Audio Transcript

Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I’m your host, Paula Thomas. And if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world. 


Hello and welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty. Focusing on perhaps the single biggest issue I believe is facing all of us as loyalty marketers we’re discussing today, how to measure and prove the value of your investment in loyalty marketing initiatives. Something we know is really challenging for so many of us, and is often the biggest concern for the senior executives in your business. 


To discuss this and kick off an exciting year-long partnership with Epsilon, to help address this issue for all of you listening globally. I’m excited to be joined today by Brad MacDonald, Vice President of Loyalty Strategy at Epsilon to firstly introduce their new client loyalty labs launching in Australia next week. 


We’re also together launching a unique, personalized, and private loyalty lab every month. For one lucky listener of Let’s Talk Loyalty, where one of you will have the opportunity to work with the experts at Epsilon for an independent review of your loyalty program and come away with some concrete ideas to drive its performance to a whole new level. 


This monthly workshop is a no strings attached way that together Let’s Talk Loyalty and Epsilon can support you. So please do enjoy my conversation today and learn how to apply for your free Loyalty Lab Workshop, courtesy of the experts at Epsilon.


So Brad MacDonalds. Welcome back to Let’s Talk Loyalty. 


Thanks, Paula. Good to be here. 


I can’t believe it’s, um, it’s actually been already six months as, since we had our last conversation, Brad. So how is life treating you and Epsilon? 


Um, it’s been really busy and really good. Um, we’ve, we’re just struggling to keep up with all the work that’s coming in. I think there’s a lot going on in the loyalty space right now, and a lot of things changing and it’s, uh, it’s been exciting 


For sure. And I always think that’s a high quality problem as I say, Brad. And what I’m particularly seeing is that you’re spending more and more time, I suppose, in my parts of the world and even down as far as Asia Pacific. So we’ll be getting into some of the reasons around all of that, but some incredible work done by Epsilon in APAC. But before we get into all of that, Brad, let’s start with my new favorite loyalty question. As I mentioned to you, which is trying to get an understanding of what is your favorite loyalty program. 


Yeah. Um, I, I’m a big fan of the Delta Airlines program. Um, I previously worked at Delta airlines. I’m a little bit biased, um, and love the airline industry. And so I’m always intrigued and what’s going on there and, you know, I, I don’t, um, spend much time working there anymore,but, um, you know, I’ve always been intrigued by just the level of, um, I don’t know the level of engagement a member might have with a program like that and the opportunities that the airline has to treat high volume members in a special way. And, um, the opportunities to, um, you know, recover from service failures in an interesting way. There’s just so many interesting things with the airline industry that, um, I’ve always been intrigued by airline loyalty, but, um, I think Delta has done a great job with it specifically. Um, you know, I, I concentrate most of my travel on Delta, mostly based on where I live, but even if I lived in an area where I had more of a choice, I, I would choose Delta. Um, I, I think they do a good job with, um, they’ve done a good job of integrating the member experience and loyalty into the broader, broader brand experience and, you know, more specifically for their medallion members. I think they’ve done a really good job coming up with some creative benefits and really delivering on the benefits. Um, you know, and I, I know that they’re long as miles that you earn through the program as well. And those are interesting as well. And I use those, but they’ve done some interesting things above and beyond that monetary value that you’re getting out of the program that I really love. Um, I guess my, my number one example would be, you know, if I ever have a problem with a booking, I could call the medallion line and, you know, they instantly pick up and say, hello, Brad, welcome back. Wow. Um, how can we help you? And every person I’ve ever worked with on that line has always been very friendly and very, um, very flexible and just eager to help me solve my problems. And, and that to me is a larger benefit than any of the miles they’ll ever give me. 


I totally agree, Brad. Yes. And it’s not enough. I think that we talk about using loyalty as a real benefit for service to really have that extraordinary impact on somebody who is in a, a moment of whatever type of prices is going on and airlines being, I suppose, particularly the ones that do tend to need it more than anything else, just operationally. But I remembered from my days in British Airways am delighted to hear the Delta’s doing such a wonderful job. I actually, wasn’t familiar with the medallion and tear that you talked about just there, but sounds like just an incredible program all around. 


Yeah. Yeah. I think they’ve done a really good job. Um, you know, they sort of hit on all of the, uh, the areas of emotional loyalty and, you know, rational loyalty and the value you get out of that. And it just feels like they’ve done a good job, you know, creating that sort of member experience that kind of makes you feel special. 


Totally, Totally. 


