#269: HEMA's Heritage and Values Drive Customer Loyalty

Today’s episode features another retail success story, this time from a much-loved Dutch brand called HEMA.

With an incredible heritage of almost 100 years, HEMA’s approach to business showcases some of the key principles that drive customer loyalty – values like simplicity, consistency, and fairness.

Joining today’s show to share her insights on how this retailer earns so much customer loyalty from its customers is Karlijn Van Den Berg, HEMA’s Loyalty & CRM Manager, based in the Netherlands.

Show Notes: 

1) Karlijn Van Den Berg

2) HEMA 

Audio Transcript

Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I’m your host, Paula Thomas. And if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.


Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty, featuring another retail success story this time from a much-loved brand in Europe called HEMA, with an incredible heritage of almost a hundred years HEMA and its loyalty strategy are a wonderful example to me of some of the key principles that truly drive customer loyalty. Values like simplicity, consistency, and fairness.


Joining me on today’s episode to share her insights on how this retail brand earns loyalty from their customers is Karlijn van den Berg, the loyalty and CRM Manager with HEMA based in the Netherlands. I hope you enjoy our conversation. And Charlene’s wonderful insights about loyalty to the brand supported by their loyalty program.


Paula: So, Carlene, how are you? Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.


Karlijn: Yeah, I’m good. Thanks for having me.


Paula: Oh, I’m delighted to have you. And one of the things that I always aspire to do since I started the show, actually, is to have more global voices of loyalty, And just because we work a lot with The Wise Marketer, for example, and they have that as their tagline. So I know you’re joining me today from Amsterdam, aren’t you?


Karlijn: Yeah, close to Amsterdam, but my office is in Amsterdam. So from the Netherlands. Indeed.


Paula: OK, wonderful. Well, listen, we’re going to get into a very exciting story which goes back almost a hundred years. So I think that’s absolutely extraordinary in retail terms. But before we talk about Hema, the brands that you represent loyalty for, as you know, we always start the show talking about our personal favorite loyalty programs or ones that we admire. So let’s kick off and please do tell me what is your favorite loyalty program?


Karlijn: Yeah, the favorite loads of programs, more as a multiple actually are the ones from the grocery and retail retailers I’m using on a daily basis because I think the best way to say if something is favorite, if you can use it on a longer term on a daily basis. And the one I really admire is if they’re capable of adding digital services like cell scanning or mobile scanning to the service where the loyalty card is the ID to start your digital journey in a physical store. And I think they do it really well. It’s really amazing how it drives people during their journey to top up to actually redeem on the spot. The two examples I really like is Albert Heign and Jumbo who are the biggest food retailers in the Netherlands? OK, they’re coming lots of steps and every every time I’m visiting the store, they’re actually showing new things and every time a surprise with some new delightful additions to their service.


Paula: Wow. It’s very impressive. And I have done a little bit of work just I suppose researching, particularly in grocery and convenience retail, just you know, from writing, I guess, and researching over the last couple of years. And I have been extremely impressed, I guess with particularly again there it seems to be in your part of the world, Karlijn, where the understanding of the role of digital in the retail experience seems much clearer or perhaps just more advanced. And I love that because I think, you know, popping into the grocery store, you know, might take 5 minutes, you know, every day or every second day. But if there’s a digital relationship, then with that brand, the opportunities for engagement are just unbelievably multiplied. Is that true in your experience?


