Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas.
Paula: And if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.
Paula: So welcome to episode 34 of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: And in this particular show, I’m interviewing Adam Posner, who is an industry practitioner based in Australia, and he is perhaps best known for his work on an annual report, which is called For Love or Money.
Paula: So Adam produces that report in order to get great insights every year on what’s happening in the Australian loyalty market.
Paula: And of course, most of these insights are super interesting to us as loyalty practitioners all around the world.
Paula: But even ahead of the launch of that particular report in 2020, Adam stepped forward very generously at the end of March, and he put together this idea for a new e-book.
Paula: And it’s entitled 119 Customer Loyalty Ideas to Beat COVID-19.
Paula: And that’s the main reason that Adam is on today’s show.
Paula: Now, Adam has over 25 years as a Loyalty Marketing Specialist.
Paula: He’s originally from South Africa, but he has a huge amount of industry expertise, so I’m super excited to welcome him to the show and learn all about this e-book and customer ideas to beat COVID-19.
Paula: So without further ado, welcome Adam Posner to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Adam: Hey, Paula, nice to chat with you finally.
Paula: Finally, absolutely, great to have you here.
Paula: So listen, Adam, I’m going to first of all just explain to listeners why we’re having this conversation today.
Paula: You have produced a fantastic e-book, which is just about a 50-page report on these exact ideas on what listeners can do to deal with COVID-19, just given the scale of the challenges that we’re facing.
Paula: So I loved the post that you put up on LinkedIn.
Paula: So I’m going to read that out for listeners.
Paula: We’ll talk through that, and then we’ll get into all of the various ideas that came through from the various listeners, if that’s okay.
Adam: I’d love that.
Adam: Thank you.
Paula: Great.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: So on the 25th of March, 2020, with the COVID-19 pandemic prevalent worldwide, Adam Posner posted a call to action on LinkedIn.
Paula: Sharing is caring.
Paula: It is a cliche, however, it is the brutal truth.
Paula: I’m calling out to all customer loyalty people who are brands, technology, consultants, agencies, data people, et cetera, to share their ideas, collectively collude to maximize the sum of the parts in order to answer the question, how can we beat COVID-19 with the love of loyalty?
Paula: So it does not matter what the idea is.
Paula: It can relate to loyalty programs or not.
Paula: It can be tactical, strategic, short-term, long-term, so long as it relates to driving customer loyalty.
Paula: So we are aiming for 119 ideas, which is 100 more than the 19, which is a winning number.
Paula: So then Adam said he would collate these ideas into an e-book and make it available to anyone and exactly what he has done over the last six weeks.
Paula: So Adam, you’ve done a huge amount of work.
Paula: So first of all, congratulations for showing up and creating this incredible work.
Adam: Oh, gee, thanks so much for that intro and the background.
Adam: Yeah, Paul, it surprised me.
Adam: It’s one of those ideas I woke up one day and everybody was trying to think, what can they do, what can they do?
Adam: And I just felt that we could do something as a community because there’s no copyright on ideas.
Adam: And there’s so many smart and amazing people around the world who would just come up with any idea, didn’t matter.
Adam: And why not just ask the question?
Adam: And that’s what happened.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And I particularly like the term collectively collude.
Paula: I think that sounded really good.
Paula: And also the fact that you have over 63 loyalty professionals around the world.
Paula: So literally the contributors to this report, it’s almost like a who’s who of global loyalty.
Adam: Yeah, I was trying to get the community to engage with this story because of their various experiences, not only as consultants, but also inside of brands as well.
Adam: But interestingly, I also got just business professionals, just people who came across the post through the, and just gave any ideas.
Adam: Even locally in Melbourne, some business people said, oh, this brand is giving away discounts to the frontliners.
Adam: And so it was just this collection of people, and it was wonderful.
Paula: Fantastic, Adam.
Paula: Okay, well, listen, before we get into the report itself, as you know, we always start the show asking everyone what is their favorite loyalty statistic.
Paula: And I know you’re an avid listener of the show, Adam, so please tell me, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?
Adam: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this for a while since I started listening to all your 33 episodes before this 34th one.
Adam: I feel that in programs, a lot of people talk about volume of members and how many members we’ve got.
Adam: And there is a statement that says volume is a quality all of its own, but I’m about activity.
Adam: And the measure of active participation is my measure of success, a statistic that I’m very much passionate about.
Adam: And I’ve been measuring active participation in programs through our For Love or Money study, which we’ll talk about later, for the last seven years.
Adam: And it’s sitting at 46%.
Adam: So what does that mean?
Adam: It means that in this general study and the research, members are saying, 46% of members are saying they are active in all their programs, which is a little bit of a sobering statistic, because what about the other, what’s missing for us?
Adam: So when I put it out to clients, I say, how active is your base?
Adam: If 46% is the general population, are you doing better or are you doing worse?
Adam: And I think that’s my statistic of the day.
Paula: Fantastic, Adam.
Paula: I love that, actually, because it is very hard for any one brand to independently know how well are we doing.
Paula: So great, we might be making progress over time, but that really does give a global insight.
