Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.
Paula: So today’s show is brought to you by Epsilon and their People Cloud Loyalty Solution, which is a powerful platform that boasts over 50 years converting casual customers into lifetime fans.
Paula: Epsilon’s technology and services operate at the core of the publicist group worldwide, powering brands such as Dell, Dunkin, Gap and Walgreens.
Paula: And their platform is designed to give all of their clients the power and flexibility to create one-of-a-kind emotional connections with their customers.
Paula: Epsilon’s People Cloud Loyalty is a market-leading end-to-end solution and it is in fact the only company that has been named a leader in both the loyalty technology platforms and the loyalty services providers Forrester Waves in 2019.
Paula: As you can imagine, I’m delighted to be working with Epsilon and creating awareness of their People Cloud Loyalty solution.
Paula: So if you want more information, visit their website at emea.epsilon.com forward slash let’s talk loyalty or drop me an email and I’ll put you in touch.
Paula: That website again is emea.epsilon.com forward slash let’s talk loyalty.
Paula: Now, let’s get on with the interview.
Paula: Welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: As you would have heard in the introduction, I am working very closely this year with Epsilon, and I’m delighted to welcome today Joseph Taylor, who’s the Senior Vice President of International Operations.
Paula: Now Joseph is the Senior Vice President of Technology Operations for Epsilon, and has a great background that includes time back.
Paula: In the British Army at the start of his career, followed by an MBA from Henley University, and now over 20 years international experience, covering everything from analytics, engineering, operations and customer relationship management, working for brands such as Nokia and Adidas.
Paula: So first and foremost, I’d like to welcome Joseph Taylor to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Joseph: Thanks Paula, it’s a pleasure to be on your podcast.
Paula: Fantastic, great stuff Joseph.
Paula: Now, as you know, I start every show asking about our favorite loyalty statistics.
Paula: So before we get into all of your lovely loyalty background, tell me, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?
Joseph: There are so many statistics that I could quote.
Joseph: My favorite loyalty statistic is the one from Epsilon’s analysis of its own clients, and it’s about program members.
Joseph: The fact that on average program members spend three times more than non-members.
Joseph: It’s a great statistic for marketers considering launching a loyalty program, or those that are looking at refreshing an existing one as well.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: And the fact that it comes from Epsilon clients as well means you have access to the full overall market and what’s going on.
Joseph: Yes, that’s right.
Joseph: It erupts different verticals as well.
Paula: Great.
Paula: Well, listen, we’ll get into all of that.
Paula: Before we start talking about your current role, tell us about your own loyalty background, Joseph.
Joseph: I’ve been working in customer management for about two decades now, spanning across different functions.
Joseph: I started working client-side, working in technology field, generating customer insights, leading various teams to build and manage digital customer experiences, and then also designing big data platforms for brands such as Nokia and Adidas.
Paula: Great.
Joseph: One of these, for example, big data projects was about sharing fitness workout data with global wellness loyalty programs, such as Ping An Rewards and Vitality Rewards.
Joseph: The programs themselves were great examples of how they reward their members beyond just financial transactions.
Joseph: It’s got a nice sort of experience to have, and without even having to necessarily push myself into the loyalty field then.
Joseph: Then from then, I moved on to the marketing domain, and one of the initiatives that I led, and I was at Adidas, was rolling out their loyalty program across a few different markets.
Joseph: From there, I moved to Epsilon, and I’m currently advising and supporting other brands on CRM and loyalty.
Paula: Okay, fantastic.
Paula: And I remember you telling me previously, Joseph, that you ended up, I suppose, wanting to work for Epsilon because they impressed you so much during their whole RFP phase for the Adidas project.
Joseph: So Epsilon was one of the vendors that took part in the sort of platform RFP that they had.
Joseph: And at the time was the loyalty program manager for Adidas.
Joseph: They came in, they presented their platform, their experience and also the brands they work with.
