#88: Loyalty Innovation in China with Lagardère Travel Retail

Like many retailers, Lagardere Travel Retail was badly impacted by the global pandemic in 2020, particularly in China where its duty free stores remained open but customers simply couldn’t buy. This episode showcases the incredibly innovative solutions developed by the management team, led by Eudes Fabre.

With 1.8 million customers signed up across their two loyalty programmes, the brand had permission from customers to connect in digital channels, and so they team developed a video commerce strategy on WeChat that has become one of the most successful in China.

Listen to this extraordinary story of how the company’s greatest marketing challenge has resulted in the creation of a whole new revenue stream that has now become a powerful and profitable channel in its own right, powered by its digital loyalty programme.

Show Notes:

1) Lagardere Travel Retail Group

2) Eudes Fabre – Chief Executive Officer – North Asia at Lagardere Travel Retail

3) Adam McCarthy – Chief Information Officer at Lagardere Travel Retail North Asia

Audio Transcript

PAULA: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.

PAULA: Thank you.

PAULA: Hello and welcome to episode 88 of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: And today’s episode is my very first show focused on building loyalty with consumers in mainland China.

PAULA: Lagardère Travel Retail is a company that has been in business for over 160 years and actually operates almost 5,000 stores around the world, mainly in airports and railway stations.

PAULA: I’m joined by Adam McCarthy, Chief Information Officer, and Eudes Fabre, the Chief Executive Officer for Lagardère Travel Retail based in Shanghai.

PAULA: In today’s interview, the gentlemen share their two extraordinary loyalty programs and in particular, the incredibly powerful new strategy they launched as a direct result of the pandemic which affected their business so much last year.

PAULA: So, Eudes Fabre and Adam McCarthy, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: Great stuff.

PAULA: Lovely to chat to you both today.

PAULA: So we’re going to talk through a very exciting concept in loyalty and travel retail particularly.

PAULA: And I think what I’m particularly excited about in today’s show is the level of innovation and, I suppose, the real evolution of the story that you’re going to tell us in terms of your loyalty program and, more interestingly as well, some innovation in terms of video commerce.

PAULA: So, Eudes, you’re the chief executive officer of Lagardère Travel Retail for North Asia.

PAULA: So first and foremost, tell me, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?

EUDES: But I was really impressed by the fact that a lot of travel-oriented businesses, including airlines and hotels, found that during the height of the COVID crisis, which really brought their core business to their knees, they were able to leverage the value of their loyalty programs either directly to continue communicating and selling to their customers through the grounding or indirectly, they were able to leverage that loyalty base financially to borrow against in order to keep their business afloat.

EUDES: And I think that really shows the intrinsic value of these loyalty programs that have been built up over the years and really highlights the fact that loyalty in itself is an asset.

PAULA: It sure is absolutely well said and you’re definitely preaching to the converted here.

PAULA: So we’re all super happy to hear another leading retail figure really advocating for the loyalty concept.

PAULA: So that’s super exciting from my perspective.

PAULA: I’d love you just to explain Lagardère just as a company and really, I suppose, how you got into the loyalty business because I know it’s still a fairly young proposition from your perspective and Adam, obviously, you know, be interested to get your perspective along the way as well in terms of your experience.

PAULA: I know you’ve always said Eudes is the real visionary in terms of this entire concept, but I’m sure operationally, you’ve got plenty of stories to tell us as well.

PAULA: So Eudes, I’d love you just to explain the travel retail business and that you operate and what role loyalty plays within that.

EUDES: Yes, of course, our company, Lagardère Travel Retail, is one of the leaders in retail and travel locations, including airports, of course, but also train stations and tourist sites.

EUDES: Our business covers all segments of travel retail, including duty free and luxury, but also news, convenience, specialty retail, gifts, etc.

EUDES: and food and beverage.

EUDES: So we’re present in over 270 airports worldwide and 750 train stations with a total of almost 5,000 stores.

PAULA: That’s extraordinary.

PAULA: And I saw on your website as well, Eudes, that turnover in 2020 was 2.3 billion euros.

PAULA: So extraordinary business that you guys are operating worldwide.

PAULA: So where did the concept for a loyalty program come, Eudes?

PAULA: I know you have two loyalty programs.

