Epsilon: Beyond Points — Why Loyalty Must Become a Long-Term Business Strategy (#803)

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights for loyalty marketing specialists around the world.

Charlie: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Charlie: My name is Charlie Hills, the Chief Strategy Officer of Mando, WPP Specialist Loyalty Partnerships Promotions and Rewards Agency and a proud host for Let’s Talk Loyalty.

Charlie: Today, I’m delighted to be interviewing Elie Carrier-Walker.

Charlie: Elie is the Vice President of Client Services at Epsilon, a publicist group company.

Charlie: She leads the client relationships and loyalty program delivery across EMEA.

Charlie: She’s got deep expertise in enterprise loyalty technology and partners with major brands to design and implement data-driven loyalty strategies, guiding their clients from RFP and solution scoping through platform integration, program design and long-term growth.

Charlie: Her work spans strategic client management, competitive market intelligence and the delivery of complex multi-market loyalty programs.

Charlie: She’s going to talk to you about some of those in the episode today.

Charlie: Epsilon has been helping clients deliver on their loyalty objectives globally for more than 50 years.

Charlie: Today, Epsilon Loyalty combines deep loyalty expertise with market-leading technology to create growth-based programs that fundamentally change habits and deliverable measurable long-term value.

Charlie: In today’s episode, we’ll learn all about Elie and Epsilon, how they manage loyalty, and the key insights and innovations to look out for.

Charlie: So listen in to be inspired.

Charlie: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights from other loyalty experts around the world.

Charlie: I hope you enjoy today’s episode.

Charlie: I’m so excited to have you on the podcast today.

Charlie: Welcome.

Elie: Great.

Elie: Thank you so much for having me.

Elie: I’m delighted to be here.

Charlie: It’s going to be a good one today.

Charlie: I hope a really nice kind of summary feel for everybody.

Charlie: Before we get into the detail of today’s episode, I want to start with the same question that we always ask all our guests, because it’s a really important library builder for us.

Charlie: So Elie, what is your favorite book about life, loyalty, or work?

Elie: Right.

Elie: So this one, like I said, was a little bit hard for me to find simply because I don’t generally read a lot of management books or business books.

Elie: But the one that really stood out and that has stood out for me, in general, as a book that I’ve read also because it’s 700 pages, so time was invested, is The Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns.

Elie: So what it is is really a study of how Lincoln, when he became president, brought in to key positions in his cabinet, his rivals, his political rivals, right?

Elie: So the aim there was really to bring in all aspects of the thinking that the population of this new nation really wanted to have in their leadership.

Elie: And why I think it’s so inspiring, right?

Elie: Other than the fact that, of course, Lincoln is himself meant to be an inspirational leader, is that it really shows the key aspects that I aspire to as a leader, but also that I look for in leadership.

Elie: And that’s the need for collaboration, finding common ground, really bringing in emotional intelligence to leadership.

Elie: And something that, you know, throughout this book, we’re able to see he really, he really manages to bring with confidence.

Charlie: Oh, that’s a brilliant recommendation.

Charlie: And so, and you reckon worth the 700 pages?

Elie: I think so, might take a while, but.

Charlie: Oh, fantastic.

Charlie: Everyone, please read away.

Charlie: I think it’s, I’m loving this question.

Charlie: When we first started it, we really had no idea what we were going to end up with.

Charlie: And we’d have everything from poetry to lifestyle to leadership questions.

Charlie: So that’s a really good one.

Charlie: We’ve not had that before.

Charlie: Thank you, I will check it out.

Charlie: It brings us on nicely to our other kind of standard guest question, which is one of my other favorites, which is what is your favorite loyalty program?

Charlie: I’m always really interested whether people answer this from a professional point of view or your personal point of view or both.

Charlie: So, Elie, which ones do you like?

Elie: Well, I think loyalty being what it is, it kind of has to come from a personal point of view from my perspective.

Elie: And I’m going to cheat a little bit, I actually have two.

Elie: So the first one and this one that I refer to all the time is Dior Beauty.

Elie: What I think that they tap into really well, right?

Elie: Being that they’re a premium brand is still having some transactional elements which are always important.

