Paula: Hello, and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.
Paula: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights for loyalty marketing specialists around the world.
Paula: I’m delighted to announce Capillary Technologies as the new title sponsor for Loyalty TV.
Paula: Capillary’s mission is to bring the loyalty market out of the 1980s and into the present, ditching the slow, chunky manual services of the past.
Paula: Capillary is all about making loyalty management easy, with scalable, AI-powered tech that turns loyalty managers into superheroes.
Paula: Say goodbye to outdated methods and check out the exciting new way to achieve loyalty excellence in 2024.
Paula: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Paula: Today’s episode is incredibly exciting as it features NASCAR, otherwise known as The National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing.
Paula: NASCAR is the sanctioning body for the number one form of motor sports in the United States.
Paula: They’re based in Daytona Beach in Florida, with offices in five cities across North America.
Paula: Sanctioning more than 1200 races annually in 11 countries and more than 30 US states.
Paula: Our guest for today’s episode is Donald Baal, Senior Director of Fan Loyalty for NASCAR Rewards.
Paula: And he explains more about the sport and the multi-generational loyalty that already exists with fans.
Paula: As well as some of the fantastic reasons why the business made the decision to invest in a former loyalty program to build those emotional connections even further.
Paula: I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Paula: So, Donald Baal from NASCAR.
Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and to Loyalty TV.
Donald: Thank you, thanks for having me.
Paula: This is super exciting.
Paula: You are in one of the most incredible adrenaline sports that I had no idea was going on.
Paula: They’re particularly in the US market, although I know you are an international brand and really growing at a phenomenal rate, Donald.
Paula: So welcome again to the show.
Paula: We’re here to learn about your journey with loyalty, of course, because you do have this extraordinary asset, but of course, business objectives that you need to achieve.
Paula: And we’re keen to explore how loyalty is supporting all of those.
Paula: So before we get into all of the hot topics around our industry, as you know, we are in 2025, asking all of our guests to tell us a little bit about what they’ve enjoyed, either reading or listening to, in their professional journey.
Paula: So something in the nonfiction space, and that perhaps inspired you at some stage along, in terms of your own learning as an industry professional.
Paula: So let me kick us off with saying, Donald, what is your favorite book?
Donald: Yeah, thank you.
Donald: I’m an avid reader.
Donald: I focus mostly on fiction, but I do dabble in nonfiction sometimes.
Donald: Bob Iger wrote an autobiography not too long ago.
Donald: It’s called The Ride of a Lifetime.
Donald: And we’re in Daytona Beach.
Donald: We’re in Disney’s backyard.
Donald: My family frequents their parks all the time.
Donald: So picked it up and really was really interested in kind of his principles for leadership.
Donald: They stuck with me.
Donald: You know, he talked about optimism, courage, decisiveness and fairness.
Donald: And optimism was kind of the first one.
Donald: And I always try to project optimism to my team.
Donald: You know, we’ve got a lot of peaks and valleys, highs and lows, especially launching a new program and just trying to stay positive throughout the journey and making sure my team is staying positive.
Donald: Because it’s a fun space to be in, even through its challenges.
Donald: So I want to make sure that we’re always projecting that kind of positiveness and optimism, especially for our fans.
Paula: Oh, I love that.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And actually, some of our listers will know, because I’ve mentioned it before, Donald, but my friends back in Ireland call me Positive Paula.
Paula: So we’re totally aligned.
Paula: And another book to add to my wishlist.
Paula: So that’s the one thing with asking this question.
Paula: In fact, with guests, I’m getting so many recommendations.
Donald: Yeah, the list gets long of books to read.
Paula: It totally does.
Paula: And I know, as you said, you’re not particularly into a lot of nonfiction.
Paula: So thank you for really sharing that one.
Paula: And the fact that you can literally refer back to exactly what you learned, I suppose, goes to the power of Bob Iger and the Disney story.
Paula: So absolutely incredible.
Paula: So let’s hear first of all, if you don’t mind, maybe just an introduction to the brand.
Paula: I think I confess that NASCAR is something I didn’t really have a good appreciation of, but certainly do now.
Paula: But just for our global audience, Donald, would you mind introducing what it is you guys do?
Donald: Sure.
Donald: So NASCAR is the sanctioning body or the league.
Donald: I think most people have probably heard of the Daytona 500.
Donald: That’s certainly our biggest event of the season.
Donald: But interestingly enough, it’s our first event of the year.
Donald: So we start our season with our Super Bowl.
Donald: But it’s a 36 week long season that goes across the United States.
Donald: We race all the way from Florida to California.
Donald: They’re stock cars.
Donald: And what that means is they’re more the cars that Chevy, Toyota and Ford put through their production lines and that you can access on their showroom floors.
Donald: And so they’re stock cars.
Donald: They have fenders.
Donald: Our racing style with NASCAR is a lot different than Formula One or IndyCar in that there’s a lot of contact.
Donald: There’s a lot of, you know, beating, banging, rubbing fenders.
Donald: And it really makes for an action packed Sunday.
