#98: Innovative Technology Driving Loyalty - Whatsapp, Voice Marketing & Payment-led Loyalty

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.

PAULA: Hello, and welcome to episode 98 of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: And today, I’m delighted to be sitting in my studio together with my guest, Lisa Brightwell, Managing Director at Bright Insights Consulting, a boutique loyalty consulting firm here in the UAE.

PAULA: Now Lisa and her team specialize in all aspects of loyalty strategy, loyalty operations, but particularly what we’re talking about today is innovative ideas and exciting technologies that loyalty program owners around the world can really think about in terms of the next phase of their strategy development.

PAULA: Lisa has an extraordinary career that spans Marriott International, Jumeirah Group and EMAR Hospitality.

PAULA: So she really does have extraordinary credentials.

PAULA: But for me, when I first met Lisa, it really was her passion for new ideas and creating wow customer experiences that really blew me away.

PAULA: Lisa and I talk about new concepts, such as using WhatsApp as a messaging platform or the idea of voice assistance as a new audio concept that we have yet to seen executed here in this region to build customer connections.

PAULA: We also talk about my favourite loyalty technology, which is card linking, something that has been delivered with extraordinary success here in the UAE.

PAULA: Okay, Lisa, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and tell me, what is your favourite loyalty statistic?

LISA: Thank you, Paula.

LISA: So I found this quite difficult because there’s so many statistics.

LISA: So I chose a statistic that sparked my thought process versus my favourite.

LISA: So, and that was from Accenture.

LISA: And it said that there are 3.3 billion loyalty memberships in the United States.

LISA: It’s a staggering figure.

LISA: If you consider that that’s 10 times the population.

PAULA: Yes.

LISA: And so what it made me think of is, well, first of all, America is a very saturated loyalty market anyway.

PAULA: Of course.

LISA: But how do we, as loyalty marketeers, make sure that we, our programme, if we’re managing or building a programme, can stand out, but not only stand out, how can we use technology to elevate and amplify customer experience?

LISA: And I was in a meeting, actually, last week, and about a new programme, potentially, in the UAE, and somebody said to me, Lisa, does Dubai need another loyalty programme?

LISA: And my response was, yes.

LISA: And no.

LISA: So, yes, this brand needs a loyalty programme, but this brand does not need a loyalty programme like everybody else.

PAULA: Of course.

LISA: And that’s the challenge, you know, in a saturated market, and the fact that there’s loads of loyalty programmes is great because it means that loyalty works.

PAULA: Yes.

LISA: And we know this.

PAULA: Yeah.

LISA: But how can we use technology and how can we use our knowledge to make sure, as loyalty marketeers, we’re creating a programme that can stand out and really engage?

LISA: And there were two other statistics on this same, it was on Forbes, actually, this article.

LISA: And the first one said that 95% of members want to engage with their loyalty programme in an emerging technology.

LISA: 95%.

PAULA: Oh my goodness.

LISA: And that quote was from Bond, but then Wilbur said that 79% of customers said they would be less likely to enrol in a loyalty programme if they had to download an app.

LISA: And so for me, I mean, I don’t know about you, but my phone is full of loyalty apps.

LISA: And I am starting to get a bit annoyed by having to download.

LISA: Because it doesn’t mean I don’t want to be a loyalty customer.

LISA: I just don’t want to download the app.

LISA: And I think we need to, the industry needs to really start considering.

LISA: Loyalty is a strategy, it’s not an app.

LISA: And so how do we take everything we know and create loyalty programmes that can basically elevate experience and engage?

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: My goodness, there’s so much in there, Lisa.

PAULA: But first and foremost, you have incredible experience in the UAE and we’ll make sure to talk through all of that in terms of your career and credentials.

PAULA: Your name is extremely well-known.

PAULA: I can’t believe it’s taken me this long to actually meet you.

PAULA: I definitely think we need to link to that Forbes article, so we’ll make sure to link to that in the show notes.

PAULA: And I just want to pick up, I suppose, first of all on the downloading an app piece.

PAULA: Because I think you’re totally right.

PAULA: I think as consumers, we’re all a bit jaded with everybody wanting our attention.

PAULA: And I think it’s great when some brands can just maybe add a loyalty layer, for example, into their core app.

PAULA: But also I think that there’s lots of markets where you can’t even ask somebody to download an app because they mightn’t have a high enough resolution on their phone.

PAULA: So we’re quite lucky.

PAULA: We probably have quite cool phones, quite high end, quite recent.

PAULA: But honestly, I think it’s just a dead strategy.

LISA: Agreed.

PAULA: And the cost of getting people to download your app, I think just the acquisition cost Absolutely.

PAULA: is extraordinary.

PAULA: So, and I guess we can’t just skip over the big starting statistic, 3.3 billion loyalty memberships.

LISA: In the US, it was staggering.

PAULA: Oh my god, wow.

LISA: It’s staggering.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

LISA: But you’re right.

LISA: And I think, you know, I’m less likely to want to download an app now.

LISA: Exactly what you say.

LISA: What about other markets where it’s more difficult, but also the cost of apps these days.

LISA: You know, it’s not cheap to create a very engaging app.

LISA: And so, and like you say, the acquisition costs to get people to download.

LISA: So what if there are other ways that you can create engagement without having to spend all that money on an app?

LISA: What if you’ve reinvested that money in other ways?

LISA: And I think that’s where the likes of things like WhatsApp are playing like a really interesting role in the evolution of interface between the business and the consumer, but also it’s just a very interesting space.

LISA: There are two billion WhatsApp users worldwide.

PAULA: My goodness, yeah.

LISA: And 180 countries using it in 60 languages and 100 billion messages sent daily.

LISA: Daily, I mean, it’s staggering.

LISA: That’s staggering as well.

LISA: Conversely, on SMS, you’ve got 23 billion.

PAULA: Oh my goodness.

LISA: And so, and yet all loyalty programs use SMS and email.

LISA: And so SMS kind of like started to drop in about 2011 and WhatsApp kind of like passed them along the way up, you know, high fives on the way.