Karlijn: It is. And people are really used to it. So they actually also expect a digital experience like that. So the level is high and the others actually need to add to that. Yeah. Because that’s that’s the benchmark that’s currently in the market. So it’s not all buys at the end, but it’s actually a device that starts the journey from from when you entered a store by identification, getting your handheld with like a, like I said, the mobile device. And then actually I sort of describe it as a digital warm bath because this is where sort of everything goes fluent so your personal promotions are there. You actually are sort of helped through your shopping list. So if that’s all integrated, then you don’t even need to think in store. And that’s where you also start selecting a store because at the end of the day if you’re stressed, you don’t want to think, then the digital service can kind of reduce that stress, and then you choose the other side because that part is actually more flexible. Yeah, and I do agree that if you look to two other pieces other parts of the world that is mostly really transactional and it’s sort of they’re doing it through sort of reduced or just offline store. Yeah. So I think the intention is different where I feel that in Holland they’re really trying to make it a service to the clients. So it’s more consumer-focused instead of reducing people. I think that angle gives a different flavor to to it. Yeah, and I think Dutch design is helping. So our user experience is really on the. Yeah, on the high end. So they also know how to design.


Paula: It’s beautiful. And that is something that I really believe with the very core of my being is that the intention of any, whether it’s a digital program in fact, or a loyalty program, I really believe that the intention behind it is something that people feel. So and I know that doesn’t make any logical sense or any scientific sense, but I think as a human beings, we all do know if this is here to help me or as you said, just to, you know, reduce the number of cashiers, for example. It’s a very powerful statement yeah.


Karlijn: And I agree. And that’s difficult also to tell other people or to sort of say, like in your strategy to just say we need to do it with good intentions. And it’s something you feel in your stomach. OK, how do you put that into a loyalty strategy? Yeah. So indeed, the intention is something that needs to be from within and within the company. Within the whole company. Yeah. Yeah, I’m happy that that’s part of HEMA, also I’m kind of spoiled with that, but.


Paula: Totally.


Karlijn: I totally agree on that. On that side.


Paula: Absolutely. Well, I think it’s the perfect way to to to get into the HEMA story. Absolutely. I know you love this brand. You love working there. I know there’s a lot of consumer love as well. Some of the the background statistics I got for people who mightn’t be familiar with the brand as I wasn’t actually I am over 750 stores across 12 countries, predominantly focused in the Benelux region, so headquartered in Amsterdam, but a wonderful success story. So tell us a bit about HEMA from your perspective.


Karlijn: Yeah, so HEMA is a pretty old guy because it was so founded by two, two guys and he’s 97 years old and you also turn 100 and more and that’s, that’s what we’re all aiming for. Yeah. I think it’s, it’s in everyone’s history. So a lot of people tell stories from, from their youth going with their mom to the store, getting a coffee, grabbing some cookies. The cookies were famous story so it’s it’s part of people’s weekend trip or daily trip so it’s part of our Dutch heritage and this is where when a few years ago it was kind of HEMA was struggling again so we had a lot of let’s say issues with private equity and how to move forward and how to survive in a difficult world with physical retail. And I think the most special thing about, HEMA, is there’s a lot of brands disappeared. But in in Holland, everyone was saying we need to save, HEMA, we don’t want HEMA to go away. And there was actually a group of consumers that sort of together set up like a plan to buy HEMA. So they said if there’s no other buyer, then we do it as consumers together. And I think that power is that I think we are spoiled with that. The people say it should not go away. You know, a lot of other brands that felt a bit similar. Yeah, that they didn’t survive. Yeah. And I think this shows the potential. And it’s also why our new owners are also said that we need to move forwards and give it another. Yeah, another push. So it’s exciting to step into that experience and yeah, turn HEMA 100 and more.


Paula: Well, I’ll be dying to explore the role of loyalty, particularly in that journey, which I know goes back a few years. But, but before we even talk loyalty, Karlene, what would you say is the reason for that depth of love? And I remember hearing you talking before about what HEMA seems to have is what everybody else on my show is aspiring to. So the brand has that emotional loyalty already. So, you know, is it the legacy do you think it’s the fact that it is, you know there since 1926, nearly 100 years, is it the core products? Is it the brands? What do you think it is that created that brand love that you’re experiencing?


