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Paula: From immersive loyalty programmes to captivating marketing campaigns, Comarch helps you deliver personalised experiences across every touchpoint.
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Paula: To learn more, visit comarch.com.
Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.
Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.
Paula: If you work in loyalty marketing, join us every week to hear the latest ideas and insights for loyalty marketing specialists around the world.
Paula: Hello and welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Paula: 2025 has started off for so many loyalty professionals with plenty of excitement and ambition.
Paula: It’s also the time of year that leading industry brands share their incredible insights and research as a way to support our industry.
Paula: So, I’m delighted today to be joined by our most loyal sponsor.
Paula: And partner of the show to do exactly that.
Paula: Comarch is a leading global IT company founded in Poland in 1993.
Paula: The company now employs over 6,000 IT engineers, business consultants and marketing specialists.
Paula: Powering the technology needs of more than 40,000 companies worldwide.
Paula: From my perspective, Comarch is one of the most dedicated software companies in the world when it comes to its focus on loyalty marketing software.
Paula: As part of that focus, I’m thrilled today to be helping them launch their Customer Loyalty Predictions 2025 report, focused on AI, privacy and sustainability, which was conducted by Comarch in partnership with the Global Loyalty Organisation.
Paula: Joining me in the studio today to share insights from this global study are Łukasz Dubiel and Joanna Witsch from Comarch.
Paula: I hope you enjoy their insights on these key loyalty topics which are so relevant for 2025 and beyond.
Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Paula: I am thrilled to have you both here.
Joanna: Thank you very much for the invitation, Paula.
Joanna: I’m really happy to be here, especially with Łukasz and have our discussions today.
Łukasz: Yes, really excited to have this program with you and to talk about the loyalty.
Paula: Indeed, and thank you for flying in, Łukasz.
Paula: I am thrilled.
Paula: Honestly, we as a team, we love to do in-person recordings as much as possible.
Paula: It’s much easier, and it always feels like a gathering of friends, just getting together and having a nice chat, especially about incredible research, this report you’ve just published.
Paula: So we have a lot to talk about today.
Paula: But as you know, we always start this show with one question that we ask just to get some insights now, particularly this year, on you as human beings.
Paula: So beyond your loyalty career, which we’re going to talk about, this year we’re asking all of our guests about their favourite book.
Paula: Now, Jo, you have been on the show before, so I’m going to come to you.
Paula: You’ve already told us before your favourite loyalty program.
Paula: But let’s kick off and tell us about a book that really made a big difference in your professional life.
Joanna: Yeah, so that’s the book I read a couple of years ago.
Joanna: And it has nothing to do with loyalty that we are going to talk about.
Joanna: The title of the book is The Heartlet Leader.
Joanna: And that’s the book which is absolutely close to my heart, because that’s the type of leadership I’m really truly believing in.
Joanna: And when having my own team or working with others, I’m always trying to lead with my heart.
Joanna: So it’s really about your emotional intelligence.
Joanna: It’s really, I can recommend to all of you who go into the leadership, who really grow yourself, develop yourself as leaders.
Joanna: This is really truly something worth reading.
Joanna: The examples of others, how it’s important to be a good person and to have the heart on the right side, which is your left side, but the right side.
Paula: Totally, totally.
Paula: Thank you.
Paula: So Heartlet Loyalty.
Joanna: Heartlet Leaders.
Paula: Heartlet Leaders.
Paula: Love it.
Paula: Okay, perfect.
Paula: So of course, we linked that in the show notes as well, Jo.
Paula: So I’m personally going to go and check it out as well.
Paula: So it’s a great principle and exactly why I asked this question, because I want to know, again, what do we really admire and feel like as human beings?
Paula: Łukasz, you have an amazing answer I know for this question, and I can’t believe it’s a book about loyalty that I didn’t know about.
Łukasz: Exactly, exactly.
Łukasz: It’s a really fascinated book from my perspective.
Łukasz: It’s quite old, I would say, from 2000 years.
Łukasz: So the book I selected is loyalty.com, author of the Frederick Newell.
Łukasz: The book is telling about the loyalty, how we should focus on the customer, not only from the promotion, from the system perspective, but also how we should care about the customer before transacting and after transacting.
Łukasz: So this is a really holistic, nice view on the customer, how to manage the loyalty from that perspective.
Paula: Okay, perfect.
Paula: So loyalty.com, I mean, even the title means, I feel like I should have read it, so way back more than 20 years ago.
Paula: So again, we’re linked to it in the show notes.
Paula: Thank you for enlightening us about this amazing loyalty book.
Paula: I feel like it’s long overdue that I haven’t asked this question.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: So we’re already learning.
Paula: Tell us a bit about you then, Łukasz.
Paula: Again, you’ve flown in from Poland and I’ve been to your headquarters in Krakow, which have to say anybody who hasn’t been to Krakow, it’s absolutely incredible.
Paula: I’m sure you guys would love to meet everybody there.
Paula: But really have had an incredible loyalty career and a brilliant example of, I suppose, being on the client side.
