in LA.

Han: I moved from the UK to LA for personal reasons, and I was out with my partner at that time.

Han: And this man and his dog, they were walking past me, so I stopped him and I said, Oh, can I pet your dog?

Han: What a beautiful dog.

Han: What’s his name?

Han: So we started talking and he was like, Hang on, where are you from?

Han: And I get that all the time in America, because an Asian with an Aussie accent is very unusual at that time.

Han: So I said to him, I don’t really need a job.

Han: He goes to me, okay, do you want to work in TV?

Han: And I said, what do you mean?

Han: He goes, do you want to be a researcher?

Han: I said, Oh, yeah, sure.

Han: And I looked at my partner at that time and I said, is he legit?

Han: He gave me his car and he said for me to call him.

Han: So I did and I got hired on the spot.

Han: And it was working as a researcher for the Secret Life of Food.

Han: So we would research the Secret Life of Hot Dogs.

Han: So how did the hot dog start in America and why it was so popular?

Han: The Secret Life of Sushi, the Secret Life of Hamburgers.

Han: And I did that for a year and I thought it was fantastic, fantastic experience.

Han: I met a lot of amazing people, but I decided that TV wasn’t for me and that I really needed to get back into marketing.

Han: And hence why I applied for the role at Brierley & Partners.

Carly: Can you help us out understand, how do you research the Secret Life of a hot dog?

Han: A lot of internet research.

Han: So yeah, a lot of desk research.

Han: And then also calling chefs to understand, you know, how did they come across a hot dog and how did they make it better?

Han: So, and I can’t remember how the hot dog started with the sausage and the bun that was so many years ago.

Han: But it was a lot of desk research.

Han: And so we also went to New York to interview Nathan’s as well.

Han: Nathan’s hot dogs, very popular up there.

Han: And then we would interview a lot of diners on why they would put hot dogs on the menu as well.

Han: So talking to a lot of experts and also doing a lot of desk research.

Han: And then it was up to the hosts to make this series interesting.

Carly: That’s awesome.

Carly: Thank you, Gus.

Carly: We should probably go back to talking about some loyalty, but I really wanted to hear about the secret life of hot dogs.

Han: But I think on that point though, I think being open to opportunities and being able to not take a linear path in your career.

Han: So just to say yes to things really led me down a path where I was like, wow, being able to have this opportunity to work in TV production, and then also being able to say, no, that’s not the career path I want to head towards, was really amazing for me.

Han: So I think in terms of just career advice, I think being open to opportunities and saying yes, would lead you down paths that you would never think that you would actually go down.

Carly: So true.

Carly: And you mentor at the moment as well?

Han: I do.

Han: I do a lot of mentoring with university students.

Han: It started off with one and it’s ended up with a couple, just by referral like loyalty.

Carly: Yes, always.

Han: What’s interesting to me is that when you talk to them, they want to get into the sexy marketing, the brand marketing, the social marketing, PR and no one wants to get into loyalty marketing.

Carly: Loyalty sexy, come on.

Han: I think it is.

Han: I think it’s really the only role where it’s measurable, you’re accountable, you generate a lot of ROI, but you really are able to create that emotional engagement and connection with customers.

Han: And to be able to change the behaviour over a programme is so, to me, so sexy and interesting.

Carly: I love your definition.

Carly: That’s fantastic.

Carly: Can you also talk to us about your three Cs?

Carly: I really like this.

Carly: Three Cs in Loyalty.

Han: Yes.

Han: Every time I design a programme, I look at it from a customer perspective.

Han: So what do the customers want?

Han: How do they see the programme working out in the market?

Han: So from a customer perspective, we do a lot of research, we understand what they want from the programme, but we also understand what they don’t want.

Han: That’s to do with a lot of qualitative and quantitative research.

Han: So taking the lens of the customer is so important.

Han: Then it’s also looking at the competitors.

Han: What are our competitors doing in this space?

Han: How can we learn from them?

Han: What are we not going to do as well?

Han: How can we have a competitive edge?

Han: That’s the second C.

Han: Then the third C is the commercial side, because there’s no point launching a loyalty programme that is not commercially viable, because you can have a fantastic programme and have all the engagement.

Han: But if it doesn’t change customer behaviour and it doesn’t deliver on the ROI, there’s really no point doing it because the cost will outweigh the benefits.

Han: So the last C is, is it commercially viable?

Han: If not, how do we make it commercially viable?

Han: Do we play with the currency, the earn rates?

Han: What I’d like to see around the benefits is, what’s high perceived value but low cost?