Karlijn: Yeah, it’s a combination. So I’m not, I’m not like a brand marketeer per se, but what a lot of people say of course, and what makes it special is that all products are designed by ourselves. So compared to other department store, I think that makes it special. So design is at the core of our company. So and also making things for people that love with a lot of quirkiness and also really the Dutch design that’s added to it being a lot of brands Heroes, I sort of talk to you shared with you about a few items that we have, like our famous pastry, the Tompouce with a nice pink layer, which of course is nice to put on a lot of products. But we also have Takkie a dog. It’s part of a famous story in, in the Netherlands. So we have a lot of things that people are adoring. And I think that that’s pieces of the design that makes people want the products. And also when you enter to start at that feeling of that, everything fits together. So we, we have a lot of trends stored in the same design or the same color. So it’s really a relaxed atmosphere if you enter and then you start like looking at things. Yeah, seasonal products that really make you feel you want it. Yeah, yeah. That’s so it’s the product at the core we design. OK, we’re also putting that back into the strategy. So our latest TV commercials are really showing how we design products also to make them last longer. Of course, in our sustainability story to show that’s really knowing how people use products and can make it better but also more sustainable. Oh yeah. That combination is, is great. And indeed the heritage, like you said, no different from the past. Yeah, the combination makes it maybe that people are so in love with the brands and probably a lot of extra things. That is really hard to grasp.


Paula: It. Totally. And I was about to agree with you. Like, I’m not a brand marketer either, but what I can see, you know, is the esthetic and the design and the consistency actually. So we’ll obviously link to too that the HEMA website in the show notes. And for anyone just interested in listening, it’s HEMA. So I would have pronounced that schema until we met, but HEMA is the correct pronunciation. There is a beautiful simplicity, actually, about the whole brands. And I, you know, I did actually a previous podcast early on, the role of simplicity and driving loyalty. So whereas it’s probably hard to measure, probably hard to prove. I fundamentally, again, as a human being, I believe that when you make things very simple for people and they just build up that understanding of what it is you’re offering. So yes, loyalty programs have a role to play and again, we’ll get into that now. But I definitely think those the core values that I saw on your website in terms of the wording. So again, I suppose back to brand intention, like your website talks about optimism, uniqueness, and accessibility in terms of pricing. So again, I think that comes through in terms of the design and the esthetic of everything that HEMA’s doing.


Karlijn: Yeah. Thanks for adding the things that I should express first. No, the thing is a lot of things are so we’re so used to it. So I think, yeah, being used to Dutch design and the simplicity, sometimes we’re not even aware of it. So if you look at it from outside will think, Wow, this is such a clean world. It’s like sort of, yeah, foreseeable and I think we’re not even if you’re looking at it on a daily basis, you forget about, it’s that that makes it maybe a special thing. But indeed we’re not screaming. It’s not sort of a promo explosion. Yeah. It’s really subtle, so totally agree. Yeah. And the brand values and the pragmatism, the optimism. Yeah. Not taking it serious. Also being more on the, on the actual being inclusive, talking about things. So currently we’re now launching a bra for if you want to add if you had a breast removal, I don’t know the exact mastectomy. Yeah, exactly. So a bra to this fit to that if you want to add some extra feeling to it. So we’re really sort of trying to be also with our product development to be on the edge of Wow, yeah, inclusive for brand. So that’s, that’s one example. But also with pride and all these things, we’re on top of it.


Paula: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, that’s a lovely sentiment because again, I’m sure it’s, it’s a small market, but you know, already I know somebody who would need that, unfortunately. Yeah. So it’s a, it’s a sad reality of life that there are things like this that needs dedicated design and thinking and integrity. I guess, you know, to come back to, you know, what I’m hearing coming through and everything that you’re doing. So listen, let’s get into the loyalty story. Yeah. We love the brands and started I believe in 2017 although I know you’re there. Is it about one year that you’ve been leading the loyalty side down? Yeah.


Karlijn: November last year. Yeah


Paula: November, OK, so I mean I’d love just a sense of, you know, with that brand love as context. What was the role of the loyalty program? I guess going back five years, you know, what was the purpose of creating a loyalty program in the first place, do you think?


