Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I’m your host, Paula Thomas. And if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.
Hello, and welcome to episode 231 of Let’s Talk Loyalty, Today I’m talking about the power and potential profitability of leveraging the unique assets within your loyalty program as a media business. It’s a big idea, and it’s one I have seen work extremely well for brands who find the perfect balance between the needs of their loyalty members, their internal business requirements, and external advertising partners who are relevant for your audience.
Sonder Media is an Australian based expert consultancy firm that specializes in identifying, valuing and optimizing the media value of loyalty programs around the world.
In this episode, I’m joined by its co‑founders Jonathan Hopkins and Angus Frazer who shared their unique expertise and insights on this opportunity. As more and more of us come under pressure to increase the return on investment for our loyalty programs. I think now is the perfect time to think about this idea of leveraging your loyalty program as a media asset with the potential to dramatically improve your bottom line.
So Angus Frazer and Jonathan Hopkins. Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Thanks Paula.
Thank you Paula it’s so lovely to be here.
Great, great, great. Jonathan, you’ve been on the show before, would you believe it was over 160 episodes ago?
I know, I can’t believe it. Congratulations on, uh, on the growth, it has been a phenomenon.
Thanks a million. Yes, a few gray hairs in the mix as well. Jonathan, so listen to me and we’ve got a lot to go through today. Uh, for me, I suppose, the reason I loved having you on the show before was, first of all, I think you have a very unique role that you guys play in the industry globally in terms of helping companies with their owned media, managing it, measuring it and monetizing it. But also I think particularly you solve two very specific problems that I had in my career before, which was, you know, kind of, you know, increasing the return on investment for loyalty programs and also the pressure to drive media value. So lots to talk about today on those two topics and how you manage them. But before we get into all of that, please do tell me, what are your favorites, loyalty programs?
Oh, dumping on that one first Paula I think in a world where we, uh, inundated with some incredible AI technology, personalization targeting, um, the one loyalty program that still stands out to me is the humble coffee card because A I love coffee B I love being able to get free coffee.
Totally. Okay. So a low-tech solution from Angus. Well done you.
Yeah. And now I will build on that because, um, this week I heard about this coffee shop in London, um, which has a loyalty card as well, but what they did, which was different was invite their customers to get loyalty stamps from all their competitors. And then they gave a free coffee when they returned. And so I think that’s really confident and bold in your own product. You’re basically saying you’re welcome to go and try others. Um, we believe that we’re the best in town. If you, if you prefer that coffee, that’s fine. If you prefer us come back and we’ll reward you. So I thought that was quite a, a unique take on the whole coffee card.
It totally is. Jonathan. I think we saw a bit of that with wasn’t a McDonald’s and Burger King a couple of years ago where, you know, there was literally, I think, a geo‑targeted opportunity where you were incentivized to go and try the other burger with that obvious fan incentive to come back.
So smart play. Isn’t it
For sure. Yes. And I guess what I’m sure you’re doing is making sure to optimize that and smile nicely at the tail to make sure you get a few extra stumps along the way.
I need to be nicer to the barista to that dunno.
Yes, you do. Definitely brilliant. So listen, as I mentioned, there’s a couple of big challenges that I think everyone listening to this show really struggles with. And it’s good context for today. I’ve been talking a lot about just recently, in fact, and I suppose it comes at the end of a huge period of investment in loyalty programs and which I think will continue. But I think what I’m certainly hearing from people now is that there are more and more demands on, you know, how is that loyalty program performing? How can we measure and obviously increase the return on investment of loyalty programs. So I know owned media is a brilliant solution and answer to this kind of challenge that we’re all facing. So I’d love you maybe just to talk through exactly how does own media fit into this particular problem slash opportunity?
Okay. Well, I mean, I could jump in on that one. Um, in terms of, I guess, understanding the value of owned media, um, when it comes to loyalty programs and I suppose it’s poor form to start it answer, um, with a caveat, but I will caveat it to say that every business is distinct, is unique, and has different audiences, different media channels. Um, so it’s, it is difficult to pin a number on what any loyalty program out there is worth, but in our experience and working with the kinds of businesses that we’ve worked with, what we’ve found is that typically a loyalty program is worth over $70 million per year. So it’s significant in terms of the, uh, value and the potential commercial, um, opportunity there for organizations. Because when you think about all the media that is being leveraged and used to support different offers, rewards, and use across all the media channels, like email and social website apps, you know, there is so much there. Um, and when you add all of that value up, it is significant. And so we think that loyalty programs, when they, I guess, flip the lens a little bit and just look at the media that they have and the value of it, the audiences that they can, um, contribute and provide to other brands, it’s a huge opportunity for them.