Han: For example, with Qantas, great example, wherever everyone wants a airline ticket, they want a seat on the airline to Qantas, that’s low cost because if they fly with an empty seat, it doesn’t cost them anything.

Han: So what’s better is to put someone in that empty seat.

Han: With every program that I’ve actually run, what benefit do we have whether it’s make up or samples or it’s a restaurant experience, what’s low cost that customers really proceed as high value?

Han: So how do you commercialize your program and over time, how do you make it feasible enough that you can add on additional investments as well?

Carly: And just touching on that, a lot of programs are looking into really core partnerships these days and it’s getting quite popular for 2025.

Han: I think partnerships is a great benefit to loyalty programs.

Han: It drives that value as well, especially complimentary partnerships.

Han: And when I was working for a retailer, but also an entertainment organization, we would look at what partnerships would elevate the experience.

Han: For example, if we were marketing a hotel, what additional benefits could we bring in to drive that value, whether it’s a hotel offer, whether it’s a champagne offer, whether it’s a transport offer, what’s going to drive that engagement and what are the complimentary partnerships that you can actually deliver to a customer that will make them a bit more sticky to your brand.

Han: So we would always look at partnerships to add more value to a program.

Carly: And just leading on from that as well, you touched on even just the samples.

Carly: What are your thoughts around the beauty industry and some of the programs running in that space at the moment?

Han: Oh, I think samples are fantastic.

Han: Look, and Mecca Beauty does it really well.

Carly: Yes, indeed.

Han: They’re one of the most talked about programs, especially amongst my friends.

Han: I don’t shop at Mecca that much to earn the benefits, but my friends and my brother and my friends are level three and level four, and they’re comparing their sample boxes every time.

Han: I think my brother receives about 10 boxes a year, and he every now and then gives me some samples, but he just loves his samples and he talks about them all the time.

Han: To Mecca, it’s low cost.

Han: They’re getting it from their suppliers.

Han: The benefits with the suppliers is that they’re getting their products in front of customers that are their target market.

Han: So samples are amazing, and the beauty industry have got a great opportunity there to build a database.

Han: Mecca’s loyalty program, I think there’s about 3 million members.

Han: So that’s your pool of test and learn.

Han: To be able to put new products in front of your members, to test those products, to drive them back into store, and then also to advocate for their program is absolutely amazing.

Carly: Definitely, and I think exactly these advocates you have in market, no one isn’t loving it at the moment.

Carly: And it’ll be interesting to see where those programs go.

Carly: They’ve set a level of standard.

Carly: What’s next?

Carly: How do they iterate?

Carly: And what are they looking for for the next change as well?

Han: You know what Mecca does really well?

Han: At the Australian Open, they had a big stand where they basically activated their loyalty program at the Australian Open.

Han: So that’s partnership as well as loyalty program activation.

Han: So my brother went down there because he wanted to go and see the Australian Open, but then he also wanted to get a free sample and to show that he was a loyal customer of Mecca.

Han: It’s absolutely amazing when you can fully integrate a loyalty program into your brand activities as well as your partnership activities.

Carly: And as you say that as well, experiences, another very, very popular theme coming through a lot of programs, B2B particularly.

Carly: What are your views on the different types of experiences we’re bringing into the loyalty programs?

Han: I think experience are amazing.

Han: It just provides that real emotional engagement and connection with your brand.

Han: When I was working for a hospitality brand, we launched a $250 million new members lounge.

Han: And that experience really drove that emotional connection with our program.

Han: But it was also used to defend against a competitor that was going into market.

Han: So with that new member lounge, we had a new menu, we had more staffing, we had elevated experiences to enable those 800 VIP top-tier members to stay engaged in our program, which is fantastic.

Han: And the airlines do it really well with their member lounges.

Han: And then some of the retailers do it really well with their partnerships and sponsorships, enabling some of those money can’t buy experiences for their top-tier members.

Han: It’s the advocacy of being part of that event or that member experience goes a long way.

Han: I think it’s fantastic.

Han: Every loyalty program should offer exclusive experiences, not to everyone because we know that it’s very costly, but definitely to your high-value members.

Carly: As you said, it’s that memorable experience.

Carly: They’re linking back to that emotional connection.

Carly: People really start to love the brand, which is exactly the objective here.

Han: It takes your program from being very transactional to something that is deep in the connection with your customers and the engagement.

Han: Being able to leverage that, the times when you may disappoint a customer, for example, you have this amazing lounge and I may, as a program manager, decide to reduce the earn rate.

Han: So it makes it positive with the negative as well.

Han: So it balances it all out as well.