Paula: Oh, I can imagine.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I was on your YouTube channel as well, Donald, as you can imagine.
Paula: As a content creator, I was like, I wonder what you guys are doing on YouTube.
Paula: And there it was.
Paula: All the top 10 finishes, some of the scary moments, and a way more contact than I think any automobile can safely endure.
Paula: But I guess that’s what adds to the overall fan appeal of the sport.
Donald: Absolutely.
Donald: And it also speaks to the safety side of the sport.
Donald: So a lot of obviously research and engineering goes into the safety of our cars.
Donald: And the things that we’ve seen them do at 200 miles an hour and drivers get out and walk away without any injury is really remarkable.
Paula: Remarkable.
Paula: It sure is great stuff.
Paula: So thank you for that kind of background and context.
Paula: And again, plenty of people, I’m sure, do follow Formula One, but it is a totally different sport than absolutely if they can literally go and buy the cars themselves.
Paula: And, you know, I suppose enjoy reminiscing about, I know about the cars themselves.
Paula: And you also told us actually people are obviously fans of the individual drivers.
Paula: So lots of opportunities for phantom, I guess, in terms of the scope of what you do.
Donald: There are.
Donald: It’s funny.
Donald: I mean, our fans obviously are drawn to their favorite driver, but just as much they’re drawn to their favorite manufacturer.
Donald: So you’ll have a Ford fan or a Chevrolet fan, and that’ll be passed down from generation to generation, and they’ll never even think about switching sides.
Donald: And so even when their favorite driver may retire, they’ll look to find another driver that’s coming up that’s driving the same maker or manufacturer of cars.
Donald: So they stick with their manufacturer camps.
Paula: My goodness, wow.
Paula: Okay, so intergenerational or multi-generational loyalty.
Paula: I’m not sure which is the correct term, but…
Donald: Yes, yes.
Paula: You have a lot to tap into, I guess, with all of that emotional loyalty, as we would call it.
Donald: Yeah, it really makes it…
Donald: I won’t say it makes our job easy, but NASCAR fans, I think, at their core are super loyal.
Donald: And our studies have shown, across all sports brands, NASCAR fans are really loyal to their sport, loyal to their driver, loyal to whoever is sponsoring their driver.
Donald: So if you’ve seen a NASCAR race car, it’s a moving billboard.
Donald: But our fans really hone in on who’s sponsoring and supporting their drivers, and they’ll go out and support them at the grocery store or at the home improvement store.
Donald: And so that’s made it easy to draw fans into this program and get them engaged in an even deeper way than they already are.
Paula: Indeed, yeah.
Paula: And we’ll definitely get into the detail of that, Donald, because sometimes I think sports is a sector or a category where loyalty professionals might wonder why you might need to invest in a structured loyalty program, given that we might assume you have a lot of maybe transactional data or insights in terms of of what people are doing or loving.
Paula: So I’m definitely going to be keen to explore all of that.
Paula: But I wanted to get a sense of, I suppose, your career, Donald, if you wouldn’t mind just sharing that as well, given that we have a good sense now of the fun and competitive nature of the overall race seasons.
Paula: So tell us a bit about you.
Donald: Yeah, I’ve been with the sport since college.
Donald: I’m a Florida native, so I grew up in South Florida.
Donald: I went to school at the University of North Florida, which is just north of Daytona Beach, where the Daytona 500 is hosted every year.
Donald: And during summer break, I got a job at the Daytona International Speedway selling tickets, selling tickets to their museum, selling tickets to the Speedway tours, and kind of moved my way up as I finished school and graduated into selling race tickets into the marketing department.
Donald: I dabbled in email marketing and some digital marketing for a time, moved up, had many great bosses over the years, but really stuck with NASCAR.
Donald: I’ve spent time on our digital platform, so running the nascar.com website as well as our mobile app and digital products.
Donald: Then recently, I guess three or four years ago, was asked by my boss to spearhead this operation where we wanted to really dive into the loyalty space and figure out one if it was possible, and if we could come up with a program that would be appealing to our fans and that we could execute.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Yeah.
Donald: It’s been a 20-year career.
Donald: I just got my 20-year milestone award this past Christmas.
Paula: That’s incredible.
Paula: My goodness.
Paula: Congratulations on your loyalty.
Donald: Thank you.
Donald: Thank you.
Donald: It’s been a great company to work for.
Paula: Clearly.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: That really is extraordinary, and literally the grassroots insights as well, Donald.
Paula: I feel that there’s nothing like starting literally selling those tickets, meeting your fans face-to-face and every aspect of the business.
Paula: I’m not surprised you were asked to lead this literally from the blank sheet of paper, which I have to say, I’ve never actually had the joy of a brand that needed a loyalty proposition and to have full control of the execution from the design through to the build.
Paula: And I think today is a big day, if I’m not mistaken.
Paula: We’re in January 2025, and you’ve had some big progress just today itself, which I’d love you to explain.
Donald: Yeah, that’s right.