At least for me. And I know, you know, they’re not perfect, but you know, you can tell, they’re trying 


For sure. Actually, it’s sometimes that’s all we need, isn’t it? Somebody who’s willing, willing. That’s brilliant. Yes. And I was looking back actually as well to our conversation, Brad, and remembering that you’re the only flight attendant or let’s say, pardon me, former flight attendant that’s ever appeared on Let’s Talk Loyalty. So definitely you have a passion for the airline industry that goes all the way through. So it’s a great perspective and a great start to this conversation. I think it’s fair to say when we met at the end of 2021, we were coming out of, I suppose, the, the shock of the pandemic, the consumer changes behavior changes, I suppose, that were so dramatic. And I think all of the things we talked about then brands are still very relevant in terms of, you know, we talked about subscription, we talked about gamification, but I think, you know, we’re in the next phase now, I suppose as we start to feel a little bit of dare I say normality again. So given your role, you know, was vice‑president loyalty strategy there in Epsilon? What would you say is the current kind of landscape for loyalty marketers and people listening to this show? 


Yeah, I think we’re definitely still riding the wave of loyalty that emerged during the pandemic. Uh, we saw at the beginning of the pandemic, at least from an Epsilon perspective, um, our workload just spiked immediately as the pandemic, um, took off. And I think it was because a lot of brands realized the value of retaining those customers, um, and try to hold onto them no matter what. And they were looking for anything they could to, you know, hold onto those precious customers that weren’t shopping as frequently or were shopping in different ways that they didn’t have access to before. And so, you know, we thought just a spike of, of, um, a spike of interest to Epsilon during that period. And, you know, nearly all of our customers that are new and existing customers during that period were looking for ways to, um, further engage and further entrench their customers, their brands. And so it was moving beyond just sort of the traditional loyalty tactics of, you know, spending get and some of the more traditional type of programs. And they’re really looking for like, how do we engage them more when they’re not shopping with us? Cause you know, during the pandemic, they, a lot of them just weren’t shopping as frequently. Yeah. So it was things like, you know, um, more engaged in communications or gamification or rewarding them for non, um, non-transaction activity. So for, you know, just browsing a website or just like looking at a new product. So we, we saw a lot of that kind of activity, takeoff, a lot of interest in that. Um, and it hasn’t really stopped. So even though we’re sort of hopefully knock on wood at the end of the pandemic, um, you know, it, it feels like that interest level is still there. And I think we’re seeing a little bit of a shift now where, you know, it at the time of the pandemic, it felt like, um, they were making these decisions pretty quickly that they needed to move in that direction. And it was kind of an intuitive decision that they just, they knew that they needed to do something and they knew loyalty works. And now we’re at the point where I feel like there’s a need to kind of justify justify some of those decisions that they made at the time. And so that’s, we’re seeing a lot more of that now. And we’re responding to that, um, at Epsilon with, um, a much more stronger focus on the value that members or that clients can get out of loyalty. 


And that’s exactly, I suppose what I’ve often said myself, Brad, it’s probably the area I struggled most with when I was leading programs, you know, I would regularly be challenged as to, you know, what kind of return or what kind of value are we getting to the business and how do we measure it? Because at the end of the day, and I know all marketing suffers from this to a certain extent, but I think a loyalty program is a very specific investment. And again, it’s one that sometimes is extremely exciting for the business, but actually it still requires investment regardless, you know, whether it’s at launch phase or being delivered, you know, years later. So what are you am I suppose, saying to these kinds of clients, as they do start to wonder about how do we measure the value to the brand of what we’ve been then doing, uh, you know, with these particular initiatives? 


Yeah. I I’m like you were in, in, you know, when I was working on the client side of, of loyalty, um, I was actually at Radisson Hotels and I remember specifically it was about every other month we would get asked to prove the value of the program. And, you know, they, I think there were a lot of executives there at the time that viewed loyalty as, um, a giant cost center and look at the point liability associated with the program and they would think, well, why don’t we take that and reinvest it just as building some more hotels, Uh, when that be more valuable than a loyalty program. And it was. And so we spent a lot of time getting very creative on ways to show them that loyalty was providing value. And, um, you know, so since I’ve been with Epsilon, we’ve continued to get those kinds of questions from our clients want to know, like how do I prove to my executives that loyalty works? How do I prove to them the ROI on it? How do I compare it to the other marketing tactics? 