Karlijn: I think the strategy from the start was really clear and I’m happy that’s also on the base because then it also makes it more easy to to continue in it, really to data capturing and to actually already use it instantly in our communication. So that is at the base. So I think where a lot of people are sort of trying to sort of reach that instinct that was at the base and the set up of how the program has started. So I think when I stepped in, that base was already there. So the whole loop from capturing and actually using it in communication for our promo activities that’s all in place. And I’m happy that I don’t need to prove the value on loyalty there. And of course you can extend it, but that’s already really powerful base to continue with it. So that was five years ago and in, in basis, the program is still set up the same way also because our technology stack is the same so you’re correct, some limitations there. Yeah. The basic points based program, one Euro for one point with vouchers, people can choose their own discount or free products or limits. It’s additions that we designed ourselves. And now we’re adding a bit more, let’s say, fun elements to it. But the base is already really pleasurable for people and also. Yeah, good numbers. Yeah, yeah. I was spoiled when I entered that. That was actually already in place. So wonderful that.


Paula: And what kind of membership numbers do you have in the program now, Karljin?


Karlijn: So we have a lot of people in our database, but we do say that we have three and a half million people active in the program, but two and a half million really active people. So some are a bit sleeping, especially now with cold feet. We need to sort of reshuffle. OK, but which which are the people that we really sort of see as our active base? Yes. But there are a lot of people that are quite inactive and they’re they’re part of our database. So maybe we have a bit of historical information so we know a bit of their purchase behavior. So that’s still used for our communication. But the base of this active is a bit smaller. And there we really want to increase to make sure that we can on a daily basis also act on the changes that people are showing us. So yeah, that that’s the bit where our basis currently. Yes.


Paula: Of course. Of course. Yeah. Am and it is it sounds again I suppose the same core value of simplicity. As you said one point support per Euro of spend my right in understanding then there’s no tiers there’s no like gold or silver, nothing like that. It’s purely, you know, measuring the spend and rewarding them with coupons and vouchers and then these these core products, which I’d love to talk a bit about as well.


Karlijn: Yeah, it’s really simple. And a lot of people are always discussing tiers I think of as sort of a brand for everyone. I don’t think it’s really clear match.


Paula: Nice, that’s a good insight. Yeah.


Karlijn: For me, It doesn’t really feel. But we’re of course on the back end side. We’re using the most loyal to reward and more actually sort of saying we need to the people that are less loyal, we need to activate them. Just more on the back end you do know the tiers of people acting on them.


Paula: Yeah.


Karlijn: But we’re not exposing it to them because it also shows I have always have a bit of difficulty with tears because in the end it shows how much money can you spend. So it’s just either you’re rich or your poor. I think especially now with, with inflation, I think it’s even yeah. I don’t think it’s a nice way of expressing, especially if you do it on a point space because then you’re just showing, hey, thanks for spending as much money as you can yeah. So I think it’s hard to sort of put it in a different way that it’s not showing how rich you are.


Paula: Yeah. It’s a good insight and thank you for that. It’s not actually something I thought about before, but I’ve been wandering actually for, for quite a while. I don’t know if you would have noticed it, but Starbucks in the US discontinued their tiering program, I believe about a year ago, and I hope I’m up to date on that, but I did find it very interesting that, you know, and I interpreted it as, I suppose Karlijn as a move towards simplicity. But just with that point and that insight that you’re mentioning about wanting to be, you know, equally appealing to every consumer, and again, particularly, I know your brand is positioned as a mass market brand as clearly Starbucks is maybe that idea that is, I think, relevant in other categories. And I love it in the airline industry, for example, but I want to get to have it and maybe that’s just not something that is needed in particularly everyday retail or department store retailers, as I guess you guys are in.