Elie: I think no matter how premium your brand, there is an importance to that.

Elie: But really tapping into the emotional piece very well.

Elie: And I find myself when I work in loyalty, really coming back to being excited to buy my next product to figure out what it is that they’re going to give me.

Elie: It’s something where they managed to tap into that desire to feel important, but also that luxury piece and status piece that the people enjoy.

Elie: The other one is probably, and again, here we’re going to see how emotional loyalty really does play its part, is miles and more.

Elie: So airlines, they do it super well and they have a consistent experience.

Elie: But what I love about them is that they really allow you to reach a status quite quickly.

Elie: So I think being able to create that relationship with your consumers is important.

Elie: Give them a reason to value you relatively quickly so you’re seeing the perks and you’re feeling that status already at an early stage.

Elie: And then one of the things that I experienced on a flight to Dubai, for example, where of course I was in row 555 in economy, they still went ahead and offered me a glass of champagne just because of the status that I have.

Elie: So there’s that emotional piece that they’re really able to leverage quite well.

Charlie: Well, that’s really nice.

Charlie: And I really like that there’s those two very different sectors there.

Charlie: So premium beauty to travel and the focus, I imagine, with Dior Beauty must all be on emotion and relationship, whereas Mars are so much more focused on transaction, bringing those emotional elements in.

Charlie: Two very cool examples.

Charlie: And actually thinking about it, I don’t think I’ve had those examples for a while as well, which is surprising given the size of both of those programs.

Charlie: So everyone go check them out and I thoroughly recommend the Dior lipsticks as well.

Charlie: They’re absolutely fabulous.

Elie: And the creams.

Charlie: Oh yeah.

Charlie: So nice.

Charlie: So nice.

Charlie: Yeah, we’ve had a terrible, well, we’ve had unbelievably hot weather here in the British market.

Charlie: And I’m a redhead.

Charlie: And this kind of level of sunshine for me is genuinely quite terrifying.

Charlie: So I’ve been thoroughly experimenting with all the different sort of ways you can get SPF 50 into your skin care.

Charlie: I can recommend Dior and well, I spent a lot of time in the Premium Beauty.

Charlie: I’m attempting not to look too shiny.

Elie: I hear you.

Charlie: Or go bright red.

Charlie: My freckles have gone absolutely nuts.

Charlie: So it’s been an exciting time for us in Britain.

Charlie: Although apparently it’s now just about to start raining.

Charlie: So we’re all going to be really missing it.

Elie: Yes, exactly.

Elie: That’s always how it goes.

Charlie: Very upsetting.

Charlie: What about your career and your history?

Charlie: How did you end up in the current role?

Charlie: It’s always lovely to hear the biography of people, how you’ve come through it.

Charlie: And what do you really enjoy about working in loyalty marketing?

Elie: So my role, I was born in Canada, but raised in multiple different countries, kind of moved from country to country throughout my childhood, but also my adult life, which I think has taught me a lot in terms of flexibility and getting to know people and understanding people.

Elie: So that’s been a big part of sort of my career.

Elie: I actually initially studied international relations, negotiation and policy making.

Elie: So very far away from loyalty, but at the same time, I think all of it kind of marries up into sort of the ability to have connections with people.

Elie: And I started at Epsilon, I think it’s been now about 14 years.

Elie: So I’ve been on a long trajectory with Epsilon.

Elie: And loyalty is actually a topic that I really started getting passionate about about six years ago.

Elie: What I love about loyalty is that when you look at sort of the hard piece that marketing can be, right?

Elie: And consumers making sure that they’re not getting got by any brands, et cetera.

Elie: I do feel that loyalty is kind of an area where there’s a fairness towards the consumer and a real kind of need for respect towards the consumer, right?

Elie: Because it is very much based on that value exchange, it’s important to make sure that you’re respecting the person, that they have an expectation of your brand and you need to fulfill it.

Elie: If you want that loyalty to work, you need to fulfill it and you need to have that respect towards them.

Charlie: That’s really nice to hear.

Charlie: That sort of that customer centricity, because I think maybe five, ten years ago that perhaps wasn’t as prevalent as it is now.

Charlie: Even in the loyalty world, it was very much more about transaction and value and the business case and the numbers.