And, um, and it’s, it’s hard to do. It’s not an easy thing to do. You know, there’s a few reasons it’s hard. One is, um, you know, just the idea of how do you measure incremental value of a program above and beyond what a customer was probably going to do anyway. Um, and so that’s really hard to do, especially if you don’t have anything to compare to if, you know, um, if we don’t have non‑member performance to compare to, or if we don’t have a sort of before and after a before and after view to look at, um, so that’s hard. And then there’s always this, this question of causality, which is like ism is a member of the program is a high value member in the program because they’re already shopping with us a lot or are they here shopping with us a lot because we have the program in place. And so it’s hard to prove that causality. Yeah. Um, and then the other thing that I think makes it really hard is that we’ve been working really hard to blur the lines between loyalty programs and the broader customer experience. And as we do that, it’s hard to draw a line and say, this is where loyalty starts or stops and where everything else takes over. And so we’re kind of kind of creating our own problem here, where we’re blurring the lines. And so now it’s hard to even harder to answer that question of like, what’s the ROI on our loyalty efforts. Um, and so there’s, there’s a few different ways that we’ve worked with clients on proving the value of the program. Um, you know, there’s, and I don’t know that there’s any one right solution to this, but, um, you know, we’ve got, um, some pretty good analytics, um, models that we use to help you look at, um, sort of what’s causing different, um, sort of what’s the causality behind loyalty. Um, what’s the correlation between loyalty and revenue performance. So we’ve, we’ve got some of that that we use. Um, we also do a lot with financial modeling where we’ll do like a breakeven analysis on a program and say, um, well, here’s all the facts about your program. Here’s all the inputs and outputs. Um, here’s how much revenue it’s generating. Um, you know, what do we need to break even on this program? And do we believe that the program is at least doing that? Yeah. So, um, so that’s one way we approach it. And then another way that we’ve done it in the past is also by looking at, um, the future expected value of a member. And I know that a lot of airlines have done this. Um, they did this during COVID where they were valuing their programs based on the future expected performance of their members. Um, in fact, there’s a really good article by, in the Harvard Harvard business review called The Loyalty Economy. That has a really good view of kind of trying to predict the, the longer term, um, lifetime value of a customer loyalty. Um, so there’s a few different ways that we’ve done it, but it’s, it’s not easy. And it’s a, it’s a big kind of hairy question to answer, you know, what’s the ROI of my loyalty program. 

Yes. Yeah. And I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s struggled with it, Brad, because, you know, typically I would have been, you know, the person where the book stopped with me. So, you know, it’s, it’s really difficult to be the person. And I was, I suppose, very strong operationally, but not very strong on the financial modeling and still am. And so, you know, hands in the air, I’m definitely not the person to come to with the ROI question, but I always felt that, um, it was me alone that had this particular challenge, but certainly throughout Let’s Talk Loyalty. I mean, we’re about 200, and something shows in now and it’s something I do hear coming through from so many people because of the reasons you identified Brad. So, so the first one, for example, I really love that you do have, you know, obviously enough brainpower in the strategy team to, to do the financial models, to at least, you know, be able to articulate and intelligent view of our breakeven looks like. So I can imagine you get an extraordinary response even from clients, just to have that level of coherent thinking, I suppose. And again, with a, I suppose, an external perspective that they can enjoy your view coming from other clients and the whole industry. 


Yeah. The financial modeling has been, um, something that we’ve developed over the years and we have some proprietary models that we use that look at. Um, you know, it’s sort of like a five‑year forecast of what we expect loyalty to do. So we use benchmarks from a lot of the different clients that we work with to, to try to estimate, you know, like what, how fast we think this program is going to grow. Um, what kinds of, you know, benefits are there to the program and what do we think the return might be in terms of increased frequency or increased spend or increased retention. Um, and then the secret to all of that is that we do a ton of sensitivity analysis around it. So because there’s so many unknowns, you know, we do a lot of like Monte Carlo Analysis and other sensitivity where we say, well, we don’t know exactly how much return we’re going to get on this benefit, but what if it was in this range, um, where we’ve seen from other programs that they typically get somewhere between here and here, and that allows us to produce kind of a range of expected benefits for our program, um, which allows us to then optimize because once we know kind of the range, we can say, okay, what are the factors that might cause us to be lower? And how can we mitigate some of those factors? Um, or, you know, here’s some of the ones that are going to drive it higher. How do we double down on some of those benefits and make sure that we’re getting everything out of those that we can 


Yeah. And I would say, yeah, I think what particularly is resonating there? Um, what you’re talking about Brad is the focus on behavior change because I think was, um, you know, particularly, I suppose our, our colleagues and fi I suppose, um, assume is that it is, you know, driven by trying to build the emotional connection to the brand, which so much marketing is of course, and there’s a role for that. But I think I’ve always been most excited about loyalty because of its role driving behavior change. And it sounds like something that that’s, at least you can start to have the right conversations and language that they know you’re at least again, focused on things that actually drive the business performance. 