PAULA: So when did you first think actually that’s something that we really should be doing?

EUDES: I think we started in earnest about three years ago, where we realized that a lot of our customers were actually frequent travelers and were coming to the airport at least once a month, for some of them even more frequently.

EUDES: I think that the second reason behind it is our network was growing rapidly.

EUDES: We now have a presence in over 25 airports in mainland China, and of course, we know that if people take the plane from one airport, it means that they’re landing in another and possibly returning from that same airport.

EUDES: So we really saw the opportunity to connect with our customers on their journey, whether it be outbound or inbound, and build an affinity and build the loyalty of these customers who are frequent travelers and frequent shoppers at the airport.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah, fantastic.

PAULA: And Adam, from your perspective, I’m sure you were already a very busy man, making sure all of these stores operate very efficiently from a technology perspective.

PAULA: So what was your initial view, I suppose, of the concept of a loyalty program for the business?

PAULA: Is it something that you were excited about, you understood the potential of, or what was your view at the time?

ADAM: I understood the potential.

ADAM: I felt that it was kind of becoming a requirement, to be honest.

ADAM: So Eudes and I were extremely well aligned.

ADAM: What I didn’t fully anticipate was the complexity that spiraled into place very quickly.

ADAM: And you need to have somebody to keep it streamlined.

ADAM: And I think also, I wasn’t aware of just how quickly you go from, we need a loyalty program to so what we have one.

ADAM: And I think there’s a lot of undifferentiated, probably low yielding in terms of value programs.

ADAM: And if you don’t have someone who’s constantly pushing on how to monetize it and make it actually viable to the members, to the customers, to the business, that was stuff that I didn’t anticipate.

ADAM: But again, thankfully, Eudes and the team has been very good at always keeping strong sponsorship and in a strong commercial focus.

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: Yes.

PAULA: And they are very much magic words, Adam, from my perspective.

PAULA: I’ve always said I’m a very commercial marketeer.

PAULA: So even before I worked in loyalty programs, I never really understood how you could keep spending without being able to track the return.

PAULA: So absolutely critical to make sure we have that commercial perspective.

PAULA: And yes, it’s also just I’m smiling that you acknowledge the complexity, because I think from my perspective, a lot of the time what happens is, you know, people do have perhaps a vision like Eudes and say, great, yeah, a loyalty program will add value to the business, perhaps under invest in terms of, you know, whether it’s the technology or the people or literally, you know, running these programs.

PAULA: And I remember Eudes when we spoke the last time, you told me that not too long ago, the customer database was on a spreadsheet, so, you know, it has taken time to formalize getting it into a structured proposition.

PAULA: So yeah, how was that whole journey in terms of transitioning from nothing to, I think you’ve said you’ve what, over a million members now, is it?

EUDES: You’re right, we started we started very, very basic on indeed for for quite a while at the beginning, we were just using an Excel sheet to compile and keep track of our members on visits and spends on and that we’ve we’ve been through several phases of the program.

EUDES: At first, it was just on, you know, a basic recognition tool.

EUDES: So when people came back, we were able to recognize them.

EUDES: And over time, we were able to personalize the service and also give them recognition for their for their loyalty on after after a year or two, I guess we decided to roll out a more sophisticated software platform to have, you know, the basic features of loyalty, including points earn and burn on tiers, et cetera.

EUDES: But it was still a relatively basic concept on a with on relatively simple software on and really like a relatively I mean, sorry, unimaginative mechanism.

EUDES: But we we went through we went through these these phases.

EUDES: And I think for us, like the biggest accelerator was the COVID crisis, where traffic in our airports dropped quickly and dramatically just about a year ago.

EUDES: And we saw that our loyalty program could be a tool to continue maintaining contact with our customers and continue to do sales, even though they were unable to travel and unable to come to our stores.

EUDES: And I think this time of crisis really opened our eyes to the possibilities.

EUDES: We also saw changes in the market.

EUDES: So instead of just having a loyalty program with points accumulating and people taking their points, but not really making use of them, we made the program evolved in two directions.

EUDES: One, that’s a direction that’s more sales focused, including latching on to the trend of live stream and other online commerce techniques.

