Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.
Paula: This show is sponsored by Comark, a global provider of software products and business services that can be used in many professional applications, including driving customer loyalty.
Paula: Comark is also known for providing loyalty experts with opportunities to share their thoughts and ideas.
Paula: Its next webinar, titled Loyalty Marketing Strategies to Win More Customers in 2021, will take place on October 7th.
Paula: For more information, please check out comark.com.
Paula: So welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty, and I am delighted to be back in the world of interviewing loyalty practitioners who are experts, literally by virtue of their day-to-day job.
Paula: Today, I am delighted to be joined by Camilo Courtenay, who is the loyalty product manager for VeryMe Rewards, which is the loyalty program for Vodafone UK.
Paula: Now, for listeners around the world, as you can imagine, Vodafone, first and foremost, is an extraordinary brand and actually has a very interesting legacy.
Paula: Before I officially welcome Camilo on the show, I’ll give you a couple of company highlights which I saw on the Vodafone website.
Paula: First of all, in 1985, Vodafone UK made the very first UK mobile phone call.
Paula: So, certainly very innovative and they followed that in 1992 by sending the world’s first text message.
Paula: So, an extraordinary legacy already and doing some fantastic work already even now in terms of their loyalty proposition.
Paula: So, let’s get into an exciting discussion and let me welcome Camilo Courtenay to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Camilo: Hi Paula, very happy to be here.
Paula: Great, great.
Paula: And I should also tell listeners that it’s week two of a new role for you on the Very Me program.
Paula: So, I introduced you as the loyalty product manager, but tell us about the work you’re currently doing for Vodafone.
Camilo: Yeah, that’s right, Paula.
Camilo: So, I’m currently week two into covering some maternity leave.
Camilo: So, I’m leading the loyalty team in Vodafone UK, as well as kind of my previous role as product manager.
Camilo: So, doing it for a couple of months, and again, a brilliant opportunity and an exciting time to be doing it as well.
Paula: Wonderful, wonderful.
Paula: And we will get into talking a lot about the proposition.
Paula: And in fact, I know VeryMe has won some awards in terms of the loyalty magazine awards.
Paula: So, there’s really some good recognition that’s coming through, I suppose, internationally as well.
Paula: But before we get into the whole program, Camilo, can you tell me first and foremost, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?
Camilo: Yeah, so I remember this one, because I went to a Loyalty Dynamics Masterclass back in March, run by Mando Connect and YouGov and Charlie, who you’ve had on the podcast before, was presenting a preview of their white paper.
Camilo: And I remember it because I think it was a week before we then went into lockdown and were all sent home from our offices.
Camilo: And that was probably the last time I saw most of my colleagues and agency partners as well.
Camilo: So it kind of stuck in my head.
Camilo: But for me, it was around a third of young people are not members of any loyalty program at all.
Camilo: And I think we kind of work in the industry and we assume everyone…
Camilo: We build a program and everyone will join it and everyone gets as excited as we do about them.
Camilo: But I think what we see is obviously young people are often really disengaged with loyalty programs.
Camilo: They don’t join, they don’t really know whether they’re a member, which is probably even worse.
Camilo: And I think they’re often just a bit disinterested.
Camilo: So for me, that’s a really significant stat and I think something that we should be really, really focused on.
Paula: Yeah, I think that’s brilliant actually, Camilo, because you’re absolutely right.
Paula: We are spending so much money.
Paula: I know Mando Connect do amazing work for you guys.
Paula: So thanks again for Charlie for introducing us to each other.
Paula: But at the end of the day, there is a generational shift going on.
Paula: And particularly, I’m sure with the demographics of the Vodafone business, I’m sure you really need to be focused on what younger generations are looking for.
Paula: So yeah, really interesting statistic.
Paula: And what I loved actually, even looking back through your background, Camilo, is you’ve spent, I think it is now a total of about nine years working in the loyalty industry.
Camilo: That’s making me feel quite old, but yeah.
Paula: Well, I genuinely I feel the same because I’m the same.
Paula: I think I’m now a total of 11 years or maybe just coming up to that.
Paula: But it is quite unusual, I suppose, to have such a long time in this very niche industry.
Paula: So I’d love to just ask, you know, how did you get into the loyalty business and why is it that you’ve chosen to follow this particular path so directly now?
Camilo: So yeah, so I joined British Airways back in 2008 on their graduate program.
Camilo: So worked in the airport, worked in IT project management, and then in digital marketing.
Camilo: And then I got a little bit of exposure into their loyalty program, the executive club, and was doing a few projects related to that.
Camilo: And then a role came up in that team as a proposition manager.