Charlie: It’s really nice to hear that sort of that focus on the human being and that mutual respect coming through.

Charlie: I’m sure most of our audience have heard of Epsilon.

Charlie: They’re obviously a very established leader brand within the loyalty world, but it would probably be helpful because we might have the odd listener or odd viewer who doesn’t know you.

Charlie: Could you tell us all about Epsilon and what it is that you do there?

Elie: Yes.

Elie: I’m responsible for our loyalty practice across international.

Elie: Again, loving what I do.

Elie: Definitely, Epsilon is well established in the loyalty space.

Elie: I learned this recently.

Elie: We actually, in 1970, launched the first loyalty program for Pan Am.

Elie: That may speak to obviously the age and expertise, but since then, what’s been amazing is that that standard has been kept up.

Elie: We’ve been the leaders in loyalty ever since, and leaning on all that expertise and experience that we’ve had over time, and just getting better and better, and driving that innovation towards a more emotional loyalty, like we talked about.

Elie: Now, obviously, Epsilon is part of a wider group, which is publicist group, which is very well-known and a global group.

Elie: So, we really sit at the center of what publicist group do.

Elie: If you look at how publicists do talk about us, that’s very much it.

Elie: We sit at the center, we’re able to bring the identity piece and the data piece to a broader connected ecosystem, of which loyalty is obviously a big piece.

Charlie: Nice.

Charlie: What kind of brands do you work on?

Charlie: What kind of programs do you look after?

Elie: Well, we look after a huge range.

Elie: Obviously, there’s retail, we have DTC on CPG side, we have B2B, which is actually gaining a lot of momentum in the loyalty world, which is very interesting, like logistics.

Elie: Name it, pretty much every industry that you can think about we’re working with from a loyalty standpoint.

Charlie: That’s the fantastic bit to think about being on this side of the fence, isn’t it?

Charlie: That we all get to work on so many programs and so many different sectors.

Charlie: It’s really interesting that you call out B2B there actually.

Charlie: I really enjoyed B2B and actually the application of the principles of what works in B2C, working so brilliantly in B2B as well.

Charlie: Have you found that as well that learnings from one sector translate to another?

Elie: I think B2B, like you said, has been undervalued and not looked at.

Elie: I think that we’ve seen it pick up definitely in the last six years, five years or so with our clients.

Elie: It’s interesting because it’s got difficult principles, in the sense that it’s not quite like B2C.

Elie: You have to figure out how are you going to reward a business.

Elie: You’re not rewarding a person.

Elie: There’s definitely a segmentation that ends up being a little bit different than if you’re just looking at the direct consumer.

Elie: But at the same time, it’s not entirely different.

Elie: People want the same thing, businesses need the same thing.

Elie: And if you’re looking at B2B, depending on, for example, most companies will have B2B clients that are small, medium, large.

Elie: And in that, there’s a whole bunch of different segmentation that you should look at.

Elie: So how you address these different businesses, how you support them, how you bring in that emotional loyalty and move beyond the transaction is actually something that we’re really seeing take off in B2B loyalty.

Elie: It’s also a huge revenue driver.

Elie: So it does, it supports the B2B businesses, and then also makes sure that the business itself, that our clients are able to continue to drive that revenue with those small, medium, and large businesses.

Charlie: Yeah, I found it absolutely fascinating, and it’s lovely to have a guest who shares that passion for it.

Charlie: I think some of the things I found so interesting are the different sizes of accounts that you need to think about and control and hierarchies within the loyalty program.

Charlie: You know, who gets the reward?

Charlie: Who’s in charge of how the rewards are distributed?

Charlie: There’s all sorts of really interesting things and intricacies, I think, to figure out in that space.

Charlie: Which brings me on to sort of a broader question, and one of the things that you and I have talked about quite a bit.

Charlie: Consumers are really feeling the pressure of rising costs.

Charlie: We know they’re becoming really selective about where they spend, and there is this big discussion at the moment about our points, discounts, and rewards enough to really build loyalty today.

Charlie: And what do you think brands should be doing in the context of that to strengthen their customer relationships and reward and retain loyalty in that context?