Joseph: The bit that really impressed me is obviously that they have a very incredible amount of focus on performance, on their automation capabilities and also the number of experts at hand to be able to answer so many different questions, whether they came from finance or procurement or security, that they just, they were able to pull so many different people and answered every single question.
Joseph: So it looked quite an incredible company.
Joseph: And then an opportunity came up to support Epsilon in growing their CRM and loyalty operations outside of the US.
Joseph: I knew about their clients, I knew about some of their people and their technologies.
Joseph: So I didn’t really want to miss out on it.
Joseph: And I thought, right, I’ll apply for it.
Joseph: And it’s been an amazing journey ever since.
Joseph: It was quite a great sort of experience.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I love what you said there, Joseph, about experts on hand, because I know what it’s like, you know, launching a brand new loyalty program and probably most of the time feeling like I really hadn’t got a clue half the time what I was doing at the very beginning.
Paula: So to know that your technology vendor actually has those experts, you know, for all the really nitty gritty questions, and that’s amazing to kind of get that sense at the very early stage of a process.
Joseph: It helps, right?
Joseph: I mean, it’s such a, loyalty is such a broad domain.
Joseph: It’s, you know, it’s, it touches so many different aspects.
Joseph: So I think having access to so many different people really, really helps you to make sure that you’re planning, you know, such a broad, not just the exactly, exactly.
Joseph: It’s a broad budget that you’re gonna need to make sure you cover.
Paula: Great stuff.
Paula: So given your kind of extensive background then both on the client side, and obviously now on the vendor side, what I suppose do you see are the biggest challenges facing brands and clients of Epsilon today?
Joseph: It’s a good question.
Joseph: So customers are very informed about points based reward programs and how they work.
Joseph: And there are so many of them to choose from, especially in the retail space.
Joseph: But one of the greatest challenges that brands are facing today is how they differentiate and how they innovate their loyalty programs.
Joseph: We’re talking about transformation.
Joseph: It’s about how they go beyond just their traditional rewards points based programs to a more experiential one.
Joseph: And I think this is where the brands can really differentiate.
Joseph: I mean, there are some great examples out there, like Starbucks Rewards, Amazon Prime.
Joseph: They’re building strong emotional brand connection with their customers.
Joseph: So to build such a connection, right, that these marketers are creating unique experiences and services, most other brands are finding it hard to copy.
Paula: Exactly, and I guess that’s the whole point.
Paula: So what do you say to your clients when they come to you with a challenge like that?
Paula: So, you know, transformation, I hear as a word, constantly coming through, and I think every company is talking about transformation, although it’s usually ideally planned transformation rather than the current environment.
Paula: So what do you say to brands, you know, when they’re facing these challenges?
Joseph: So when we work with brands, I think, you know, one of the things that we definitely do is we take time to listen and understand.
Joseph: You know, trying to identify who their customers are, understand what behaviors their customers exhibit, but also what can the brands themselves do to influence their members’ behavior in order to build that emotional brand connection.
Joseph: So when we engage with the clients, we want to know what they’re trying to achieve out of loyalty marketing.
Joseph: You know, we appreciate that it’s a big investment.
Joseph: So we want to make sure that we look just, you know, beyond just the program design.
Joseph: Yes, we go into the platform setup, the migration, the operations, how we go into all of those things.
Joseph: But again, the overall goal really for us is to help them create a sustainable program over time.
Joseph: So whilst technology can help, you know, in building the brand comms, in generating insights about their members, we really want to help brands create a true loyalty.
Joseph: And we do that by starting looking at how do we drive brand loyalty.
Paula: Lovely, lovely.
Paula: And I guess, you know, because you’ve worked in global roles as well, as you mentioned, you probably see quite different approach from loyalty programs in different regions of the world.
Paula: So I’d love to hear any learnings, I suppose, that you have from different countries.
Joseph: Sure, you know, very much so.
Joseph: So when we talk about sort of, again, global programs, right?
Joseph: So the context of global programs, Epsilon, we work with a lot of brands that operate globally and they require a more adaptable strategy and adaptable framework.
Joseph: They need to look into the differences, the local cultural differences in their member experience, but also in the engagement plan itself.