And just to clarify, Angus that’s $70 million, obviously it’s an extraordinary number, but what you’re talking about is that’s completely different to the, the business case for loyalty, which exists to drive profitable behavior for the business. So that’s one element of the whole P and L for the return on investment. What you’re saying is that they’re entirely different opportunity and it’s a $70 million opportunity in your experience.
Exactly. And the beauty of it is that it’s very, very quantifiable. Um, and you know, the kind of work that we’re doing with, with organizations around the world is to actually calculate what the specific media value is for every single channel and format that they are providing and that they are using to communicate with their huge audiences and that because we can get down to that level, you can then ladder that back up to demonstrate the full value that loyalty program offers.
Absolutely. And I think I said to you, last time we spoke Angus that this was exactly the situation I had. I had a wonderful role as head of e‑commerce for E-bookers in Europe. And as everybody knows, the travel business has tiny margins. And every time there was an earnings call with our biggest competitor and lastminute.com, the single biggest takeaway that the investors had was, oh my God, the media value, these guys are earning on the back of their audience. I mean, I don’t know the numbers, but even 20 years ago, Angus, it was an extraordinary thing. And again, meant I was under pressure to sell media to my audience.
Yeah. And when, when you look at websites as an example, because a lot of that data is in the public domain, um, and you look at the top 50 websites in your country by monthly page views. What we generally find is that there are more normal businesses, um, than publishers in that top 50 ranking. Um, it’s usually about 60% of them are actually businesses. So they’re attracting huge audiences. And only now, you know, in the last few years, it was starting to see loyalty programs catch up with that and say, you know, across our email base, across our social following, um, our app, um, they’re drawing millions and millions of customers. Um, and those customers, yes, they’re there for, you know, to engage with the business, um, and transacting on some occasions, but also they’re, they’re looking for offers and the offers business we’ve seen, um, just grow exponentially, um, as a way to offer rewards to customers and the ability to target those customers and give them tailored offers is really, really powerful. Um, and then those offers are supported by our media channels. Um, so to make them aware of them and that’s where the value resides.
And then to, Johnathan’s sorry to Jonathan’s point there about the volume of audience, um, that loyalty programs can actually contribute and provide, layer on to that the sophisticated targeting that they are able to bring to the party as well, so that it becomes a really compelling opportunity for other brands to be able to leverage that so that, um, it’s not just, it’s not just a volume play, it’s a value play as well, and that they can really target those audiences. And in many times in many cases, better than what can be bought out in the paid media market.
Yeah. And actually, that’s a good point, I guess you guys both came from this industry of buying media. So I suppose you have a brilliant perspective in terms of what it’s worth, and you know exactly how to monetize it.
Yeah. We’ve, um, you know, between Jonathan and I, we’ve presided over the investment of billions of dollars around the world. And so we’ve seen a lot in terms of the way that brands can access paid media targeting, and obviously, it’s evolving constantly. And, um, there are some really good solutions out there, but ultimately when you look back at what a business can provide and the sorts of first party data, that they have, the sort of reporting that they can provide downstream financial reporting, that kind of thing, that is, you know, that’s leaving the paid media market for them. That’s incredible.
And I guess my key thing, when I think back to, to that particular instance where I was facing this challenge, as I mentioned in Ebookers, I guess, as an e‑commerce manager, the actual KPIs that I was targeted with were about converting. And Jonathan, you already refer to this idea that the customer’s there to transact with that branch. So I think I was always super protective of the inventory because what I was afraid of was actually there would be way too much of other people’s products and content competing for my customer’s attention. So how do you, I suppose, identified the best way to monetize owned media without compromising, I suppose, the core business and objectives that the visitors therefore.