EUDES: And the second, which is what I would call social loyalty, where instead of the loyalty program just being a program, it’s more of a club, where members are not only members of all loyalty program, but they also are part of a club of people with similar interests and to make it more interactive and more social.

EUDES: So ultimately, we want people to, of course, through the loyalty program, shop with us and shop with us more often.

EUDES: But we also hope that our customers can interact not only with our team, but also between each other and hopefully even build new friendships, acquaintances, and get more out of shopping beyond just spending, actually having a good time on being part of our program and making new connections.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And Adam, I can see you nodding as well.

PAULA: And I guess what I’m not familiar with is really, I suppose, loyalty in China, just in general.

PAULA: Would you guys say that there is this level of sophistication that I maybe would associate Chinese consumers with being digitally savvy, and that’s global reputation for interacting on WeChat for your entire life.

PAULA: Would you guys say that the same concept of sophistication applies for loyalty concepts as well?

PAULA: Like, I don’t even know what other big loyalty programs in China might be well known or well respected.

EUDES: Chinese consumers are very visually savvy and to spend a lot of time on social networks or on apps on their phone.

EUDES: But I think beyond that, there is now a fusion of shopping and social media like we can’t see in any other market.

EUDES: So whether it be what they call social buying, where people get together to buy a specific item from a specific vendor, or even a live stream, which is a modernized version of the home shopping network, but that’s much more interactive, where people can interact with the host.

EUDES: People can also interact with each other.

EUDES: They can ask questions, comment, make jokes, etc.

EUDES: It’s not only shopping, it’s also entertainment.

EUDES: And I think the loyalty aspect of it comes naturally, because you’re having a good time.

EUDES: You have access to products you like, and you’re doing it at the same time as all these other people who, on some level, share the same interests as you.

EUDES: So it’s not only consumption, it’s also entertainment.

PAULA: Yeah, that’s a really big insight, Eudes, because I often think, you know, the whole online or TV shopping in the past was a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, purely because, well, partly, I suppose, from a professional point of view, I was intrigued as to the sales techniques that were being employed and how compelling I found them.

PAULA: And generally, I really didn’t need the stuff.

PAULA: And I was quite restrained, I will say.

PAULA: I didn’t go too crazy, but I admired the presentation skills and the fact that an entire sales channel could exist in a TV format.

PAULA: And as I was preparing for today, in fact, some of the insights that I came across was exactly as you said, Oud, the TV shopping, I’ll call it, or online shopping in video format is very much more engaging than e-commerce, which just feels so transactional most of the time.

PAULA: But yet it’s much more accessible, particularly in COVID times, than the high street or particularly obviously travel retail.

PAULA: So I do think it’s a genius insight, I’ve seen it called maybe the third way to shop.

PAULA: So I know Adam, you highlighted a couple of big differences in terms of how your format, particularly for Lagardère Travel Retail, the live shopping as distinct from the TV shopping experiences of the past.

PAULA: So how would you distinguish how it’s evolved over the last, I guess it must be 20 years now?

ADAM: Well, I mean, it’s really simple.

ADAM: It’s simply more interactive, it’s faster, it’s more easily consumable.

ADAM: But what I was just thinking about as Eudes was describing the customer difference in China and what you were talking about, I think the overarching theme, whether it’s streaming or not or other aspects of loyalty program is, particularly in China, there’s much more of a sense of an ecosystem.

ADAM: And I think that’s probably more relevant because there’s multiple places where you can stream and buy stuff online, particularly in China.

ADAM: What Eudes really focuses on is quite true, particularly with Chinese customers.

ADAM: They get that the whole thing’s an experience.

ADAM: They understand that, yes, there’s commercial drivers that facilitate that experience, but the social aspect, the engagement.

ADAM: The thing I was thinking about was before COVID, you actually had a couple of customer appreciation dinners for the VIP members.

ADAM: And the very first one was quite small, and that was an in-person private shopping experience.

ADAM: But as the loyalty program grew, I remember the next dinner we had went from, I think it was like maybe 10 people, 15 people at the table.

ADAM: I think the next dinner had at least like 150 or more.

ADAM: And it actually became a really useful networking event.

ADAM: So at Eudes’ point, the program was already being used to add value in terms of the shopping experience to creating engaging customer appreciation.