Donald: So when we launched this program, we were using a system called Persuade.
Donald: It was a bit of a homegrown program, really custom built to meet our needs.
Donald: But over the years, Capillary has acquired Persuade, and we’ve been working with them really over the past 12 months to transfer and kind of migrate from the Persuade platform onto Capillary.
Donald: We’re excited about really just the offerings that Capillary has out of the box, and that they’re able to offer us really the chance to grow at a much bigger scale than what we’re able to do now.
Donald: They’re able to handle a lot more transactions and interactions with their fans than what we’ve been able to do historically.
Donald: So we’re excited.
Donald: We’re actually hitting that go live button later this afternoon.
Donald: And so we think we’ve worked out all the kinks and all the bugs.
Donald: We’ve got a big race coming up in about 30 some odd days with the Daytona 500, but we think we’re ready.
Paula: That’s incredible.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And you told me you’re fair, obviously.
Paula: Again, it was Capillary who did introduce us to each other.
Paula: So a big shout out to the team there.
Paula: I know they’ve been great.
Paula: Yeah, you told us they’ve done incredible work to make sure to get you ready for today’s big day, the big go live.
Paula: So of course, that’s always something that we tend to worry about as industry professionals, just to make sure everything is buttoned down.
Paula: So I’ll be thrilled to hear.
Paula: And again, thank you for sharing time on such a momentous day.
Donald: Yeah.
Donald: Well, and I have to give kudos to Capillary because it’s a challenge, I think, more than a lot of programs.
Donald: One, and just the nature of it is that it’s not just transactional based.
Donald: There’s lots of different things we’re asking our fans to do.
Donald: But also, there’s no room for error because, as I said, we start our season with our Super Bowl.
Donald: And so it’s not like we can ramp up into this and like, well, we’re going to start small and hopefully grow and make sure we’ve got it.
Donald: We’ve got to get it right on day one.
Paula: Yeah, exactly.
Paula: No such thing as a soft launch when you’ve got a Super Bowl.
Paula: Well, that’s right.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: So talk to us about the proposition then, Donald.
Paula: I think that’s what fascinated me most, actually, when we, you know, we were chatting and preparing for today.
Paula: There is an awful lot of activities that you need to recognize and reward.
Paula: So would you mind talking through, I suppose, the program proposition?
Paula: And I guess particularly the fact that, yes, there are plenty of fans, of course, who will come and see the races in person.
Paula: But of course, there’s lots of different channels as well.
Paula: So would you mind just talking through, you know, what you’ve built and why?
Donald: Yeah, absolutely.
Donald: We knew from the start that we needed to create a program that would be interesting and attract casual fans, new fans.
Donald: We wanted to get that newer, younger demographic.
Donald: But we also didn’t want to alienate our most avid fans, our longtime fans, our generational fans.
Donald: And so coming up with a program that not just rewarded those new fans, but made sure we were recognizing and appreciating and showing that appreciation to our most avid fans was important to us.
Donald: And so we knew that it couldn’t just be about how much money you spent with the sport.
Donald: It couldn’t just be if you buy a $1,000 sweet pass, that you’re getting the access to opportunities that the family who’s been coming every year for 20 years, but is sitting down in the lower section spending much less money per weekend, they’re just as important to us and they’re just as avid and just as diehard of a race fan.
Donald: So we wanted to make sure that not only was it a program that focused on transactions and engagement, but that the transaction part of it was fair.
Donald: And so our program rewards you when you make a ticket purchase and it rewards you when you make a merchandise purchase, but it rewards you the same if you buy a ticket in the General Mission bleacher seats or if you buy a ticket in the sky box.
Donald: And the majority of your earnings are based on engagement things and so things that you’re going to do away from the racetrack.
Donald: We know that most of our fans, while they come out to the racetracks, if they’re lucky, they get the opportunity to come to one race a year.
Donald: But that’s obviously not going to keep someone engaged for the course of a 36-week long season.
Donald: So we had to find things that would engage fans when they’re at home, when they’re at the racetrack, when they’re in their cars, really anywhere that they’re showing their NASCAR fandom.
Donald: We wanted to make sure that we were recognizing and rewarding them.
Paula: OK.
Paula: And how do you do that?
Donald: Yeah.
Donald: So, you know, a lot of digital engagement.
Donald: So we worked with the digital team, with nascar.com and the mobile app, to make sure that all the things that we want fans to do, they can be rewarded for it.
Donald: So if you’re watching a race from home, you can check in on the race leaderboard to say, I’m watching the race, and you get points that way.
Donald: And those points multiply.
Donald: So if you watch two races in a row or five weeks in a row or 10 weeks in a row, there’s bonuses as you kind of hit those streaks and achievements.
Donald: Fantasy racing is really big for our fans, just like fantasy football is big.
Donald: It’s just as big in the NASCAR community.
Donald: So if you create a NASCAR fantasy lineup, and if you set that lineup every week, you’re rewarded for doing that.
Donald: We have online games and quizzes and polls and surveys.