Joseph: So when it comes to member experience, we’re seeing brands investing heavily in mobile experiences, typically fully integrate with wallets and also with payment solutions as well.
Joseph: Then when it comes to the engagement part, we’re also seeing other examples of mobile loyalty.
Joseph: Again, I mean, if you look at sort of markets like Asia, for example, they have some really great examples of this.
Joseph: We’re talking about managing and building an experience within a mobile ecosystem where you’ve got all sorts of different capabilities.
Joseph: You have messaging, you’ve got payments, you’ve got rewards, service and fulfillment.
Joseph: So it’s quite a nice, interesting environment that perhaps in places like, for example, Western Europe or in the US, you don’t have such a sort of an all-encompassing ecosystem, mobile environment to play with.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And I think you specifically said China is developing comprehensive solutions within a mini program.
Paula: So I’d love to hear a bit more about what you’ve seen in China.
Joseph: Yeah, sure, absolutely.
Joseph: So in China, I mean, China has gone quite, just like what we’ve got over here in the US, right?
Joseph: Where you’ve got your Amazons, your Facebooks and your Googles of this world.
Joseph: You’ve got a similar sort of interesting ecosystem, what we call consumer platforms in China as well.
Joseph: You’ve got the Dibidus, the Tencent, and you’ve also got, you’ve got your Alibaba.
Joseph: So you’ve got ecosystems that have got, they can provide you with e-commerce, they can provide you with messaging, they can provide you with all sorts of different capabilities, all built within an app.
Joseph: So for example, with China specifically, we work with some luxury clients of ours, where they are building an entire, what we call a mini program, which is like a mini app, built inside WeChat, for example.
Joseph: Again, why?
Joseph: Because within that, they can talk to them, they can take payments from it, they can provide them very small micro rewards, they can even deliver direct service, customer service, and they can even provide different forms of fulfillment.
Joseph: Why?
Joseph: Because it’s so easy to connect other parties just all within the app.
Joseph: So it’s quite an amazing experience, but again, it’s such a different design, such a different plan, such a different complete piece of implementation where it’s so different than everything else that you’re doing, perhaps in other markets.
Paula: And it sounds like I can hear the passion for loyalty coming through there, Joseph, because in China, I know what I’ve also heard is exactly this situation where it’s one massive platform and everything is controlled in a completely different way, and yet you probably have the same client that needs to execute in France and Russia and all these other countries as well.
Paula: So the geographical diversity must be very interesting to work with.
Joseph: Absolutely, absolutely.
Joseph: And again, it’s going to be hard for you to know everything all the time, and that’s also why you rely on the local experts, and perhaps even sometimes you have to partner with others that have got a lot more experience in that field itself.
Joseph: And you also need to reach out to the actual consumer platform providers themselves as well, because they also want you to try and innovate and use the latest feature and greatest function.
Joseph: So there’s a lot of collaboration that takes place and it’s quite a nice, fun environment to work in as well.
Paula: Yeah, and I always think, actually, as loyalty professionals, we do get to collaborate a lot.
Paula: So to your point earlier about it has to work from a technology point of view, it has to work from a commercial point of view, and everything down to the detail of what data can we get.
Paula: So all the inputs and outputs really do give you an opportunity to work across the company.
Joseph: Exactly.
Paula: Brilliant, great stuff.
Paula: So I suppose we can’t go too far these days without referencing COVID-19.
Paula: And we all know, obviously, loyalty programs are completely designed to be rewarding for consumers and rewarding for the brands themselves.
Paula: But I do think there seems to be some pressure on, I suppose, the liability and concerns around that at this particular time.
Paula: So what are you actually seeing in terms of loyalty program liability right now?
Joseph: So we see different types of issues with program liability across client programs.
Joseph: I mean, what we’re talking about here is the, it’s accounting for the cost of outstanding, unredeemed points here.
Joseph: So we have experience of working with new programs that have got low redemption rates.
