Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for Loyalty Marketing Professionals.
Paula: I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in Loyalty Marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from Loyalty Specialists around the world.
Paula: This episode is brought to you by Epsilon and their award-winning People Cloud Loyalty Solution.
Paula: Epsilon has actually just released a guide on the topic of Contactless Loyalty, which explores how marketeers can create human-like connections with their customers in an increasingly contactless world.
Paula: I would highly recommend you have a look.
Paula: So to download the guide, visit emia.epsilon.com forward slash let’s talk loyalty and you’ll find the guide in the resources section.
Paula: So welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: And as most of you will know, particularly if you’ve been listening for for quite a while, I have first been sponsored with this amazing show with a fantastic technology partner.
Paula: So Epsilon is an extraordinary company, powering some of the most powerful loyalty programs around the world.
Paula: And I’ve been working with Epsilon since April of this year.
Paula: And first and foremost, the two episodes we’ve done together in terms of guests are some of my most listened to episodes of the show.
Paula: So for regular listeners, if you haven’t listened to episode 33 with Joseph Taylor or episode 46 with Mitch Kennedy from Dell, then definitely do tune in to those.
Paula: So today I am delighted to be talking to two of the ladies who are key and integral to the role of loyalty within Epsilon.
Paula: So first of all, I have Julie Smith, who is the Vice President of Development for Loyalty.
Paula: And separately, I also have Tamara Oliverio, who is the Senior Director of Strategy, Loyalty and Customer Experience.
Paula: So Julie and Tamara, welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: So you’re up bright and early on a Monday morning.
Paula: So first and foremost, want to thank you for coming on air.
Paula: And as you know, we’ve done lots of amazing shows.
Paula: I think we’re on, I think episode 59 now with you guys together.
Paula: And my favorite opening question is always this about really talking about loyalty statistics that can be super useful for listeners.
Paula: So maybe Tamara, you might start by telling us what is your favorite loyalty statistic?
Paula: Sure.
Tamara: So mine actually comes from some Epsilon research that we recently did.
Tamara: And it was that loyalty members actually can spend three times more as non-members.
Tamara: And that stat alone is just incredibly powerful in what loyalty can do for brands.
Tamara: So understanding, driving the incremental behavior and motivating and rewarding people for doing.
Tamara: So it’s a very powerful stat for every brand to understand.
Tamara: So that’s my favorite.
Paula: Wonderful, thank you for that.
Paula: And I know we’ll get into your background now in a couple of minutes, but what I do love is obviously you have access to some very big loyalty programs and talking to the senior people leading them.
Paula: So to have the insights, I suppose, coming from those kinds of programs and scale is always super interesting.
Paula: So I’m a little bit jealous of your job.
Tamara: We’re hiring.
Paula: Oh my goodness, that’s amazing.
Paula: Don’t tempt me.
Paula: Julie, now tell me, you’re more on the tech side, which again is gonna be absolutely fascinating to hear what you’re seeing and see what you’re thinking about in terms of your roadmap.
Paula: But first of all, again, want to ask you exactly the same question.
Paula: Tell me, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?
Julie: The one that’s kind of intrigued me is the one where the average consumer is part of so many loyalty programs, 14 to 18 on average, but you’re only active in a small percentage of those, right?
Julie: And so why I love that stat is that it reinforces the fact that the programs have to find ways to differentiate themselves, right?
Julie: And so you have to be different than your competitor or someone else in that.
Julie: And why that’s interesting to me from the technical perspective is because that’s a challenge for me and my technology to be able to support a wide variety of programs that have to be out there.
Julie: And so they are differentiating themselves and still able to solve that problem with our technology.
Julie: So that’s kind of an interesting challenge for us.
Paula: It sure is, Julie.
Paula: And I’ve always been intrigued, actually.
Paula: I worked once in a technology company.
Paula: It was a small startup now in Dublin.
Paula: So not at all on the scale of what Epsilon does, but prioritizing developments for clients because clearly at the end of the day, like we all have this unlimited wish list of what our technology can do.
Paula: So how on earth you manage that?
Paula: I’m dying to understand.
Paula: So before we get into all of that, actually, tell us about your loyalty background, I suppose from both sides.
Paula: Maybe, Julie, as we’re talking, tell me, I know you’ve been with Epsilon quite a long time.
Julie: I have, actually.
Julie: I was in technology and that’s where I studied, but then I fell in with Epsilon and I’ve been in loyalty technology with Epsilon for 18 years.
Julie: And that’s how I’ve actually learned the loyalty business is all the way through the technology and my career here.
Julie: So I got to work with a lot of different programs and big and small.