Paula: So thank you very much for that.
Adam: And I just end that off with a little quote, which keeps me honest with this one, which is, volume is for vanity, activity is for sanity.
Paula: Okay, love it.
Paula: Great.
Paula: I can hear you’ve said that one before, Adam.
Adam: I have because it just keeps you grounded.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: Well, we all need to stay grounded, particularly where we are right now.
Paula: So this is brilliant.
Paula: And I know what you did was you set out to capture 119 customer loyalty ideas, as we said.
Paula: Once you got to that number, you categorized all of them into nine key themes.
Paula: So let me just summarize for listeners exactly what those themes are.
Paula: And then we can get into discussing our favorite ideas within each of the nine categories, if that’s okay.
Paula: Sure.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: So first of all, strategy.
Paula: Second of all, data analysis.
Paula: Thirdly, the program structure.
Paula: The fourth area is rewards and benefits.
Paula: Then we’re going to talk about experience, communication, community, team, and finally, customer service.
Paula: So loads of ideas.
Paula: I’m sure there’ll be plenty we agree on, some that we disagree on, in terms of our favorites within each one.
Paula: So let me just get straight into the first category, Adam.
Paula: So you’ve categorized it as strategy.
Paula: So what can program operators do to review their strategy, innovate, pivot or reposition their program, review investment and program financial modeling, proposition or business operations?
Paula: My goodness, there’s a huge amount in that alone.
Paula: So ideas number one to 21.
Paula: Tell me, what was your favorite idea to beat COVID-19 in terms of strategy?
Adam: Yeah, well, that was the hardest area to classify because so many people had this bigger picture and used words around taking a step back and reviewing things.
Adam: And I put those under strategy, hence the description covering so many areas.
Paula: Yeah.
Adam: My favorite one was number seven by a colleague of ours, Bill Hannifin.
Adam: He’s out of The Wise Marketer in the US.
Adam: And I’m not going to read his whole insight, but I loved the way he expressed it, and he said something to the effect of the traditional financial benefits from a loyalty model are about creating incrementality and reducing attrition.
Adam: And then he said, while we continue towards a solution within the whole pandemic, he said it’s all about retention, and retention rather than driving incrementality and reducing attrition, and we can debate the terms, but he said retention efforts should fall under the heading of helpful communications, life hacks, and time-saving services.
Adam: So he gave a great little description.
Adam: It covered a lot, but I saw it as a strategic view of how to approach the challenges that we’re in.
Adam: So that was my favorite.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Well, yes, we’re all friends with Bill, and he has some great strategic insights.
Paula: So a brilliant one to start off with.
Paula: Within the whole heading of strategy, I actually had two, and I couldn’t decide between them.
Paula: So I’m going to just go through both of my favorite ones.
Paula: The first one is a lady, Anya Dragovic, who I don’t actually personally know, but I loved what she said.
Paula: She literally said, We need to pivot.
Paula: Think outside of the box and business as usual.
Paula: And she mentions that many brands jumped the bandwagon to do this early.
Paula: So Louis Vuitton started making hand sanitizer, Zara made scrubs and personal protection equipment for Spain’s hospitals.
Paula: And she also made the point that you don’t have to be first.
Paula: That’s not the point.
Paula: Your customers will still recognize your efforts, even if you do it two months from now.
Paula: So I thought that was a very generous way of thinking.
Paula: So a really lovely idea that everyone should be prepared to pivot.
Adam: And yeah, I mean, again, as I say, to choose out of the 21 your best, they’re also smartly expressed.
Adam: That is a great one.
Adam: And there are so many more examples now coming through of brands using their imagination.
Adam: And I hear a lot of this word pivot, but for me, it’s more about reposition to find a new point of difference where you can.
Adam: And I’m okay with the word, but you’re right.
Adam: I love that one.
Adam: What was your other favorite?
Paula: My other is our friend down in South Africa, Dion Olivier.
Adam: What number was that one?
Paula: He’s number 10.
Paula: And what Dion suggested is that plan for a mini relaunch when lockdown is lifted.
Paula: So take the time now as a program owner to revitalize our propositions, the look and feel, and maybe the customer value proposition elements themselves.
Paula: So basically, once the lockdown ends, the result will be a load of hype and opportunity around a shiny new toy to hit the market.
Paula: I just thought that was a lovely idea and a very good use of time.
Adam: Yeah, again, it’s so hard to choose, but beautifully expressed, a short little idea.
Adam: You know, some of them had 100 words and some had 20 words, all deep in insight.
Adam: And actually, out of the strategy area, one of the things that I realized is that businesses need a model or a framework.
Adam: And just briefly, off the back of that, I wrote this blog around taking three steps to refresh and reposition your loyalty program for renewed reality.
Adam: And took a lot of those ideas and combined them into the strategic framework, which is a blog that people can go find on my site.
Adam: But it was just quickly, I’ll just briefly summarize it, was take step one, assess to validate.
Adam: So take the pulse of your program to validate its current state.
Adam: Step two was adapt to reposition, refresh and recalibrate for the new reality.
Adam: And step three was activate to stimulate, which was activate to stimulate the relevant response.