Yeah. I’m really glad that you said the words, behavior change because those are, that’s exactly how I’ve been thinking about it. And that’s how we’ve been sort of focusing our efforts at Epsilon over the past year or two is, um, we’re really trying to focus on the value that a client can get out of loyalty. And, um, you know, instead of this traditional approach of let’s, you know, build a one size fits all program, if we build it, they will come. Um, now let’s measure the ROI of this thing to see whether it works. You know, there’s so many programs that have been built that way, which it’s just, there’s so many things wrong with that. Right. Um, and so we’re trying to focus more on what we call our value led approach, which is starting with, okay, who are they’re our target customers. So who are the ones that we care about changing behavior for, um, what kind of behavior do we want to change for those or maintain, right? There might be some that we just want to maintain their behavior. Um, and then after we’ve identified that, and, and, and that, that behavior can be totally different, you know, your, your best customers, you, it might just be about retention of those versus your new customers. It might be about onboarding engagement versus you might have a switch or segments that you want to just get, you know, one more visit out of those customers. And so, you know, the, the one size fits all approach just definitely doesn’t work. You need to have a strategy across all of your different target segments. And then once we’ve identified that strategy, then it’s, um, you know, that it’s about setting objectives for each of those, a very measurable executive, um, objective. So for example, that switcher segment, I just talked about, um, you know, it’s one thing to say, we just want more visits from them, but setting a specific objective, um, is the next step, which is, you know, let’s say we want to get 10% more visits from 10% of those customers. Uh, so setting, setting very specific objectives for each of your segments, which then makes it very measurable, right? It’s, it’s easy to measure that objective and say, did we get percent more visits from 10% of those switchers? or did we lengthen our attention for our best customer segments by 5%? Like we said, we were going to, so we believe if you have, um, your objectives broken down by your segments and you’ve identified what behavior change you want, then measuring value becomes a lot easier. It’s not a matter of saying what’s the overall ROI for this program. And then it’s a matter of saying, did we meet our individual objectives for each of the different segments? And if we did the loyalty is successful. 


Yes. Yeah. And, and what I’m hoping, you know, dare I say, it branches in the future. We mightn’t get, you know, the question every second month, you know, is this still the right use of our money investing in loyalty? You know, if we can start to, you know, prepare in advance and have those answers upfront with those detailed objectives, as you said, so we can say, yep, behavior, change, revenue return, all of those kinds of things. I think it’ll, it’ll just pat back a lot of the concerns that we’ve had to in the years gone by. 


Yeah. And the other, I think important point is the value comes in different formats. It’s not all, it’s not always about a monetary return, but at least an easily measurable monetary return. You know, you might have a segment that you want to cultivate as ambassadors for your program. And, you know, that’s, it’s hard to assign a dollar value to that, but it’s easy to measure whether you’ve made progress against that or not sure. And so I think if we can, you know, clearly define what those objectives are for the different segments, that it changes that conversation. So when we get asked the question, what’s our life, my program, you can say, well, let’s look at the individual objectives. You know, for this segment, it was to do this for this segment. It was to do this and let’s show you the progress that we’ve made against those goals versus answering this question of what’s the program worth, because that’s a really big kind of hairy question to answer. 

Let’s stay away from the Haredi questions I love it, But what I’m hearing coming through as well, Brad is, you know, I’ve known Epsilon now maybe for, for just about three years and starting back in Ireland. So a wonderful relationship all over the world now with you guys. And, but I suppose, you know, in the past, you know, I’ve really only been aware of the technology and the platform and all of that kind of wonderful work and the extraordinary clients. Well, what I’m hearing now is a much more focus and positioning of you guys with, you know, really inputting into the loyalty strategy, even if you are not necessarily delivering on technology. And I think that’s extraordinary that you’re making yourselves available to have that expertise available for people who have these big questions. 