Donald: Our fans love to tell us about themselves, and they certainly love to tell us even more about themselves when we reward them with points.
Donald: So obviously, first-party data is super important.
Donald: It’s important to NASCAR to continue to grow its database, to have that top of the funnel to continue to market not just tune-in, but ticketing too.
Donald: And the more we know about fans, the more we can tailor that messaging.
Donald: And so we give you points when you complete your profile and tell us things like who your favorite driver is, or what your favorite racetrack is, or favorite manufacturer.
Donald: And that allows us, like I said, we don’t want to send a ticket message to somebody that’s got an image of a driver that they don’t like.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: Wow.
Donald: Obviously, conversion rates are much higher if those messages are tailored towards the drivers that they’re really into.
Paula: Wow.
Paula: So that sounds like hyper personalization right there, Donald.
Paula: It’s something we talk about all the time on the show.
Paula: And the vast majority of people said they’re nowhere near that level of execution, but it sounds like you are.
Donald: We’re certainly getting there.
Donald: I think there’s obviously room for growth.
Donald: But what I feel like my challenge is, is to make sure we’re collecting enough data so that the marketing team has that to get as hyper-personalized as they can.
Donald: I don’t want them to not know who someone’s favorite driver is.
Donald: And so we think that their fame rewards has really been a value proposition for fans to tell us a little bit more about themselves.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: So with all of the, I suppose, inherent loyalty that we’ve talked about then, it sounds like an easy job.
Paula: I mean, clearly nothing.
Paula: I’m not going to trivialize what you’ve done.
Paula: But the fact that there is already an emotional engagement and an attachment to everything that you do, actually, it’s not just, as we said, one car, one driver, whatever.
Paula: It’s the whole space, I guess, of their entertainment at the weekend.
Paula: So I feel like you do have permission to ask for a lot.
Paula: And why wouldn’t you do that?
Paula: Give us a sense of, I suppose, your member base, Donald, again, I know it’s very early days.
Paula: But just in terms of, I know the story has been a long time in the making in terms of thinking about building a loyalty program, launching something on this previous platform, and then getting through to where we are today.
Paula: So give us a sense of the membership base that you’re at at this stage.
Donald: Yeah, so we’re in our early days.
Donald: We’ve got about 250,000 members, active members that are coming to our site and earning points.
Donald: What we’ve seen is our challenge is really about awareness.
Donald: And so I think NASCAR fans are asked to do a lot of different things by the league, by their home track, by their favorite driver or their favorite driver sponsor.
Donald: And so we’ve seen that when fans know about the program, they’re eager to sign up and they’re eager to participate.
Donald: They told us that they actually want to be reminded more often, like I want to earn my points, but sometimes I just forget it.
Donald: Life gets busy and there’s things going on.
Donald: So they’re actually asking us to communicate with them more.
Donald: Send me more emails, send me more push notifications so I don’t forget to do the things to earn my points, which is exciting.
Donald: We obviously see fans, when they join, become much more highly engaged.
Donald: And so their email rates go up.
Donald: They tell us 58% more about themselves than our fans who are not members.
Donald: They’re spending 70% more time on nascar.com and consuming much more content.
Donald: Going through the site and reading more articles, watching more videos.
Donald: And so that’s been exciting for our digital team to see those metrics.
Paula: Incredible.
Paula: Goodness, that’s very generous of you, Donald.
Paula: We’re always hoping and praying that our guests will have some of those kinds of insights.
Paula: You sound like a very analytical guy.
Donald: Yeah, so it’s interesting.
Donald: My group is nestled in a broader group that’s research and insights and analytics, I believe is what it’s called.
Donald: And so we work very closely with our data strategy team, which allows us to bug them a lot.
Donald: And I’m always asking for more data, right?
Donald: I want more reports.
Donald: I want to know not just how we’re doing, but how do we compare with everyone else?
Donald: So that we can continue to make the case for obviously, for more funding, for more promotion to continue to grow.
Paula: Yeah.
Donald: Wow.
Paula: Well done on those.
Paula: Very exciting.
Paula: I’d love to just explore the streaks piece a little bit, Donald, if you don’t mind, just I suppose, I’ve never worked with streaks, and I’m obviously aware of the power of them, of those kind of gamification techniques.
Paula: And I think particularly, as you’ve said, you’re offering your fans the opportunity to check in from home.
Paula: And I suppose just confirm that they are watching the sport.
Paula: Is there any concern, I suppose, in the business that they’re not watching, that they’re literally just kind of checking in and going off to hang out with the kids or just, I’d love to know how you think about that.
Donald: Yeah, absolutely.
Donald: I think when we first launched, there wasn’t any true way to say, you know, to be able to tie someone in the program to actually sitting in front of the TV and watching the race.
Donald: But we do know that if somebody looks at their phone and they see that their favorite driver is leading the race, they’re going to turn on the race.
Paula: OK.
Donald: So just to be able to get them to come to the platform and make sure that they know the race is on and they can maybe take a peek and see how it’s going, they’re more likely to then tune in.