Charlie: Because it’s harder than ever, I think.

Elie: It is harder than ever.

Elie: And actually, what I’ve been reading is that what we’re seeing is that the customer loyalty is declining.

Elie: It’s really on the downward trend simply because right now, what people are trying to look for is the best deal for the things that they need, right?

Elie: And that’s where the transactional piece, of course, is important.

Elie: But then it also becomes a little bit of a race to the bottom.

Elie: So though that’s important, it’s not what’s going to make you win, especially in these circumstances, because everybody can do it.

Elie: I think that definitely talk about emotional loyalty, and I’ve mentioned it before, but I think that that’s a critical piece, right?

Elie: Making sure that you’re putting in strategies across your business that allow for that stickiness really is what it is.

Elie: So if I talk about Miles and more, I could take a Ryan Air flight, right?

Elie: But I have access and privileges that I’ve earned with another airline.

Elie: So even though the price difference is significantly larger, and it’s more expensive with, say, Lufthansa, I don’t want to let go of those perks, right?

Elie: Those are important to me.

Elie: And that’s where that emotional piece taps in, right?

Elie: It’s sort of, am I thinking about sort of what my journey is going to be and what my experience is going to be, and that sort of takes a little bit of precedent.

Elie: And I think that having that brand value and that brand trust and knowing that there’s consistency there, so you’re putting your money towards something that has value for you and it’s not just a transactional piece, it’s sort of what businesses should be thinking about, right?

Elie: How can they make consumers feel that way, and how can they kind of cater to that to make sure that long-term retention is a strategy through the ups and downs of economic circumstances?

Charlie: Yeah, and I think that’s a really interesting behavioral science principle that you’re talking there.

Charlie: Actually, a couple of them have come out, which is loss aversion, I’ve put loads of effort in, I don’t want to lose it, and the IKEA effect that actually you’ve worked towards something so that actually it means more to you.

Charlie: What else do you think brands should be doing to really strengthen those customer relationships and retain loyalty?

Charlie: Because I think emotional loyalty has become a little bit of a buzzword in our industry, and everyone says, I’m going to make my pro-work program more emotional.

Charlie: I’ve sat in lots of client workshops, we then go, well, how?

Charlie: Is it the types of rewards?

Charlie: Is it the mechanics as you’re talking about?

Charlie: What do you think are the real keys to success in that space?

Charlie: I appreciate it varies hugely by sector as well, because an emotional connection to a coffee cup is very different to an airline.

Elie: You say that, but at the same time, somebody offering you a coffee cup at the right moment, at a moment that actually matters to you, where maybe you’ve had to eliminate that coffee cup because it costs you too much, that the daily expense needs to go away does matter.

Elie: That’s where empathy and again, being able to understand your consumer and to be relevant to what their need is, is that long-term strategy.

Elie: Even when we talk about emotional loyalty and hard benefits and soft benefits, the emotional loyalty is showing to a certain extent that the consumer does matter.

Elie: I come back to that point of loyalty really being that aspect where there’s fairness for the customer where they matter because for them to give you their loyalty, it has to be relevant for them.

Elie: We talk about how emotional loyalty has to be things like benefits and experiences and all that is true and it’s not the only thing.

Elie: I still think that you can deliver points for things that matter, have a price point for maybe a more expensive item that that person stopped buying.

Elie: Those things are also things that you can bring in for that emotional loyalty.

Elie: And then I think that that also speaks to the broader need, where it needs to be a business strategy.

Elie: It can’t just be based on the program and siloed in the program.

Elie: You need to bring that empathy, that relevance, that trust across your brand and across the different touch points.

Elie: It can’t just live alone in a program.

Charlie: Yeah, I completely agree.

Charlie: I think one of my favorite examples is a loyalty program for a nameless who gave me a free coffee.

Charlie: Exactly, and I’m a complete caffeine addict for years, and I loved it and it became part of my ritual.

Charlie: So I would go out and walk my dog, meet a friend, pick up our free coffees, genuinely feel a moment.

Charlie: Even though we work in loyalty, I don’t think it’s changes how you feel about these things.

Charlie: We’re like, this is lovely because it was that extra little treat.