Yeah. Yeah. We work with a number of clients who aren’t using our technology. We would prefer that they do, but obviously, you know, um, Yeah, We work with a lot of clients who don’t have our technology or may not need our technology, or maybe it’s not the perfect fit. Yeah. Um, but the other thing that we’re doing is we are trying to build this strategy mentality into our technology. So it’s, um, our broader strategy is not just that we have, you know, strategy and technology as two separate offerings. We’re really trying to integrate those two into one offering. Yeah. And, you know, as an example of how that works, I just talked about this value led approach. Um, you know, so instead of kind of measuring the value through a strategic or analytical process outside of our technology, we’re looking for some interesting ways to integrate that into the technology. So, um, we’re really focused on a lot of the reporting and tools that we can build into the platform that can make it really easy to set goals against different target segments and to measure your objectives and measure your progress against those goals. So we’re really trying to take that sort of strategic mindset and integrate it into the platform. So that it’s a kind of a unified experience for our clients versus having two separate offerings that we offer them. 


Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. And I’ve often said there are so many wonderful consultants in the world, but remarkably few that have the expertise of running a loyalty program, particularly at scale. Like I know you guys do for, for Walgreens, for Duncan. And I know I saw a McDonald’s recently on your website as well that you guys are working, particularly with this loyalty strategy consulting service. 


Yeah. Yeah. We’ve been working with McDonald’s for, um, I think a little over a year now, maybe longer than that, but, um, they’ve been a great client and we’ve, um, you know, been able to take part in their exciting journey to, um, you know, they’ve experimented with some different things and they’ve tried some different things, which I think is the right way to do it. Right. Let’s 




Let’s, let’s get creative and try some different things or they’ve totally embraced and they’ve done it. And, um, you know, we’re happy to, to see their success with their, their newer efforts. 


It’s absolutely extraordinary. And I said to you off air Brad, hopefully we will get McDonald’s on the show at sometime soon because there were so many people all over the world that just admire that brand business‑wise for so many reasons. So to see McDonald’s investing in loyalty at such scale and with such phenomenal results, I mean, it’s absolutely breathtaking. So, so hopefully one to come in the future, but I suppose back to your own and, you know, proving of the value to the brand brads. I know what you’re starting to do now is run these workshops, which are literally kicking off now very soon. I think it’s next week in Australia, eh, with Sydney, 

Brisbane, and Melbourne. So I hope you’ve allowed enough time for your jet lag because I know you’re going to be flying an awful long way to deliver these workshops, but tell us about the, uh, Epsilon Loyalty Lab that you’re starting to offer to your clients. 


Yeah. We believe that there is a big opportunity for us to educate clients on this value led approach that we’ve gotten that we’re taking and that, um, there’s a lot of clients out there who struggle with just even the business case for loyalty. And I think there’s a lot of, um, potential clients out there who they know that they want to do something with loyalty. They have seen other kind of best in class programs. They want to grow up and be like them someday, but they just don’t know where to start. And so, um, we’ve put together what we call the loyalty labs, which is an introductory, um, workshop with these clients to help them understand, you know, where can you get value out of a program? And also what value can you provide to your members? And at the end of the workshop, you know, we’d like them to have a clear idea of, you know, here’s the path I need to take to identify where there’s potential value, what are the steps I need to get it. And then at the end of that, how do I measure the results that optimize on that? And so as we introduce clients to this kind of process and, um, our thinking around, um, how you get there and make recommendations to them, um, you know, we think that that education can go a long way and, you know, hopefully, they’ll, they’ll choose to continue to work with us and building out a program. And at some point purchasing our technology, you know, that’s the ultimate goal, but even if it, even if they don’t decide to, you know, we think there’s a big opportunity for education and helping these clients figure out, you know, where is there an opportunity and how do I, how do I justify that? How do I take this opportunity back to my executives and show them that there’s potential value in that there’s a size of the prize associated with this? 


Absolutely. So for people listening to this show today, Brad’s obviously let’s talk loyalty is very much supporting the Epsilon loyalty labs workshop and encouraging everyone to, um, to just, I suppose, raise their hand. And, you know, I suppose enter, you know, a contest for the opportunity to work with you guys and in this, I suppose, an incredibly valuable type of strategic work perhaps for, you know, a day out of the office. So maybe tell us a bit about this opportunity for people who are not yet working with you. 


Yeah. So we would like to, um, we’re putting together a contest that, um, you know, I believe you can go to the Let’s Talk Loyalty website to, to enter for that, um, contest. And, um, you know, we’ll be selecting winners who will have the opportunity to spend an entire day with, uh, an Epsilon loyalty consultant. And, um, you know, the, the primary purpose of this will be to talk about like the potential value that you could see out of a program, or if you have existing program, we’d love to take a look at it and help you come up with ways to measure the value of that program. Uh, we’d love to come up with some strong recommendations for how you can improve that program by the end of that workshop and, um, help you figure out what’s the roadmap to getting all of that put together. And so, um, yes, that’s, that’s something that we’re, we’re offering, you know, this opportunity for some of your listeners to take part in these loyalty labs. Um, and you know, we’d love to meet some new leads, new people and give them the opportunity to spend a day with one of our strategists. 