ADAM: But it also became a useful way, as you had said, for like-minded and similarly disposition people to further connect with each other through a common venue and place.

ADAM: And I think that sort of appreciation of the ecosystem is probably more important.

ADAM: And on the streaming, again, it’s actually quite simple, I’d say.

ADAM: It’s very easy to just in real time, always be able to go to the point in time.

ADAM: I think old TV streaming, you had to wait till a certain hour.

ADAM: If you wanted to buy like hats or jewelry or whatever, you had to wait till 11 o’clock at night and maybe then the good deal didn’t show up fast enough.

ADAM: But in streaming, you’ve got real time, you’ve got the ability to go back, right?

ADAM: You’ve got the ability to engage on other channel, like omni-channel outside of just the stream itself.

ADAM: And I think that high availability, interconnectedness is probably the biggest difference here from the old time.

ADAM: You know, dial someone up on the TV.

PAULA: Yeah, for sure.

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: Yeah, my goodness, so many questions coming to mind.

PAULA: Even the dinners that you mentioned, Adam, I could absolutely imagine particularly high profile shoppers from your VIP program, particularly shopping in luxury boutiques, for example, and connecting them over a dinner.

PAULA: And that’s a very special experience and very aspirational.

PAULA: So I would totally, you know, I could imagine being one of those people that would want to be invited and aspire to join an event like that.

PAULA: And the ecosystem point, Adam, is a very good one as well.

PAULA: Because again, what I’m seeing is happening in China is this understanding, as you said, the entertainment value, the connection and the humanity.

PAULA: So I think we talked before that, you know, QVC was very much a one way thing and you were being sold to the whole time.

PAULA: And as I said, I would enjoy that experience.

PAULA: But I think consumers in this day and age and maybe China is more advanced, but I’m not sure.

PAULA: I think it’s just a human thing where we actually want to connect with people and maybe have a conversation on the side with, you know, well, what do you think about perfume?

PAULA: You know, if you tried it or, you know, I could just imagine the depth of connection that you’re facilitating.

PAULA: So I’d love to just talk a bit more, maybe if you would explain the live streaming concept.

PAULA: I think you explained to me the previous time that obviously the traffic fell through the floor in terms of the travel business, as we all know.

PAULA: China was the first place again that was so badly affected.

PAULA: I do think you also mentioned, by the way, the traffic is almost back to where it was before the pandemic.

PAULA: So it almost feels like in a full 12 month circle, you’ve come, you know, literally come back to your starting point.

PAULA: Is that what’s happening right now?

EUDES: Yes, I’d say the live streaming really started because we had so many people idle, so many stores open in airports with no traffic.

EUDES: So it really started out a necessity.

EUDES: And we experimented with different formats.

EUDES: We even hired external KOLs to be the hosts, et cetera.

EUDES: But what we found over time is first, our customers were very responsive to the experience.

EUDES: And people were prevented from traveling or prevented from even leaving the house.

EUDES: But that didn’t mean that they didn’t want to shop.

EUDES: And it also meant that they had more time on their hands than ever before.

EUDES: We also quickly found out that actually what our customers enjoyed and valued was the genuine aspect of the live stream and interacting with our sales staff who are experts in the product on a more intimate level.

EUDES: So I think people weren’t so concerned about the professionalism of the production or weren’t so concerned about talking with famous people.

EUDES: On the contrary, they were more into just the genuine aspect of it and the interactivity.

EUDES: Meaning a live stream is not scripted, it’s improvised.

EUDES: And customers can be part of the show, so to speak.

EUDES: And the way the live stream unfolds is very much driven by the audience.

EUDES: And a lot of it is just off the cuff, and just kind of made up as we go.

EUDES: So I think a lot of people actually enjoy the fact that it’s not scripted, it’s not pre-produced, it’s very much an open platform.

PAULA: Wonderful.

PAULA: And I really like that idea of unfolding with the audience.

PAULA: I haven’t understood that part of it.

PAULA: But this whole concept then of, as you said, you mentioned KOL is actually Eudes.

PAULA: Is that a term for professional presenters?

PAULA: Is that what you meant when you initially had an external person coming in?

EUDES: There’s a lot of people who have audiences of varying sizes, but who really do that for a living.