Julie: But that’s actually how I got into loyalty marketing was all the way through the technology.
Paula: And I always love to acknowledge employee loyalty.
Paula: And actually, I was talking genuinely to some colleagues of yours in the Asia Pacific region recently.
Paula: And I know Epsilon actually had a couple of days where everybody was just asked to take a day off.
Paula: And to me, that just showed like an incredible, I suppose, company culture.
Paula: So 18 years, you must have seen a hell of a lot, but clearly they’re doing something right to keep you there, huh?
Julie: I have, they have fantastic employees.
Julie: Like everybody I work with, it is the people absolutely that has kept me here and they’re very, very bright and challenging and it’s fantastic.
Julie: I love it here, obviously.
Paula: Yeah, never gets dull, huh?
Julie: No, no.
Paula: Brilliant.
Paula: And Tamara, tell us about your loyalty background.
Tamara: Sure, so I haven’t been here nearly as long as Julie, but it’ll be five years in May.
Tamara: I was brought on board to help design a loyalty program for General Motors.
Tamara: So my GM rewards.
Tamara: Sign up today.
Tamara: Yeah, on top of that.
Tamara: So my career has actually spanned about 20 years where I’ve been both on the client side and on the agency side.
Tamara: So always for the most part in loyalty or CRM, but interestingly enough, how I fell into loyalty is my degree is actually in public relations.
Tamara: And my first part of my career was in public relations and investor relations, where I had an assignment about this really cool, I worked for a company called Velasas in Lavonia, Michigan.
Tamara: And I started working on, I had an assignment around this really cool thing called the Aztec Code.
Tamara: And it was all about collecting data and what you can do with data.
Tamara: And I just fell in love with the whole concept and joined their startup and got involved with frequent shopper programs and CRM and loyalty and worked at borders, managed the loyalty program for borders, GasBuddy, ran rewards for GasBuddy and here I am.
Tamara: So now here we’re basically working with a number of very large brands on designing loyalty programs, improving their current loyalty programs.
Tamara: And it’s very exciting.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yes, yeah.
Paula: And I’m sure there’s just an ongoing extraordinary pipeline.
Paula: Do you focus mainly on US clients?
Paula: Do you work internationally?
Paula: Or because I know you do have an incredible number of colleagues around the world, but your team, you specifically focus on US programs.
Paula: Am I right?
Tamara: Specifically US programs, but we do a lot of programs that have global reach.
Tamara: So we do partner also with colleagues around the world in those different locations.
Tamara: So.
Paula: Yeah, wonderful.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: And I remember saying to you actually, when we spoke on the phone before tomorrow about your background in public relations, I think is just perfect, because I did read about one loyalty program just for listeners.
Paula: I’ll repeat myself, where the program was designed with the press release first.
Paula: So the headline was written and then the technology, the platform, the proposition was retrofitted to match up to the press release that the company wanted to release.
Paula: So I’m guessing you sometimes have very ambitious clients that start exactly the same way, huh?
Tamara: Yes.
Tamara: How a loyalty program comes about does vary from client to client, but that is certainly one way.
Paula: Yeah, but I definitely, I mean, I write a lot about loyalty, as I think you both know, and I do see an awful lot of coverage across all channels, whether it’s big news media websites, TV, so it genuinely has consumers’ interest.
Paula: So I think that’s absolutely superb.
Paula: I’m not sure every country is advanced in terms of monitoring and reporting on that.
Paula: So super exciting for you guys, huh?
Paula: Great.
Paula: So I’d love to get into a discussion, I suppose, around trends, really, because at the end of the day, everyone listening to this show, and at the moment, I think I was looking, there’s probably over 400 loyalty managers and directors around the world listening to every single episode.
Paula: So it’s a big audience.
Paula: And I think by virtue of the fact that they’re listening to podcasts, probably means they value innovation, they value new ideas and that’s what they’re here to listen for.
Paula: So tell us exactly what you’re seeing in terms of the industry.
Tamara: So yeah, since we’re talking global, I will say it does vary from market to market because to your point, the US market is extremely mature in comparison to other markets.
Tamara: So specific to the US, a big trend that we see right now is people wanting to reinvent their loyalty strategies because obviously in 2020, but even before 2020, there’s been a lot of disruption and the tactics and strategies of yesterday don’t necessarily work anymore, right?
Tamara: So you have to completely reinvent what your program strategies are.
Tamara: And I will say there are a number of reinventions underway right now that will be with specific in the US that will be launching in the near future, which we can’t talk about right now, but there are a lot of common themes to them that are around having more than just rewards and having the value proposition being more than just a discount, having convenience be a factor, obviously in the day of COVID, having a contactless experience and contactless loyalty is gonna be a really big key as well around the trends.