Han: It buys you a bit of time when you are able to provide that soft benefit into your program.

Carly: Probably a bit of tolerance as well.

Carly: Members who are loving something, the experience or they’ve had that great, that feeling will tolerate a little bit if there is a mistake or an issue.

Han: Yeah.

Carly: Through their journey as well.

Han: Yes.

Carly: What would you say are some of the biggest industry game changes that we’re seeing at the moment?

Paula: What do consumers really expect from loyalty programs?

Paula: Before today’s show, I want to highlight customer loyalty predictions 2025 and beyond.

Paula: A practical roadmap from Comark for loyalty professionals like you, looking to build lasting customer relationships worldwide.

Paula: Based on a study across 15 countries and four continents, it reveals key trends shaping the near future of loyalty, including AI and sustainability.

Paula: To learn more and download this free report, visit comark.com.

Han: Well, what’s going to be really interesting is what Maya does.

Han: I’ve been watching them.

Han: Maya is a department store.

Han: You don’t mind that for your international audience.

Han: They’re a department store that is headed up by a CEO who came from Qantas, Frequent Flyer.

Han: And their recent acquisition of all of the other brands from Premier Brands is going to be very interesting.

Han: She’s also changed her leadership team as well.

Han: So what they do in terms of building a huge database, but also tracking a customer from early stages of fashion all the way through to their mature stage is going to be really interesting as well.

Han: So I think I’m watching my very closely to see what they do.

Han: And if Olivia has anything to do, that she’s going to monetize that database and make it fantastic.

Han: I think they still have some customer engagement, customer experience issues in store.

Han: So loyalty alone is not going to address that.

Han: It needs to be part of a bigger transformation.

Han: But it’s a start.

Han: It’s a start by building the database, getting to understand her customers, and also sort of tracking their customer over time.

Han: That’s going to be really interesting.

Han: Another interesting development, I think, will be David Jones, a premium department store retailer here.

Han: They haven’t had a loyalty program in years.

Han: So for them to come out with one in October this year is going to be interesting.

Han: I know that they’re investing about $250 million in digital engagement as well as loyalty.

Han: So really keen to see what they do because the department store experience, it used to be amazing, but now it’s been let down by a lack of service.

Han: So it’ll be interesting to see how they integrate, again, the customer experience in store with a loyalty program that is supposed to drive engagement and that purchase frequency.

Carly: I know you have first-hand experience definitely in this space yourself, having developed loyalty programs for some of these bigger names.

Carly: Anything particular you’re looking for when they do launch, because I know a lot of people are talking about the upcoming program, especially David Jones.

Han: I think how they integrate service.

Han: If you don’t get the service elements right, I think that’s where the program is going to fall down.

Han: So if you don’t have the right staff in store, you don’t recognize me, for example, as a VIP member or you don’t provide me with tangible benefits and with real value and also with that exclusivity, I just don’t think it’s going to work.

Han: There’s no point launching a loyalty program that doesn’t offer value.

Han: And value is very different to different people.

Han: Value at its basic level could be just an exchange where you’re getting points or dollars back.

Han: But then value to a high-value member is all about that recognition, being able to reward me, not only transactionally, but on the emotional side as well.

Carly: Well, there’s a real theme here, and we just touched on this earlier, around how to train staff, how to engage staff within the service of a loyalty program.

Carly: It’s so important in these environments.

Han: It is.

Han: And making sure that they’re a customer, so they are a customer of the loyalty program, so that they can actually talk about the benefits is key.

Han: And like I said in the past, with retail staff, there’s a high level of churn.

Han: So it’s how do you get them from the onboarding period, onboarding process first and foremost, get them excited, and then over time, just make it relevant to them and make it as exciting to them as it is to the customer.

Carly: And if we’re talking around these programs and the big launches coming up and some of the keys to success, what are some of the ways that you look to define success in the loyalty space?

Han: I think success to me is whether the loyalty program has had an impact on the overall brand relationship.

Han: And in the past, I’ve tracked not only customer sentiment, so not only the engagement side, the participation side, and the increase in ATV or increase in purchase frequency, but also tracking whether the loyalty program has elevated the brand and is meaningful to the customer from a brand perspective as well.

Han: And how that loyalty program changes brand perceptions against the competitors.

Han: So when we launch loyalty programs, we not only track customer sentiment, but we also track the brand sentiment and whether the loyalty program shifts that.

Han: Because overall, you want the loyalty program to generate ROI.

Han: You want the loyalty program to shift customer behavior.

Han: But what we also want is that loyalty program to be loved by customers.