Adam: Now, there’s a lot more detail underneath it, but all I’m sharing with you is after all these brilliant ideas, I’m now sharing back with the community the strategic framework to help them.
Adam: But there we go.
Adam: So, yeah, I loved your second choice.
Paula: Fantastic.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: And again, we’ll make sure to link in the show notes to your own website, which is thepointofloyalty.com.au, if I’m correct.
Adam: Thank you.
Paula: OK.
Paula: See, I actually know it now.
Paula: It’s just brilliant.
Paula: OK.
Paula: So the second category in this e-book is around data analysis.
Paula: And you described this Adam as analyze and segment your base and profile to understand your members by value.
Paula: So tell me, which of these particular ideas, 22 to 41, was your favorite one to help beat COVID-19?
Adam: Well, it’s our friend Dion.
Adam: You beat me to this one again.
Adam: So he’s number 31 in this data analysis.
Adam: And again, it looks like he came through winning in a couple of cases.
Adam: But he said, use the time to clean up your database and marketing permissions.
Adam: Execute proactive interventions focused on validating existing contact details.
Adam: And at the same time, to harvest additional demographic and other data.
Adam: Use your team that are not in store or IE working from home to drive these connections, starting with your very high value customers, so that in the result, members are feeling appreciated with the opportunity to engage and your data health is being improved.
Adam: So I just thought that was wonderfully expressed.
Paula: It really is.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I know we’re all so busy day to day that, you know, checking the health of your data is something that we very rarely step back and take the time to do.
Paula: So absolutely.
Paula: A lot of operations are on hold or just literally on standby for now.
Paula: So it is a perfect time to do that.
Paula: So again, well done, Dion.
Paula: So it was number 24.
Paula: And so basically that’s Angela Cobb, who said that now is also a good opportunity for businesses to set their marketing up for success by auditing and optimizing their data and automation capabilities.
Paula: So aggregating data, assessing data utilization, and setting up governance for cross channel delivery, building frameworks for clear and consistent communications, and establishing reporting rhythms.
Paula: And I think what I particularly liked about what Angela said there, Adam, is the governance of cross channel delivery.
Paula: I think there’s probably a lot of new channels that are being used for delivery right now.
Paula: So again, they may not be part of your overall reporting framework.
Paula: So I thought it was just a really good insight there, because fundamentally, we have a lot of good data in so many programs, but maybe not consistently throughout every single channel that we operate in.
Adam: Yeah, good pick up that one.
Adam: Angela wrote a few others in the whole strategy document in the whole 119, and she seems to have a great insight to strategy of programs.
Adam: So yeah, good pick up.
Paula: Excellent.
Paula: So the third area then is program structure.
Paula: So assess the structure and evaluate member status and tiers.
Paula: And this is ideas 42 to 45.
Paula: So just a few in this section.
Paula: So tell me, what was your favorite one here?
Adam: Well, mine was sort of borrowed off Mark Ross Smith.
Adam: And yes, I put my name against it, but it’s the essence of his article around should airlines and hotels extend elite status in times of crisis.
Adam: And in essence, in terms of program structure, and every program, all programs are different, but fundamentally, the ones that seem to have a lot of focus during this process are the hotels and airlines, all of those which have huge members and status-based offerings or tiers, and what would they be doing for their members in terms of maintaining status, keeping tiers when you actually can’t behave in the way you would normally.
Adam: So there’s any number of articles of all of what all the airlines are doing, what all the hotels are doing.
Adam: And whilst there might not be big volume in the ideas here, I think that whole program structure needs to be looked at.
Adam: What are your thoughts?
Paula: My thoughts are exactly the same, Adam.
Paula: It would be remiss if we didn’t comment on this is the absolute minimum, I think, that any loyalty program should do.
Paula: So I think pretty much, as you said, the travel industry was the first to recognize that a period of grace was absolutely essential because it’s nobody’s choice to start to behave differently.
Paula: So we need to respect that and absolutely critical to include it.
Paula: And the one I went for actually was the one directly after that.
Paula: So idea number 43.
Paula: And I’ve actually seen this done, you know, many years ago, completely in a different context, back in the city of Dublin, actually in a very small village.
Paula: And it comes from Alexander Sussall, who’s another CLMP, so another certified loyalty marketing professional.
Paula: And what Alexander suggested, he basically said, if you were in a small loyalty program, try to rethink your strategy.
Paula: And particularly post COVID, most communities should install a loyalty scheme for local dealers.
Paula: So try to design a concept and approach your city managers.
Paula: And he suggested calling it community loyalty.
Paula: So some of the considerations around loyalty, sorry, enrollment strategy, earning strategy, reward strategy, what loyalty engine they could use, so that it’s easy for dealers and managers.
Paula: But I just think it comes back to, I suppose, an overall appreciation of our loyalty community, like just literally locally.
Paula: So what can we do in our local community that we might not have been loyal to previously?
Adam: Yeah, and I just agree with you.
Adam: He took another approach.
Adam: He went into sort of a micro rather than a macro, and it’s a beautiful idea.