Tamara: Obviously mobile plays a big part in a lot of the new reinventions that we’re seeing, but I would say overall the general value proposition in terms of the value exchange a brand has with the consumer is being shaken up.
Tamara: So because what consumers perceive to be valuable, a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, isn’t necessarily the same as it is today.
Tamara: So there are things that are changing pretty drastically.
Paula: And I love that particularly, I do a lot of work in convenience retail and it’s something that I’ve noticed as well, Tamara, you’re absolutely right.
Paula: And again, this predates COVID, but where you can actually simplify the customer’s experience at the point of sale, be that in store or online, it really is about removing friction, about making it easy.
Paula: And actually it’s one of the reasons I did call this show Let’s Talk Loyalty, not Let’s Talk Loyalty Programs, because really the emotion of loyalty comes from the whole customer experience.
Paula: So that’s really cool that that’s coming through.
Paula: You’ll definitely have to make sure I get whatever press release you wish you about the new programs you alluded to there Tamara, because it sounds like there’s some interesting stuff up and coming.
Paula: So that’s really interesting.
Paula: And I suppose what format does it come to you?
Paula: Like would it come to you from senior executives that sit down to do a formal review and workshops on a, I suppose, a scheduled basis?
Paula: Do you conduct your own customer research or how does Epsilon, I suppose, keep up to date on those trends?
Tamara: Yeah, I would say all of the above.
Tamara: And we have a really in-depth group.
Tamara: Obviously Epsilon is very known for not just the technology and loads, but we have a huge data division too.
Tamara: So on top of that, we have access to a lot of data.
Tamara: We can understand and see a lot of trends.
Tamara: In fact, I know there’s, if you go to Epsilon, our website, there’s a lot of recent trends out there and information tied to COVID and how consumer dynamics are changing.
Tamara: But really it comes down to, you know, the client relationships we have and or new client relationships and just talking to different brands on a day-to-day basis to see what’s going on with their brands, what the challenges are and how we could help improve them.
Tamara: So in leaning in on what we’re seeing with the data, a lot of the decisions and recommendations that we make in terms of program optimization or evolution is tied to what the consumer data is telling us.
Tamara: And obviously, mirroring that up with what the brand needs are.
Tamara: And that’s how you come up with the value of exchange as the most appropriate.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And there was a couple of things that you did recently as well, which again, I think listeners will be very interested in.
Paula: First of all was Loyalty Week.
Paula: So I know there was a lot of amazing webinars that you guys did.
Paula: So I’ll make sure that we get access to those and share them in the show notes.
Paula: So anyone who wasn’t able to attend and some of us on inhospitable time zones, for example, didn’t get to listen live.
Paula: But also I know you’ve developed a loyalty assessment in conjunction with Forrester Research.
Paula: We did mention it on the show there a couple of weeks ago.
Paula: And I was saying to you all fair that I just went through that assessment myself with a previous client’s program, which shall remain nameless.
Paula: But it was a really good experience.
Paula: So maybe just talk to us a bit about that tool because I think everybody listening is always looking for validation, I suppose, in terms of how are they performing?
Paula: What areas maybe have they not looked at or thought about?
Paula: So can you talk a little bit about that loyalty tool?
Tamara: Sure, so I know if you have, like you said, if you go to the website, I think where it’s really helpful, putting my brand hat on, if I was on the client side, like I used to be, you’re in the day to day and you’re operating your program and you’re dealing with executive tool, working with executive management and executive leadership to get them the information and reporting and doing KPIs.
Tamara: So you don’t necessarily have the time to really say, okay, what should I do or what can I do next?
Tamara: What I really like about this tool, it’s just a quick five, maybe 10 minutes kind of exercise.
Tamara: And then there’s some immediate recommendations on areas you might wanna look at and consider exploring for future innovation.
Tamara: So it’s just being time crunched, we all time crunch, especially now, but especially if you’re on the brand side and operating a loyalty program, it’s a good way to kind of help guide what directions you might wanna lean into.
Paula: Absolutely, and again, having done a lot of client projects myself, I think it’s a great tool to take to senior management to say, look, we need to invest more.
Paula: We need to do more stuff because we haven’t got X, Y, or Z sorted.
Paula: So that’s brilliant, brilliant.
Paula: Julie, I want to bring you back in, I suppose, in terms of what trends you might be seeing in the industry.
Julie: From the technology side and the platform side, the trends are really more around how to get that loyalty experience in all of the touch points, right?
Julie: So Tamara talked a little bit about being mobile and convenient and everything.
Julie: And a lot of the work that we do is more around how do we connect the ecosystems of our clients so that loyalty is a way of life in that business, right?