EUDES: Initially, we worked with some of these small celebrities who had their big following, but we realized that a lot of people on our team were actually quite natural and quite talented at building this connection with people.

EUDES: So ultimately, we focused more on promoting our own internal KOL, so to speak, and giving everybody in our team a chance to be a star.

EUDES: And build up their own followers and their own audience.

EUDES: So I think that’s been one of the big learnings.

EUDES: You don’t need much to become famous.

EUDES: You just need to be quick thinking, witty, and appealing.

EUDES: And that builds loyalty quite quickly.

PAULA: Wonderful, yes, yes.

PAULA: So influencers, I guess, is the term that I would probably have been familiar with.

PAULA: So really good to know how big that industry is in China.

PAULA: Again, I know it by reputation, but good to understand the terminology.

PAULA: And the other thing you had explained to me as well, Ud, before we came on air was the transition you made from big open platforms, such as the Chinese version of TikTok, into a more closed mini program on WeChat, which is exclusively for your loyalty program members.

PAULA: And I know you do have two versions of your loyalty program, but that sounded like it was an important strategic decision as well for you.

EUDES: And the other one is more meant to be more mass market on and covers our specialty retail on and food and beverage on is specifically for luxury, the reason why we shifted to a kind of like a members only on our closed environment is because our customers ultimately want personalized attention.

EUDES: So it’s not only about saving money.

EUDES: It’s not only about earning points and redeeming them.

EUDES: It’s really about having on exciting and one on one interactions with our teams.

EUDES: I’m not not not one of our customers is the same as the as the other.

EUDES: So in order to be able to provide this, you know, personalized experience, we decided to build our own mini program, which then also allows us to reach out to customers at different times in different forms and also to group them by areas of interest or by location or by brands they like, et cetera.

EUDES: And Adam was mentioning the big events that we had in the past.

EUDES: We still have those, but we’ve also created much smaller, more intimate events, you know, maybe only 15 or 20 people.

EUDES: But that we bring together because we think they will actually enjoy their company, each other’s company rather, and make it more of a social thing rather than kind of like a catch-all event that appeals to everybody.

EUDES: So it’s been, again, like, you know, luxury customers, by definition, have money to spend.

EUDES: But what they value is their time and what they value is the personalization of service.

EUDES: So we felt, you know, by implementing our own program, we were then in a good position to really better segment the way we talk to customers.

EUDES: And also, that allows us to be very quick and innovative on it’s a platform that we control.

EUDES: So when we decide to, you know, add a feature or change a feature, we can do it very quickly and also, you know, test new ideas without delay.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And I was just thinking about the infrastructure, particularly as you mentioned that you started in a book-legged fashion, I know, in store, as you said, with your own staff, learning by doing and then professionalized all the way up.

PAULA: So, Adam, from your perspective, have you had to add a lot more support in terms of just particularly, I suppose, on the live streaming side or even just on the on the loyalty membership itself?

ADAM: Multifaceted question, I’d say purely from infrastructure on the on the on the side where the actual work is done, the selling happens.

ADAM: I think what’s nice about Lagardère North Asia is there’s a very, very strong team spirit.

ADAM: So people are always willing to put on another hat.

ADAM: The success of the company is very important to them and deeply meaningful.

ADAM: So that that part didn’t really require significant additional investment, although it has grown just so that we can mature the operation.

ADAM: From the infrastructure side, I’d say the first platform we chose to work with, there were a lot of lessons learned there, and especially about how even infrastructure costs can spiral out of control, third party costs can spiral out of control, build your own versus lease from somebody else, just tons and tons of things.

ADAM: I think we’ve learned painfully from those lessons, and now we’ve kind of hit a good middle ground on some of those things using a more established platform that has multiple members, and that, for example, can guarantee responsiveness, uptime, etc.

ADAM: I’d say in terms of on the vendors, we’ve been quite smart about decoupling each part of the technology, so that if one vendor isn’t doing a good job or we need to enhance something, it doesn’t take down the entire solution.

ADAM: And then I’d like to say there’s more cost control, but I think that UB was just kind enough to accept the pain that the first run created, and it just hasn’t cramped down too hard on the second run.