Camilo: It was always an interesting area for me.
Camilo: And I kind of started in that team.
Camilo: And that was thinking up new features for the program, kind of managing existing propositions.
Camilo: At that time, we were just about to…
Camilo: We were working on launching a lifetime recognition program as well.
Camilo: So there was lots of exciting stuff that we were working on.
Camilo: And then an opportunity arose for me to go to Eurostar, which is the high-speed rail operator between UK and continental Europe.
Camilo: And it stood out to me as a great chance just to get a bit more, I suppose, responsibility in running a loyalty program.
Camilo: So as you can imagine, the BA airline loyalty programs have huge teams, and you get to work on a little bit of it.
Camilo: But at Eurostar, we were just a team of three, so it gave me great exposure in terms of all the operational side of running a loyalty program and the marketing side and everything.
Camilo: So much more a program, but really interesting and in itself providing a lot of challenges.
Camilo: And yeah, it’s just a fascinating industry, and it does blend brand marketing with real commercial aspects of marketing as well.
Camilo: So I suppose having done those two roles, I knew I always wanted to stay in the industry.
Camilo: But then I thought maybe it’s time to branch out a bit beyond travel and your traditional points programs into something a bit different.
Camilo: And I saw what Vodafone were planning, and it was something I got really excited about.
Camilo: And that’s kind of how I’ve ended up here.
Paula: Wonderful, wonderful.
Paula: Well, I mean, I love when people describe it as fascinating, Camilo, because I can hear the passion.
Paula: And as we said before we came on air, it’s really nice to talk to people who just love loyalty.
Camilo: And yeah, like I was saying to you, it’s not always the best dinner party conversation, but when you’re talking to someone who loves it just as much, it’s great.
Paula: Exactly.
Paula: We can geek out about our KPIs and our insights.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: So a lot of my regular listeners, actually Camilo, will know that I started in loyalty in the same industry as you.
Paula: So actually I also have a background in British Airways, but not in loyalty.
Paula: And I know their graduate program is exceptional, but I did some work for the O2 priority program in Ireland.
Paula: And that’s obviously been running in the UK for a long time.
Paula: So I know what you’re doing with VeryMe Rewards is very different and particularly some amazing recent innovations, which are the first in the UK.
Paula: And it can’t be many loyalty managers that get to launch something that hasn’t been done before in their industry.
Paula: So it’s really exciting what you’ve been working on.
Paula: So would you tell the listeners, first of all, the value proposition for the VeryMe program and then particularly the most recent innovation, which I think is only a month old.
Paula: So love to hear about those two things if you don’t mind.
Camilo: So VeryMe Rewards, it’s the loyalty program for Vodafone in the UK.
Camilo: So it’s available to all our pay monthly pay as you go and some of our enterprise customers as well.
Camilo: So it’s a relatively simple program by design.
Camilo: It’s designed to be a really kind of simple proposition.
Camilo: We don’t make you kind of jump through too many hurdles.
Camilo: We deliberately, I suppose, avoided points and tiers and those kind of, I suppose, more traditional mechanics.
Camilo: So the idea is that we’re offering you rewards, prize draws, those kind of offers.
Camilo: And we’ve got an app, so it’s a digital only program.
Camilo: It’s very straightforward to use.
Camilo: You can go in at any one time, there might be 15, 20 different rewards in the app.
Camilo: And it could be a free cup of coffee, it could be a discount on some Vodafone accessories, or it could be a prize draw to win a once-in-a-lifetime holiday.
Camilo: So it’s a real variety of things.
Camilo: The idea is that we’re constantly adding new rewards to the app all the time.
Camilo: We’re publishing 10 or more new bits of content each week.
Camilo: And as you kind of alluded to earlier, we work with MandoConnect who are brilliant, and we don’t just publish content that we think customers will like.
Camilo: There’s a lot of thought that goes into the types of rewards and to make sure we’re meeting those needs of those customers.
Camilo: So yeah, in a nutshell, it’s an easy program to join, it’s an easy program to use, and it’s about delivering value back to the customer.
Camilo: And yeah, so you mentioned our kind of recent innovation.
Camilo: So we launched this, we soft launched it a few months ago, and then we’ve done a big campaign back in August around this.
Camilo: But it’s basically the ability to decide whether to keep a reward that you’re given or whether to gift it to a family or friend member.
Camilo: So you can go in the app, you can get a movie rental, for example, which is what we launched with, and you can give that to anyone on any network.
Camilo: They don’t have to be a Vodafone customer.
Camilo: And again, this was in direct response to feedback we’d have from customers saying they wanted more flexibility in terms of how they can use some of our rewards.