Charlie: Worked really well for the coffee shop because quite often bought the dog, a Pup Chino or something else as we were in there.

Charlie: There was a healthy level of halo spend.

Charlie: Then it was taken away recently, which was really sad because they communicated it very well.

Charlie: They went, our rewards budget is getting too much, so we’re going to drop you now into a spin to win competition, and every week you’ll win something.

Charlie: I felt really sad and it genuinely affected me emotionally.

Charlie: I thought, gosh, this is my lovely rituals.

Charlie: But it has, it’s really taken that magic away from the brand.

Charlie: Who would have thought that a cup of coffee could have such a significant effect on a program?

Charlie: And I think lots of our guests have those kind of stories.

Charlie: Is there anything you would recommend programs don’t do?

Charlie: Because we’ve talked a bit about loss aversion, Ikea effect, not taking things away is my particular example.

Charlie: What do you think programs can do to damage the emotional connection?

Elie: Yeah, I think that that would have been definitely one of them.

Elie: I think when we talk about that emotional loyalty piece and that trust piece, it really is that, right?

Elie: It’s making sure you have a brand that you feel like you can rely on.

Elie: I have a very good example of that.

Elie: It was actually Eurostar.

Elie: I was super excited.

Elie: I had reached a status I could access the lounge.

Elie: And first time I was able to do it, I’m a lounge lover, what can I say?

Elie: That will always work for me as a benefit.

Elie: And as soon as I was on my next trip, that was actually taken away.

Elie: And to be honest, it impacted how I was purchasing with Eurostar.

Elie: It was less something I was working towards and sort of wanting to maintain.

Elie: I was like, well, then I’m just going to go for the alternative now, that’s it.

Elie: And so it really has a, it took away a brand promise that I felt I had contributed to, because I’d gone up and earned all those points.

Elie: And it really took away my trust to, eroded my trust in that brand.

Elie: And that is exactly the type of thing that needs to be avoided.

Elie: And I understand things around rewards budget, but I think that that’s also something that I’ve learned a lot, is that it’s very important to be careful about what you give, right?

Elie: Because the number of tiers that you have, what’s in each tier, all of that stuff, right?

Elie: Everything that you offer, be conscious of what it is, right?

Elie: Have a real strategy behind it, because taking it away will be much more punitive than making sure that you’re building that up slowly.

Elie: Yeah.

Charlie: I think that’s really good advice actually.

Charlie: I always like to sort of translate stuff into top tips, and I think that’s one of the things.

Charlie: As a reward and partnership specialist, one of the things we always start with is, well, what if we had to take this away or actually can we afford this in six months time, 12 months time, 24 months time?

Charlie: What if the membership doubles?

Charlie: Is that all sustainable?

Charlie: I think that’s a really key thing to be true to your promises of your membership.

Charlie: In light with the fairness that you’re talking about, you are trying to build relationships for the long-term.

Charlie: I know you’re really passionate about that long-term loyalty as well, as rather than just that short-term view.

Charlie: Why do you think it is so important that programs drive emotional loyalty for the long-term, over transactional loyalty for the short-term?

Charlie: Why does that matter?

Elie: Right, so again here, I don’t think it has to be over the transactional piece.

Elie: I think that the transactional piece can very much contribute to the long-term vision, right?

Elie: I just think that when you’re thinking about a strategy and, you know, when it comes to loyalty, which is really, I mean, ultimately, what loyalty is, is your customer retention program, right?

Elie: And you know, you’re also making sure that you’re investing in the right places and bring back the customers that kind of are valuable to you, right?

Elie: So I think understanding your customer and understanding what matters means that you better apply those emotional and transactional pieces to ensuring that long-term value.

Elie: So that’s where, you know, I obviously we’re very data driven, right?

Elie: Epsilon has always been a data driven company, especially how we look at loyalty.

Elie: We think it’s critical, right?

Elie: So understand, learn from what you’re seeing and the behaviors and the needs that your customers have.

Elie: You know, keep a close watch on that, because ultimately that’s what’s going to make sure that you’re applying the right mechanic, the right benefit, the right transactional reward to that longer term strategy.

Charlie: And when you talk about longer term, are you sort of, do you look at a 12 month horizon, a three year horizon?