Joseph: It’s usually, there are multiple factors that can cause this, but we can talk about things such as low redemption rates because of their members take too long to earn enough points for the reward, or members are not really interested in the rewards that are on offer.
Joseph: In some cases, even, either members might not be able to access a particular reward because they’re not able to get to get it at that particular point in time.
Joseph: But we’re also seeing liability challenges with also successful programs as well.
Joseph: As the program matures and it becomes more successful, it’s what you’d expect, right?
Joseph: You get people earning more points, therefore you’re issuing more points as the program matures.
Joseph: There are also, the same would happen for outstanding unused points as well.
Joseph: And then typically as you go up the tiers, then you also get much higher points.
Joseph: And if you’re not monitoring it properly, the program liability starts going through the roof.
Joseph: And so fixing it, it’s not something that you could do very quickly, very easily, right?
Joseph: There are some short tactical things that you could do.
Joseph: Like for example, you can create auctions, sweepstakes.
Joseph: You can even introduce low cost rewards, right?
Joseph: To try and encourage people to redeem a lot more often and also reduce your overall liability.
Joseph: But you also need to watch out for the cost of issuing those reports and also the cost of fulfilling them as well.
Paula: Absolutely, absolutely.
Joseph: But then you also need sort of a more mid to long-term plan on how you go about smartly managing this liability.
Joseph: So yeah, so when you go and start looking into that sort of mid to longer term, we’re talking about ultimately changing the structure of the program.
Joseph: We’re looking at, for example, changing the rewards catalog a little bit, remove some unused, unwanted rewards.
Joseph: You might want to source more attractive rewards at a cheaper rate.
Joseph: You might also want to look at perhaps changing some of the expiration rules around the points piece.
Joseph: Or even deferring when you issue the rewards, because you want to make sure that you’re maintaining a certain level of healthy profit across the program.
Joseph: It’s a delicate subject.
Joseph: We typically, again, ask clients to partner with their finance colleagues because you want them to make sure, okay, what are we going to measure?
Joseph: What are we going to monitor?
Joseph: How are we going to make sure we forecast that liability?
Joseph: We know that from a business perspective, it works for them and it works for the members as well.
Joseph: It’s a bit like what Peter Drucker said back, who knows how long it was, right?
Joseph: What gets measured gets managed and it’s what we’re trying to encourage our clients to do.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And I do think right now, actually, it’s a particular time where there’s possibly more attention coming through from the C-suite, I suppose, in terms of the value.
Paula: Managing costs.
Paula: Yeah, totally managing costs, but also, I suppose, respecting the opportunity and the customer relationship, where before it might have been just around sending out offers and promotions and discounts, but now, as you said earlier, actually, it is much more around building emotional connections, and I think the appreciation that we actually have a loyalty program and a way to talk to our customers, I think it suddenly elevates the entire program in a business.
Joseph: That’s right, that’s right.
Joseph: It’s also kind of something that Epsilon has been talking about, which this whole sort of big L loyalty concept, which we probably have also.
Paula: Yes, you mentioned it, but I don’t know what it means, so tell me.
Joseph: Okay, yeah, sure, no worries.
Joseph: So yeah, the bigger little L concept is quite an interesting one.
Joseph: So little L is your traditional points-based program that offers rewards in exchange for purchase transactions, right?
Joseph: There are so many programs out there, they’re very, very similar from that perspective because you know how many purchase transactions you need to, you know how many things you need to buy in order to earn X number of points.
Joseph: But then you’ve also got the other type of loyalty programs.
Joseph: We call them the Big L programs and they’re an experiential loyalty program.
Joseph: It taps into that emotional connection between the brand and the loyalty members.
Joseph: So it’s not just about the program, but it’s about knowing how do you identify your members even after transactions or beyond transactions.
Joseph: So whether they’re talking or following your brand on social, whether it’s what they’re saying about your service and about your product, right?
Joseph: You’re trying to build that emotional brand connection beyond just that one-off transaction.