ADAM: But I definitely think we’ve kept the spiraling from continuing, and now we’ve got a pretty solid baseline for, I’d say, almost low variable, nearly fixed costs of operation, and that’s helpful on the technology side.

ADAM: Okay, good.

PAULA: So what would you say is next, dude, in terms of what is your vision for, let’s say, even the next 12 months?

PAULA: Because it feels like 12 months, particularly in China, particularly post pandemic, is a very long time.

PAULA: So you’ve obviously excelled.

PAULA: I know you’re always already double daily, for example, with the live streaming, and you mentioned anything from maybe 100 to a couple of thousand people attending those those online live events.

PAULA: So is that something you see that just is going to continue to scale or any further evolution that you have already in mind?

EUDES: So continuing actually to give our customers the chance to build social and physical connections and also really enhancing the value of the program beyond just the monetary aspect or the point redemption aspect of it.

EUDES: So I think our key advantage in the space is that we really have both the online and the offline aspect of our business, which we can really leverage.

EUDES: So people have an exceptional experience when they are at the airport, where they get to use our VIP lounges or interact with our personal shoppers.

EUDES: Or when they are at home, so they’re not at the airport, we can still reach out to them and give them personalized service and I can inquire about anything they want or need and maintain that connection until the next time they travel.

EUDES: So that’s something that I will keep pursuing for the months ahead to really make our low-fee programs stand out and create more value for our customers and our brand partners.

EUDES: Then on our other program Voyage, which covers our bookstores, convenience stores, food and beverage outlets.

EUDES: The objective is really to accelerate the growth of the program in order to have a significantly bigger membership.

EUDES: Right now, it’s about a million members.

EUDES: We want to quickly get to 2 million.

EUDES: And the near-term goal is to get to 5 million in order to have a membership base that is strong enough and active enough to be able to build partnerships with third-party companies, whether the airlines or banks, etc.

EUDES: So these two loyalty programs are going into somewhat different directions, but they actually also overlap.

EUDES: So we have a lot of customers that are members of both, because people who like luxury goods also eat, people who like great books also buy cosmetics.

EUDES: So while we’re developing these two programs in different directions, we also want to create more connections between the two in order to be able to have a more comprehensive approach to meeting members’ needs and desires.

PAULA: Yeah, yeah.

PAULA: And often on this show, we would talk about the evolution from transactional loyalty to emotional loyalty.

PAULA: And it’s rare that we have concrete examples of exactly how you do that.

PAULA: So just want to acknowledge that you’re doing extraordinary work, just bringing the humanity, I think, back into commerce, because I do think there’s a risk of just becoming very commercially focused.

PAULA: And I think particularly if there isn’t an understanding at the very top levels of a company of the importance of how the individual experiences the loyalty program.

PAULA: I think it can go too far in one direction, but I can see you’re absolutely building that humanity piece.

PAULA: And what I wanted to ask you, actually, just as you were talking, Eudes, even before about your staff and Adam mentioned the enjoyment and team spirit that you have there with Lagard, would you say that you’re increasing even their loyalty to you as employees because they’re getting to build their personal brand, they’re getting to be these mini celebrities.

PAULA: So I can just see that that’s becoming an even more extraordinary place to work because of the visibility they’re getting and how well they get to do their job in a very innovative way.

EUDES: So the main measure of success is sales.

EUDES: But I think most importantly, it’s given everybody on our team the opportunity to take on new responsibilities, take on new roles and experiment.

EUDES: And I think the good thing about Livestream is that it’s live, right?

EUDES: So if you make a mistake or embarrass yourself, well, it’s quickly forgotten and we move on to the next thing.

EUDES: So I think our team has been very proactive in thinking of new ideas, new models and just new ways to impress our customers.

EUDES: And I think people are grateful when they have an opportunity to express themselves.

EUDES: And contribute to the conversation instead of just following orders or waiting for a script.

EUDES: So I think in that respect, it’s really given a lot of people on our team an opportunity to shine.

EUDES: And a lot of people who are natural extroverts to gain a bigger audience.

EUDES: So I think, yes, it’s definitely made us a better place to work because it’s fun.

EUDES: And also because it’s obviously an additional earning opportunity for our team members.

PAULA: Yeah, for sure.