Paula: So tell us where you’ve come from, because I know you’re quite new in Ticklemark.
Łukasz: Yes, I have, I’ll say, 13 years of experience in loyalty.
Łukasz: We’re 11 years at BP.
Łukasz: So I was for a number of years a CRM specialist, and the last three years, I was a loyalty manager at BP in Poland.
Łukasz: I also support some international projects when we are talking about the loyalty.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, I would say I had quite a big experience so I can support.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yes, of course.
Paula: And you were using the Comarch platform.
Łukasz: Definitely, yes.
Paula: Yes, indeed.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, I know the system quite well.
Paula: You’ve got the user expertise, which again, I never have actually someday.
Paula: I must actually sit down and use your platform properly together with you.
Paula: But I know the incredible clients that you’ve got.
Paula: And the BP one, actually, Łukasz, we must get them back on the show.
Paula: I think it was maybe three years ago when we did do an interview with somebody in BP.
Paula: What I really loved actually about what you guys achieved with that, like just as a business, I know you had them as a client.
Paula: I think it was Poland originally as a single market.
Paula: And then they wanted to roll out the loyalty globally.
Paula: And they asked you to open up offices in all of their global markets to support them.
Paula: So huge congratulations, great expertise.
Paula: Welcome in to Comarch.
Paula: I feel like I’m part of the family now.
Paula: So you are totally, totally.
Paula: And Jo, you’ve been on the show before.
Paula: So some people might know you from your brand experience, but you’ve been in Comarch.
Paula: You’ve left and you’ve come back again.
Paula: So just give us a quick intro to you.
Joanna: Yes.
Joanna: So I rejoined Comarch in November.
Joanna: I’m coming with around 16 years of experience in loyalty.
Joanna: Starting at BP in Poland.
Joanna: So the interesting story is that Łukasz actually is my successor.
Joanna: So when I decided to leave BP and join Comarch in the UK, this is when Łukasz stepped in and took over my position.
Joanna: So after 12 years, here we are again, me rejoining Comarch back in November, Łukasz joining Comarch back in November.
Joanna: So yes, our paths crossed again, thanks to loyalty.
Joanna: There you go.
Joanna: So that’s amazing.
Joanna: Yeah, so 16 years of international experience starting at BP as mentioned, then I joined Comarch working with Heathrow Airport for the Heathrow Rewards Program, and then being consultant literally around the world, including the biggest private group in Vietnam, for example.
Paula: Wow.
Joanna: And then yes, when moving over to here, to the region, seven and a half years ago, I worked for Shaloub Group for three years, and then I joined Alshaya, and this is then as a head of product and operations in the Loyalty.
Joanna: We were discussing about what amazing things we managed to achieve and what the big plans we had.
Joanna: But yes, now it’s my successor who is in charge of delivering all the plans Nuda and I created last year.
Paula: So here I am.
Paula: Super, super.
Paula: Here you are.
Paula: I do remember having that conversation.
Paula: You were leaving the brand side.
Paula: You didn’t tell us where you were going.
Paula: So it’s been wonderful to have you back again in the family.
Paula: So just for people who might not know Comarch, I mean, obviously you guys have been working with us for so long.
Paula: So we talk about it a lot as a platform and what you do.
Paula: But Jo, you’ve been there, as you said, you’ve just rejoined.
Paula: So would you just give us the high level global perspective?
Paula: If anybody’s out there using other platforms and just want to get a sense of what does Comarch do really well?
Paula: What kind of sectors you focus on?
Paula: Because I think that just sets the context for the research that I know we’re going to get into talking about.
Joanna: Absolutely.
Joanna: Yeah.
Joanna: Comarch is an international IT company.
Joanna: We are based in Krakow.
Joanna: The company has been created over 30 years ago now, but where we are really strong and where it all started, it was, yes, loyalty.
Joanna: It was invoicing, telco system management as well.
Joanna: By now, the banking is very strong.
Joanna: So I would say these are the four main sectors where Comarch is really an expert in, right?
Joanna: So Comarch is hiring six and a half thousand experts around the world.
Joanna: We are on the sixth continent, which is really, really interesting.
Joanna: So we are a huge company by now.
Paula: Totally.
Joanna: But loyalty is definitely, yes, one of the biggest, but definitely not the main part of what Comarch is delivering across the globe.
Paula: And even your role in Poland, again, I had no idea.
Paula: I know I met Łukasz in Paris, first of all, actually, at a Comarch event a couple of years ago.
Paula: Then I came to Krakow.
Paula: And I remember that opening.
Paula: I’ll never forget that moment.
Paula: The former president of Poland, who wrote your constitution, was doing the opening speech.
Paula: And I’m like, oh, my God, these guys are serious.
Joanna: So there you go.
Joanna: The professor, of course, was very well connected.
Joanna: Of course.
Joanna: Well-known businessman in Poland.
Paula: Inspiring founder.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: Yes, indeed.
Paula: We remember him well.