Camilo: So, you know, a movie download might not necessarily appeal to you, but you might know someone who would love that.
Camilo: So it’s a nice gesture to be able to, I suppose, extend the reach of our program to customers who aren’t on Vodafone necessarily.
Camilo: So, yeah, so it did really well.
Camilo: We launched it on, you know, in print and radio and lots of stuff across social media.
Camilo: I think we were even trending with our hashtag gift or keep in the UK, which is it’s not always an easy thing for a loyalty program to do.
Camilo: If you think of all the other topics being discussed at the moment.
Camilo: So we were certainly pleased with that.
Camilo: And yeah, it’s, you know, that was just the start for us.
Camilo: We’re looking at how we can include that in the program going forward.
Camilo: It’s a great little feature.
Camilo: I don’t think anyone else in the UK at least has been doing that in our industry.
Camilo: So yeah, we’re really happy with it.
Camilo: And we think it’s got great, great potential for the future as well.
Paula: Yeah, it definitely does Camilo.
Paula: And I’ll pick up on a couple of things you mentioned, because as you know, this show is designed to, I suppose, inspire new ideas for loyalty program managers and directors around the world.
Paula: And first and foremost, because I also worked on a program, as I mentioned, which is based on partnerships and providing very different mechanics.
Paula: So, you know, completely away from the points and tiers, the traditional loyalty programs.
Paula: I do think partnerships is very much the way of the future.
Paula: I’d love to just ask, you know, what kind of partnerships are you featuring even before the gifting?
Paula: And sorry to go back a bit, but what kind of partnerships does the VeryMe program offer that I suppose are resonating most with your customers?
Camilo: Yeah, so we work with some of the UK’s biggest brands.
Camilo: So Costa Coffee, who are a huge coffee chain, Gregg’s Bakery, Tesco, a big supermarket.
Camilo: So those really well-known and trusted brands that have good kind of geographical spread across the UK.
Camilo: But we also work with smaller brands, I suppose more up and coming or brands that are not necessarily household names yet, at least.
Camilo: So we worked with Joe and Seth, who are a great UK popcorn brand, who are kind of thinking of lots of innovative popcorn flavors that you’ve never thought of.
Camilo: That one does really well as well.
Camilo: I mean, with COVID and lockdown, we had to shift our portfolio of partners a little bit more to kind of online brands.
Camilo: So we’ve done stuff with online gaming, learning lesmils, fitness, more digital rewards.
Camilo: So it’s a real mix, to be honest.
Camilo: We do a lot of thinking around what’s the right mix of those big well-known brands and smaller, perhaps more niche brands as well.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: And you mentioned that you developed the gifting proposition, I suppose, in response to customers asking for flexibility.
Paula: Was that related to COVID in any way, Camilo?
Paula: Or was that a pre-existing insight that just happened to launch around this time, would you say?
Paula: Or is that too hard to answer?
Camilo: No, that’s fine.
Camilo: Yeah, so it was insight we had probably about this time last year.
Camilo: I mean, we always had it on our list of things we wanted to do, but I suppose having that customer feedback and insight, I suppose made the case for doing it a bit more robust.
Camilo: And I think it was just kind of coincidental that we launched it at that time.
Camilo: But I think we launched it with a free movie download, which as I was saying, we’ve kind of had to shift our focus a bit more to those online rewards.
Camilo: So I think, had we done it pre-COVID, then a kind of in-store offer or something else may have been more appropriate.
Camilo: But I guess for us, we’ve got the capability and we’ve got the flexibility in terms of how we use it, which is great.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I saw as well, I suppose back when you launched the program, which was November 2018, there was and probably still is, in fact, the cinema partnership, where you were offering two tickets to the cinema for £7 any day of the week.
Paula: That’s an extraordinary partnership.
Camilo: Yeah, that’s right.
Camilo: And so, yeah, we work with Vue Cinemas, which, again, have got a really good reach across the UK.
Camilo: And it’s, yeah, two tickets for £7.
Camilo: It’s a brilliant deal.
Camilo: You can claim it each week as well.
Camilo: And we’re excited to see, you know, as there are more film releases over the coming months, that hopefully that will see more people using it as well, because that’s an industry that’s been really hard hit as well.
Camilo: So we’re doing everything we can to try and push that offer.
Camilo: And it’s a great value for customers as well.
Camilo: And it’s one I’ve used lots myself as well.
Paula: I’m sure.
Camilo: Yeah, it’s a great one.
Paula: Well done.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And again, I suppose, you know, older listeners like myself will remember Orange Wednesdays, which was where that cinema proposition first emerged, I think in France, actually, if I’m not mistaken.