Julie: Every part of that company understands what it is and understands how to engage and make it prominent in the conversation with the customer, no matter where you’re touching them, right?
Julie: Whether it’s on the mobile or at the website or in store or whatever the case may be.
Julie: And so getting all of those touch points to have the same data at the same time in real time and connected is really the challenge that we’ve been working on helping that loyalty execution, right?
Julie: On the operation side is a big part of what we’ve been doing probably in the past, you know, five years or so.
Julie: And now that we’ve got the framework to accomplish that and help our clients integrate to that and make that somewhat seamless, you know, you know, kind of our new vision or our next vision is a little bit what Tamara was talking about as far as the insights and proving the value and bringing all that data together and grabbing the right insights about that data at the right time to the loyalty marketer so they can continue to grow the program and expend in the right places and everything.
Julie: So gathering the data, the touch points is probably the trend and definitely more real time is the.
Julie: The way to get it all together.
Julie: A little bit.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I’m sure all of us are the same.
Paula: Like as consumers, we totally expect that the brands that we do interact with should have all of our data and it should be available across all touch points.
Paula: I think we probably underestimate the complexity and it’s only when we do go into run these big loyalty programs that we realize the challenge that people like you have, Julie, and making sure that it is at all of those touch points.
Paula: So I know you have a long roadmap as well ahead.
Paula: I think you ran some events you mentioned, for example, during Loyalty Week, talking about the product vision for the future.
Paula: So can you tell us a bit about where you’re going with the technology?
Julie: Yeah, so like I said, the last focus has been, the real time and the connectedness of all these platforms and stuff.
Julie: Now, we’re turning our focus to empowering the loyalty marketer to be able to change and evolve their program as they need to and get it into market as quickly as possible, but also continuing to focus on letting them create experiences for their consumers that are delightful, personalized and relevant to where they are in their journey with the brand, right?
Julie: So that’s kind of our vision.
Julie: How to do this to empower that loyalty marketer and bring the right data to them at the right point in time is some of our roadmap items, right?
Julie: So collecting that data and not doing just KPI metrics, but also giving insights about those metrics, trends that you’re seeing, which part of the customer base do we need to focus on and the member base and what promotions or offers in the past have worked and now start to give relevant suggestions to that loyalty marketer about what to do next and make that all available in our platform in real time and easy access.
Julie: So using machine intelligence to help bring that together in a real time perspective in our application is one of our main focuses in the next six to 12 months.
Julie: And then again, using some of the machine intelligence as well around that one-to-one marketing is another big part of the vision that we’re talking about.
Julie: So if you have a ton of offers or that you wanna put into market, how do I talk to Paula differently than I talk to Tamara based on where they are with their brand and what they like and grabbing all of that data to sort through it and personalize?
Julie: That’s kind of our next challenge that we’re taking on.
Paula: Yeah, and again, I mean, even within the industry, it’s one thing to collect all of the data and have it available, but to make it accessible in a way that I, for example, as a non-techie, as very much somebody who, really wants like a very simple set of recommendations.
Paula: I think that must be a huge challenge.
Paula: I mean, literally to bring it into a way that’s actionable because as we all know, you can get buried in data and swamped with insights, but one big thing.
Paula: And again, I suppose it’s what I always love in terms of talking to partners.
Paula: It’s like, well, what have we seen in one industry?
Paula: So you’ll probably see what’s happening in a client like Dell, which we’ve done the interview on and see how that might be appropriate to other clients who are looking to evolve.
Paula: So I think that cross industry expertise gives you a unique perspective.
Paula: And again, I always say everyone should talk to their partners, their technology partners, to say what is happening outside of our industry and take that, I suppose, head above the fence and see what’s going on in the big bad world, huh?
Julie: The working with the multiple verticals and the clients across that, like you said, you can bring those experiences and get different ideas to the other side of the different verticals.
Julie: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And it’s why I always liked consulting, actually.
Paula: It’s exactly the same thing, you know?
Paula: So, you know, I started in the telco sector and then moved into energy and banking.
Paula: And at the end of the day, they were all massive databases of human beings who didn’t want to be on a database.
Paula: They just wanted to be connected.
Paula: So, and Tamara, from your side then, I know you’re a big fan of driving emotional loyalty.
Paula: So, tell us what you’re seeing coming through in that side of things.
Tamara: Yeah, so there’s a lot of innovation in that area, specifically around, so since we’re talking about data, I think one of the big challenges that marketers have or loyalty marketers have is around understanding what kind of data can help indicate and inform what an emotion happens to be.
Tamara: So, there are some projects that we’re working on internally here to get a better and much more scientific approach to that that’s all data driven.