Joseph: So at Epsilon, we spend time with clients to just do just that, is to look at their brand identity, understand what they stand for, analyze how they connect with their members when they’re not transacting, and also understand what behaviors they want them to exhibit.
Joseph: So then we look at their internal capabilities, we look at brand assets that they’ve got, and what can we use from that to drive that behavioral change?
Joseph: Again, to do one simple thing, which is to build that deeper customer engagement and help them reward our members in a different way that others can’t copy.
Paula: Lovely, lovely.
Paula: So in future, when I’m evaluating a loyalty program, the first thing to do is check whether the L is a capital L or a little L.
Paula: Brilliant, brilliant.
Paula: But I think you’re absolutely right, Joseph, because we know as human beings, we have a left brain and a right brain, and we evaluate things.
Paula: I think we sometimes think that we’re very scientific and there is a transactional piece, which is around, do this and get that, which obviously loyalty programs started from.
Paula: But I think it’s quite a few years now where we’ve kind of gone, do you know what, that’s just very functional.
Paula: So if your program doesn’t go beyond that into doing something that a consumer actually kind of goes, oh wow, now I really like this brand.
Paula: Even if that’s a subconscious recognition, I really think that’s the type of loyalty that everyone listening to this podcast absolutely is looking to build.
Joseph: Absolutely.
Joseph: You want to get into loyalty marketing because you want to drive members that are, you want to be able to engage with members that are loyal to your brand, not specifically loyal to your program.
Joseph: You want to connect with why is it that they prefer your brand over others, right?
Joseph: There’s something either within your service, within your experience, it could be also within the products that you offer, but again, you’re trying to connect with them differently than just simply it’s all about points and how many products can I sell you.
Joseph: It’s completely different.
Joseph: And again, this is what you see with the likes of Amazon Prime, for example, right?
Joseph: The service that they deliver and the type of emotional connection that they build with people like us, it’s again, it’s because of what they deliver.
Joseph: It’s something that we can’t find elsewhere.
Joseph: It’s not something that we can automatically switch and there’s a different shop on the high street that can really replicate what they deliver.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And you know, I’m even gonna wrap something you said there, Joseph, I wrote it down.
Paula: You said, do you want people to be loyal to your program or loyal to your brand?
Paula: And to me, that is an extraordinary observation really, because they are literally opposite ends of the goalposts, aren’t they?
Paula: It’s like, you know, we can all have a program, but that is exactly what your competitors will come along and copy.
Paula: But if you are loyal to the brands, that definitely it’s, you’re in an entirely different ballpark right there.
Joseph: Absolutely.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: So one of the brands you worked for was Adidas, as you mentioned already.
Paula: And you spoke to me before about the amazing kind of customer focus, I suppose, that you saw very much at the top of the company.
Paula: And you saw amazing stuff that went on in their different markets around the world.
Paula: So tell us about your experience on the Adidas project.
Joseph: So the Adidas loyalty program, it’s now called the Creators Club.
Joseph: And I think for me, again, it’s another great example of a bigger loyalty program.
Joseph: It recognizes members beyond just, you know, their shopping transactions.
Joseph: For example, they reward points to their members for showing how they wear their products on social media.
Joseph: They even reward them, for example, for providing product and service review, because that data is important to the brand, evolve their products, evolve their service.
Joseph: They also reward individuals for completing fitness workouts.
Joseph: Because again, it ties up into their mantra of sports changes people’s lives.
Joseph: So again, it’s all about that brand loyalty, that brand affinity.
Joseph: So during the time I was there, I was able to run out the program to four different markets.
Joseph: That’s France, Germany, Brazil and Russia.
Paula: Okay.
Joseph: Now, as I said earlier, again, running a global program, it’s all about paying that special attention to those local cultural differences.
Joseph: So we had a big rewards catalog to choose from.
Joseph: We were able to test out lots of different techniques on how we get consumers to react to these different benefits.
Joseph: So for instance, in Japan, we know that consumers were much more interested in exclusive limited edition products, but they were less interested in, for example, in getting early access to sales or to promotions.
Paula: Ah, yes.