Donald: We’re also working with our broadcast partners and we’ve got some new ones starting in 2025 with Amazon.
Donald: And so there’s some new opportunities there to probably do some in-race and in-broadcast promotions.
Donald: We’ve done some in the past with Fox and NBC where we’ll display a code.
Donald: Enter this code on your member dashboard to earn bonus points.
Donald: And so that allows us to promote that ahead of time, tune in.
Donald: You don’t know when it’s going to happen, but if you watch the race, there’ll be additional opportunities to earn.
Paula: And I can imagine the level of data and insights, literally, that you get from all of those specific individual behavioral codes.
Paula: That’s amazing.
Donald: That’s right.
Donald: And we can track the time that those codes are being entered and with regards to their relation to the green flag.
Donald: And so it’s interesting to see when fans are checking in, whether it’s at the beginning of the race or the second half of the race or right before the checkered flag.
Paula: Yeah.
Donald: It’s really more data than we can process right now.
Paula: Honestly, my head is melting just with the level of opportunity of what you’re doing.
Paula: So I can see why that optimism, as you referred to even at the beginning of our conversation, is probably something inherited in NASCAR.
Paula: I could just totally see how buzzy it must be.
Donald: Yeah, it’s exciting.
Donald: And I tell my team all the time, I mean, we’ve been going through this migration, which is necessary, but isn’t always the most exciting times.
Donald: But I’m excited and my team is really pumped to get back to like, what are the fun things we can do?
Donald: What are the new activations and new earning opportunities we can add for our fans?
Donald: And really the list is a mile long.
Donald: And I think it makes my job a little bit easier in that there’s always something to do next and always something to work towards.
Donald: It’s really just prioritizing what we’re going to do first.
Paula: Of course, of course.
Paula: And the piece you mentioned about Amazon as well, Donald, I know we didn’t talk about it all fair, but just because I’m a bit nosy about innovation, I guess, is a real passion for me.
Paula: And I know everybody who listens to the audience as well.
Paula: But I’m guessing that means within the Amazon Prime video, there’s some broadcasting permissions by the Sands of it that you’ve, I suppose, licensed to Amazon to show the NASCAR races.
Donald: That’s right.
Donald: So there’s a portion of the season in the summer that Amazon has the rights to broadcast live.
Donald: They also have the rights to broadcast our practice and qualifying sessions.
Donald: So before every race, our drivers get a chance to get out on the track and practice to kind of tune in their cars and make sure they’re where they want to be.
Donald: And then the qualifying sessions is they go out and do timed laps, which determines how they start the race.
Donald: And our fans love to watch that.
Donald: Certainly our most avid fans.
Donald: And that creates opportunities for us too about, traditionally, we haven’t done earning opportunities around maybe the practice sessions or the qualifying sessions.
Donald: But if we are broadcasting those through a new TV partner, there’s certainly conversations we’ve been having with them to work through what that could be.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: And just when we talked about the proposition, I’ve just realized I didn’t ask you whether you have a tiering strategy, just as you refer to, of course, your most avid fans.
Paula: So obviously, the points accumulation is one side, but very often there is a tier status.
Paula: Did I see in your website you have different tiers as well in the program?
Donald: That’s right.
Donald: We have three tiers.
Donald: And we call them, you know, your entry-level tier, you start out as a rookie, which is what we call in NASCAR a new driver who starts out in their first year.
Donald: They’re considered a rookie driver.
Donald: So a new fan of the program is a rookie.
Donald: And as they earn points, they level up into a champion and then an all star, which is kind of that that final tier.
Paula: Beautiful.
Donald: As you as you progress, your point earning multiplies.
Donald: So the more that you earn, the quicker you can earn points throughout the year.
Paula: OK.
Paula: And I’m guessing the rewards that you’re offering in the catalog as well.
Paula: Donald are probably, you know, fairly, fairly industry specific, I suppose relevant to the auto industry or what is the rewards catalog?
Donald: Yeah, that’s been been some of my favorite parts of the program is, you know, I joke around that I get to go on a shopping spree and it’s it’s like, what are the things that we can put in the rewards catalog that our fans are going to see and want to keep earning points for?
Donald: And so, you know, we want to make sure there’s those entry level things like a NASCAR koozie or a keychain or a pair of sunglasses that, you know, someone who just joins the program and maybe earns points for a weekend or two can see the instant gratification and get something in the mail.
Donald: But we also want to make sure there’s lots of aspirational awards.
Donald: And so all the way up to tickets, free tickets to races and then those once in a lifetime opportunities that fans don’t normally get.
Donald: So you can ride in a pace car at almost any one of our race weekends.
Donald: You can wave the green flag during a qualifying session.
Donald: You can visit Victory Lane after the race and get your picture taken with the winning driver.
Donald: And then garage tours are really big for our fans.
Donald: Most fans don’t have access to the NASCAR garage area, but they want it.
Donald: And so that allows them to go into the garage area before the race starts and see the drivers working on their cars and the teams making final preparations.