Paula: And that would be about, I’m going to say, 20 years ago.
Paula: Does that sound right to you, Camilo?
Camilo: Yeah, I think so.
Camilo: I certainly remember using it a good, you know, 15 years ago at uni.
Camilo: So yeah, I think that’s probably about right.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And again, it started as literally for the Orange Network and just on a Wednesday.
Paula: So that I think traditionally was the cinema’s lowest day of the week.
Paula: So it made sense from a partnership perspective.
Paula: And certainly in the Irish market, I managed to drive it to five days a week.
Paula: So I thought I was doing super well.
Paula: So the fact that you’ve got it seven days a week now.
Paula: Well, first of all, it shows the power of the partnership.
Paula: But yeah, as you said, it’s an industry that will need all the support it can get as and when things do start to come back to normal.
Paula: And I remember again, actually, when we spoke last time, Camilo, you were telling me about just from your own kind of commuting perspective, that COVID has actually been, dare I say it, a bit of a blessing.
Paula: So tell us a bit about how it’s affected you in terms of your working life.
Camilo: Yeah, so I think Vodafone were really quick to respond back in March.
Camilo: So we were encouraged to work from home really early on in the crisis.
Camilo: And Vodafone have been a brilliant employer throughout this time as well.
Camilo: And so, yeah, my commute to the office, I live out near Oxford, so my commute into our Central London office was a good hour and 45 each way.
Camilo: So I certainly don’t miss the commute.
Camilo: I definitely miss the interaction with my team.
Camilo: And I’ve got a fantastic team, all very passionate about what we do as well.
Camilo: And, you know, when you’re trying to do creative things, and it’s not always the easiest thing to do on Zoom or Skype.
Paula: Yeah.
Camilo: So there are definitely aspects for that I miss.
Camilo: But for my own personal life, at least, it’s been great.
Camilo: I’ve got an 11-month-old son, so it’s been fantastic to have a bit more time with him.
Camilo: Yeah, so it’s obviously been a difficult time for a lot of people.
Camilo: I feel very fortunate that Vodafone is in general in a good position, and they’ve been really supportive to us throughout this time as well, which is fantastic.
Paula: Yeah, and I do love London as a city, but I’ve often said actually commuting there can’t be fun.
Paula: And an hour and 45 minutes, Camilo, my God.
Paula: Particularly, as you said, with the young baby, what’s your son’s name?
Camilo: Mateo.
Paula: Oh, my goodness, how lovely.
Paula: Okay, very nice.
Camilo: Well, we were talking the other day, I was saying, you know, one thing I don’t find I’ve found the time to do anymore is listen to podcasts and things as much as I used to, because the commute was a great time to be doing that.
Camilo: So I think it certainly encouraged me to find a bit more time in my day to do that.
Paula: Yeah, brilliant stuff.
Paula: Great.
Paula: And just the final, I suppose, question from my side, Camilo, was just around the gifting strategy, which I’m so impressed by what you’ve done.
Paula: I love the fact that Vodafone has put above the line spend.
Paula: As you mentioned, you had print and radio and social and even managed to start trending.
Paula: I would just love to understand again, are you using a segmentation strategy at the moment?
Paula: Is that something that you can, or is it something that you’re looking for a mass market coverage at this point?
Paula: What’s the strategic approach in terms of rewarding your customers?
Camilo: Yes, I think one of our principles was that we want to give everyone the opportunity to claim rewards and access to the program, but we’ve certainly got the capability to do more targeted initiatives.
Camilo: We operate across a pay-as-you-go market and a pay monthly market and also our small business customers, so as you can imagine, those three big groups have in themselves quite different needs and requirements.
Camilo: So we certainly tailor our approach to some of those different markets.
Camilo: And for our small business customers, we do a lot of rewards that help them with their businesses.
Camilo: So it may be small business insurance, it may be other kind of services that those professionals might need, whereas obviously the consumer market may be more focused on cinema days out, food and those kind of things.
Camilo: So I think we do tailor our approach and we can target offers based on different segments, demographic and things as well.
Camilo: So we want to give people the most relevant rewards, so we try as much as we can to do that.
Camilo: But we certainly don’t want anyone to miss out on some of our most popular ones.
Paula: Yeah, very good.
Paula: Okay, and I suppose again, just even as a vote of confidence for the programme, I saw that it initially launched, I think, for Postpay, which is probably the easiest place to start from a network’s perspective, but has replaced a previous loyalty programme for The Pay As You Go.
Paula: So that’s an extraordinary increase, I suppose, in the amount of work that you probably have to do.