Han: And brand love, not only for your brand, but for your program is so important.

Carly: Yes.

Carly: Look, one thing I love to talk about is the good, the bad, the ugly of loyalty.

Carly: How can we discuss this today?

Carly: I’d love to hear your maybe bad.

Carly: Let’s go there.

Han: The bad, when you take away a benefit without understanding the consequences, I think.

Han: I won’t say names, but there’s been several programs that take away benefits without understanding how that’s going to be perceived in the market.

Han: And one brand took away that benefit but then quickly reinstated it due to customer sentiment.

Han: So I think that is a bad move.

Han: And another bad move is following a loyalty program or a rewards program without any true tangible benefits as well.

Han: So sometimes companies will launch a rewards program, collect the email address, won’t communicate to them and they won’t provide any type of value.

Han: So that’s not real loyalty, is it?

Carly: It’s a newsletter.

Carly: And maybe, what do you think is the best?

Carly: Let’s go with the good.

Han: I think the best programs are one that truly integrate business strategy with marketing.

Han: So from the top right through to front line team members, everyone embraces loyalty.

Han: And loyalty does not just only sit in marketing, it sits across the organization.

Han: For example, in retail, it will influence how you purchase merchandise, how you will service your customers in store, how you operate, how you operate the stores, how you actually launch new stores, and in which location for which customers.

Han: Companies that do it really well, make sure that from the top to front line team members, they all embrace loyalty, whether it’s from the data collected or from the insights around how do we drive better customer engagement.

Carly: It’s definitely something we hear a lot, especially through Let’s Talk Loyalty is the best programs are top-down.

Carly: They’re really ingrained throughout the business.

Carly: There’s no question.

Han: Absolutely.

Han: Then over time, how do you make it a profit center?

Han: Over time, how do you monetize your database?

Han: How do you make it profitable that you can bring in new partners, you can monetize the database, and you can provide greater benefits and rewards for your members?

Carly: What I’d really like to talk about next, Tarn, as well, is your sustainability, giving back, and there’s a whole other area of your career and time that you invest.

Carly: Talk to us about that because this is really important and really exciting as well.

Han: Well, sustainability and giving back in loyalty programs has been around for a while, but it really didn’t take off until probably the last few years.

Han: I know that you’ve got a report for Love of Money that I think it was at 2022 that’s stated that 40% of people would love to give their loyalty rewards to a charity.

Han: I think that percentage goes up to about 60% when it’s Gen Z.

Han: So younger customers love charity.

Han: They love the sustainability.

Han: What I’ve been doing over the last year is working with charities.

Han: I’m on the board of two charities.

Han: One is for unemployment.

Han: And the other one is for helping women and children who are facing domestic violence and homelessness.

Han: And what I see there is really, it’s amazing the work that the Equanimity Project does around providing holistic solutions to people like you and me who don’t have access to government funded programs because A, we may be seen as too financially stable, or we’re not part of the lower social economic group.

Han: Because I think there is a stereotype that when women who face domestic violence, they’re from social economic backgrounds, and they’re not a lot of our clients who come through, are educated, financially stable.

Han: But it’s unfortunate they’re in relationships where there’s coercive control and financial control, so they don’t know where to turn to.

Han: The Equanimity Project does an amazing job of helping those women.

Han: What I would love to see in loyalty is that any unredeemed rewards or benefit goes to charities like the Equanimity Project, because how amazing would it be if, for example, David Jones says, instead of redeeming your $15 birthday reward, you can give it to someone who needs it, who needs a smile.

Han: They could use that $15 and redeem it at David Jones.

Han: That would be phenomenal.

Carly: I think this is such a great point you make around not just the stats and the number of members and customers who would like to be part of this and would like to give back.

Carly: There’s a real sentiment.

Carly: There’s no question the research is showing us that.

Carly: But then how do we engage with the loyalty program managers to start to integrate this and bring this through?

Han: Absolutely.

Carly: There’s a need and a want.

Han: Absolutely.

Han: I was just wanting to say that H&M does it really well, where you can actually recycle clothes, bring back your old clothes so you can earn rewards.

Han: I thought that was phenomenal.

Han: Then also with Qantas and Woolworths, where you can donate your points to selected charities.

Han: I would love to see more companies do that.

Carly: Do you think this is a theme that we’re going to see more of?

Carly: Where would you see loyalty in five years?

Han: Well, where I’d love to see loyalty is how they integrate AI into making loyalty programs a bit more seamless, in terms of engaging with your customers, but also in terms of implementing it within the organization as well.