Donald: Those are, you know, we work with all of our tracks to make sure that we have obviously security access and the right number of people.
Donald: So they’re extremely limited, but they’re very coveted.
Donald: And so we see those those go pretty quickly.
Paula: I’m sure.
Donald: My goodness.
Donald: But then everything in between.
Donald: And it’s allowed us to bring our partners in as well.
Donald: And so if there are things from Arctic, who is the official cooler of NASCAR.
Donald: So we have Arctic coolers and cups and water bottles.
Donald: Or we have Pit Boss, who provides grills for NASCAR and things that you might need at a tailgate party for a NASCAR race.
Donald: And then gift cards.
Donald: So all of our partners provide us with gift cards or we work with them to obtain those, whether that’s Sanoco gift cards or Walmart gift cards.
Donald: So we try to have a wide assortment of items in the catalog that would appeal to fans who either want to come to a race or if they can’t, that they can use something at home.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: Oh yeah.
Paula: I could have imagined that being the most fun part of the job for sure.
Donald: It is.
Donald: I feel like I talk about it too much, but it’s always interesting to try to figure out what fans are going to really gravitate towards this year.
Donald: And it surprises me sometimes, like we’re out of sunglasses already, and it’s only June.
Donald: We’ve got to restock quickly.
Paula: Yeah.
Donald: Another thing I forgot to mention was autographed merchandise.
Donald: NASCAR fans love autographed merchandise.
Donald: And so we work with our drivers to get autographed hats and race flags and diecast cars, which are small replicas of their actual race cars.
Donald: And so that stuff goes really quick.
Paula: God, I can imagine.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And tell me more about your partners as well, Donald.
Paula: I know the last time we spoke, you mentioned quite a lot of partnerships that are, I suppose, core to the program as well.
Paula: So alongside the points and tiers, and as you said, a very powerful and relevant rewards catalog, I know you do work with a lot of partners, not just broadcast partners that I’d love to get a sense of.
Donald: Yeah, I think partners are kind of the backbone of NASCAR.
Donald: You know, you can’t watch a race without seeing who we’re sponsored by and who our official partners are.
Donald: There are partners of NASCAR, there are partners of the racetracks, and there are partners of teams.
Donald: But we want to make sure that all of our partners feel involved and have an opportunity to participate in NASCAR fan rewards.
Donald: And we do that in a couple of different ways, whether that’s, you know, if a partner, if it makes sense to have something, you know, in the rewards catalog, or like I mentioned, an arctic water bottle or a pitfalls, you know, grilling set.
Donald: But we also work with partners on some one of a kind experiences.
Donald: We work with Advanced Auto Parts to do a campaign throughout the playoffs where they would have an opportunity then to meet the Advanced Auto Parts driver, Ryan Blaney in Daytona for the Daytona 500.
Donald: Get some autograph to pair up with him.
Donald: And then what are things that our partners are doing, right?
Donald: They’re engaging and activating with our support.
Donald: We want to make sure our fans know about those opportunities and we should reward them for doing those things that our partners want them to do.
Donald: So, if that’s visiting with Xfinity, Comcast and subscribing to their service, or if it’s completing an application for an auto insurance provider who’s sponsoring NASCAR, we want to make sure those opportunities are available to all of our partners.
Paula: That is really interesting.
Paula: So, it’s almost like you’re operating as a mini coalition program across your entire universe of NASCAR and beyond.
Donald: That’s right.
Donald: And that’s certainly the long-term goal, is to get more partners involved and get them involved in a more meaningful way.
Donald: We’re working this year on an offers page.
Donald: You’re probably familiar with it if you are a credit card holder.
Donald: I get an American Express newsletter every month that tells me, here’s all the offers you can get because you’re an American Express card holder.
Donald: So, we’re trying to put that together for fan rewards members.
Donald: So, if you’re in the market for new Goodyear tires and you’re a fan rewards member, you can save 20% on your next purchase.
Donald: If you’re going to make a purchase on our official merchandise website, there’s discounts for that as well.
Donald: So, trying to grow that out and really make sure that it’s equitable for both our fans and our partners.
Paula: Absolutely, which I think also makes it very measurable as well in my experience because then they’re putting their hand up for the offer and you know for sure then the source of that customer.
Donald: Yeah, and it’s been interesting, it’s been a journey, right?
Donald: When we first started partners, you know, we’re a little reluctant to get involved.
Donald: They’re like, you know, no one wants to do more work if they don’t have to, especially if they’re not going to see any type of return.
Donald: And so, but as we’ve grown, partners have seen that it makes more sense to get involved and the team at NASCAR.
Donald: So, getting different departments across our industry aligned and aware of our program and seeing the benefits of it as well, not just that we’re asking for things all the time, but there’s a benefit to them as well.
Donald: So, our partnership marketing team has really started to talk about Fan Rewards more to their perspective partners.
Donald: And we’re going to a lot more meetings to talk about what are some benefits of getting involved in NASCAR and Fan Rewards has been a key component of that.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Very exciting.