Karlijn: Yeah, yeah. And I always it’s interesting that with every also in in my career in the past, it it always pops up. People are sort of they are so excited about the tiers and it’s in every concept and every time, like we talked about intentions and then I thought I went to my stomach so it just doesn’t feel right. And yeah, it’s really difficult to sort of if people are excited about the concept to show them. Yeah, I think it’s I think this piece of the story is something that’s so implicitly not OK. Yeah. And if you start sort of working around it, then it becomes complicated. So then you lose the simplicity. So that’s a you sort of trick that’s there. Yeah. So I think you can use it in, in especially if you have your personalization in place, which is difficult, then it’s easier to, to use the mechanics, but without exposing it to, to the consumer.


Paula: Well, well also I think that’s brilliant for everyone listening Karlijn because what it does is explain the value of continuing with this Pareto Principle that we all know. 80% of your revenue is probably coming from 20% of the base. So it’s still needs to be identified, isolated, but as you said, you don’t necessarily need to expose it. So I think that’s a strategy again that I haven’t talked about with anybody before. So yeah, given me a lot of their food for thought I think today.

Karlijn: Yeah. And especially it’s funny with HEMA, everyone thinks that they are the biggest fan of HEMA and that they actually are allowed to tell what HEMA should do. So if we start making groups out of this yet you’re less of a HEMA fan, people will not allow it because they all say and everyone you talk like if I tell people I work with HEMA, they say, Oh, I need to tell you, this, this should be different or This is good but what feels that they have a responsibility in HEMA, and that they can also decide on what HEMA Should do. So that’s maybe also a bit of a tricky part for lawyers, political party and everyone. So everyone has a piece of it.


Paula: That’s Hilarious. Well, but again, comes back to the brand love.


Karlijn: Exactly.


Paula: Yeah. But what I do love that you do on the rewards side is you you leverage those and very fun assets that you briefly mentioned earlier, Karlijn, you know, for example, the Tompouce, which I had to look up, I hope I pronounce that properly, but this beautiful iconic product. Um, you know, who doesn’t love a layered cake? You know, especially when it’s got a lovely pink icing all over the top. So tell us just a bit about those kind of merchandise products. And and I think I’m right in understanding that’s exclusively the as rewards for loyalty program members. Is that correct?


Karlijn: Yeah. So when I entered HEMA, I actually felt that that was the biggest thing that I sort of saw as a difference to other retailers I work for. They always tried to say, we want a great reward, emotional loyalty. And then I came to HEMA, and then they design a product, a water bottle, a bag. They put our iconic product, which is a sausage or indeed the Tompuce, which is a pastry or a Takkie, which is a famous dog. Yeah, it just a regular product that we normally sell. Yeah. And they’re sold out in two weeks. So everyone’s running to the store to get it. And they’re small things. It’s like even like a foldable bag. And people are if you look on social media, like, I want to share, share with rich friends yeah. Yeah. I think that’s just doing the things you do and indeed make it exclusive. Yeah. But the exclusivity is not the piece where the one running to the store to just really love the product and they’re walking outside. So yeah, we also think like how can we create a product that people are using in, in the outside world? So they’re showing it to other people, which of course is fun. Yeah. We just recently design our own bike, which we called the Tompouce Bike. Well, been going yellow and we use it for our Scan and Win. So we try to sort of increase swipes. And by that with every swipe you had a chance to win the bike and it was out of the it was really a big success. Yeah, of course people tried to fraud and all these causes things. Yeah, yeah, it didn’t work. But you know that there are things that people try and so we’re also use it for employees also to win the bike to sort of increase the scan rates. Yeah, yeah. That was amazing. And then I think the, the most fun of it is also that we all the people that didn’t win the bike, of course there’s many we gave them a coupon to get their own their physical Tompouce so that the pastry so they get it as a sort of “I’m sorry you lost” “I’m sorry for your loss, but here you have some sweets from us.”


Paula: A piece of cake, you know what, a consolation prize actually.


Karlijn: Yes. Exactly.


Paula: So lovely idea. Yeah.