PAULA: And I really think, you know, there’s lessons there for particularly anyone in retail eudes, you know.

PAULA: I mean, they’re just, and I don’t know if it’s limited to China.

PAULA: I really think, again, as you know, a lot of people listening to this show are, you know, all over the world, clearly, United States, UK.

PAULA: And I do think that there’s big insights that you’re sharing that could be, you know, maybe the silver lining for so many people who are struggling in their retail businesses and don’t have opportunities again to have that in-person retail experience.

EUDES: In China, obviously, we have the advantage of having these social media platforms that have, you know, huge memberships and, you know, our technology that’s already made to reach out to these people.

EUDES: But to your point, I think, yes, between the traditional brick and mortar retail, which obviously is, you know, like suffering and even more so because of the COVID crisis on one hand, and just the, you know, like anonymous e-commerce, I think there’s a third way, which is, I guess you could call it people powered e-commerce.

EUDES: Where, you know, you have the benefits of the convenience and be always on, always available, and just endless choice of e-commerce.

EUDES: But at the same time, injecting a bit of the humanity of offline retail back into it.

EUDES: Because ultimately, you know, like e-commerce, it’s, yes, it’s convenient, it’s fast and it’s cheap, but it’s also lonely and to some extent, you know, not that exciting.

PAULA: Totally.

EUDES: So I think there’s definitely, you know, regardless of the technology requirements or limitations, there’s definitely a way to leverage, you know, the human interactions that exist in offline retail.

EUDES: And, you know, like add like a e-commerce layer to that.

EUDES: So I think it’s not about, it’s not just about, you know, thinking about, you know, waiting to have like the right technology in place.

EUDES: It’s really, it’s really, you know, thinking about how to leverage what you already have, the custom rates that you already know, and to have a more, more regular interaction with them through the medium of technology.

PAULA: Totally, totally.

PAULA: And you’re right to, you know, I suppose, really highlight that this is so much easier in theory because you have the WeChat platform available.

PAULA: My, you know, big regret is that, unfortunately, I haven’t been able to get on to WeChat being outside of China and not having any connections to do that, certainly easily.

PAULA: But even just as an aside, I will be doing a show in a couple of weeks’ time just talking about WhatsApp and, you know, its potential as it starts to move into more, you know, commerce as well on that, you know, clearly purely a messaging platform at the moment, but, you know, evolving very quickly, as we know.

PAULA: And I was actually just in a luxury retailer myself last weekend, and I was amazed when I did show something, an interest in something, the sales staff immediately asked for my WhatsApp.

PAULA: And that hasn’t happened in any other retail environment as yet.

PAULA: And I was impressed.

PAULA: And again, the salesperson followed up and sent me stuff that I loved.

PAULA: So I definitely think even though the technology globally isn’t as sophisticated as the ecosystem you have there, we definitely still have potential, at least to go where the customers are, you know.

EUDES: I think, of course, the advantage of WeChat is that it has the user base and it allows the mini programs, which allow you to build up a fully fledged e-commerce website, including payments, et cetera.

EUDES: But to your point, even in markets where WeChat penetration is lower and WhatsApp is more popular, such as, for example, Hong Kong, we’re able to achieve the same objectives through WhatsApp groups and through one-on-one interactions through WhatsApp.

EUDES: Of course, it’s more fiddly, it’s more manual.

EUDES: The payment has to be done separately, but the idea and the end result are ultimately the same.

PAULA: Absolutely.

PAULA: Yeah.

PAULA: And as you said, actually, in its simplest form, we’re all here in terms of sales.

PAULA: So with the best will in the world, engagement is not purely for its own sake.

PAULA: It is to make sure that we are building viable businesses.

PAULA: So yes, it might be a bit clunky behind the scenes for us at the moment on our WhatsApp platforms, but ultimately it’s getting to what the consumer needs.

PAULA: And that’s the most important thing.

PAULA: So I’m super happy that we’ve had such an extensive conversation about building loyal behavior.

PAULA: And I’ve often said on the show, the reason I call it Let’s Talk Loyalty and not Let’s Talk Loyalty programs is exactly for these kinds of conversations.

PAULA: Because what I’m hearing is that you’re giving people something extraordinary that they want to connect with, they want to be customers of yours.