Paula: And I was going to literally ask Donald, you know, with all of that activity going on, like, what are your, I suppose, key KPIs, you know, what are you measuring?
Paula: What’s driving, I suppose, the commercial side in terms of where you see that future going?
Donald: Sure.
Donald: We’ve been really fortunate in that leadership is focused not necessarily on a number or any specific KPIs.
Donald: They obviously want to see growth and growing the NASCAR database is important right now to leadership.
Donald: I mentioned the top of the funnel before.
Donald: And so the industry and the marketing team has been focused on on promoting fan rewards more as kind of a top of the funnel tactic for some of their other initiatives, which has been great for us.
Donald: For me, it’s all about engagement.
Donald: I don’t want someone to just join and then forget about it in a week.
Donald: So we’re really going to focus in 2025 on making sure we do those reminders that our fans are asking for and making sure that you’re not just joining the program, but that you’re staying engaged every month and that you’re taking those points and then using them.
Donald: Because we know that that’s the best way to keep someone engaged is like convert them into spending their points for the first time and then they get it.
Donald: Like, OK, I’m actually getting free stuff and I’m not even spending any money.
Paula: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Paula: And I did see that you’re on basically on a calendar year.
Paula: So points do expire.
Paula: So I guess there’s a lot of communications then to inspire people to log in, get those points and get the value.
Donald: Yeah, and it works perfectly for us and that our season ends right around the holidays.
Donald: So towards the middle of November, right before Thanksgiving starts.
Donald: And so our Black Friday and Cyber Monday sales are all about, don’t forget your points are expiring, go to the catalog.
Donald: Yeah.
Donald: It’s challenging though, because we don’t see even redemption throughout the year, because our fans are saving their points for those bigger things.
Donald: And then all of a sudden, November, December, there’s a run on the catalog.
Donald: And we’ve got to make sure that we plan for that and have enough that we’re not going to upset our membership base.
Paula: Oh my goodness.
Paula: Yeah, super exciting.
Paula: And I suppose the obvious next question then is life is never perfect.
Paula: Along with the highs, there’s always challenges.
Paula: There’s always scary times along the way.
Paula: So what can you share either in terms of something you’ve learned or something that maybe even still keeps you awake at night because the job’s never done.
Paula: And there’s always a lot to keep us super focused.
Paula: So what are you focused on most now?
Donald: Yeah, you’re right.
Donald: The job is never done.
Donald: Technology issues keep me up at night.
Donald: Not that we have them, but they’re just out of my personal control.
Donald: And so when the website goes down or the app crashes or somebody’s, I mean, we’ve all experienced issues with the web browser.
Donald: And I harp on the team all the time, like it just has to work, it has to be easy and it has to make sense.
Donald: And so I’m always looking at ways to make sure that it’s an easy user experience, the flow makes sense, things that I think makes sense.
Donald: And like, well, of course, it’s the buttons right there, how could you not see it?
Donald: We get feedback later on, you know, we do a lot of custom research.
Donald: And people are like, I don’t know how to do this.
Donald: I’m like, how do you not know how to, it’s right there.
Donald: But if they don’t know, they don’t know.
Donald: And so always, you know, trying to rework that flow and make sure that it makes sense to our fans.
Donald: And then I mentioned the rewards catalog, that stresses me out every month.
Donald: I mean, probably it’s really every week, I’m checking those reports and it’s like, do we have enough koozies left?
Donald: Do we have enough autographed merchandise?
Donald: How are we gonna get more?
Donald: We’ve got to go back and ask, you know.
Donald: So it’s a good problem to have in that, as the program grows, it’s gonna cost NASCAR more money.
Donald: We’ve got to buy more stuff for the catalog.
Donald: We’ve got to spend more money on technology.
Donald: But it’s easy to make that case to leadership that, well, we’re adding more fans, we’re learning more about those fans.
Donald: And so I think it’s natural then that it’s gonna cost a little bit more money to operate.
Paula: Oh, totally.
Paula: Yes, yeah.
Paula: And again, it would be much more expensive to get that data if you went outside of your own fan base to procure it.
Paula: So absolutely, every investment is a lifelong investment.
Paula: And I do know, I think you mentioned that it’s actually a family-owned business as well, Donald.
Paula: So it’s something that has like almost a legacy feel and a family feel around everything.
Donald: Yeah, absolutely.
Donald: And it’s, you know, change is hard for everybody.
Donald: Change is really hard for our fans, but change can be hard for leadership.
Donald: And so it was exciting to get their buy-in and their involvement in the program that it makes sense that, you know, they obviously want to keep our fans happy.
Donald: But to be able to create a program that continues to capture that fan data, it seems easy to me and it’s a no-brainer.
Donald: Like, well, obviously we should promote this because it’s the best way for us to start capturing more of that data.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: And forgive me for, again, my lack of knowledge, but you mentioned koozies a couple of times in your rewards card.
Paula: I have no idea what that means.
Donald: I’m sorry.
Donald: A koozie is a sleeve that you put over a can, whether it’s a soda can or a beer can, and it helps keep it colder for longer.