Adam: And you’re right.
Adam: Everything has, and we’ll talk about community in a minute, but it just seems that in this new world, new situation, there’s been this big focus on helping and serving more than ourselves, to a certain extent, and we could discuss and debate that.
Adam: But I do like that one as well.
Paula: Fantastic.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: Okay, so moving on to rewards and benefits.
Paula: How can we provide new or different rewards and benefits that are relevant to customers’ lives?
Paula: And this is Ideas 46 through to 67.
Adam: So my favorite here is number 56.
Adam: And this, I think the gentleman, his name is Clemens Sehetner.
Adam: Sehetner, I think he runs the Adidas program.
Adam: Oh, very good.
Adam: Out of Germany called Runtastic.
Adam: And he said, we are currently offering our premium subscriber model free of charge for three months.
Adam: With no strings attached.
Adam: Hopefully, this will help people to stay physically and mentally fit during these days.
Adam: So this is the idea under the rewards and benefits.
Adam: If I’m correct in that he’s running that program, it’s now looking at the reward structure and saying, what can we do for our member base in terms of the benefits that we offer?
Adam: And he’s giving sort of a subscriber model for free.
Adam: So the greater purpose is that people will be physical and mentally fit.
Adam: So I love that one.
Paula: Oh, my goodness.
Paula: Well, I mean, we’ve often talked about vitality on the show, for example, and that whole concept about shared value.
Paula: So yeah, I think COVID-19 is bringing through a bigger opportunity for integrity, I think, is what I’m feeling.
Paula: And that’s a really good example of that.
Paula: So yeah, so definitely need to think that one through.
Paula: And the idea that I thought I liked here the most, Adam, was number 46, where it literally is yours, actually.
Paula: A lot of ideas in here.
Paula: But it’s very simple.
Paula: But what you’ve basically suggested is consider a members-only free or reduced delivery offer for a defined period.
Paula: So your members can still purchase from you online and stay at home.
Paula: And while this might not help store visits, it will still keep the option of sales coming in.
Paula: So I think a lot of retailers have struggled over the years and probably still struggle with, you know, should we charge for delivery online is supposed to be cheaper and the whole debate about whether it should be free or whether it should be charged.
Paula: But it’s an opportunity, I think, for a point of differentiation.
Paula: So that’s certainly what I’m hearing you were suggesting.
Adam: Yeah, exactly.
Adam: And, you know, it’s interesting if I think back to the time you asked me in the beginning, when did this all start?
Adam: I actually wrote an article before the pandemic really hit a peak when the lockdown started.
Adam: And I just put out a whole range of ideas just randomly before I even did the COVID-199 report.
Adam: And it just was dawned on me then because I was sitting in a co-working space one day, and there were a lot of retailers, the shopping center was still open.
Adam: I was thinking, oh my gosh, they’re going to start closing.
Adam: They’re going to start closing.
Adam: What are they going to do?
Adam: And that’s when the context of the focus on online because it’s about to explode.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And actually, it reminded me of a funny quote that I think probably a lot of people have seen at this point.
Paula: I saw it on LinkedIn where we both spent a lot of time.
Paula: But it was, you know, this discussion around what is responsible for your digital transformation or who is responsible for your digital transformation.
Paula: And it was a list of options.
Paula: Is it your CIO?
Paula: Is it CEO?
Paula: And, you know, option three is it’s COVID-19.
Paula: And for all of us, what has driven our digital transformation?
Paula: Actually, we kind of had to.
Adam: And that’s just been phenomenal.
Adam: I mean, there’s so many cases.
Adam: There’s a retailer here in Australia called the Ascent Group.
Adam: And I can say it because it’s public knowledge.
Adam: But they recently highlighted that their online sales went from 200.
Adam: And they’re a massive group of footwear business with a huge retail presence as well as online.
Adam: But they’re online before the pandemic was at about $200,000 a day.
Adam: And it exploded to $1.1 million per day.
Paula: My goodness.
Adam: And I can give you the reference to the article for your show notes afterwards.
Adam: But it’s just phenomenal how it’s grown.
Paula: It really is.
Paula: Yeah, we might be in the wrong business, Adam.
Paula: Fair enough.
Paula: Moving on then to section five is around experience, which is around evaluate the program experience and enhance engagement.
Paula: So ideas 68 through to 70.
Paula: So again, just a couple of ideas.
Paula: So under the heading of experience, Adam, what was your particular favorite?
Adam: Well, this whole word experience encompasses the whole program, everything.
Adam: So we all know when we talk about an experience with a program, it’s that that’s the actual engagement, as they say.
Adam: So whilst there weren’t a lot of ideas in this category, there were sprinkled around all the other ideas, which is part of what happened in this process.
Adam: But the one I like is number 70, which is quite a long one by Attila Olgun.
Adam: And in summary, I’ll summarize it, but in essence, talking about gamification and creating badges and a process within programs for collecting something or unlocking something, creating more.
Adam: And you use aviation as an example.
Adam: I’m not going to read out the whole one, but what I loved about this experience category is this gamification aspect.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And actually, I should have said it earlier, Adam, but obviously this report is completely free of charge for anyone listening.