Yeah, exactly. So we talk about, um, getting, uh, an even triangle between the three core constituents. So, and they are your business, your customers, and the partner, orl supplier if you’re a retailer. Um, so if you can get an even triangle between those three parties, you’re doing a good job where, where, where we see problems is, um, where for example, it’s skewing too much towards the partner’s needs. So it work, it’s working really well for a partner, as you said, in your example, but it’s not working well for the customer and therefore it’s not working well for your business. So if you can get it working on an even basis for those three parties, so it’s a triple win, um, you’re in a good spot. Um, you know, we’re, we’re certainly not in the business of, um, over commercializing your audience. Um, that’s a dangerous space to be in, um, and an absolutely not mercenary in that regard. It’s very much about ensuring a better outcome for your customer. And that’s where our partner offers, um, have really come into the fore because you’re adding value to your customer base by going out into the market and finding relevant offers for them and delivering them through your platforms. So you’re, you’re definitely winning for your business. You’re definitely winning for the partner and you’re definitely winning for the customers. So that’s why you’re seeing such growth in that, in that area.
Yeah. And I think you heard a funny phrase that you use to, uh, to, I suppose, explain those three different stakeholders. Do you want to share that with the audience?
Yeah. I mean, we, we talk about don’t tattoo the baby. Um, so don’t over commercialize your audience. It’s about being sensitive to your customer’s needs and adding value at every turn. And so some marketers get very protective, like you were describing, you know, the purists they’re they’re media assets. Um, and we understand that, you know, we’ve been marketers as well, but ultimately if, if it showing them a partner offer, adds value to the customer, then we think it’s worth doing.
For sure. So what cash agrees now, I suppose, bearing in mind guys that we’ve got people all over the world listening to the show. Of course. Um, and we also have all sectors. We have a lot of people in the travel industry. Uh, a lot of people like me coming from telcos, but what I said, you know, what are the particular loyalty programs or sectors and categories that you think particularly are working for this opportunity with, with owned media?
Well, I think certainly the categories that you’ve mentioned there are, um, uh, absolutely primed for being able to leverage owned media. And, you know, you’ve mentioned telcos, um, polar, and that scenario that we’ve done a lot of work in, and many of them now are really bonafide media businesses that brings scale, um, to content deals and really driving usage and customer value through their media offerings. Um, we work with, uh, Singtel Optus and, uh, no exception, you know, they have a business that spans across obviously, um, fixed Tiffany mobile, internet, but they also have, um, subscription TV service, uh, and they have major sporting and content deals with the likes of, uh, English Premier League. So, they have this enormous wealth of owned media value, um, which they are using in a really multifaceted way. Soobviously they have, um, very large sophisticated, uh, handset deals with the likes of Samsung and Apple and that kind of thing. Um, and so, you know, the owned media that they are using to promote these, um, new handset launches, and that kind of thing is incredibly valuable. And so it’s really being able to demonstrate the owned media value that they are bringing to support those handset deals. And then the third area is, is where your audience really comes into it, which is, uh, around the loyalty programs and offers and rewards, um, programs that are being run by telcos. Um, and, you know, as we’ve talked about the ability to really drive the owned media value within those programs,
For sure. Yeah. And as you were talking about that Angus, I was just thinking about, you know, this much rumors, death of the cookie and, you know, the opportunity to, um, to really advertise online is really being, eh, well likely to be compromised. Let’s say we don’t know exactly when, but it sounds like, you know, with that mindset that anybody who is looking to build awareness and do some marketing activity really does need access to first party databases where all the privacy is taken care of and as you said, the level of clarity and accuracy around marketing to certain people is just at a whole other level.
Yeah, exactly. There the first-party data phenomenon that’s coming. Um, very soon, um, if not already in a lot of categories, um, is an extremely powerful, um, owned media at all, um, and attracted to other companies, um, that ability to target, um, to demonstrate, um, conversion, um, via an opt‑in database is just not available in paid media. And so as, as the cookie grumbles, um, first-party data is, um, very much at the forefront of, um, owned media leverage. And what we’re seeing is movement towards, um, owned media, retail media, um, in many, many categories, um, to leverage that customer data in a, in a sensitive way.