Karlijn: It’s not a bike, but a real Tompouce. I think that’s like if we just put those colors and we call the Tompouce Bike. Yeah, whatever we put it on. Yeah. Yeah, it works.


Paula: Incredible. Yeah. And of course, Amsterdam is, is, is world famous, I think in terms of the, the number of people who do cycle I think pretty much everywhere. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s the default mode of transport almost in the city, isn’t it?


Karlijn: Yeah. So that’s why it’s a good it’s a good price because it’s also being adopt or whatever. So you do need to uh, sometimes we place it or they are standing outside. So yeah. So the the limited edition is a really easy way to activate users to also make sure that there is a high redemption rate. Yeah. Now we increased it last year normally it was like four times a year. We had a limited edition. Now we have one new one every months, so we really use it as an asset. It’s a lot of work. So my team is actually in product development, which of course normally a loyalty manager would not do product development. So of course that’s makes, that makes my team really unicorn. I think sure. So that, that’s added to it and it’s also makes it a lot of fun. Yeah. To run the program. And I think that’s also important that you. Yeah, excitement of putting things out there and if you’re just using it with an external partner. So you’re doing like tickets. Yeah, it’s just it they also called emotional loyalty but there is no engagement to it. It’s not fit to the brands. Yeah. But also to, to put it in your programs like, OK, let’s see how it works. But here it is. Yeah. A lot of effort before is already helping with the success.

Paula: Totally. And I’m curious about how limited your limited additions are because there must be a temptation. Or maybe it’s just me now. I would be greedy. I would probably be tempted at one point to maybe totally saturate the market. So instead of it selling out in two weeks that, you know, literally the whole city suddenly gets the shopping bag or the, as you said, something very visible. And so do you ever get tempted to an increase to the production?


Karlijn: Yeah, we don’t know yet because it’s it’s it also is high cost because it’s part of the marketing budget for the loyalty program. So sometimes it’s a bit difficult and especially because we’re increasing the the with every month. Now, we’re just looking at it like how fast does it go if we if we change it every month, we don’t want to have the risk that we’re flooding the stores. And we have a bit of issue that we need to put it behind the cash desk currently because we can I said it was a normal product. So that’s why we don’t want to flood the cashier space with all those products. But that’s a bit of a operational challenge we have. I think the bike inattention sort of had the sort of the big, big effect that everyone talks about it. So then was everyone saying, hmm, maybe we should start sending the bike, but then check out, but we’re not into bikes. So maybe door after sales is something we need to consider.


Paula: That’s very true. Yeah.


Karlijn: Yeah. So yes and no. I think it’s fun to also change it. And also we sell those same products in stores sometimes. So this is part of the program. It’s something we also have limitations just on fuel. So we also don’t want to cannibalize on the regular sales so it’s a bit of a combination. Got it. And sometimes you just don’t know. So there’s an upcoming candle that smells like Stroopwafel, which is also an icon products. OK, that’s also like a cookie, but it’s really sweet. OK, that’s Stroopwafel. We are again.


Paula: I didn’t understand. Thank you for explaining.


Karlijn: Yeah. So that’s, that’s candle. Yeah. Let’s see how it goes. Sometimes you also are to. Yeah. To estimate before. Yeah.


Paula: For sure. Yeah. Just as a funny aside, I recently got married and we were doing little wedding favors, you know, like these small gifts that you give to our wedding guests. And my husband is Swiss, so that was easy. We got Swiss chocolates, and then I was really struggling and to, to do something, you know, properly Irish and so I ended up actually also with a candle. But it was designed it was a Guinness candle, but it wasn’t, thankfully, smelling of Guinness because that would just not be nice. It was smelling of vanilla. So that was my my decision in the end, actually, it was quite fun. So I do think that’s something that actually is pretty universal. So again.


Karlijn: This exactly the same. So indeed, a candle put your brand on. How should it smell in this? Actually, yeah, we had a good smell.