Paula: So again, anyone looking to download all of these ideas will make sure it’s very easy for them to do that.
Paula: So yes, it is a long one, but a very good one.
Paula: And I’m a big fan of gamification.
Paula: And I think we all need a bit more fun and like this around us right now.
Paula: So a great example.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: The one I liked here, Adam, that you captured is idea number 69 from Phil Rubin.
Paula: And essentially what he said, I think is very simple and again, very true.
Paula: So right now, it’s less about the points and the offers and much more how the member realizes value from the brand that helps them through the crisis.
Paula: So give them the best experience and be the best brand for your customers.
Paula: So as an example, if you’re a merchant, prioritize their requests and fulfillment.
Paula: So, you know, particularly if you’re selling something that will immediately help them in this crisis, your members should absolutely be fulfilled first.
Paula: So it struck a chord, I’ll tell you, Adam, because, you know, we have, you know, like so many people had to set up working from home.
Paula: So my fiance was, you know, in a normal office environment and we’ve placed online orders and we are members of a loyalty program with a furniture retailer.
Paula: Yet I think we’re three and a half weeks waiting for the equipment to arrive.
Paula: So, you know, you can kind of see where actually that’s not happening.
Paula: And, you know, again, I’m sure that retailer is struggling like everybody else to keep up.
Paula: But it’s really true that this is an opportunity for your loyalty members to be given that opportunity to be looked after first and foremost.
Adam: Absolutely.
Adam: And your example is very valid and I can see that happening as well.
Adam: So that’s good.
Adam: Yeah, well done.
Paula: Great.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: So number six, then, is communication.
Paula: I think this had an awful lot of ideas, one that we’re both, I suppose, very passionate about.
Paula: So focusing on relevant and clear communication with a sensitive tone, which is actually a very important feature as well, Adam.
Paula: So tell us, what was your favorite idea under the heading of communication?
Adam: Yeah, this had quite a number of ideas and we’re all in the communication game, no matter what part of marketing or loyalty we’re in.
Adam: And for me, number 78, David Canty, which he is a loyalty professional, I think, out of the UK.
Adam: And he said something really profound.
Adam: He said, I do think brands need to keep humanity at the center of everything they do, in how they communicate and how they execute.
Adam: Loyalty programs can be their biggest asset in challenging times, but it’s important to ensure you connect in an empathetic way with all of your customers and be ready for when we emerge.
Adam: He does carry on, but his language is beautiful, and he focuses on the tone of communication, which is critical in times when people are challenged.
Paula: Yes, absolutely.
Paula: And it’s actually a general point, Adam, that I think probably not enough of loyalty professionals pick up on.
Paula: And actually, marketing professionals, it’s not just loyalty.
Paula: And for me, bizarrely, the one example, I always remember noticing this with was Groupon.
Paula: I think Groupon was the first brand that really developed a style and tone of communication that talked to me as a consumer in a way that felt really, really relevant.
Paula: So I think overall communication and the style and tone is emerging as a point of differentiation for brands that really invest in getting it right.
Paula: So I think it’s a brilliant point.
Paula: I actually chose exactly the same example as you.
Paula: So well done, David.
Paula: And I think you’re right.
Paula: I think David is British, but he is, I believe, based in the United States.
Paula: So we’ll make sure to tag David as well in this.
Paula: But you’re right.
Paula: It was the first sentence that got me in the idea.
Paula: So I do think brands need to keep humanity at the center of everything they do.
Paula: So it really doesn’t matter, I suppose, how you do that, as long as you’re coming from that mindset.
Paula: So I thought that was lovely.
Adam: Yeah, and yet there’s still so many other great ones in there.
Adam: But you’re right.
Adam: It looks like we were both in agreement.
Paula: So coming on then to community, how can we help community or cause-related giving?
Paula: So this was ideas number 99 through to 113.
Paula: So what was your favorite community idea in terms of beating COVID-19?
Adam: Yeah, and in a community, again, so many ideas about giving back and giving to others.
Adam: And I actually have the term about turning a selfish approach to a selfless approach.
Paula: Okay.
Adam: And I think actually loyalty programs have suddenly come to light in the space.
Adam: So my number is, and I will quickly, I think, yes, there it is.
Adam: It’s by Ian Pringle, number 105.
Adam: And he talks about the idea, I would add, is using loyalty points to support charities at this critical time.
Adam: In good times, loyalty programs provide a thank you to customers, but in difficult times, they can allow customers to thank and support others.
Paula: Brilliant.
Adam: And just some research I did further, he also did a big release in the UK, and I think it was with a group called Good Causes, or something to that effect, if I’m right.
Adam: Four Good Causes.
Adam: Thank you, if you could make sure that’s the right link there.
Adam: But that whole aspect of using your points for a greater purpose.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Great.
Paula: And I’m a huge fan both of Ian himself.
Paula: Again, he’s a very well-respected loyalty practitioner, also has a loyalty podcast, so shout out to Ian.
Paula: And both Ian and I have had Four Good Causes, that particular company, on our podcasts.