LISA: But it’s staggering, the statistics on WhatsApp, but yet we see very little of engagement with marketers or loyalty marketing with WhatsApp as a channel or as an interface.

LISA: And I find that very interesting.

PAULA: And indeed, it’s how we first connected, isn’t it Lisa?

PAULA: So I will give a shout out to Julie LeBlanc, by the way, our mutual friend and contact in the WIN Network, so Women in Incentives Network.

PAULA: And during a conversation on that, Lisa and I talked a lot about WhatsApp and just realised we both see this as like the biggest missed opportunity that we, as loyalty experts, seem to be seeing.

PAULA: And I think where we got to in the conversation, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it feels like, and I think you use these words actually, Lisa, there’s an evolution of the communication and there’s an opportunity to differentiate, particularly with the emotional loyalty, because I think we all have the transactional stuff down pat, so we can give you points, prizes, whatever you want, but actually connect with somebody.

PAULA: And my favourite example, and I’ve often said this, so WhatsApp is my favourite messaging platform.

PAULA: And when it is, for example, somebody’s birthday, like obviously personally, I won’t just send a WhatsApp, I’ll actually send a video.

PAULA: Or I’ll send a voice note.

PAULA: Or if I’m afraid there’s going to be complexity or communication, I suppose elevate my communication to eliminate the risk of confusion.

PAULA: And I think that’s what we’re seeing WhatsApp has a potential to do.

LISA: Absolutely, I mean, and plus don’t forget, on WhatsApp you’ve got an open rate of 98% as well.

LISA: Versus an SMS or an email, which if you’re lucky, if you get 20%.

PAULA: Totally.

LISA: But you are able to send rich media on WhatsApp.

LISA: So you are able to have the exchange of voice notes, like you say, or happy birthday, video and other content.

LISA: And it’s a two-way dialogue WhatsApp.

LISA: It’s unlike SMS, which is a one-way shot-out.

LISA: WhatsApp is a two-way conversation.

LISA: And the minute you have two-way conversations with people, you’re able to build a relationship.

LISA: And the whole notion of voice, voice is able to convey subtleties that text cannot.

LISA: Emotion, tone, it’s natural, it’s normal, and we all do it every day.

LISA: So the ability to use WhatsApp as a channel to merge kind of voice through the communication is brilliant, and we’re just not doing it yet.

LISA: I mean, Facebook have a stat that says 79% of their customers are more connected to brand if they can message with them via chat.

LISA: That’s a big statistic from Facebook as well.

LISA: 79%.

PAULA: Yeah.

LISA: And I think as well because WhatsApp is fast and it’s convenient, and I think when you’re dealing with customer support and it’s fast and it’s convenient, you get a better customer experience, and then for elevated customer satisfaction, and then elevated customer satisfaction means happy customer.

LISA: And it has, not only has the emotional side, it has the ability to have a better customer experience.

LISA: So all these factors, I mean, I could go on as you know.

LISA: There’s so many factors to what makes WhatsApp really interesting for me and why people are not putting that correlation together yet.

LISA: But imagine in loyalty.

LISA: So imagine a hotel, I have a loyalty program, I can go on WhatsApp and I can put a voice note and say, what’s my points balance?

LISA: You connect WhatsApp to the loyalty management system or any other CRM that you like, therefore you can make the WhatsApp more contextual and more personal to that individual.

LISA: And can I make a restaurant booking?

LISA: I’ve got a thousand points, what can I redeem for?

LISA: And I can be multitasking while doing that.

LISA: I can be walking to work or whatever.

LISA: Oh, how many points have I got?

LISA: Let me just do a voice note and check with WhatsApp.

LISA: And so, and to your point of like the birthday message, imagine I’m a hotel chain and my top customer’s birthday.

LISA: Well, the GM could send a voice note.

LISA: Next time you’re in the hotel, let me know, I’ll take you for a drink to celebrate.

LISA: It’s like beyond personal.

LISA: It kind of goes even deeper than that.

PAULA: Yeah.

LISA: And it’s so easy.

PAULA: Yeah.

LISA: It’s so easy to do.

PAULA: Well, that’s, I think, the important conversation we need to have is how easy is it?

LISA: Yes.

PAULA: How scary is it?

PAULA: How expensive is it?

PAULA: Because clearly there are reasons it’s not happening just yet.

LISA: Yes.

PAULA: And I love what you said about what’s my points balance.

PAULA: Because to me, that’s something that everyone should be doing.

PAULA: It’s a factual piece of information.

PAULA: It’s not even a piece of customer service, as I define it.

PAULA: It’s literally checking a fact.

PAULA: So I cannot understand why I can’t do that with every loyalty programme in the world.

PAULA: But I can’t.

PAULA: Hopefully we’ll get there.

PAULA: But even as you mentioned, hotels.

PAULA: So for example, I have just made a hotel booking.

PAULA: I’m feeling very lucky.

PAULA: We do have some travel capabilities out of here at the moment.

PAULA: So I’m going down to a hotel in Sri Lanka in a couple weeks time.

PAULA: And the first thing that the general manager actually did was he sent me his WhatsApp number.

PAULA: So again, this is not the business solution that we’re about to talk about.

PAULA: This is not being done at scale, but it is being done in the context where he wants me to have a great experience and I’m extremely nervous to be travelling at this time.

PAULA: So the fact I immediately said it to my husband going, we have a WhatsApp for the general manager.

PAULA: He was blown away.

LISA: And you’re telling me that story.

PAULA: Totally.

LISA: And you were affected emotionally by that in so far as you felt, wow, this is nice.

LISA: And that emotion you have, and you’re telling me.

LISA: I mean, it’s simple marketing.

PAULA: Absolutely, exactly Lisa.

PAULA: So it’s not complicated, as we said, certainly in the one-to-one context.

PAULA: So I guess what I think you have that I don’t have is a sense of how does a business adopt WhatsApp?

PAULA: Because I know you need a different type of account.

PAULA: So you might talk us through what’s required there.

PAULA: Any alarm bells that we would need to be thinking about.