Joseph: Yeah.
Paula: And then on the…
Joseph: Exactly, exactly.
Joseph: So, but then, I mean, on the other hand, you’ve got a completely different response when you look at, for example, markets like Brazil and Russia, where their members were interested in the special promotions.
Joseph: They were also interested in finding out a bit more about these new collections and how do I get special access before everybody else in the markets has access.
Joseph: So again, say it’s kind of, you’re looking at these different local differences between the markets, but it goes beyond just rewards.
Joseph: We’ve also seen that, for example, from an engagement perspective, and as it’s kind of highlighted around the engagement part, for example, in Asia, a lot of the member engagement was happening through social media channels, where again, the brand is promoting community-based fitness events.
Joseph: Get them to try the products, get them to visit the store, get them to talk to other members of the program, and again, you’re also using it as a recruitment opportunity as well.
Joseph: So it completely different, for example, than what we had in France, where it started off as an initial sort of retail-driven loyalty program, and then bit by bit moved to online and so on.
Joseph: So again, it’s understanding the differences, because again, you have to do your research.
Joseph: You have to understand the different markets, and you can’t assume that one solution is going to fit in all markets.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: But I guess what I’m hearing is what you were successfully able to do was identify one underlying technology platform that had the flexibility, features and capabilities to, I suppose, dial up certain things in certain countries, depending on what the consumers are going to react to.
Joseph: We also need to remember that there’s more to a loyalty program than just the platform as well.
Joseph: So I think one of the things that I want to highlight is that you need to also have a structure that is set up for success.
Joseph: From my experience of being involved in a loyalty program, I think you’re always going to have your subject method experts from different functions, whether that’s finance, your retail, your e-commerce, your IT colleagues, but you also need to get on board with the markets, especially if you’re rolling out to different markets, you need to understand their needs, their challenges, also their own commercial objectives because whatever you’re trying to drive, it needs to make sure it’s aligned with theirs as well.
Joseph: And then the one big, most important piece of all of this is you also need to have some senior stakeholders who are there.
Joseph: First of all, they need to believe in your program and the impact that you can achieve with that.
Joseph: But also they’re there to help you unblock issues both at the global level and local levels, right?
Joseph: Because there’s always going to be lots of multiple initiatives going on, but you need that one or two individual sort of senior stakeholders that are able to guide and are able to unblock things at different levels.
Paula: Great, yeah.
Paula: And that makes perfect sense, actually.
Paula: I can’t imagine any loyalty program really being successful without that level of senior direction and support.
Paula: So absolutely true.
Paula: And the other piece I suppose that we see coming through increasingly is the regulations around data privacy.
Paula: And again, I know you’ve got amazing experience of all of the different countries and how all of that works.
Paula: So tell us a bit about your thoughts on data protection in the current world and how they’re impacting loyalty programs.
Joseph: So brands like Bubblist and Epsilon, they operate globally and they have to comply with different privacy regulations.
Joseph: I think that about 44 of them now globally, you’ve got GDPR, right, which we know came into effect in 2018.
Joseph: Then this year is CCPA in California.
Joseph: I mean, China, cybersecurity law back in 2017, you’ve got so many of them.
Joseph: So as a brand, of course, you need to be monitoring all of these different regulations, but I think you also need a holistic approach, a holistic way of how to manage compliance with these, across these different regulations.
Joseph: And again, obviously, there’s a technology aspect of it.
Joseph: And again, how do you manage and process your data?
Joseph: Where do you store it?
Joseph: But also how do you comply with the various different auditing requirements?
Joseph: Because again, different markets will have different needs.
Joseph: I mean, GDPR is one thing, which is all about making sure that you tell your members how you’re using their data, how you’re processing their data, where you store in it.
Joseph: But I think you’ve got markets, for example, like China and Russia, which have even more restrictive approach.
Joseph: For example, they require you to have data stored in the markets, what we call data localization, which makes it a bit harder, because again, you’re thinking, I’m gonna have one big approach and it’s gonna work.