Paula: So Crispin Rogers is the founder, chief executive of that program.
Paula: So certainly doing some great work.
Paula: But I think this idea is emerging in lots of different markets, Adam, because it’s probably the biggest one, as you said, that brands are just realizing that members of loyalty programs don’t just want to be selfish.
Paula: They actually do want to be selfless, not exclusively.
Paula: It’s probably a balance of both.
Paula: But I know Brian Almeida, I believe he’s based in India, is also developing concepts and strategies in the charity space.
Paula: So I picked idea number 100, and Brian literally says, this is a good opportunity to contribute to society, ask members to donate their points to support the fight against COVID-19, donate an equivalent number of points, and offer all expiring points to charity.
Paula: So I mean, I actually think it hadn’t struck me before, but actually there could even be an opportunity for loyalty program operators to take that initiative on behalf of members if the points are expiring and say, look, all the points expiring this month are going to go to this charity.
Paula: So I had thought about it from the individual perspective, but I think Brian is pointing out that loyalty program managers can do that as well.
Adam: Yes, and I’ve been chatting briefly through LinkedIn with our colleague Dion, Dion Olivia from South Africa, because he’s in South Africa doing something called or supporting an initiative there called Loyalty for Solidarity, which is supporting that same sort of thing where pushing loyalty programs and motivating them not only to use expired points, but even do things like a two for one.
Adam: So for every point that a member decides to donate the loyalty program can double or match to boost the donation.
Adam: So there’s some terrific work done all over the world and around the space.
Paula: Fantastic.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And that’s an idea.
Paula: I’ve probably only seen that matching idea done maybe in terms of employee charity in the past.
Paula: So that’s a very familiar concept, but you’re right.
Paula: Now is the time to step forward and do it in a much bigger and more scalable way.
Adam: Yep.
Paula: Great.
Paula: So coming up to the last two areas then, Adam.
Paula: So the idea of team.
Paula: So the category was invest in your team, their belief and buy into customer loyalty program.
Paula: So tell me your thoughts on this category.
Adam: Well, I was disappointed only from the personal point of view that I think team need a lot more focus within loyalty program.
Adam: So strategically, if I just for a minute step out of COVID-119 report, in developing a loyalty program, there are three fundamental pillars.
Adam: One is it’s got to be profitable and sustainable to the business.
Adam: Second, it’s got to be meaningful and desirable to the members.
Adam: And the third in my strategy model is creating belief and buy into the team by the team.
Adam: Now, whilst there was only, and everyone will see in this report, there was only one idea.
Adam: It just, to me, I think if we step back from this, is that brands and businesses, and especially if you’ve got a program and a team, is we need to invest into them being in love with the program.
Adam: And there was only one idea, as you know.
Adam: So you and I most probably have only one to choose from.
Adam: And Nathan Bowen, thank you to you for saying, for calling it out.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I even loved what he said is if you’re fortunate enough as a business to keep your staff, because also that is a true blessing, you know, how many people are losing people that they value, that they really are devastated to lose.
Paula: So I really liked, again, the humanity coming through there.
Adam: Yeah.
Adam: And I’d like to read it out because you just said the first part, but he says you’re right.
Adam: He says, if you’re fortunate enough as a business to keep staff on, it’s time to invest in your team and the team DNA, as he says, educating staff on the loyalty program to the staff for customer engagement.
Adam: Prepare for relaunch with the loyalty at the heart.
Adam: So he does he does express it nicely.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: But actually, I just actually want to acknowledge your own point as well, Adam, because I’ve looked at your strategic model and your website is incredibly comprehensive.
Paula: And I know how much you value that belief.
Paula: But you’re probably the first person that has really elevated it to that level.
Paula: So we all included as part of our strategy documents.
Paula: We all talk about the moment of truth at the point of sale.
Paula: But to really put it on a level, you know, with it working for the member, working for the business, you know, it really is down to that moment of truth for the belief to come through.
Paula: So without it, we’re actually lost.
Paula: So well done for elevating it to that level.
Adam: Well, thank you for that and giving me the opportunity to express my passion around that space, because before I was locked down, I did a mystery shop and I walk the streets and I go join programs all day every day.
Adam: I’m a bit of a loyalty tragic.
Adam: And as you are and many others are, and it’s just when I go into the store and I say just randomly, oh, have you got a loyalty program?
Adam: And it’s the difference in the people that say, yes, we have.
Adam: And this is how it works.
Adam: And this is how you benefit.
Adam: And how they say to me in 10 words or less.
Adam: So I know time is precious, but they get it out, they get the proposition, they get the benefit out, they make me excited.
Paula: Yeah.
Adam: And that’s versus others who just say, yes, would you like to join?
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And like you, I use the term loyalty junkie.
Paula: It’s exactly the same thing.
Paula: But my moment of evaluating an awful lot of programs is with that one person, which is probably very unfair to the loyalty program overall.
Paula: But as you said, in 10 words or less, give me the why.
Paula: This is my data, it’s my time, it’s my permission.
Paula: So I’m signing up for something for the long haul.
Paula: So you need to make it worth my while.