For sure. And you mentioned Singtel, Angus am. I’d love to get a sense of other, I suppose, brands that you guys have maybe worked with and perhaps travel or, you know, or financial services. I think you guys mentioned is one where there is huge scale, bigger appetite, and I guess you’re doing kind of global media evaluations for these guys, to help them monetize it. (What other brands did they worked with?
Um, that’s right, Paula, we work with, um, travel and financial services brands around the world. We’re seeing a lot of growth in, um, airlines, um, who who’ve been quite established in this space, but now through their loyalty programs as well, that they’re generating, um, a lot of interest from external parties, um, and have, you know, online stores, e‑commerce programs within their loyalty programs and supporting those brands through their own media channels. Um, and then from a financial services, um, perspective, um, we work with, um, banks, um, big banks or, or getting into the office space as well as, um, global credit card brands across multiple markets. So, um, the, the, the equation is really quite powerful. So on average, across, across these offers programs, we’re saying about five times the cost of the offer to the business, to the partner business in terms of media support. So if it costs a, an offer brand 50,000 in hard costs of redemptions to the offer, we’re seeing $250,000 worth of, um, media support going behind that offer. So it’s quite a compelling sell to those brands and what we’ve seen, um, certainly in the financial sector is sales teams now leading with the value, um, of media as a, as a way to attract new vendors and partners.
Absolutely. And actually, as I was asking about the sectors as well, guys, I was thinking that, in fact, since we last spoke, I’ve actually moved into this direction myself, because I guess, you know, in B2B, there’s also brands that I can support as a media business myself. And whereas I don’t have an advertising budget, I can promote loyalty conferences and loyalty events and they can promote Let’s Talk Loyalty directly out to their audiences, which are usually an email format for example, or, or showing up in all of these random websites. But what I love about that model for me as a small business is it’s done on a full, I suppose, contra basis rather than a cash basis. So I feel like even for brands who are listening, that might not want to go the whole hog in terms of building a media business, there’s still opportunities to identify partners or maybe a complimentary loyalty program that has a similar audience and start to refer people to each other. So is that something you think is also relevant for, you know, understanding the value of owned media?
Yeah, absolutely Paula and, and, um, it’s great to hear what you’re doing there in terms of, I guess, leveraging the media assets or you can bring to the table and the audiences that you can bring to other brands, um, and contra or value in kind, these kinds of things are really, really common and we’re seeing a lot of businesses do this. I guess what we advocate, um, is that you need to talk about the dollar value and the audience that is being assigned to those media formats. So, you know, if you’re, if you’re talking about providing, uh, an email, uh, access to a, a website banner or leaderboard, you know, that kind of thing is fine, but it’s very, very hard to understand the real value of that, unless there is a dollar attached to it. So rather than just saying, well, we’ll give you an email and then someone at the other party saying, well, we’ll give you an email. Those two emails could be radically different, you know, in terms of the real value. So we always advocate, uh, know your worth, know the value of the media, that you have, the audiences that they, uh, command and that you can then actually go out and operationalize
For sure. And it’s a good point, Angus, because I’ve often had that situation where I would say, look, I’ll do an email out about your particular, you know, event for example, and somebody then says, great, we’ll put you, you know, as one of six in our email and I’m going actually, that is not a fair trade.
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I do remember we talked about solace emails last time, Jonathan, actually, you had a big number around a solace email campaign that you’d, uh, you’d done for a client.
Yes. We, we consistently find year on year. That email is one of the most valuable, um, channels and that’s across physical media in store, as well as all digital media channels. Um, you know, it’s, it’s opt-in, so it gets around privacy issues, um, that they’re, they’ve asked to receive it. You’ve got open rate, um, metrics which can add to the value, um, and it goes directly into their inbox. So there’s, you know, there’s a myriad of reasons why email is such a powerful tool even in, in the world where these new media channels and social media platforms come up, um, in terms of value, emails, email to tends to be the winner.
Yeah. Not surprised to hear that. And I think as consumers, we all feel that as well, it has cooked through. And what I’ve always liked about email is I do feel actually in control as a consumer. So if it does get excessive to your point earlier about, you know, getting the balanced right, I do feel like an unsubscribe. So, so I’m, I’m happy to keep receiving it because I feel that level of control that I’ll never be bombarded. So yeah, I think it’s a very good point.