Tamara: So, it comes down to data attribution to an actual emotion within a moment about a brand.
Tamara: And then what does that mean?
Tamara: How does that impact share of dollar?
Tamara: How does that impact share of heart, share of time?
Tamara: How much time you’re engaging with the brand?
Tamara: And to that point, how can you use that information to then inform your future offers, messages, whatever it is to drive the incremental behavior you’re trying to drive?
Tamara: So, there is a lot of work currently being done at Epsilon around this.
Tamara: And I would expect to maybe see more about that.
Paula: Yeah, coming soon.
Tamara: Coming soon.
Tamara: A lot of exciting things happening right now.
Paula: But do you know what I love, Tamara?
Paula: When you talk about share of heart, it’s something I’m very passionately agree with you on.
Paula: And I believe that we should be having those type of conversations.
Paula: And I’m wondering, in your experience, are most brands ready to have that conversation?
Paula: Because it’s actually, and I’m sure every market around the world is different.
Paula: I mean, again, a lot of people listening to this show are in the US, but a lot are not.
Paula: I’m wondering, for example, how much of share of heart is being discussed, maybe in the UK or here in the Middle East, for example?
Paula: What’s your sense on the readiness of senior people to talk about something that may feel a little softer than those hard metrics of loyalty we’re used to in the past?
Tamara: Yeah, that’s a great question.
Tamara: And I think, honestly, I think it does vary, and it varies based on the brand.
Tamara: And especially, when you hit the nail on the head, it’s like, how do you quantify that and measure that and show some sort of return on an increase share of heart?
Tamara: So some of the work that we’re doing right now is to build out what that return could be or would be.
Tamara: So hopefully we’ll have some analytics to help nudge that conversation along.
Tamara: That we could share.
Tamara: But it really comes down to, at the end of the day, as a brand, what are you trying to achieve?
Tamara: What’s important?
Tamara: What are the goals of loyalty for your organization?
Tamara: And while we’re always going to say, at the end of the day, I mean, I think, when you’re talking about big L loyalty, share of heart is extremely important.
Tamara: You know, I mean, you want brand love, you want that’s what leads to a lot of, you know, other things, retention, long time with time value, you know, all of that advocacy.
Tamara: But at the end of the day, it comes down to what is the goal of the program or the initiative that you’re trying to drive from an executive standpoint.
Tamara: And sometimes brand love is it, and sometimes it’s something else.
Tamara: But I would say there is definitely much more interest in it.
Tamara: There’s a lot of companies out there talking about it, but I don’t think anyone’s quite cracked the code just yet.
Paula: Totally, totally.
Paula: And it may be, you know, and it’s ironic, I suppose, but given the current challenges, for example, you know, like a pandemic does force a rethink.
Paula: And it may be that we now have permission as marketeers to be braver and say, actually, you know what, I want to stand for something differently, or I want to, you know, really show up for my customers now in a bigger and better way.
Paula: So yeah, it almost is a defining time, I think, as we know, the behavior is changing dramatically, but it also is a unique window of opportunity to say, this is how we want to, you know, to manage our business and to be loyal to our customers.
Paula: Because that’s what I think, you know, is the opportunity.
Paula: We’ve all talked about how do we get our customers to be loyal to us, but it sounds like you’re helping people think the other way around as well.
Tamara: Yeah, and I think what’s exciting right now, too, is that, especially for Epsilon, because, you know, we were recently acquired by Pulpices.
Tamara: And this whole emotional loyalty question from a strategic standpoint is exciting to me because we now have, can bring together the art and the science of it all.
Paula: Wow.
Tamara: And really come up and crack the code because I think the answer is a mixture somewhere in between in using the art and science of it all.
Tamara: And I think that, you know, in the conversations we’re having internally and exploring in some of the initiatives we’re working on, I’m feeling that we’re closer to understanding it than we have in the past because of that.
Tamara: So it’s been a great mix.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: And it’s actually very reassuring because again, I’m the one that’s usually kind of going, I have no idea how we’re gonna make this transition into emotional loyalty, for example, because there is no easy answer.
Paula: So yes, I will be certainly watching with interest.
Paula: The next thing I wanted to talk to you both about really was, I suppose you mentioned already about, companies that want to evolve their programs.
Paula: And that’s actually something that’s certainly happening here in the Middle East.
Paula: We have some extraordinary loyalty programs.
Paula: And again, they’re working on their emotional loyalty propositions and evolving forward.
Paula: But what should they be doing in terms of that complex procedure?
Paula: It’s one thing to say, yeah, we want to continually improve our performance against KPIs.