PAULA: And just to suppose the capabilities, because what I think the bad experiences have been, and I think we talked about this before is, sometimes there’s just an automated chat bot.

PAULA: And that can also destroy a relationship.

PAULA: And I often rant about my banking app because it has a very nasty chat bot that I don’t get on very well with.

PAULA: So talk us through what’s involved.

PAULA: Let’s say I have a loyalty programme.

PAULA: Let’s say I’m an airline.

PAULA: What could I do with WhatsApp as an example?

LISA: And I think you’re absolutely right to ask that question because it can go horribly wrong.

PAULA: Okay, let’s admit that.

LISA: Let’s be honest.

PAULA: We can prepare.

LISA: Yeah, I mean, there are five million businesses now using WhatsApp for business, but you have to be very careful the way you structure it.

LISA: And as you rightly say, there are a couple of ways to interact on WhatsApp.

LISA: You’ve got your chatbots, which are your automated response by artificial intelligence, where they analyse natural language processing and natural language understanding, NLP, NLU, and they understand the context of what you’re saying to them, and then they will reply a message.

LISA: And that’s like a chatbot via messaging platform.

LISA: And then you’ve got the WhatsApps where you can direct the chat to a live agent.

LISA: So someone will be sitting behind a desk and they will reply.

LISA: Both in themselves have challenges.

LISA: As you rightly say with a chatbot, if you haven’t set it up properly, if you haven’t loaded the right amount of intents, as we call them, the kind of questions, in the different varieties of manners that that question could be asked, I could ask, hey, points balance.

LISA: And the chatbot doesn’t understand what I’ve asked for and just doesn’t reply or comes back, sorry, it does not understand that.

PAULA: Oh my God.

LISA: And you’re gonna-

PAULA: How frustrating.

LISA: Yeah, spiral downwards, big crash at the end.

LISA: There’s no way of getting out of that.

LISA: And sadly, I think this is where the hesitation is coming from on WhatsApp, is that a lot of businesses have done it, but maybe not done it perfectly well.

LISA: And the customer experience goes down, not up, because they haven’t managed the chatbot side of things effectively.

LISA: And conversely on the live agent side, I’ve also seen that done quite badly.

LISA: Insofar as you’ve got a live agent sitting behind a desk waiting for a chat, they pop to the bathroom.

LISA: And we just talked about…

PAULA: Such the simple things.

LISA: But we talk about how people like WhatsApp because it’s convenient and fast, right?

LISA: So you send a WhatsApp to a business and the live agent that’s answering the query has popped to the bathroom and it takes seven to eight minutes to reply.

LISA: Then you’ve lost them there as well.

LISA: So for me, the sweet spot’s in the middle.

LISA: Okay.

LISA: And how you structure this needs to be a combination of AI, artificial intelligence, chat bot with live agent.

LISA: And if something hasn’t been answered, you can trigger the systems to send to a WhatsApp group, to a live agent or the bot to answer.

LISA: And so not only do you have to be very careful in the structure of the bot with all the intents, making sure you’re training a bot every day, also that you are putting fail safes in there.

LISA: So if it doesn’t get answered, what’s the escalation?

LISA: Where does that go?

LISA: And I think for those reasons we’ve talked about is why I think a lot of people are hesitant on it, which is understandable.

LISA: And I think, but this space is evolving.

LISA: And in terms of how it works, very easy.

LISA: WhatsApp are very protective over who they give access to their API because they want to maintain the security aspect of WhatsApp, which is what we all love about it.

LISA: We don’t get spammed.

LISA: We get no marketing messaging on it.

LISA: And so there’s only about 50 companies worldwide or 50 plus, I think for 55 or something like that, that are business solution providers for WhatsApp who can provide the API to connect with WhatsApp directly.

LISA: And then you also need like a front end interface.

LISA: So you’ll have your connector, your business solution provider that will connect you to the API of WhatsApp.

LISA: And then you’ll need your front end interface.

LISA: And that front end interface will be your system that allows you to message, but also could be your chat bot, could also be your live agent, login.

LISA: A lot of these companies, there’s thousands of companies that are doing this.

LISA: And a lot of them have integrated solutions that have all of these elements in it.

LISA: And so quite simple, you’ve fed out some forms on with Facebook, with WhatsApp, to get your WhatsApp for business secured.

LISA: And you get a little green tick on the top of your WhatsApp to show that it’s a business account.

PAULA: Okay, I did not know that.

LISA: So if you get WhatsApps from businesses and you do not see the green tick, it’s actually not a WhatsApp for business account.

PAULA: Oh my goodness.

LISA: And that’s not approved by WhatsApp.

LISA: Yeah.

LISA: So once you’ve done that, you’ve integrated with WhatsApp and you’ve got your front end solution or interface or however you want to integrate or however you want to use your WhatsApp channel.

LISA: Sure, because not everybody wants a bot, not everybody wants live agent.

LISA: Then you’re good to go.

LISA: So it’s quite easy relatively to set up.

LISA: And in terms of rules and regulations on WhatsApp, you just can’t send messages on WhatsApp, like hey, promotion today, 50% off restaurant.

LISA: You just can’t do that.

LISA: And that’s what I love about WhatsApp is they are keeping it protected that way so that it maintains the integrity for us as users.

LISA: But there are loads of ways to manage that and use WhatsApp for customer service, engagement and sales marketing.

LISA: So if a customer engages with you, so I’ve gone on to the WhatsApp and I’ve said hello, the minute me as a customer has engaged with the business account, I have 24 hours as a business to engage with my customer and I can send the messages as I like.

LISA: Because the customer has engaged, I haven’t sent to the customer.

PAULA: So as long as the user initiates the connection, the brand can essentially send anything.

LISA: Well, within reason.

LISA: I’m sure.

LISA: So there’s a very clever way to do it.

LISA: So for example, at an airline, at the check-in desk, you could have an NFC tag or something that you could tap your phone on, it opens up WhatsApp and it’s got pre-typed in there, the text hello.

LISA: And then you press send.

LISA: So when you press send, you’ve initiated dialogue.