And one of the innovations we’re seeing around the world is just this growth in customer personalization engines. So the ability of these larger organizations, especially in grocery and retail, to be able to tailor individual communications to an individual customer with offers based on their shopping behavior, um, is huge value to partners because they work that much harder and they just can’t be, they can’t be, they can’t do that anywhere else. So it’s quite a unique thing to own the media,
For sure. And I always love, you know, I suppose, innovative and emerging ideas as well in terms of formats. What else I suppose is coming through, you know, beyond those traditional channels that you’ve been, as we said, measuring and valuing for the last few years, what other kinds of ways, I suppose, should we be thinking about where there’s value and attention that could be, you know, opportunalized if that’s the word?
Well, yeah, the personalization engines is a big one. The other, um, types of formats that we’re seeing emerge is in, there’s a lot of growth in search. So what Google has been doing for years in the paid media space, we’re seeing translated into owned media. So, um, searching for products on an e‑commerce site, um, and then getting served with, uh, recommended banners, um, or placements that match that search. Um, and those have obviously a much higher value based on where they sit on the page. And, um, there’s a huge growth in app usage, um, and being able to serve relevant communication via, um, geo‑targeting, um, for example, you know, you’re walking past a McDonald’s and you’re being served by one of your favorite platforms, a geo‑targeted offer as you check your balance, um, is one example that’s been possible for some time, but, but it’s now being starting to come into that, um, office space as well.
Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to ask you that actually, Jonathan, given that as it has been since, what did we say November, 2020 when we last talked? And I think what we’re all seeing is actually just huge growth in this space. So, you know, you’re certainly preaching to the converted clearly as far as I’m concerned, but for people listening, you know, in terms of, you know, why now, if, if people would be considering doing something like this, like, what do you think is the opportunity for, for brands really, to, to think about doing something in 2022 when they might have liked me in the past, you know, kind of resisted doing it?
No, I think, um, when it comes to looking at your loyalty programs from a pure media perspective, there’s a couple of steps that we advocate, first of all, uh, the valuation. So before you do anything in this space and make strategic decisions around how to mobilize your media assets, you really need to understand the size of the prize. Um, so auditing and valuing, uh, the media, uh, assets that you have access to is the critical first step. And then secondly, you want to look at really, uh, defining the model in which you want to, um, apply to this kind of program. And that includes identifying the sorts of brands that you would want to partner with and decide whether or not you actually want to be charging cash money for, for your media, or if it’s going to be about representing the value as part of a wider deal. And this comes down to direct versus indirect revenues. So direct revenue is where you can charge cash money for access to your audiences via media channels. Whereas the indirect revenue is, is where you can represent that media value as part of a broader deals. And then I guess the third thing would be, uh, really resisting, I guess, the temptation to simply go out and offer the channels and formats. Um, you know, in the media world, you sometimes hear people talking about, uh, buying spots and dots, which is really just referencing the, uh, you know, the going out and just buying bits and pieces of media here and there without having any kind of strategic clarity as to what you’re doing. So, we definitely advocate, uh, creating solutions for partners. So solutions led, um, media opportunities is really critical. So you can essentially package up specific media channels that will address, uh, your customers or your partners, marketing objectives. So understanding what your partners are trying to achieve through communications, and then really tailoring those solutions through your owned media ecosystem and providing those. So that creates a huge step forward for businesses to be able to offer those kinds of well thought out solutions, rather than just saying, would you like to buy an email, that kind of thing.
And then finally, Paula, it’s about making sure that you’ve got the measurement and reporting in place. You know, we’ve, we’ve spoken about the data and the targeting and the ability to look at downstream financials when it comes to loyalty programs, that sort of thing is, is just it’s so, so valuable to other brands to be able to access that sort of thing. So for anyone in that space, who’s, who’s looking to do more of this. That is an area that you definitely want to be able to actually execute and leverage
Just to pick up on the second part of your question, which is why now I think there’s internal and external forces. The internal ones would be, um, post-pandemic, everyone’s looking for alternative ancillary revenue streams, and this is highly lucrative. You know, we’re talking about 80 to 90% profit margins because these, the CapEx has already been laid down. These media channels and ecosystem is already established. So it’s effectively just turning it on for partners. So that’s the internal reason. Um, externally we’ve kind of alluded to a lot of this, but businesses are saying, um, diminishing returns in paid media and they’re not getting that targeting level anymore. They’re not getting that ROI. Um, so there’s an appetite within the marketplace to move into owned media. Um, and so that’s the external force that we’re seeing as well.