Charlie: How does that work at Epsilon or is it all very client brand specific?

Elie: Well, I mean, clients will have their say about that, that’s for sure.

Elie: But generally, we would apply it to at least a three to five year plan, right?

Elie: Now, the important thing to remember is that that’s a plan.

Elie: And what we always stress is the need to adapt your plan, right?

Elie: Yeah, definitely.

Charlie: Well, particularly given the way the world is going at the moment.

Charlie: Yeah, I mean, agentic AI, we won’t even come on to the developments that AI is going to bring to those plans that we will have sort of three to five years out.

Charlie: But yeah, I think the days, I do remember very early on in my career, we did a 10 year plan for Loyalty when I was at Boots.

Charlie: And yeah, I can’t imagine what happened to that after year three.

Charlie: Yeah, that’s very different.

Charlie: What about loyalty and its role in business strategy?

Charlie: So I think that’s really interesting because it is one of the disciplines that sort of crosses outside of marketing.

Charlie: And I think one of the common theme that comes up from the guests we talk to is how many different departments and components of a business are involved in the loyalty development, but also the loyalty execution.

Charlie: Do you think it’s important that loyalty should be in business strategy as well as marketing strategy?

Charlie: And what does that look like for the world of Epsilon?

Elie: Absolutely.

Elie: So I think it’s the only way for it to evolve and to work well, right?

Elie: So again, if you look at a brand and the relationship that a customer has with your brand, it has to be something that they feel across every touch point, right?

Elie: Across every strategy, whether that’s your pricing strategy, whether that’s your marketing strategy, whether that’s your customer care strategy, right?

Elie: All of this, loyalty needs to live in every piece of it, because ultimately, if you want somebody to feel like they’re rewarded, like they’re recognized, like they’re special to your brand, and that you want them to come back, they need to feel that everywhere.

Elie: So relevant pricing strategies, making sure that loyalty is considered in all communications, those are things that businesses really need to start looking at, right?

Elie: The loyalty piece is what will be driving continued revenue, despite of what happens in the world, basically.

Elie: Trade wars, economic downturns, all this stuff will always be an up and down, but having that integration into really caring about the customer and having strategies that showcase that is what will keep them coming back to your brand.

Elie: And I think that that’s a brand equity.

Elie: Companies spend so much on their brand equity, and in fact, loyalty really needs to be a big part of that.

Charlie: And I think we’ve probably got lots of listeners and viewers listening to this episode at the moment going, well, that’s great in theory.

Charlie: However, the practice of it is genuinely quite tricky because often an organization is set up with a trading department, a brand department, potentially a retention or base marketing department.

Charlie: And often, we often work with brands who are trying to run retention and loyalty programs, and then the trade or acquisition team are doing heavy deep price discounting.

Charlie: What are some of the practical ways that you think our loyalty leaders who were listening to this could address those kinds of challenges?

Charlie: How do you build that integration?

Charlie: How do you make loyalty part of the business strategy?

Elie: Yeah.

Elie: Now, I think that that’s definitely a challenge that I’ve experienced a number of times with clients.

Elie: So sometimes, and it really depends on the business, loyalty may be seen as an add-on.

Elie: So it’s almost like the poor little brother to many other channels that are being focused on, and they have to fight their way through.

Elie: So that becomes difficult.

Elie: I do think that for it to really be a business strategy, it does have to be an organizational shift.

Elie: So I think as so much as you want a head of loyalty to do whatever they can to be able to be part of every communication, there has to be a drive from the top, and from the business saying this needs to be integrated in every part of our business and thought of.

Elie: If not, like you said, right?

Elie: Everybody has their own KPIs, their own pieces to meet, and they’re not going to be thinking about that broader story.

Elie: So it really has to be brought together organizationally.

Elie: I think if not, it is, and I have seen it be, a real uphill battle.

Charlie: Yeah, it’s really challenging, isn’t it?

Charlie: I interviewed a fantastic guest, actually called Ben Sterling, 10X Loyalty, if anyone’s listening and you want to go back and look at previous episodes.

Charlie: Because he taught very much about how to sell the benefits of a loyalty program in across different tiers of the business.