LISA: So the airline would say, oh, hi Lisa, thank you for checking in with us today.

LISA: Is there anything I can help you with?

LISA: Click yes, click one for yes, two for no.

LISA: And so you control the dialogue with a series of questions that navigate the consumer to something that they want to engage with.

LISA: So, and that could be offers.

LISA: So if you say, would you like to receive special offer today?

LISA: If you say yes, then you’re allowed to send.

LISA: But you just can’t broadcast promotional messaging.

LISA: But you can guide, there are clever ways to guide the way so it’s not intrusive and it’s customer led.

LISA: But you can broadcast communications on Whatsapps.

LISA: And they’re called template messages.

LISA: And template messages have to be approved by Whatsapp.

LISA: And often they’re used for service.

LISA: So maybe you’ve booked a reservation at a restaurant and you’ve given approval to be communicated via Whatsapp.

LISA: So you can say, hi Paula, thank you for your reservation at the rib room, here’s your reservation number.

LISA: Would you like us to do anything else for you?

LISA: So again, that template message is approved by Whatsapp.

LISA: It’s happened as a result of a transaction.

LISA: But then at the bottom of that, you can say, Paula, would you like me, would you like anything else I can help you with, yes or no?

LISA: And then you can, and then as soon as you stimulate that dialogue, it becomes what they call a session message.

LISA: So there are rules, and I’m talking very top level here of the rules, but there are rules, but providing you can, and to be honest, it safeguards you and the customer for not wanting to get spammed anyway.

LISA: And you engage with it the way that you want to.

LISA: And the business is able to engage with you and have a two-way dialogue.

LISA: You’re able to create this connection with the brand, and it’s on your terms, on something that you use every day anyway.

PAULA: For sure.

LISA: I mean, I use mine three to five hours a day.

LISA: It’s really embarrassing, actually, but that’s my stat.

PAULA: I think I’m officially addicted to WhatsApp, Lisa, so I don’t need any convincing.

PAULA: And again, loads on what you’ve said there that I want to pick up on.

PAULA: One, you just reminded me, actually, that when this pandemic started last year, the default communication platform that was chosen by the World Health Organisation was WhatsApp.

LISA: Interesting.

PAULA: Which really, really impressed me.

PAULA: And again, I’ll put it in the show notes there just to make sure that anybody who wants to just test something that, again, a global organisation, which requires things like scale, accuracy, it’s just a very nice interface.

PAULA: And again, I think it’s purely chatbot led because obviously they’re not getting into anything individual.

PAULA: But it really just shows that it is, to me, the platform of the future.

PAULA: And I think you’ve proven that.

PAULA: I love the balance between the AI and the live agent.

PAULA: And I also love the fact that you talk about that there are a limited number of companies that WhatsApp have opened up their API to.

PAULA: And for me, when we’re thinking about the audience listening to this show, for me, what I would be saying is to make sure to connect with somebody like you.

PAULA: And again, we’ll make sure they can find you.

PAULA: But I, for one, would not want to be a loyalty director figuring this stuff out on my own when I know somebody like you has been down this road before.

PAULA: So I do think the expertise is invaluable.

PAULA: And hopefully more and more of your clients are starting to pick up on it.

LISA: I would love that.

LISA: And you know, part of what we do at Bright Insights is really looking at technologies that can amplify and really add value to what everybody does already.

LISA: So we really look at unique technologies.

LISA: That’s what we look for.

LISA: That’s what we’re looking for.

LISA: But it’s funny, you know, and I know we had this conversation is that I have pitched this kind of concept of utilising WhatsApp to a couple of big groups within the UAE.

LISA: But sadly, probably for the reasons we talked about before, they haven’t decided to adopt.

LISA: But I think it is coming.

LISA: And I think maybe I’m at the beginning of that, hopefully.

LISA: I think you are.

LISA: And I hope that, you know, over time people can see the value.

LISA: And you asked the question before about the cost, because I think that’s gonna change people’s minds dramatically.

LISA: It used to be a bit more expensive than it is now.

LISA: And now, because of the so many companies that are providing that front-end interface layer, are coming on the market with competing products, it is so inexpensive to do this, Paula.

LISA: I was trying to look at some numbers, to try and give you some indications.

LISA: And I was like, well, okay, so it really depends how deep you wanna go.

LISA: You know, do you want translation?

LISA: Do you want the AI part?

LISA: Do you want the bot?

LISA: Do you want the live agent?

LISA: Do you want the director?

LISA: So it could be really big or really small.

LISA: But if you go full Monty and you go all out there, I want all singing and all dancing, set up-wise, you’re looking at like $25,000.

LISA: So it’s not expensive.

LISA: And especially if you go back to our app conversation and you think about how much people spend on apps, it’s beyond me.

PAULA: Totally.

LISA: When, you know, I’d love to see brands trial and error in this.

LISA: So if they’re not sure about it, but wanna try it, you know, it’s $25,000, I get right now, it could be a lot for people, but in the scheme of marketing budgets it’s probably not that much.

LISA: Let’s try it with a group of your customers, you know.

LISA: Let’s try it with, if it’s a hotel group, let’s try it with one hotel.

LISA: Let’s just see the response rate, because I think the other factor to that is how willing customers are to engage with it as well.

LISA: But I’d love to, I’d love someone to jump on it and try it.

LISA: For sure.

LISA: Because I think they would be the pioneer in that.

LISA: And it would be so interesting to see the engagement from a loyalty standpoint.

PAULA: Totally.

PAULA: And if they do, I will promise now I’ll bring them on the show and do an interview.

PAULA: So we’ll get them a bit of kudos for that as well.

PAULA: But I think you’re right, Lisa, it will position them in customer’s minds as an innovative brand.

LISA: Yes.

PAULA: And KLM, I’m sure you know, many years ago, as in I’m going to say three years ago, started with WhatsApp as the first airline in the world.

PAULA: And for me, I had booked a ticket and immediately the ticket came through by WhatsApp.

LISA: Amazing.

PAULA: And I was blown away, like literally blown away.

PAULA: So again, I think you’re right.