Yeah. And I’d love to hear, I suppose, just even anecdotally, in terms of your existing clients, it feels like with that, I suppose, strategic clarity Angus that you mentioned, it does feel like that there is probably a need also for some internal expertise. So, you know, potentially of course working with you guys in terms of the valuation, but then when you do decide to start, you know, perhaps selling this particular new product in the business, it does feel like, you know, again, there’s busy loyalty professionals out there. It would be ideal, I suppose, to resource this as well. And to basically have those products created a go‑to market and actually sell them almost as a new business unit.
Yeah, absolutely right, Paula, and I think what you’re touching on there is one of the areas of innovation that we’re seeing, uh, is the inclusion of media specialists within marketing and loyalty to teams. And it’s, it’s, it’s so important because owned media really does work across a whole organization and it can be challenging, you know, to, to actually be able to corral and manage all these quite disparate teams. So having a media specialist who understands communications, understands marketing, and gets the media and the audiences that the business has to be able to actually really pull those together into a meaningful way, and they can be the champion for it. They can go out, they can work with loyalty teams, with marketing teams to, uh, really position the owned media in the way that it should be. And they can manage campaigns. They can do the planning and reporting. So yes, there is, uh, an OPEX cost to, to running media programs but in our experience, the cost is just so insignificant versus the actual opportunity in the ROI.
For sure. And I think what that does for somebody like me, for example, as a loyalty manager, is I have much more comfort than that the boundaries are clear, you know, when it is an internal solution, that the goals are fully aligned, that we know exactly how far we can go to the point earlier about not going too far for anyone stakeholder. I do think that that’s perhaps what was missing when I was being asked to deliver again on top of my busy workload. So, so great to hear that that media specialty is increasingly coming into loyalty programs.
Yeah. And just to build on that Paula the what the, what the reality of what we’re seeing is that because of the sophistication of running their own marketing programs, a lot of the tech and the data stacks are already in place. So if you think about, um, content management systems, CMS’s, um, a lot of these tech, um, platforms are already in place, and they’re already running, um, quite sophisticated data stacks to get those business financials on their own marketing and their own campaigns. So conversion metrics, um, engagement metrics, um, and just understanding through their customer data engines, what’s going on in their own business that can easily be used, um, and redeployed into partner campaigns as well as their own.
For sure. And I mean, I haven’t asked the question, but certainly when I think about all of my partners on the show, in terms of technology companies, I’m pretty sure that their solution is being designed with exactly these requirements in mind. And I’m thinking client‑wise, for example, I did write an article about Walgreens and I think it was about two years ago, but exactly this idea, you know, they have an audience of a hundred million people, uh, permission to market to them so then, of course, they set up the Walgreens advertising group and, and the opportunity to commercialize a database of a hundred million people and was obviously something Walgreen spotted a mile off and to put the infrastructure in place in order to, uh, to capture that value. So I’d love to be able to, to be on the inside and see the, uh, the P and L a couple of years on.
Well, we’re seeing, we’re seeing Walgreens, we’re seeing CVS. Um, in the last few years in the US Walmart have a business called Connect, um, in the UK, you’ve got Harrods, Media, you’ve got Boots recently launched, Tesco. Um, and so, yeah, the Amazon’s leading the way in terms of the revenue that they’re able to gather from this area. Um, it’s around 32 billion globally, which is huge. Um, and that’s where they’re making a lot of their, their revenues now. So yes, it’s, it’s happening a lot in the retail space. Um, airlines have been doing this for decades, um, as well. Um, they call it ancillary revenue, um, and the telcos, the financial institutions, are all doing it now as well. So it’s definitely, um, it’s definitely becoming more normalized
For sure. Well, as I said, you guys are perfectly placed in terms of your expertise. First of all, on
the buying side to now advise on the opportunity side. So from my perspective, you’re creating and delivering an enormous service to, uh, to, to the whole loyalty industry.
Okay. Angus Frazer, Jonathan Hopkins. Co‑founders of Sonder Media. Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.
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