Joseph: And unfortunately, it doesn’t always work that way.
Joseph: So yeah, so it definitely poses challenges, but it can also be a win-win for the brand and for the consumers as well, right?
Joseph: So I wrote a blog post in November last year on how effective privacy management can transform a loyalty program.
Paula: Oh, nice.
Joseph: And it’s based on three principles.
Joseph: It’s the principles of respect, recognition and protection.
Joseph: So we’re talking about the need for brands to respect their members, to be able to deliver on that value exchange through appropriate personalization.
Joseph: So if I’m asking you for data, it’s because I wanna use it to be more relevant and also to be more personal.
Joseph: And then also the importance of protecting their rights as a consumer.
Joseph: So again, we’ve collected your data, but we’re gonna try and give you control back as to, okay, what do you want me to use and allow me to leverage from that?
Paula: Know that that’s a really good insight.
Paula: I just wanted to pick up on when you mentioned giving control back.
Paula: And I remember actually writing about a particular quick service restaurant in fact in the UK.
Paula: And this was quite recently, I’m going to say in the last six months or so, but it was the very first time that when I wanted to update my details on their database, they sent me a direct link into access the entire database of my information.
Paula: And I could literally delete my entire profile.
Paula: I could update things.
Paula: And I can honestly say the level of reassurance that I felt from that brand, and I suppose just the overall level of trust, knowing that they were giving me access to, delete if you want to, you know, add whatever you want, you know, just that level of relationship is something that technology does become an opportunity rather than just, you know, again, legislation is, you know, sometimes seen as something difficult to manage, but I love that you’ve kind of positioned it as an opportunity.
Joseph: It is, it is.
Joseph: And again, one of the practical ways we do this is exactly what you said.
Joseph: We call it the personal data vault, because again, it’s just a space.
Joseph: It’s just a space that typically a brand builds either with their own agencies or maybe we help them to do that.
Paula: Yeah.
Joseph: Again, it’s giving the individual members access to how to manage their preferences, their interests and their wish lists.
Joseph: As you said, it’s just a way of earning respect, but at the same time, you’re also being compliant and in itself service.
Joseph: So they don’t need to phone you up or go through lots of different tickets and taking ages to know, hey, when is this gonna happen?
Joseph: Have they really done it?
Joseph: So it’s a lot more transparent, I think as well.
Paula: Good, good, good.
Paula: Well, I’m delighted to hear you’re recommending that because as I said, I obviously study an awful lot of loyalty programs and I’ve actually only seen it once as a consumer.
Paula: So the more that you guys can push that out and again, loyalty managers listening, I’m sure will be kind of thinking, okay, can I do that?
Paula: And should I do that?
Paula: Because I think the answer is very much a yes.
Joseph: Absolutely.
Joseph: And then it does work.
Joseph: It does work.
Joseph: And in some cases, they can go in and update it, which makes your life a lot more easier because you’re not figuring out from something that didn’t work.
Joseph: The members are proactively managing their own data, which is quite nice.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Well, listen, we’re coming towards the end of the show now, Joseph.
Paula: And some of the final questions, I suppose, first of all, is around resources.
Paula: Because again, we’re all here to learn from each other.
Paula: So I wanted to ask you, where do you keep up to date in terms of loyalty marketing overall?
Paula: And what resources do you recommend for listeners?
Joseph: So I read a lot of different resources, and like everybody else, I read the papers, I read specific journals.
Joseph: But I think the one that I would definitely recommend is to read the articles published in the Wise Marketer newsletter.
Paula: Yeah.
Joseph: It’s filled with the latest loyalty news, right?
Joseph: It comes out regularly.
Joseph: I mean, you get to hear about lots of different programs from around the world.
Joseph: They also publish some loyalty research and insights from different sectors as well.
Joseph: So I think it’s useful not just for specific verticals like retail, but it cuts across a lot of different domains.
Joseph: Then, I mean, it’s also how I, by the way, came across to learn about your Let’s Talk Loyalty podcast.
Joseph: I think it’s one of the best podcasts I came across, to be fair.