Paula: So yeah, well done, you.
Paula: So we must compare notes on that again in the future.
Adam: I love that.
Paula: Great.
Paula: So the last area within this report then, Adam, is customer service.
Paula: So tell me, what was your favorite idea?
Paula: There’s only a couple in here, but let’s finish up with this whole area.
Adam: Well, I can’t go past yours, Paula, because, and with being genuine, because you really came in and provided this idea.
Adam: And even though perhaps other people had said it, it was very much about the way you just said, you know, get back to the basics.
Adam: I’m not going to read your whole idea, but you just said, go back to the basics, pick up the phone and talk to your members, your customers.
Adam: I think even though you say you can’t phone a million customers and you can’t phone a hundred thousand, but there’s certain ones you can, and you can spread the load amongst your team.
Adam: And I just think you came in from a very human side.
Adam: So I loved yours, and it was a bonus idea put to the 119 report.
Adam: So thank you.
Paula: Great.
Paula: No problem at all.
Paula: I know I was a little late to the party, Adam, but I always get there in the end.
Paula: So thank you for acknowledging that.
Paula: And it’s come up in a couple of podcasts as well where I think customers just really appreciate that it’s a non-scalable idea.
Paula: So if they are on the receiving end of that phone call, it really does matter.
Paula: And the word of mouth, again, it comes through and there’s a lot of integrity.
Paula: So great.
Paula: OK, so as we said, 119 customer loyalty ideas to beat COVID-19.
Paula: We will make sure that that’s super easy and accessible on the show notes for this show.
Paula: But before we wrap up, the next area that we want to discuss is something I know is one of your kind of core products and a huge piece of work that you do every year in the Australian loyalty market, which is talking about your own report, which I think looks at annual research in Australian loyalty programs, what’s changing, what’s emerging.
Paula: So it’s called For Love or Money.
Paula: So tell us about the report and what’s coming through in this year’s report.
Adam: Thanks for that opportunity, Paula.
Adam: For Love or Money is a passion project for me that I started in 2013.
Adam: commissioned independently, so an independent research company is commissioned.
Adam: I write the strategy, come up with the areas to look for, but it’s all about all my attitude of being curious and always learning.
Adam: So what can I continuously learn from the community out there?
Adam: And so it is a statistically relevant study, and I’ve been eight benchmark studies in Australia, and I did a New Zealand version last year.
Adam: Well, this year, and it’s always interesting to try and find new areas to benchmark and look for.
Adam: And whilst I look for changes and trends, this year I look for insights on new ways to reward members.
Adam: So I believe programs need to evolve away from transactional.
Adam: And I’ve heard you speak to many professionals about from transactional to emotional connections.
Adam: But this year I put forward some really different ways of being rewarded.
Adam: So, and vitality is one of those examples where you get rewards for health benefits.
Adam: But in Australia, there’s some new initiatives around what they’re called superannuation, where you can get cash back rewards to solve your, to save for the future, to put back into your superannuation.
Adam: Which is solving a problem.
Adam: There’s also recycling loyalty.
Adam: So where you get rewards for recycling.
Adam: There’s a few other ways that even saving money on your telco bills, saving cash back on your telco, your insurance and various other, making your life a bit better, I suppose.
Adam: So I looked at a whole range of ways to see what consumers thought about different ways of being rewarded.
Adam: And some of those results.
Adam: And then it’s all the other standard, you know, interacting with a program.
Adam: I looked at things like, do you join programs from a, is it the money, is it the time, or is it the ego that you want to be rewarded on, the psychology.
Adam: I looked at the psychology of earning and redeeming rewards, that moment of truth with redemption.
Adam: There’s six sections, 25 areas, there’s a lot of insights.
Adam: And even if it’s Australian based, over the years, brands and businesses are accessing the research, even if they then use the questioning in their markets, that’s okay.
Adam: But I keep learning.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Tell me, so what’s the scale of the research?
Paula: You’ve outsourced it to an agency, which gives a massive amount of independence and credibility, and I can imagine it’s still a huge amount of work.
Paula: So you’re obviously an incredibly busy man, Adam, but what’s the scale of the research and who is it conducted with?
Adam: Yes, so it’s a thousand, it’s over a thousand Australian adults over the age of 18.
Adam: It has a 95 percent confidence level and a 3 percent margin of error.
Adam: So from a research point of view, it’s robust enough to give us a sentiment within a margin of error that the results are a good indication of what the consumers and members of programs think about it.
Adam: Now, there are the people who, it’s an online poll, so the people who come in there are what I call a broad quota of people across the population, male and female mix, different age groups.
Adam: I look at the generation, so we looked at Gen Z, Gen Y, Gen X and Burma’s.
Adam: We looked at different income levels.
Adam: We look at metro and regional.
Adam: My confidence level with the study after doing it for eight years is that it’s robust enough to give us a great insight.
Paula: So what were you impressed by or what did you notice?
Paula: I loved the talk of superannuation.
Paula: I loved rewards for recycling.
Paula: I think that’s a massive opportunity in many markets.