Charlie: And it’s interesting there that you referred to everybody’s KPIs because that was his hook.

Charlie: He was like, actually, what is the key thing that each different part of the business is looking for?

Charlie: And then how do you tailor your story to that?

Charlie: So I’d really recommend for anyone struggling with this exact challenge, which we all do all the time, to go back and check that episode out as well.

Charlie: I think that’s definitely one of the biggest challenges in loyalty.

Charlie: What are some of the biggest shifts you see happening in loyalty today?

Elie: Well, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say AI.

Elie: Yes.

Charlie: That must be a false answer, isn’t it?

Elie: I feel like that’s everywhere.

Elie: I mean, I actually think that AI in the immediate is what it is.

Elie: It’s enhancing the customer experience, but then also increasing the customer expectation.

Elie: I think that that’s something that needs to be considered as companies do develop their strategies.

Elie: I think that other than that, and that’s an obvious answer, is that for me, the shift is, I really do feel, and even if I look back five years, that loyalty is no longer being looked at as that add-on and that program.

Elie: And that I’m talking about even from a consumer standpoint, but more being looked at as a strategy, right?

Elie: As sort of a, not a cost center, but something that’s actually going to drive revenue, right?

Elie: In a long-term investment.

Elie: So I do think that there has been that shift.

Elie: It’s also more and more, and we see it obviously as we see clients green-fielding loyalty programs.

Elie: Like, sometimes you’re surprised that some of these brands don’t have loyalty, but that’s happening more and more now.

Elie: It’s a must-have, right?

Elie: Again, back to the customer experience and the expectations, and especially with AI where there’s automated segmentation and targeted offers and all that stuff sort of happening in real time, in ways that it wasn’t happening before, there’s an expectation from the consumer that you just have to meet.

Charlie: Yeah.

Charlie: I think we keep looking at saturation.

Charlie: So, Amanda, we publish big annual reports, we look at what the British people want from loyalty, we do the big studies across Europe, and I think we keep expecting to see saturation.

Charlie: Actually, we haven’t seen saturation yet in any of the markets.

Charlie: We’ve got markets where nearly every kind of significant brand has a program, and even there, there’s still this continuous desire for it.

Charlie: What about challenges?

Charlie: What’s the biggest challenge you face?

Charlie: That’s always a very interesting question.

Elie: Well, I think the biggest challenge that I have faced is working backwards.

Elie: I think one of the things that we definitely support our clients with is loyalty strategy.

Elie: That’s a big piece of how we bring in our expertise and we lean in with our clients.

Elie: I think what has been difficult is working with our clients.

Elie: I’m talking at the most executive levels, with CMOs, with SVPs of certain brands, etc.

Elie: To define a strategy that’s new, that’s fresh, that’s bringing in that emotional piece, that has that transactional piece, that ticks all the boxes.

Elie: But them having a technology that just cannot deliver on it, and then having to work backwards.

Elie: And that is, you can see the demotivation that comes into people, right?

Elie: After being so excited about, okay, we’re gonna launch this amazing thing, and the technology is just not fit for it.

Elie: And again, that comes back to being an organizational shift that needs to happen, and an organizational investment, right?

Elie: Because it’s not just, you can have the best strategy, but if you don’t have the right tools to deploy it, or if you don’t, if you let the tools that you have drive what that strategy is gonna be, then it just can be very frustrating.

Charlie: Yeah, no, I completely agree.

Charlie: And I think, again, sort of 10 years ago, we would often start designing programs or developing programs, and you’d start with the tech, and actually now you start with the ambition, and then you build the tech in, but it’s nothing more disappointing than when computer says no.

Charlie: Although hopefully those instances are getting less, and hopefully what I love is when the computer says, we can’t do that.

Charlie: Have you thought about this?

Charlie: And then actually we work collaboratively together, a bit like your Lincoln book that we started in, where everybody’s kind of trying to build on each other’s ideas and capabilities.

Charlie: What about lessons that you’ve learned?

Charlie: So we’ve talked about shifts happening, we’ve talked about challenges, but do you have a kind of most important lesson that stood out to you?