Han: With AI, it helps with productivity, but it also helps especially with the customer facing.

Han: Some retailers will use AI for styling advice, and it’s how do you leverage that technology to include the loyalty program into that as well.

Han: With styling advice, it’s could you encourage your customers to use that program?

Han: Once they use that program, then they get rewarded based on their engagement with the loyalty program.

Han: That gamification side of things and that engagement side of things with AI will be interesting to see the developments.

Han: Then also, I think in five years time, I would hope that a lot of the program managers who have launched their programs this year continually evolve its societal trends as well as consumer trends, because you would hope that they would integrate, for example, sustainability or the cost of living as we’re seeing now into the loyalty programs in the future as well.

Han: Program that doesn’t evolve over time won’t be relevant to customers.

Han: I would hope that in five years time, their programs evolve and they become more engaging, and they integrate technology as well as data.

Carly: I guess touching back on a theme that you’ve also mentioned before, and your mentoring and talent as well, for our programs to evolve and the industry to evolve.

Carly: I know you’ve got some views on talent, and how do we bring great people through this industry?

Han: I think we need to really re-brand loyalty marketing.

Paula: The sexy bit.

Han: The sexy bit.

Han: And I know that universities are teaching it now, that when they leave university, to be able to have, instead of a marketing graduate program, you could have a loyalty graduate program where you help them see that loyalty is one part psychology, one part data, one part technology.

Han: And it’s how do you combine all three of them into creating not only communication programs but also programmatic loyalty that really creates a difference.

Han: And being able to promote the benefits of loyalty to graduates is really important as well.

Han: So, A, to make it seem exciting, and the exciting part is the fact that you can actually measure your programs, you can leverage media and content to drive engagement, and then B, you could leverage technology.

Han: Technology is basically moving so fast, and it’s how do you leverage technology to create that customer engagement to drive that change in behavior.

Han: That’s going to be really interesting, and I think it would be quite exciting as well, because it’s the only marketing stream that leverages both content, strategy, data, as well as technology.

Han: I think if we just rebranded it, you’d get a lot more people into this.

Carly: We need a loyalty program for loyalty, right?

Han: Yes.

Carly: But also, your three points there around technology, data, psychology, and bringing that together, it’s so true and such core parts of loyalty programs, development of them, and our industry.

Han: Yeah, absolutely.

Han: I just think that loyalty programs are just, if done right, a great tool to connect with your customers.

Han: If you think about it above the line, you get measurements based on awareness and brand equity.

Han: But where is that emotional connection, that one-to-one connection with the customer?

Han: You’ll get that through social and digital.

Han: But again, you could leverage the data, but what benefits are you getting from that program?

Han: Whereas if you are designing a program that has all of those channels in your communication mix, and then you overlay that with technology and the benefits, I think you’ve got a real formula for success.

Carly: Well, as you said even earlier, the two-way communication piece is quite unique to Loyalty.

Carly: The program that you mentioned that changed a feature, had to change it back because it was bad feedback, at least they were able to get the feedback.

Carly: That’s where the communication comes in.

Han: Yeah, and you’re able to really react quite quickly as well.

Han: I think customer feedback is so important to any Loyalty program.

Han: You’ve got to spend at least six months just monitoring sentiment on any change.

Carly: Absolutely.

Carly: Now, before we finish up today, this has been such a fun conversation.

Carly: I’d like to ask you two things.

Carly: One is your proudest achievement and also life and Loyalty.

Carly: What do you know for sure?

Han: My proudest achievement is being a mum, really.

Han: I’m the mother of a seven-year-old and he keeps me on my feet.

Han: Also, I’ve been able to, in the last 12 months, take time out from the corporate world and to give back to charities.

Han: That’s been phenomenal.

Han: Then what do I know about Loyalty?

Han: I think simplicity in Loyalty and in life is key.

Han: Everything has to be simple for you to drive that engagement.

Han: If there’s too many hurdles to get over, you’re really going to lose your customers and that’s life as well.

Han: If there’s too many hurdles to get over, I just don’t think I’ll do anything.

Han: Then I think relationships.

Han: Relationships are very important to both your personal life, but also in your professional life and creating that emotional connection with your relationships as well is important.

Carly: Thank you so much.

Carly: I’ve really enjoyed today.

Carly: Thank you so much for your time.

Carly: I guess the most important thing is how we’re making loyalty sexy again.

Carly: So this is great to chat and all your fantastic advice.

Han: I’d like to have another session on that and do some research.

Carly: Well, thank you so much again.

Carly: It’s been fantastic.

Han: Thank you, Carly.

Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

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