Paula: But if you actually want to evolve a program rather than starting from scratch, how do you recommend they go about that?
Tamara: Well, I think you always have to start with the consumer, right?
Tamara: And you start with the consumer and really understand the consumer.
Tamara: Sometimes from an exercise standpoint, this could be done through like a customer journey map of some sort, or really understanding.
Tamara: And also customer research and understanding, looking at, survey them, talk to them, focus groups.
Tamara: But also if you happen to have data or access to data to help inform, you know, some of that.
Tamara: So it really starts with the consumer and understanding where you’re at.
Tamara: It’s sort of like, I was kind of like, I’m planning a journey, right?
Tamara: I know I want to go on a trip, but I don’t know necessarily where.
Tamara: You just have to first figure out where you are right now, right?
Tamara: And then figure out where you want to be and then plan the journey to get there, right?
Tamara: So understanding where you are now is really, really critical to getting to the next place.
Tamara: So that’s probably the first step, just and lean in and let the consumers inform you because I will guarantee every time we go through this exercise and understanding, like taking a deep dive into the consumer, there’s always some surprises.
Tamara: Really?
Tamara: That the brand doesn’t know.
Tamara: Yeah, there’s always something that comes up that you’re like, oh, I didn’t realize that that was, you know, and then that helps shift what the journey might be and how to get to where you need to go.
Paula: Okay, so I like that look for surprises in your data, huh?
Tamara: There’s always going to be surprises.
Paula: And again, I suppose it’s a brave company that goes looking for those surprises because sometimes it’s easier just, you know, continue as is, you know.
Tamara: Yeah, absolutely.
Tamara: And that’s a good point because sometimes like, there might be things in the data you don’t want to see or, you know, but you have to know what it is and what you’re up against and what your consumer is.
Tamara: Because at the end of the day, having loyalty is about, you know, instilling loyalty is about instilling loyalty with their consumer and you have to understand, it’s just like any other relationship.
Tamara: I know we’ve said that a million times as loyalty marketers, but you have to understand who it is that you’re trying to connect with.
Tamara: And the better you can understand, the better you can connect.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Love it.
Paula: And Julie, from your side, you know, what do you see in terms of programs that do want to evolve from a technology perspective?
Julie: From the technology side, we probably focus more on just being ready to go where they need to go, right?
Julie: So when they’ve decided, they’ve looked at where they are and they’ve worked with Tamara and they understand where they want to go, right, having the right levers and the right consultation to work with them, to bring those experiences to life, to enable them to take that next step, introduce that new aspect of the program, whether it’s now Surprise and Delight, or whether it’s a new gamification feature, or whatever it is, just being ready to equip them and arm them to enable the experience that they want to put in place.
Julie: And that’s what we’ve been able to prepare our application to do or our technology to do, is help them connect those dots with their systems and go to market with whatever those experiences are going to be.
Paula: And I really have to ask you the question, Julie, I alluded to at the start, I told you I worked for a technology start point and every time I would go and meet a client, they would tell me they needed a new feature.
Paula: And I’m sure you guys have this constantly.
Paula: How does that process work?
Paula: Like if I was a client for a brand, and I’m pretty sure Epsilon does everything I would need it to do, but just let’s say I did have a big idea, like how do you manage it, first of all, in terms of sometimes saying no, I guess, there’s plenty of times you might have to say, we can’t do that right now.
Paula: But how does that technology planning process work?
Julie: Well, we listen and we pay attention to what’s coming in.
Julie: And we start to draw parallels between common themes or new ideas.
Julie: We try to get ahead of it.
Julie: Configuration and extension is huge, right?
Julie: We’ve kind of gotten skilled at being able to put slight extensions into certain parts of the application where needed so that brands can be customer specific in that one area and still use the core platform.
Julie: Same way with the platform itself.
Julie: There’s a lot of levers and a lot of configurations that you can mix and match together to bring that, to have one technology platform go in and service multiple, multiple, multiple ideas.
Julie: So we’ve gotten a little bit crafty there to be able to do that.
Julie: Yeah, of course.
Julie: Because you want to say yes.
Paula: I was going to say you have to provide a solution and that’s the right approach.
Paula: Yes, yeah.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And actually, yeah, I mean, Mitch Kennedy was brilliant.
Paula: I know you guys power the Dell Loyalty program and he was like, you know what, anything I’ve ever asked for has always been available.
Paula: Yes, there might be a cost associated with it, but it is very much like that partnership approach of how do we get to what we’re ultimately trying to achieve on both sides.
Paula: So, yeah, that’s pretty cool.
Paula: Awesome.
Paula: So, yeah, I wanted to talk a bit about then just coming just towards the end, I suppose, of the show, just about future proofing.