PAULA: You are at the beginning of this journey.

PAULA: You’re here to hold the brand’s hand, coach them along.

PAULA: And I know you told me as well, last time we spoke that you’ve scoured the world, you’ve looked at the technology platforms and you’ve chosen the best one that you believe.

PAULA: So you’ve kind of tested it up to your own standards, which I know are super high for your own kind of career background.

PAULA: So I think it’s there to be done.

PAULA: It’s there to be taken.

PAULA: And somebody can just do an incredible job with it.

LISA: Let’s see, let’s hope.

PAULA: So that’s our WhatsApp pitch.

PAULA: I’ve been dying to have that conversation for such a long time.

PAULA: And I think listeners will probably know as well, Lisa, just in general, anything to do with voice.

PAULA: I have been totally converted to the world of voice, as you won’t be surprised.

PAULA: In fact, I think this is episode 102 or something like that of the podcast.

PAULA: Also video.

PAULA: So again, I have a guest coming on in a couple of weeks talking about video communication.

PAULA: And there’s things like Clubhouse.

PAULA: Now, that’s the one I’m aware of, but I think you’ve done even more homework than me, Lisa.

PAULA: So tell us all of the other voice, video and communication options out there.

LISA: Oh, you know, I think we bonded over the voice thing.

LISA: I absolutely love the notion of voice marketing.

LISA: And I’ve been passionate about it for, not marketing per se, but passionate about the power of the voice for a long time.

LISA: And I think the rise in popularity of voice recently has been the convergence between consumer preference and technological advancements.

LISA: That’s kind of collided.

LISA: But 60% of people using voice now only started last year.

LISA: The speed of this is going so fast.

LISA: I also read a stat that 50% of all search in the US is voice now.

LISA: Yes, yeah.

LISA: And voice is the way that the customer engages with the brand, but also the way the brand engages with the customer.

LISA: But voice is easy.

LISA: It’s natural, the tone is easy to understand, the emotion, we talked about this with WhatsApp as well.

LISA: And it’s more personal.

LISA: But what I love most about it is that you can really listen.

LISA: And you’re doing podcasts, you know, all about this.

LISA: I did a training about 10 years ago with a gentleman called Graham Fox.

LISA: I don’t know if he’s still in the market, but 10 years ago, I did a presentation training about how to make effective presentations.

LISA: And when I went into it, I thought it was all about PowerPoint.

LISA: I’m gonna learn about how to make it all funky and fizzy and everyone’s gonna love it.

LISA: And he basically put a black screen on the slide and said, presentations are all about the power of your voice.

LISA: Why, oh why, are people putting stuff on PowerPoints which takes the attention away from what you’re trying to communicate through your voice?

LISA: So he taught us in this presentation training to put a black screen on the slide and talk to the audience and only take the black screen off if you wanted to show a picture or something to demonstrate a point.

LISA: And so ever since then, I’ve hated PowerPoint and have been very focused.

PAULA: You and most of the corporate world I think Lisa, absolutely.

LISA: But I focus on the voice and what I’m saying because then people listen.

PAULA: Yes, they do.

LISA: And so if you think about it in what you do in podcasts or you think about it in voice marketing, people can also do it by multitasking.

PAULA: Yes.

LISA: I play your podcast in the office whilst we’re working so the team can listen.

LISA: I listen to podcasts while driving.

LISA: Yes.

LISA: People can do it by jogging, by running.

PAULA: Yeah.

LISA: So, there’s a massive power in voice that people are now starting to see.

LISA: And let’s face it, I think COVID probably amplified that with the fact that people have massive screen fatigue.

LISA: But you can go for a run and listen.

LISA: I mean, the voice is very powerful.

LISA: And I think voice marketing is now letting marketeers get much closer to their customers.

LISA: And I’ve seen some fantastic examples.

LISA: I read an article in South Korea about Starbucks.

LISA: You can send a voice note to Starbucks via certain mediums for your coffee and pay for it on voice.

LISA: You walk in, you pick up your coffee and you walk out.

LISA: You’re multitasking on steroids there.

LISA: But you’re using voice.

LISA: And similarly with Esteé Lauder, they’ve done some voice marketing whereby you have to request for these little voice notes and the voice notes will tell you, don’t forget to put your night cream on and pat around the eyes or whatever they’re telling you.

LISA: I don’t know what they’re telling you, but effectively they’re giving you advice and reminders of making sure doing your skincare regime.

LISA: And it’s all through the power of the voice.

LISA: And it just, I just love the idea of it.

LISA: It opens up a whole new door of opportunities.

LISA: And now social media has jumped on this.

LISA: And this voice social media phenomenon and Clubhouse.

LISA: I mean, it is, everybody is talking about Clubhouse.

LISA: And for me, there is a distinction between voice marketing and what Clubhouse and what other social, voice social media channels do.

LISA: And WhatsApp and everything.

LISA: It’s less about convenience there.

LISA: It’s more about access.

PAULA: Yeah, okay.

LISA: It’s more about having access to people and content that you would never have had ordinarily.

LISA: Of course, yeah.

LISA: And for me, that’s so powerful.

LISA: You know very well Elon Musk came on Clubhouse, gave it a good plug there.

LISA: But also, how would I get access to Elon Musk and listen to unscripted, unscheduled content by someone like him?

LISA: This is the only way to do it.

LISA: And it’s kind of completely the change, the dynamics, because normally this content is controlled by media.

PAULA: Yes, of course.

LISA: But now it’s accessible for the likes of me.

LISA: And I can knowledge seek on these channels.

LISA: I can look for things I’m interested for.

LISA: And then it’s like podcasts meets social media.

LISA: And it’s so fascinating.

LISA: But what’s more fascinating to me is how brands are gonna embrace this.

PAULA: Totally.

LISA: Because you can have a room on Clubhouse.

PAULA: Yes.

LISA: But if you’re a brand, and you’re a clothing brand, for example.

LISA: And normally you market your product by your clothes, because I choose clothes because of how I want them to look.

PAULA: Of course.