Paula: Maybe even after the show, keen to talk to you about the business model and all of that.
Paula: It’s something this part of the world, I think, really needs.
Paula: But what other kind of trends came through that impressed you, Adam?
Adam: that specific area or in general?
Paula: Just in general, Adam, actually, because as you said, it’s six different areas, so you probably have a completely different piece that became your favorite point.
Adam: There are so many, but the one I’m finding fascinating and everybody will know, especially since you’ve had people talking about, should we say, technology integration and making the life easy with card linking and so on.
Adam: But we’ve seen a dramatic decline in the loyalty card over the, since I’ve been doing it for four or five years.
Adam: So the loyalty card has dropped from 81% to 47% of members saying they want to have a card.
Adam: And the digital connections, mobile app with payment integration, mobile app with payment separate, just identifying yourself with your email and paying.
Adam: So all those are all significantly increasing.
Adam: So I’m seeing some great trends there which we would all think that they’re happening, but I’ve got some validation.
Adam: And then there’s a range of, I’ve done a whole area on data and privacy and personalization.
Adam: And it’s fascinating this year for the very first time I looked at our programs improving their use of data from a personalization point of view.
Adam: So getting the members’ view.
Adam: And there’s a whole section on that, which is a new benchmark study.
Adam: And perhaps just to finish off on one of the insights that I do every year, which is what I call the Net Data Trust Score.
Adam: So I’ve created a question, and I’ll read it out so your listeners can get a sense, which is asking members how much do they trust the loyalty program with the use of their personal details and data to create a score, what I call a Net Data Trust Score.
Adam: So from 0 to 10, where it’s similar to some other scores around there, where you give a score for, I don’t trust the brand with my data at all, all the way to most trusting.
Adam: And there’s a problem still.
Adam: There’s still a challenge with trust and use of data.
Adam: So it’s sitting at minus 33, which if you know and understand how this scoring works, it’s not great.
Adam: But it’s improved since last year, but it’s not great.
Adam: And I think that’s just a wake up call for all of us in Loyalty Land just to remember whose data is it anyway, and how do you use it with respect and sensitivity.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: And can I ask you on that one, Adam, are you using a similar framework as the Net Promoter Score?
Paula: Is that what I’m hearing in terms of OK.
Paula: Yeah, so most listeners will be familiar with that.
Paula: Obviously, it’s been around for a long time.
Paula: I really like the way you structured it as well.
Paula: For a couple of reasons, first of all, there’s a familiar framework.
Paula: So anything from minus 100, I think, is up to plus 100.
Paula: And I was checking recently, actually, what is a good score.
Paula: So I guess anything over zero is obviously a good score, which you’re not finding is coming through, therefore, in terms of the trust with data at the moment.
Paula: And again, just for listeners overall, I was recapping from my own knowledge.
Paula: Anything over 50 is really where you want to be on that score.
Paula: So I’m sure you’re applying the same learning.
Paula: So I think that’s very insightful, Adam.
Paula: And I’ll also just refer back to a program that was also just KPMG, actually, I had on the show before, as well, as you would know.
Paula: But they talked about a similar point, Adam, where actually it’s not really about the points or rewards, actually, for most people.
Paula: Corporate trust, which I know is different to the specific trust within the data in the program.
Paula: But this whole area of trust is something that you’re picking up on, which I think is incredible.
Paula: So definitely a lot of value in there, and I’ll be keen to see how that’s emerging over the years.
Adam: Yes, me too.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: And then just finally, within this overall For Love Our Money report, which I know this is a report that you actually do charge for, am I right, Adam?
Adam: Correct.
Adam: So I give a free executive summary.
Adam: So when I release this report, which I’m not sure exactly the date of your podcast going live, but it should be within the week of the 11th of May, which is a couple of 10 days away, I should have it live.
Adam: But yes, there’s a paid version and there’s a free version, and people can choose whichever they want.
Paula: Excellent, excellent.
Paula: So I think we’ve covered an amazing amount today, Adam.
Paula: Was there anything else that you wanted to cover before we wrap up?
Adam: No, I feel as if it’s been one of the really in-depth conversation, a two-way conversation with you.
Adam: Thank you for digesting the 119 report.
Adam: I just feel as if this report, 119, it is free.
Adam: There’s loads of ideas, no matter what business or brand it is.
Adam: You’re a big program, you’re a small program, you’re a big business, you’re a small business.
Adam: We’ve all got customers.
Adam: There’s any one or a strategic or tactical idea.
Adam: Sit down with a cup of coffee for 20 minutes, and you’ll find an idea.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: It is all about inspiration, and we particularly need that at this time.
Paula: So Adam Posner, chief executive officer of The Point of Loyalty in Australia, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Adam: Thanks very much Paula.
Paula: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com, and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.
Paula: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform, find Let’s Talk Loyalty and subscribe.
Paula: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews, and thanks again for supporting the show.
Paula: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.
Paula: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training, both online and in workshops around the world through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 150 executives in 18 countries as certified Loyalty Marketing Professionals.
Paula: For more information, check out www.thewisemarketeer.com and www.loyaltyacademy.org.
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