Paula: Totally, totally great. The other topic I suppose I just wanted to ask you about, Karlene, was you mentioned briefly swipe rates. And again, I suppose as you know, I’ve done a bit of work in convenience retail, less so in other sectors. But I’m always curious to know, you know, without giving too much away because I know you won’t be able to share your own actual statistics, but you know, in the retail sector, what do you think, you know, listeners should be thinking about in terms of their KPIs like what percentage of their customers should be swiping a card, given the reliance on staff and everything else that’s involved with that, with achieving that?


Karlijn: Yeah, well, I think first of all, it’s difficult to say of the percentage of consumers because you don’t know if they’re only identified, you don’t know how many. Sometimes they are. And of course you have other measures. So we measure how much transactions is being identified. So of course sometimes that can be less people. I did see a lot of numbers in in grocery retailer. Of course, it’s going into 90%, but that’s only possible with, I sometimes called blackmailing. So to add to your pricing, so we don’t have a blackmail principle for most of our based software. And we do say discount rates increasing with 10%. If we add member promos on our cards currently this week we have a 10% extra with the cards on all promos, OK, and we do see a big increase. So without saying yeah, big our numbers are I do think that you see that getting people into the habit of using a card you often need just regular promos. And we also see in our base we kind of gave them names. We saw people that are more, let’s say on the lazy side, they just want to strike the card and get instant rewards. They don’t want to use coupons. It’s just a lot of work you need to get your balance, get your vouchers. Yeah. So they’re two types of people that that are in our program. And if you don’t have the member promos, you’re kind of losing the people that don’t get that instant benefit so I think that’s that’s an important bar to increase scan rates. And you can do a lot with your with your member, with your staff members. But there is no instant benefit a lot of people say, well, never mind, I don’t do anything with those points. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s difficult to turn around. So we’re not as close to food retail, but I’ve also heard numbers in food retail that are close to our number. So I think we’re doing quite OK. Yeah, but not as OK this company presents.


Paula: No, no, I think. For sure. For sure. Yeah. And I suppose we all have the ultimate goal, you know, maybe we get to 100% some day, but anyway, not there. Yes. And yes, as you said, there’s, there has to be a reason, I think without blackmail, ideally for our for a member to make sure to swipe and again, I’m sure even for the point of sale for the people who are manning the tills, I guess sometimes they’re under more pressure if they’ve got queues and that kind of stuff as well that they’ve got to manage. So they might not be as focused on on making sure to swipe every transaction as you said, if there is pressure in the store at a particular time. So yeah, so one to watch and one we will stay connected and closely, you know, hoping to understand as as HEMA continues to grow and so I think that’s all the questions I have from my side, Karlijn, is there anything else that you think is really fun to talk about or you know, anything else that our listeners should know about HEMA? Before we wrap up.


Karlijn: No, I don’t think so. I think we talked about a lot. Yeah, I can talk for ages, but I think I think this story is fun. So I wanted to share the fun of HEMA. So I think that’s yeah, it’s express now.


Paula: Yeah, it totally is. It totally is. And hopefully if people do want to connect with you, for example, on LinkedIn, are you happy for us to make sure to connect you?


Karlijn: Of course, because uh,  also you ask me like how do you get updated? And I think it’s more on a personal level than a lot of stories. It’s just the stories from other people, the struggle they have that’s the best way to to keep updating in the loyalty space.


Paula: For sure. Yes, well, it’s the reason we do this show is, you know, Karlijn, and it’s also the reason that I think thankfully some of the loyalty conferences are coming back around the world so we can all start to spend more time together and hopefully you and I will get to to connect at some point at some events. Right. So wonderful. OK, well, listen, with that said, I really enjoyed learning all about HEMA. It’s a very impressive brand, a very impressive story. And as it says, definitely some new food for thought. So with that, Karlijn van den Berg, Loyalty, and CRM Manager at HEMA, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty. 


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