PAULA: So from my side, it really is a fascinating study and I’ll be watching it super closely.

PAULA: Is there anything else?

PAULA: Maybe Adam, from your side before we wrap up that you want to say and then Eudes as well, if you want to have any kind of closing comments?

ADAM: I think when we talked earlier, the thing that I, if I was listening to this program and I wanted to take away, I think it’s about sponsorship and it’s about commitment to the sponsorship.

ADAM: And I think a lot of the stuff I’ve learned from seeing and being part of a loyalty program is it’s one thing to have an idea, it’s one thing to have a vision, right?

ADAM: It’s one thing to be willing to invest money, but it doesn’t stop there, right?

ADAM: You have to have that sponsor who’s willing and able to stay involved and connected, driving it forward.

ADAM: Even when it looks like you’re just losing money.

ADAM: And if the program looks like a pretty boring, I’ll just spend some money, get some points, maybe use them.

ADAM: And there’s nothing differentiated.

ADAM: You’re probably not going to have a good outcome.

ADAM: So you’ve got to constantly find what are these new mechanisms to connect with the customer and do something different.

ADAM: And I would say that if you start doing the program or your program or your loyalty system correctly, it should probably make you start looking at all the other ones you encounter with a more critical eye.

ADAM: Because I’ll be honest, the biggest thing I’ve noticed from this is Eudes, you know, you and I both used to like to travel a lot.

ADAM: And look, I’m very flattered and gracious that, you know, some of the frequent fire programs and accommodation programs have done things like maintain your status because you can’t help not be able to maintain it, etc.

ADAM: But I have started thinking, man, why don’t you guys try to connect with me?

ADAM: Why don’t you try to, you know, sell me something?

ADAM: I mean, it sounds weird, but once you see how well it works, you think, man, it’d be nice if some of the hotels would say, hey, by the way, we’ve had these shops, there’s some stuff we want to do.

ADAM: Might appeal to you because of what we know about you.

ADAM: And that’s the thing I would say, if your loyalty program is done right, they should really start making you cast a more critical eye on all the other programs you work with.

PAULA: Yes, and rightly so, Adam.

PAULA: I’m the biggest critic when it comes to loyalty programs.

PAULA: And I’ve again talked about it before, particularly on big occasions, like how am I treated on particular key occasions during the year?

PAULA: So they’re missing more opportunities than they’re taking in my certainly experience.

PAULA: So thank you for that, Adam.

PAULA: And Eudes, final parting comments from your side?

EUDES: No, I’d just like to say thank you for the opportunity to share.

EUDES: And I think you’re doing something great here because loyalty used to be somewhat of an afterthought or an add-on to a business model that was working fine.

EUDES: Whereas now I think it’s shifting towards more being the business model and its own.

EUDES: And it’s all about maximizing customer engagement, whether or not they’re buying that day.

EUDES: And I think it’s a relatively novel concept.

EUDES: And there’s a lot of things that are still on work in progress, or that need to be fleshed out, or there’s a lot of experimentation that needs to be done.

EUDES: And ultimately, people are focusing on this, or people are taking time to talk about it or think about it, is what makes the whole thing of this.

EUDES: So I think we’re just really at the beginning of this, thinking of loyalty not as a program or as a bank of points, but really a way of doing business and building commerce.

EUDES: So I think it’s a very exciting space.

EUDES: And instead of just being a part of the business, it can really become the core of the business, which allows companies to then be successful and long lasting like never before.

PAULA: Well, Sir Eudes, that is exactly music to my ears.

PAULA: I’m going to quote you on that loyalty as a way of doing business.

PAULA: So certainly not just a program.

PAULA: So thank you so much for investing both of your time.

PAULA: As you know, this whole show is intended to be educational and inspirational.

PAULA: And both of you have contributed extraordinary insights today.

PAULA: So Eudes Fabre, Chief Executive Officer for Lagardère Travel and Adam McCarthy, Chief Information Officer.

PAULA: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.

PAULA: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its loyalty academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.

PAULA: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.

PAULA: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

PAULA: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.

PAULA: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform.

PAULA: Find Let’s Talk Loyalty and subscribe.

PAULA: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews and thanks again for supporting the show.

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