Paula: And actually, how big is the team, Camilo, that’s running the Very Me programme?
Camilo: So we’ve got about 13 people within the team, but we’re set up as a self-sufficient team.
Camilo: So we’ve got a designer, a copywriter, a data manager, an analyst, as well as more the proposition and partnerships as well.
Camilo: So we’re set up so that we’ve, as much as possible, got everyone we need within our team to run the programme.
Camilo: And then we also work with some fantastic agency partners as well who support on various things as well.
Camilo: So it’s definitely a big team effort.
Camilo: Lots of people involved.
Camilo: But it’s a programme that many of us have been involved with from the start or near the start.
Camilo: And we’re all hugely excited and passionate about it.
Camilo: So it makes it a great team to work in.
Camilo: And there are always new ideas bouncing around.
Camilo: And yes, it’s fantastic.
Paula: And dare I say it, it almost sounds like your other baby.
Camilo: Sometimes easier to control.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: And I saw a great headline as well, just to mention for listeners that from your launch, which as we said, is probably just under two years now, you’ve had 28 million rewards claimed to date by members.
Paula: I’m sure that’s way in excess of what you expected.
Paula: Is that fair to say?
Camilo: Yeah, it’s been amazing.
Camilo: I think we’ve probably just hit the 30 million mark now.
Paula: Wow.
Camilo: Yeah, it’s going up each day really quickly.
Camilo: I mean, the program is doing really well and certainly exceeded expectations in a lot of areas, but we don’t stop.
Camilo: Our current climate is quite a tricky one, so we’re not taking our foot off the pedal.
Camilo: We’re constantly thinking of how we can keep our customers engaged.
Camilo: It’s not enough to just launch something and leave it.
Camilo: You just have to constantly think of ways to keep customers coming back and make sure that you’re not just creating a big group of disengaged people.
Camilo: So, yeah, lots has been done.
Camilo: We’ve achieved great things, but still lots more to do.
Paula: Yeah, brilliant.
Paula: And just as a closing comment, I know you also won, I think, is it two awards with the Loyalty Magazine Awards?
Paula: I can’t exactly remember.
Paula: You’ll have to forgive me.
Paula: Tell me what you won.
Camilo: We won Best Used of CRM at the Loyalty Magazine Awards back in June, I think, which was a virtual event, which was interesting.
Camilo: It was great.
Paula: Great fun, yeah.
Camilo: And again, a real morale boost for the team and kind of reaffirms all the hard work that’s been done.
Camilo: So yeah, we were over the moon to win that award and get that recognition.
Camilo: It’s a pretty global awards ceremony, so lots of competition from lots of different industries and lots of different programs.
Camilo: So for us, that was a huge win, and we’re really, really proud of that.
Paula: Absolutely, yeah.
Paula: And if anything is certain, Camilo, it’s certainly that the mobile network industry is only going to get super competitive with pressure coming from all sides, not least the Zoom type solution.
Paula: So for Vodafone to be investing now in something that does retain customers, winning awards with a team of 13 people, I’m a little bit envious about your role there.
Camilo: Yeah, and not only from our Telco competitors in the UK, but lots of people who previously weren’t in the loyalty space are now in the loyalty space.
Camilo: So a lot of the fintech companies and brands with really slick apps and easy user experiences, we always look at them because, again, I don’t think it’s enough to just be thinking about Telco as our competitive landscape.
Camilo: You have to be thinking about all the hundreds of apps that a customer might have on their phone, and how do we make ours the one that they come to the most.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: Well, it certainly sounds like you’re succeeding, Camilo.
Paula: Anything else you wanted to mention before we wrap up?
Camilo: No, I think that’s covered quite a lot.
Camilo: Just encourage anyone in the UK to check out the programme and join if they’re a Vodafone customer.
Camilo: Had to do a little plug there.
Paula: Totally.
Camilo: But now I think we’ve covered a lot of ground, I think.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Yeah, well, I’ve certainly really enjoyed the conversation, Camilo.
Paula: As I said, I love the gifting strategy.
Paula: I think it’s totally fitting with the current climate and the zeitgeist of building emotional loyalty, which we’re all talking about.
Paula: But very few brands, I think, have actually succeeded in finding a way to execute on that.
Paula: And the fact that it’s across network as well shows a level of integrity for Vodafone that you can gift to whoever you want to.
Paula: And I think that’s a really important principle.
Paula: So yeah, so I literally just want to do again, congratulate you on an extraordinary programme.
Paula: So Camilo Courtenay, Loyalty Product Manager with very me rewards at Vodafone.
Paula: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.
Paula: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: For more information, check out the wisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.
Paula: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
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