LISA: How do you communicate your brand through voice channels?

PAULA: Yeah.

LISA: And so you have to switch, there’s a paradigm switch here, to amplifying what brand voice is about, but also communicating value.

LISA: What your values are.

PAULA: Yes.

LISA: And then what happens is, is people can emotionally connect to that value.

PAULA: Yeah.

LISA: So I’m so excited to see what people are going to do in these spaces.

PAULA: For sure.

LISA: So not only on social, but also voice marketing in general, and the power of the voice and the emotional connection.

LISA: But how’s everyone going to play it?

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And it’s an extraordinary, and I’m going to use the word explosive sector.

PAULA: And I think we’re both totally aligned on that.

PAULA: For me, again, I don’t know nearly enough.

PAULA: For example, when you talk about Esteé Lauder, that sounds like an Alexa skill.

LISA: Yes, correct.

PAULA: I built an Alexa skill and I launched it.

PAULA: I still can’t access the thing.

PAULA: But anyway, I’m playing, let’s say, just for personal interest.

PAULA: So I think the whole voice assistance piece might be what you were saying in terms of the explosion of users in the last 12 months.

LISA: Yes, correct.

PAULA: And I know there’s incredible statistics around as soon as people try it, they’re probably sceptical in the beginning, but once you’ve tried it, I think there’s a huge conversion.

LISA: Absolutely.

PAULA: So just the comfort levels, and I know friends of mine have talked about their parents using it, for example, so who may be elderly, don’t want to engage even with the mobile phone, use a voice assistant because it’s natural.

LISA: Yes, absolutely.

PAULA: So I think the Alexa thing, and any, I suppose, voice assistant, Google, etc.

PAULA: I’m not sure how advanced we are in this part of the world.

PAULA: We’ll probably get there.

PAULA: You’ve reminded me, as well, in London.

PAULA: I know there’s voice agencies.

PAULA: So, for example, more mature markets, let’s say, here than here are starting to have specialists to, again, talk about what’s your brand strategy on Clubhouse, to your point.

PAULA: What’s your brand strategy on a voice assistant?

PAULA: And I think the one that commercially everyone will get excited about is voice search.

PAULA: So certainly what I’ve heard and seen is, in 10 years’ time, nobody’s going to be going and tapping on the screen on their phone.

PAULA: You’re literally going to say, actually, you know, tell me my points balance or whatever it is.

PAULA: So, yeah, I think the e-commerce applications are just mind-blowing.

LISA: And it’s going to evolve, you know.

LISA: There are so many platforms.

LISA: Clubhouse is one that’s got a lot of PR because of, you know, you couldn’t get in, you know.

LISA: You had to be invited.

LISA: Oh, I know.

PAULA: The exclusivity piece does it super well.

LISA: And as soon as that happened, I was like, I want in.

LISA: How do I get in?

LISA: But, you know, there’s Hear Me Out.

LISA: There’s Discord.

LISA: Discord has been really successful the last couple of years on gaming.

LISA: Twitter Spaces is coming.

LISA: And Facebook is rumoured to be doing something.

LISA: So there’s going to be a whole shift in terms of opportunities for brands to engage on these type of social platforms.

LISA: So Clubhouse getting in there super early has created these dialogues with these voice agencies.

LISA: Okay, what’s your Clubhouse strategy?

LISA: But it’s soon going to be, what’s your voice strategy in social?

LISA: And kind of figuring that out.

LISA: And I think that’s super exciting.

LISA: And I love the way it creates a much more personal relationship, because you know, you’ve always done brand guidelines in my past, and you’ve got tone of voice, and you’ve got brand, you know, type, font type and what have you.

LISA: But voice is going to take the number one spot.

LISA: And how amazing is that?

LISA: How amazing is that?

LISA: And so all of a sudden, your tone is very important, because I think it’s always the thing that people last.

LISA: Whereas it’s the most important, how you present yourself, and then the values that come behind that, and how you execute that.

LISA: So I’m really excited, and I’d love to see, because obviously, loyalty marketing is my passion.

LISA: I’d love to see how we can, as a community in the loyalty space, embrace this, because we want that personal relationship with our customers more so than anybody.

LISA: And we want to have that personalised relationship, and that’s a constant battle in loyalty anyway.

LISA: So how do we jump on this train and really embrace it, and how do we make this part of the strategy?

PAULA: Yeah, and you’ve reminded me of another example.

PAULA: And again, loyalty can mean so many different things.

PAULA: To me, in the context of this show, it’s the emotion of loyalty, powered by loyalty programmes usually, but not always.

PAULA: And a really interesting case study for me was Ryanair, which is an Irish airline, so I’m not sure everybody listening will know it, but it’s in a very effective, efficient, low-cost carrier that has zero loyalty programme.

PAULA: However, it does have a podcast.

PAULA: So in my mind, thinking about the airlines, particularly in this part of the world, they mightn’t be ready for an Alexa strategy or a Clubhouse strategy, for example, but they could just launch a podcast.

PAULA: They could literally be saying, you know, here’s Paula, she’s going to Sri Lanka, let’s have a chat about that experience and build again the inspiration around travel, which then brings the emotion of loyalty, which again is completely different to, you know, their structured loyalty programme.

LISA: Absolutely.

PAULA: So I just think there are simple ways to do it.

PAULA: We don’t need to overcomplicate things, but I think the key thing is, you know, the human voice is the oldest form of communication and let’s just share it.

LISA: Yeah, absolutely, I agree.

PAULA: Wonderful.

LISA: Let’s see what happens.

PAULA: So the other big thing I know we’re both passionate about, Lisa, is seamlessness, removing friction and really making things super easy for customers and again, building loyalty as a result.

PAULA: So tell me, what are your favourite things to recommend to a brand?

PAULA: Now, if you had a blank sheet of paper and let’s say a bottomless budget, what would you be if you were launching the next big thing in the loyalty world in any country?

PAULA: What would you be recommending?

LISA: So I definitely feel that we need to make programmes more simple and we need to get rid of some of this friction.