Paula: And what do you think that clients should be doing to think about future proofing their loyalty programs?
Paula: Like, how should they be thinking ahead, do you think?
Paula: Maybe, Tamara, you might come in, I suppose, again, with the journey mapping approach that you’re recommending.
Tamara: Sure, so, well, journey mapping, for sure, but I would say, any sort of, we’re having these conversations with current clients right now, so any sort of journey mapping you may have done up until maybe six months ago, or data analysis, it’s pretty much out the window right now.
Tamara: So, you need to redo it all right now, so I wouldn’t lean too much in on that.
Tamara: So, in terms of future proofing, kind of going back to, we need to understand and level set where are we right now, and really understanding to help guide that.
Tamara: But in terms of future proofing strategies, first and foremost, you have to understand that your strategies are gonna have to continuously evolve because consumers continuously change.
Tamara: Data is continuously getting more data that you can have access to, to help inform your decisions and be smarter.
Tamara: And then the journey mapping, like you had said, really understanding the whole experience of where consumer happens to be, where’s those moments that matter, really fine tuning that, but it shouldn’t necessarily be a documents when and done, it should be a living and breathing document that’s constantly changing and evolving and you’re constantly looking at how can you prove experience.
Tamara: So really being, in terms of future proving from a strategic standpoint, it’s about always being proactive and always, you know, informing and leaning in on where those certain areas that you can improve and make things better.
Tamara: It’s really about being proactive.
Tamara: And I think to that point, that can help you isolate where those types of features that you should maybe add down the road and or which ones you shouldn’t, just because the shiny object doesn’t necessarily mean you should have it, right?
Tamara: And having those types of conversations and understanding and honing to, and then letting that help guide what the technology solution should be.
Paula: Yeah, and I know what I’ve also found to be quite useful actually is to bring in maybe other departments that aren’t maybe traditionally or let’s say day to day involved with the running of the loyalty program.
Paula: So do you tend to find that your clients would be good at that?
Paula: Or do they need, you know, maybe to be reminded to do that from time to time?
Tamara: Yes, I think, I mean, there’s, I mean, especially if you’re having a loyalty program, depending upon the kind of program, I mean, there’s so many departments that are involved in this, right?
Tamara: So that touch it in some way, shape or form.
Tamara: And I always recommend that, especially if you’re going through these types of exercises, you know, consumer journey mapping, bring in other groups because it really helps, one, from an ownership standpoint, these other teams that you’re gonna need to be involved and have, you know, a stake in the game to help for the success of your initiative, you know, get them involved in the journey mapping process, get them involved in the ideation sessions because they’ll have that sense of ownership of something when it comes to life.
Tamara: And it really helps with alignment, you know, overcoming any internal obstacles you might have with, you know, silos and all that because when you have large organizations, it’s everywhere.
Tamara: It’s not just at one, it’s at everywhere, you know.
Tamara: So having that internal alignment out the gate helps internally and it also helps sell in the executives too.
Tamara: So if you can get the whole team aligned, it’s easier to get the executives aligned and makes it much less painful internally as a client or as a brand.
Paula: Yeah, yeah.
Paula: And again, yes, I remember exactly and my own experience was exactly the same, you know.
Paula: So let’s preempt any concerns that the leadership team may have by ensuring all of their people have had the opportunity to contribute and challenge and all of that.
Paula: So it is a very good approach because then everyone goes, okay, right.
Paula: You’ve taken my requirements and my objectives into the overall schema thing.
Paula: So yeah, that’s awesome.
Paula: So that’s brilliant.
Paula: The last real question I wanted to ask you both, I suppose, was much more around what do you recommend in terms of helping, again, listeners to this show to stay up to date.
Paula: So what kind of resources do you like?
Paula: Do you read?
Paula: Do you consume?
Paula: Please, totally fill us in on what you recommend in terms of media resources.
Julie: Honestly, a lot of the things that I focus on from learning loyalty, to be honest, is through the clients, right?
Julie: And so as I fold that into the application and the technology, you know, I learn a lot from our clients and what they want to do and the challenges they have with operationalizing a program.
Julie: And that helps me focus on how to streamline the application and help them do that.
Julie: So from a technology perspective, I get a lot of input from our clients and our experiences and the different challenges that they have in helping solve those problems.
Julie: I also listen to your loyalty podcast and learning those different experiences.
Julie: And a couple of business growth podcasts like the Masters of Scale, again, also listening to those challenges and how they’ve solved those problems to help stay up to date, right?
Julie: And kind of help evolve our applications.
Julie: So those are a couple of things I’ve done.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Well, I’m glad you’re a podcast listener.