Yeah, it’s an incredibly generous offer Brad, and one I’m super excited about I’ve been involved with the development of this concept, obviously over the last number of months. What I’m particularly excited about, I guess, most Brad is, as we said, first of all, the extraordinary expertise that will be available, no holds barred and, you know, no sales pitch, literally just, you know, a genuine, honest sense of contribution. And from you guys to, to somebody who might need a bit of support and perspective, and I think we can all always use an extra bit of perspective on our programs. So I think that’s wonderful, but also what I love Brad is this is a year long program we’re launching today. So every single month there will be some, um, wonderful, you know, company that is either considering loyalty or reviewing loyalty, or just looking for that expertise that we’ll get to benefit from the Epsilon loyalty strategy consulting team. So it’s the start of a long journey, and I will make sure that all of the links are available of course, with this show. And, but we already have a page, as you said, forward slash Epsilon. So I think we’ll keep everything there in terms of the competition and people can quite simply come on. And as I said, raise their hands, let us know that they’re interested in them being considered for this wonderful workshop, which I believe will be done privately for that one selected winner. Am I right? 


Yes, that’s correct. And our preference is to do it in person as well. You know, hopefully the current conditions will continue to allow us to do that. And so, um, you know, it would be, uh, an in‑person session with, uh, at least one of our strategists to help you, you know, to sit down and look at your current loyalty strategy, um, figure out how you prove more value from that strategy, um, and put together some solid recommendations for you by the end of it. 


Very exciting Brad. Wow. Well, listen, I wish I could be an Ansel with those sessions. I might try and piggyback on them if there’s one in Dubai. So I’m hopefully over the year to come, as we said, there’ll be plenty of opportunities for us to get involved. So I think that’s all from my side, Brad, is there anything else that you wanted to mention on today’s show before we wrap up? 


Um, I’m not sure that I have anything else. I mean, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you, Paula. I know that, um, we have several of our Epsilon associates lined up to have some interesting conversations with you over the coming months. Um, and they’ll continue to talk more about the, this loyalty angle, this, this value led loyalty angle that we’re really pushing hard 

at Epsilon right now. We believe that it’s sort of, um, the biggest thing that our clients need from us right now, which is, you know, you know, helping to identify that value. They can draw from a program helping to identify what the right kinds of values are that they can provide their customers, um, and then proving the value at the end of the day. Yeah. Um, and then optimizing on that, we just, we believe that’s sort of something that’s been missing from the larger loyalty world for a while. And we’re really doubling down on this idea of like loyalty should be a value 

exchange between the member and the brand. And it should be something that we should more easily measure and be accountable for and, um, be able to optimize on. So we’re, we’re really excited about that. And you know, a lot of us have sort of different areas of expertise that we’d love to, um, you know, bring onto your show and talk to more of your listeners about 


Totally Brad. Well, as I said, the start of the next phase of a wonderful relationship with all of us and yeah, I think everybody listening to this show really wants to do good work. And if there’s a way that Epsilon can just give you some perspective, some advice, I think that will be extremely useful and valuable all around. So at the end of the day, we all want to have wonderful loyalty programs that are delivering for our customers. So with that said, I want to thank you for coming back again, Brad, it’s been absolutely wonderful conversation, huge fan of this new project. So Brad MacDonald, Vice President of Loyalty Strategy at Epsilon. Thank you so much again from Let’s Talk Loyalty. 


This show is brought to you by the Australia Loyalty Association. The leading organization for loyalty, networking, and education in Asia Pacific. Their international virtual loyalty conference will take place on the 25th of August, 2022. Register now to hear global experts discuss current trends in loyalty marketing, there will be fantastic networking opportunities, questions, and answers, gamification, and great prizes to be one, visit to find out more. 


Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty. If you’d like us to send you the latest shows each week, simply sign up for the Let’s Talk Loyalty Newsletter on We’ll send our best episodes straight to your inbox. And don’t forget that you can follow Let’s Talk Loyalty on any of your favorite podcast platforms. And of course, we’d love for you to share your feedback and reviews.


Thanks again for supporting the show.