Paula: Okay.
Donald: They’re very inexpensive, but our sports fans love their koozies.
Paula: I’m sure.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: I totally know.
Paula: And I’m not a beer drinker, but I totally know that it is important that you don’t have your hand on the can.
Paula: They say your hand is cold and the beer is warm.
Paula: So a koozie is invaluable.
Paula: So that’s hilarious.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: So listen, I think I’ve come to the end of, I suppose, the questions I had Donald today.
Paula: As I said, I feel like it’s very much the start of your journey.
Paula: You’ve got all of the leadership, you’ve got all of the energy, enthusiasm, clearly amazing new functionality now with that, with Capillary as well on board to support you.
Paula: So any insights in terms of what the future holds or what are you thinking about as we go through 2025?
Donald: Yeah, just thinking about growth and thinking about engagement.
Donald: So we want to get more partners involved and we want to get them involved in more meaningful ways.
Donald: We want to continue to create those habit forming activities for our fans.
Donald: It’s easy to get a NASCAR fan to our website on the weekend.
Donald: That’s when the races are.
Donald: But how do we build the habits to get a fan to come back on a Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday?
Donald: Yeah.
Donald: So we’re working with some partners.
Donald: We’re excited to launch a new program in February with Powerball.
Donald: We’re calling it Winning Wednesdays.
Donald: And so there’ll be a game that you can play and earn between, I think it’s between 10 and 69 points because that’s the number of Powerball balls that there are.
Donald: And there’ll be different prizes that you can win as well.
Donald: American Express gift cards, trips to races.
Donald: So we’re excited about that program.
Donald: I keep saying we want to find the next wordle.
Donald: Now, I don’t think we’re going to find the next wordle, but it’s that idea of what’s the thing that I want to ask our fan to have to do every time they wake up in the morning and come to the site or open the app and do something to stay engaged.
Donald: Because once they do it, they’re going to do something else.
Donald: They’re going to read another article.
Donald: They’re going to watch another video.
Donald: They’re going to think to themselves, I’ve got to get to a race.
Donald: Yeah.
Donald: And so really just engagement.
Donald: That’s my big focus in 2025.
Paula: Got it.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Well, you and probably everybody listening, Donald, it is absolutely the secret sauce.
Paula: And yeah, we often talk, yes, the metrics are important in terms of the size of the base, but nobody wants an inactive base at the end of the day.
Paula: It is about, are they engaging?
Paula: Are they redeeming?
Paula: And fundamentally, I do think you’ve got again, your laser focus on that catalog to drive that closed loop so that they get the sense of what they’ve earned and achieved and cash in.
Paula: And of course, then the following year, they’re even more excited to do all those behaviors for you.
Donald: No, we’re excited.
Donald: We’re going to push Capillary.
Donald: We’re going to bring them along on the journey.
Donald: We’re excited to have them.
Donald: They’ve been able to, because we do some different things.
Donald: We’re not just about transactions.
Donald: And so when we talk about things like streaks or getting points for doing things on our website, a lot of that stuff was out of the box.
Donald: But some of those things, they’re like, well, I don’t know, we’ve got to figure that out.
Donald: And they’ve always gone back.
Donald: The calls are always, well, I think so, but let’s get back to you.
Donald: And it’s almost always the same day.
Donald: They’re like, yeah, we figure that out.
Donald: We can do that.
Donald: So that’s been exciting.
Donald: And we’re going to continue to push them to do more and more.
Paula: As you should.
Paula: And indeed, I know they’re delighted to be pushed.
Paula: And that’s the spirit of partnership that we all want when, you know, after you’ve made the decision about using a tech platform, then it’s the working relationship, which is the very longterm piece, which really needs to work.
Paula: So thrilled to hear that you’re off to such a great start.
Paula: And as I said, I don’t have any other questions than Donald for you from my side.
Paula: Was there anything else that you wanted to mention for our audience before we wrap up?
Donald: No, I feel like we’ve covered it all.
Donald: It was it’s been a great conversation.
Donald: I appreciate you having me.
Donald: If you are not a member already and you’re a NASCAR fan, feel free to check it out.
Donald: It’s nascar.com/rewards and you can get signed up and start earning your points.
Donald: And then the Daytona 500 that’s coming up.
Donald: It’s in February, just a few weeks away, I think February 16th.
Donald: So make sure you tune in.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Great.
Paula: And I do know you have lots more international expansion as well, just from having been on your website as well.
Paula: So it’s not purely a US focus.
Paula: So plenty of opportunities.
Paula: And as I said, yeah, from our side, I’ll certainly be tuning in much more often to at least follow the loyalty journey for sure and keep an eye on what you’re doing.
Paula: And please, God, you’ll come and join us on the show again at some stage, maybe this time next year.
Donald: Yes, I’d love to be here again.
Donald: Thanks so much for having me.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: OK, so Donald Baal, Senior Director of Fan Loyalty for NASCAR Fan Rewards.
Paula: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Paula: Thank you.
Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
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