Elie: I think I have the one lesson that’s stuck with me and that I try to apply all the time is, and that’s, you know, if you look at leadership, if you look at work, life, loyalty, all of it is just to make sure that you’re consistently keeping an ear out and an open mind to change.

Elie: And that you’re staying flexible to allow yourself to get better, to learn more, to open up, to adapt.

Elie: Because I think that, you know, especially in this changing world, it’s one of the biggest assets that somebody can have.

Elie: And definitely a huge asset for a loyalty program is to be able to sort of shift with the demands as they change.

Charlie: Yeah, agile, move with the times, I think is really key at the moment.

Charlie: Just move really quickly, because as soon as you think you’ve figured something out, it then moves at the moment, right?

Charlie: Oh yeah, I’ll do a six-monthly market review just no longer applies.

Charlie: What about examples of loyalty strategies or initiatives or things you’ve seen recently that you particularly admire or proud of?

Charlie: Are there one or two examples that kind of stand out?

Elie: I guess I could speak to one example.

Elie: I won’t use a client’s name, but we worked with a large retailer that was multi-brand, multi-market, had a very kind of scattered approach to their loyalty.

Elie: One of the first areas where we worked with them was to define a strategy how, first of all, it would move away from sort of the generic transactional, right?

Elie: Which sometimes, you know, the spray and pray, like, let’s just hope somebody gets this.

Elie: That’s a nice expression.

Elie: And then move it more to the sort of emotional and personal, right?

Elie: So obviously, that’s very difficult to do if you’re looking at multiple markets and multiple brands.

Elie: So the first thing was bringing everything under one concept and one concept that could work across all of these brands and for all of these markets with some small adaptations.

Elie: So I think that’s actually much more difficult to achieve than it sounds.

Elie: And then after, how are we bringing in the components of all of these different brands into this loyalty program to allow it to not just be a transactional thing, but also to almost create a brand with the loyalty program if you want, right?

Elie: So that was one of the things.

Elie: And then I think that has been a process in the last 12 months.

Elie: So that’s something that I’m particularly proud of because we’re seeing the fruition of that.

Elie: We’re really seeing that the results of changing that whole strategy and that whole approach.

Elie: The other thing that I think is really exciting is, again, I talked to how loyalty sometimes can be seen as an add-on and a cost center.

Elie: But actually, what loyalty is and what we’re looking at with this client is a source of customer intelligence that the business can really, really leverage, right?

Elie: To make sure that they have brand relevance in the right places across all their channels.

Elie: And so I think that that’s a little bit of a shift as well in terms of how we’re making the business look at loyalty and what it can bring in terms of that customer intelligence.

Charlie: Yeah, I think that’s really interesting.

Charlie: We’re seeing that with a lot of programs at the moment, which is actually that shift from actually, how can I sell more or cross-sell and upsell?

Charlie: So actually, what can I learn in order to operate my business better?

Charlie: It’s almost the Dunhumpy principles of where Tesco Clubcard and the big industry store started, but we’re really seeing that come to the fore and actually seeing it’s played in business cases for the first time, which is really interesting trying to attribute actual value to that, shift that perception of the loyalty program across the business.

Charlie: Those are two really cool examples.

Charlie: I’m dying to know who they are.

Charlie: I’ll ask you when we’re off recording.

Charlie: Sorry, everybody else, there’s got to be some advantages to being a host.

Charlie: Well, look, Elie, thank you so much.

Charlie: That was such an interesting episode, hopefully we’ve covered some really good topics for our listeners.

Charlie: If anyone has any questions for you or would like to follow up on any of it, what’s the best way for them to reach out to you?

Elie: Feel free to find me on LinkedIn.

Elie: My name is obvious and very, very singular, so I should be easy to find.

Charlie: You’re the one.

Charlie: Mine isn’t.

Charlie: There’s loads and loads of me.

Charlie: I had to be Charlie Hills1 and do that clever thing in the early days of LinkedIn, where you could own that profile.

Charlie: Well, so for everyone, we’ll pop the link for Elie in the show notes as well.

Charlie: All that’s left for me to say is thank you so much.

Charlie: Brilliant episode, great content, and it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Charlie: Thank you for coming.

Elie: Thank you so much.

Elie: See you soon.

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