Paula: That’s very sweet of you.
Joseph: No, it’s a pleasure.
Joseph: I mean, we get to learn new things from different loyalty professionals each week.
Joseph: And I think that’s quite nice.
Joseph: I mean, you’ve had, for example, Simon Rolls before as well, who was talking again about loyalty innovation and some of the different startups he works with.
Joseph: So each week you’ve got somebody different, completely different topic.
Joseph: And again, it’s all related, but again, you always pick up those little nuggets up.
Joseph: Thank you for that.
Joseph: I think it’s a great resource.
Joseph: And I hope your listeners and others will start tuning in a lot more and doing a lot more research around this field.
Paula: Thank you.
Joseph: There are lots of insights being published by various marketing, market research agencies around the changing consumer behaviors.
Joseph: You’ve got agencies like Nielsen, IRI, Kantar, You Gov and even Ipsos.
Joseph: Each year, these reports will have some information about some market research they’ve done about the shopping behaviors, but also what do they think about loyalty programs?
Joseph: And we’ve seen some of these reports, for example, recently around, what do millennials think of loyalty?
Joseph: What do millennials, how do millennials shop differently than everybody else, right?
Joseph: There are always these little nuggets to take away from these reports.
Joseph: And again, you can apply those in the loyalty programs.
Joseph: So I think there’s a practical aspect in this whole piece.
Joseph: And then finally, we’ve also got the, being an Epsilon employee, I’ve also got the privilege of getting internal updates from some of the clients that we work with globally.
Joseph: And again, it’s about, how do I explore a lot more about how the different programs are performing and how they keep innovating them as well.
Paula: Yeah, I think, yeah, that’s also a really good point.
Paula: There’s just, I suppose, an opportunity to stay curious and that’s what I hear coming through from your side.
Paula: Like you love to see what’s going on in all the various programs and see how that applies to the rest of your clients.
Joseph: Absolutely, it’s such a creative domain, right?
Joseph: You have to constantly keep an eye out on, finding out different techniques, see how others have solved different problems and then again, test them out and see whether they work for you or not as well.
Paula: Okay, so listen, I’ll make sure in the show notes to put in your own blog post that you wrote last November, Joseph, so we’ll make sure to do that.
Paula: And then all of the resources that you recommended, such as Kantar and You Gov, again, they’re on my radar, but not everybody listening might have come across them.
Paula: So we’ll definitely link to those.
Paula: And of course, to the Epsilon EMEA website.
Paula: So there’s links through to all of the resources available from Epsilon directly.
Paula: So I think that’s it from my side, Joseph.
Paula: Is there anything else that you want to add before we wrap up?
Joseph: No, I think I just wanted to sort of just finish up by saying that there are some great marketers out there doing some amazing work to refresh and reinvent their loyalty programs all the time.
Joseph: I think in the light of the current challenges, whether it’s to do with the economy, whether it’s Brexit or any other sort of crises, right?
Joseph: Loyalty programs are still gonna be an effective way for a brand to communicate and build those long lasting relationships with their best customers.
Joseph: So I honestly encourage loyalty members to look at their members beyond just their purchase transactions.
Joseph: And again, see what brand assets you’ve got and then find out, learn how to build that emotional, use them to build the emotional bond to create a brand equity.
Joseph: It’s what we call Big L and it’s the true loyalty, honestly.
Paula: Love it, love it, Joseph.
Paula: Okay, well listen, I’ve learned loads and really enjoyed talking to you about all those amazing stories.
Paula: So certainly from Let’s Talk Loyalty, want to say thank you so much to Joseph Taylor.
Joseph: Thanks for that.
Paula: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.
Paula: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training, both online and in workshops around the world through its loyalty academy, which has already certified over 150 executives in 18 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: For more information, check out www.thewisemarketeer.com and www.loyaltyacademy.org.
Paula: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com, and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.
Paula: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform.
Paula: Find Let’s Talk Loyalty and subscribe.
Paula: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews, and thanks again for supporting the show.
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