LISA: I think we have really moved past pin codes, bar codes, scanners, plastic cards, get my phone out, give this coat.

LISA: It really does frustrate me when I go into a store and they say, can you give me your plastic card?

LISA: I’m like, oh my god, are we really still doing that?

LISA: Because there’s no need.

LISA: And one of the core things you need to think about when creating a loyalty programme is how do we keep it simple?

LISA: And now we’ve done a lot of work in market with card link technology.

LISA: Because I love it for its simple, frictionless nature.

LISA: And we’ve done, and Etihad and Aldar have both launched card link technology in this region.

LISA: I’m very proud of them because it’s fantastic.

LISA: And let me just explain.

LISA: So card link technology.

PAULA: So that was exactly my first question.

PAULA: So just for anybody who hasn’t heard about card linking, what is it in its simplest form?

LISA: So essentially you can link a payment card, a Visa credit or debit card, or MasterCard or MX and whatever region you’re in, into your loyalty profile.

LISA: So say you have an app or a website.

LISA: However you want to link that card to your loyalty account.

LISA: Once that card is linked one time, and usually you can link up to five cards.

LISA: So if you have multiple cards in your wallet, you can link more.

LISA: As soon as that card is linked against your loyalty profile, you can use that linked card to transact at participating locations.

LISA: And what that means is if I go into a location that’s issuing points to me as a customer, I do not have to identify myself.

LISA: I do not have to provide a card, a PIN code, a mobile phone.

LISA: The person behind the desk does not even need to know I’m a loyalty customer.

LISA: I simply pay with that registered credit or debit card in the store, and I will real time earn points for that transaction.

LISA: And what I love about it is the frictionless nature of it, but what I also love about it is the ability that you can also burn, so redeem seamlessly as well.

LISA: So say I go into a store and the store is participating, I pay with my registered credit or debit card, I walk out of the store, and I can be prompted to say, would you like to earn points for that transaction, or would you like to redeem points for that transaction?

LISA: And if I click redeem, I get cash back onto my credit card, again seamlessly.

LISA: So no redemption vouchers, no reconciliation.

LISA: There’s no reconciliation with the merchant because they’ve had their full payment from the credit card.

LISA: Because you’ve paid full price in the store, and all we’re doing is cash back in the credit card post the transaction.

LISA: And so, Etihad did a great job of launching this in summer, particularly during a pandemic.

LISA: You know, they really, by using CardLink technology with their programme, there was an amazing amount of engagement by not flying.

LISA: And people couldn’t fly, right?

LISA: So not only were people earning currency in everyday transactions, because we have about 700 plus merchants signed up to their Miles on the Go programme.

LISA: Which is, Miles on the Go, there’s 700 merchants.

LISA: When you register your credit or debit card and you shop with any of those merchants, you can earn and burn Etihad guest miles.

PAULA: And they’re physical merchants in shopping centres?

LISA: Yes, shopping malls.

LISA: Namely, all the Aldar shopping malls in Abu Dhabi.

PAULA: Which thankfully are open for business.

LISA: But what’s great about it is not only are you engaging because you’re engaging with the currency whilst not flying, is that the redemption side of things, I think we were all surprised by how many people were redeeming their miles on the spot, offline.

LISA: Because they couldn’t fly, right?

LISA: So even though Etihad guest miles don’t expire now.

LISA: Okay, brilliant.

PAULA: Well done, Etihad.

LISA: However, you know, the flexibility to go, oh, car for, it’s a bit expensive this week.

LISA: You know what?

LISA: I’m going to just use my miles to pay for it this month.

LISA: And the engagement was fantastic.

LISA: And I think that, because a lot of airlines and a lot of loyalty programs, and I hate the word lifestyle, but I’ll use it, want to make their programs more lifestyle.

LISA: They want to make their programs connected with the individual’s everyday life.

LISA: And so Cardlink Technologies really helped airlines to do this.

LISA: But also the other great part about Cardlink Technologies is that you get the data.

PAULA: Really?

LISA: So me as a customer of the loyalty program, I’m transacting in all these stores.

PAULA: Of course.

LISA: And so you know I’m transacting in all these stores.

LISA: And so obviously we have data, a lot of programs have data on customers, but sometimes it can be very granular.

LISA: I mean, it can be very, sorry, very, you know, very basic.

LISA: Superficial or very granular.

LISA: And if all of a sudden you have data on me and where I’m spending, you know, maybe I eat 10 times a week at Cheesecake Factory, who knows?

LISA: But you know that about me, that you didn’t know that about me before.

PAULA: Okay.

LISA: And yes, okay, co-brand credit cards can give you some level of information.

LISA: But you don’t need to have a co-brand to link your card.

PAULA: Totally.

LISA: So, all of a sudden you get access to a whole lot more data.

LISA: And that enables programmes to really try to personalise a bit better.

LISA: We know that a lot of people have problems with the personalisation of their communications.

LISA: Totally, yeah, yeah.

PAULA: Ongoing challenge.

LISA: Ongoing challenge.

LISA: But imagine if you were able to not only have the data that you have, but also the customer spend data.

LISA: And using that to put them in propensity buckets for segmentation, and have been able to be a bit more contextual with the way that you communicate to them.

LISA: So, not only is the CardLink technology, for me, seamless, frictionless and simple.

LISA: We’ve seen so much engagement with it from the airline side, and including Alda and Stana programme also has CardLink technology.

LISA: But the data that you get from it is great.

LISA: And it eliminates the need for a lot of training and system integration, and all this kind of stuff.

LISA: It’s all eliminated through CardLink.

LISA: So, I’m very passionate about CardLink.

PAULA: And again, it’s another thing we share, Lisa, because I came across CardLinking, I’m going to say, about four years ago, maybe five, just before I came back to the UAE.

PAULA: And my mind was totally blown.

PAULA: So, the simplicity of it, and again, listeners will know, I do a lot of work with convenience retail, you know, even now.

PAULA: And I think it’s probably the last sector to really embrace loyalty, because it was really the retail experience that you really didn’t want to be inconvenienced.

PAULA: But convenience retailers have certainly discovered CardLinking.