Paula: Clearly, selfishly, I’m happy you listened to mine, but yeah, no, I haven’t listened to Masters of Scale.
Paula: So that’s definitely one I will tune into.
Paula: And it’s funny.
Paula: I was talking to somebody actually just recently because I think podcasts probably had initially a bit of a dip when COVID came in and people stopped commuting because that was, I suppose, the time of day.
Paula: A lot of people were consuming this type of content that I’m putting out and that we’re putting out.
Paula: But actually, I think those people have found new times to listen because they realize that they value the content.
Paula: But I do believe there’s a whole new audience as well.
Paula: And I’m sure there’s loads of Epsilon clients who will be listening to this type of content.
Paula: So there are a whole new range of people who are loving the audio format.
Paula: So I think it’s cool that you’re in the early adopter group, Julie.
Paula: That’s brilliant.
Julie: I am, thanks.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: And Tamara, where do you go to to stay up to date from your side?
Tamara: So I second Let’s Talk Loyalty podcast.
Tamara: Yeah, so there you have it.
Tamara: Absolutely.
Tamara: I second that.
Tamara: I mean, where I like it is it helps in terms of understanding what other loyalty practitioners are seeing, right?
Tamara: And having those conversations, especially in this, where pre-COVID we’d have conferences that we might go to with the Loyalty Academy, some of them are with the Loyalty Academy, CLMP.
Tamara: Yes, yes.
Tamara: I get your certification, with the wise marketer.
Tamara: And so, I mean, that’s a great resource in helping really help pushing the loyalty practitioners thinking.
Tamara: And it’s across different industries and there’s competitors in the room and we’re all talking together and really kind of pushing our thinking and pushing the industry, which I think is really exciting.
Tamara: On top of that, of course, talking to our clients and what are they experiencing day to day?
Tamara: Looking at the data, but what is the data telling us in terms of what consumers are seeing and saying?
Tamara: And on top of that, I’ve always been a bit of a geek for any kind of like futuristic consumer trend kind of stuff.
Tamara: So there’s a few, there’s a few different like trend spotters, trend hunters.
Tamara: There’s a couple of really cool trending kind of a, Foresight Factory was another great one that really kind of pones in on interesting trends around the globe.
Tamara: So it’s not just the US, but there’s always really cool inspiration that I might see like in one market, say South Africa, that you could apply in Canada or something like that.
Tamara: So there’s always really great insights and trends around the world that I would, just to kind of, keep the creative juices going, helping inspire more loyalty and keeping Julie really busy.
Julie: You are very good at that.
Paula: Oh, I can only imagine the rivalry in the office.
Paula: Oh, it must be hilarious.
Paula: Genuinely, I know you create a lot of content as well.
Paula: So what I’ll do is I’ll make sure that we link to the Epsilon’s website, obviously both for Europe and also for the US, because you guys are putting out some extraordinary stuff yourselves.
Paula: So I do want to make sure that anybody who wants to stay up to date has access to the Epsilon content as well.
Paula: So we’ll make sure to include that in the show notes.
Paula: So I think that’s all the questions I had ladies from my side.
Paula: Is there anything else that you wanted to contribute or comment on before we wrap up?
Julie: I don’t, but thank you for having us.
Julie: It’s been great talking with you this morning.
Julie: Good way to start the week.
Paula: Great, Julie.
Paula: Thank you.
Paula: Tamara, anything from your side?
Tamara: Yep, same.
Tamara: Thank you for your time.
Tamara: This has been a lot of fun and congratulations on the success of the podcast with number 59.
Tamara: This is number 59.
Paula: Exactly, exactly.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yes, yeah.
Paula: I think I signed up for in my own head to do four.
Paula: And between the jigs and the reels, I mean, my goodness, yeah, it’s been an extraordinary roller coaster and genuinely, you know how much I value the Epsilon partnership.
Paula: So definitely want to acknowledge that.
Paula: So from my side, Julie Smith and Tamara Oliverio, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: This show is sponsored by The Wise Marketeer, the world’s most popular source of loyalty marketing news, insights and research.
Paula: The Wise Marketeer also offers loyalty marketing training through its Loyalty Academy, which has already certified over 170 executives in 20 countries as certified loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: For more information, check out thewisemarketeer.com and loyaltyacademy.org.
Paula: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
Paula: If you’d like me to send you the latest show each week, simply sign up for the show newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com and I’ll send you the latest episode to your inbox every Thursday.
Paula: Or just head to your favorite podcast platform.
Paula: Find Let’s Talk Loyalty and subscribe.
Paula: Of course, I’d love your feedback and reviews and thanks again for supporting the show.
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