PAULA: I hadn’t realised until recently your point about not even having to open an app.

PAULA: So, the point about showing up at a point of sale, regardless of the sector, the one thing we know for sure is going to happen is there’s going to be a payment.

PAULA: Everything else should be optional.

PAULA: And to your point, everything else should and can be eliminated.

PAULA: So, for me as a consumer, I’m kind of going, would everyone just already get this sorted?

LISA: Yeah, and I think some people have concerns about, okay, what about cash transactions?

LISA: But again, COVID has probably amplified no cash.

LISA: Most people have used card.

LISA: And so, as long as you’ve got a plastic card, then you can link your product.

LISA: Now, in this region, at the moment, only Visa is operating their platform.

LISA: I hope the other platforms will come soon, and I’m sure they will.

LISA: I’m pretty sure they’re working on it.

LISA: But globally, a lot of markets, all the platforms, all the schemes, should I say, have the ability to link cards, Visa, MassCard, Amex.

LISA: And again, we’ve worked with a couple of card link suppliers, and really we found one out of Europe that we feel does the most efficient work, job.

LISA: And similarly, I mean, our reputation is on the line in market.

LISA: We provide loyalty strategy and consulting, but we also recommend technology.

LISA: So I need to make sure when I’m recommending someone that it’s good tech.

LISA: And so I feel very confident that we’ve found such a great partner in the card link space to deliver seamless, frictionless, loyalty transaction solutions.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And something I heard about, which I’m sure is part of your solution, but just wanted to check from my own knowledge, one of the big benefits in the retailer I spoke to, who was in Europe in convenience retail, I think in Denmark at the time, but one of the unexpected benefits they noticed was all of a sudden they could facilitate digital receipts, which hadn’t been possible previously.

PAULA: And what they found from the consumer feedback was there was a wow factor, particularly again in a supermarket.

PAULA: Who wants all these bits of paper that we all kind of resent?

PAULA: You know, there’s trees coming down left, right and centre.

PAULA: So is that another benefit that most retailers can expect if they use card linking?

LISA: Probably.

LISA: We haven’t done that yet, but I think it’s a functionality of something we can do.

LISA: But yeah, absolutely.

LISA: I also hate receipts.

LISA: I generally don’t hate them.

LISA: We should be way past that these days.

PAULA: Exactly.

LISA: But yeah, absolutely.

LISA: And I think there’s lots of more involvement in this space as well and the ability to also do marketing on it.

LISA: So certainly from a mall perspective, we can do promotions to help drive visitor management.

LISA: So say, for example, you’ve got a mall program and it’s facilitated by card linked, but you want to drive footfall to the upper floor because it doesn’t get a lot of footfall.

LISA: And from a visitor management perspective, you’re trying to give your tenants a nice, big, even coverage of the flow of visitors.

LISA: I don’t know, I’m making up as I go.

LISA: But you could say, okay, any store that’s on the third floor, there’s double points today.

LISA: Any store that’s on the second floor.

LISA: You could use it.

PAULA: Brilliant.

LISA: And it’s so easy to put a merchant into the platform.

LISA: All you need is the merchant ID of the store.

LISA: And you can pop it in as quick as you can type it into the computer.

LISA: So to load and unload merchants is easy, seamless, simple, but also to be able to facilitate promotions based on category of merchant, where the merchant exists in the mall, basket size.

LISA: I mean, you can…

LISA: All loyalty platforms can do these types of things these days, but how fun is it to play with that within the mall environment and guide visitors around the mall to places where you want them to go.

LISA: So there’s lots of fun things you can do with the technology to try to drive and stimulate behaviour and transactions as well.

PAULA: And I know there’s another term as well I’ve come across, Lisa, which I think is an industry term, a payment industry term, called card on file.

PAULA: And again, it’s something we might explore maybe at a different time.

PAULA: But for me, I do have a Visa card.

PAULA: So if I do that single, adding it to my loyalty profile, as you said, I think the simplicity and stickiness of that customer suddenly is…

PAULA: You know, it’s just extraordinary, you know?

PAULA: It’s like it’s the simplicity and again, moving off the friction.

PAULA: So getting that card on file, I think most retailers really need to get that one step taken by customers and to circle back to the start of our conversation rather than asking people to download new apps every time and all of these kind of things.

PAULA: That’s the one ask I think that makes sense between a brand and a consumer.

PAULA: So from my perspective, the more card linking that can happen, the more excited I will be.

LISA: And it doesn’t have to be on an app.

LISA: If you don’t want an app, you could do it on a website.

LISA: And then it’s that one time.

LISA: And I think one of the concerns, if we also are honest about where there are concerns with card linking, is that people are worried about the security of it.

LISA: I’m putting my card on an app or on a website.

LISA: But these platforms are PCI level one compliant, which is as secure as a bank.

LISA: And so it’s very secure, which is sometimes where we have concerns.

LISA: But yeah, you’re right.

PAULA: All to be done.

LISA: I know.

LISA: Can you imagine?

LISA: A program with WhatsApp, card linking and voice marketing.

PAULA: Okay, we’re going to find one.

PAULA: We’re going to make it happen, I think, between us.

LISA: Maybe make our own one.

PAULA: I think we should.

PAULA: Listen, that’s all of the questions I have from my side, Lisa.

PAULA: Was there anything else that you wanted to mention before we wrap up?

LISA: No, just it’s been a pleasure to kind of share some of my thought processes on these technologies and have a forum to do it.

PAULA: Indeed.

LISA: Thank you so much, Paula.

PAULA: Not at all.

PAULA: And is LinkedIn the best place for people to find you, Lisa?

LISA: Absolutely, yes.

PAULA: So again, we’ll make sure to link to that.

PAULA: But for clarity, Lisa Brightwell, Managing Director at Bright Insights Consulting.

PAULA: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

LISA: Thanks, Paula.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.

PAULA: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.

PAULA: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com, and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.

PAULA: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform.

PAULA: Find Let’s Talk Loyalty and subscribe.

PAULA: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews, and thanks again for supporting the show.