Paula: Indeed.
Paula: So, Łukasz, we’re here to talk about this incredible research, which you guys have just released.
Paula: A global loyalty research study, focusing on consumers, I guess, for the first time.
Paula: I know you’ve done B2B research, plenty in the past.
Paula: But given that we’re getting into 2025, we’re all keen to hear what are the future trends on loyalty.
Paula: So, would you just mind introducing this report for our audience again?
Paula: It’ll be the first time they’re hearing about the 2025 edition.
Paula: So, tell us what you guys have created.
Łukasz: Okay, so Comarch, together with Global Loyalty Organisation, prepared this report.
Łukasz: We asked thousands of customers, almost 20 countries, to figure out what will lead the loyalty next year.
Łukasz: Actually, this year, yeah?
Łukasz: So, what are the main trends in terms of the loyalty?
Łukasz: So, according to our customers, we should focus, we as experts of the loyalty, we should focus on the AI, so artificial intelligence, hyper personalisation and sustainability.
Łukasz: So, those are three main trends the consumers target as a key for this year.
Paula: Indeed.
Paula: And I guess nobody will be surprised to hear any of those.
Paula: I think we’ve been talking about AI.
Paula: We obviously did an episode with you guys on AI, but I think it’s moving into a new phase, at least from my perspective, from something that was a bit scary, to be honest, last year, to now going, okay, let’s actually use it.
Paula: Let’s test it, even if it’s something simple.
Paula: Like for us, it’s ChatGPD.
Paula: So, I really think loyalty professionals, we’ve been talking about it, and now it’s into execution mode.
Paula: And I know you guys are really coaching and guiding people in terms of what AI functionality you have, of course.
Paula: But then what can we do?
Paula: What’s the benefit for us as very busy people?
Paula: I think that’s something that unites us all.
Paula: So, three key topics.
Paula: So, AI, personalisation, which I know there’s a big overlap on privacy, of course, two are really interchangeable.
Paula: And sustainability, then, is one that, again, is not surprising.
Paula: We’ve been talking about it for a long time, but it’s not going away.
Paula: So, we really need to get behind all of these.
Paula: From my perspective, there was a couple of things that I really loved.
Paula: First of all, the fact that it is so future-focused.
Paula: So, that for me is something where, again, everybody’s probably done their plans for 2025 last year, but now it’s a case of optimising, executing and already thinking again for the future.
Paula: So, loads of ideas in here.
Paula: Łukasz, from your perspective, with this AI piece, again, it’s not new, but what did you like about what the consumers were saying?
Paula: Because again, that’s quite different from necessarily a loyalty professional’s perspective.
Paula: So, what are consumers saying about this?
Łukasz: So, from the consumer perspective, what they really expect is to more, let’s say, sophisticated and really target offer.
Łukasz: Not the general offer that I have something to buy and to get from the company, but really personalised offer, which are dedicated to my behaviour.
Łukasz: So, what I can do here, so can analyse the transactions, how I transact, what I buy, when I buy, but also what we as a company can do, we can collect declaration data.
Łukasz: So, I declare that I want to buy something or I will behave in this way or that way.
Łukasz: So, what I can do is to speed up a data analysis.
Łukasz: Because currently, companies usually use a number of people to analyse the data, to analyse the insights and based on the nutrition interface, they prepare offers, they prepare communication.
Łukasz: So what artificial intelligence can help here is to merge and link the number of data sources, analyse those data really fast and propose some solutions, some offers.
Łukasz: Because what we need to remember that I hope so, I will never decide which offer should be targeted to the particular customer.
Łukasz: Because at the end, we’re going to need a human, which will decide if this offer is relevant for the customers or not.
Łukasz: What is also really important, because currently when we build treatment groups, we can have, I don’t know, 100, 200 groups with the different offers, which are fit to the customer’s behaviour, different customer’s behaviour.
Łukasz: But having AI, we can prepare a thousand groups.
Łukasz: So the offers will be much more relevant to the customer behaviour.
Łukasz: And from that perspective, company will achieve higher ROI, so return of investments.
Łukasz: So that’s the future.
Paula: It totally is, yeah.
Paula: Micro-segmentation, absolutely.
Łukasz: Definitely.
Łukasz: Micro-segmentation on the really, really low level, where at the bottom of this level is a single customer.
Łukasz: Not a group, but a single customer.
Paula: Exactly, one-to-one, yeah.
Paula: And I was thinking to your BP, actually, experience as well, Łukasz, because I think we all, as consumers, kind of see them as a fuel company.
Paula: But in fact, behind the scenes, it’s a totally different agenda.
Paula: So they have a very big job to do, which I think hyper-personalisation can really support.
Łukasz: Definitely, yes, because we need to remember that each customer behaves in a completely different way.
Łukasz: So we can describe the customers with a hundred factors.
Łukasz: So having, let’s say, nutrition, analytical engine, companies need the time, I don’t know, to prepare 200 target groups with the different offers.
Łukasz: But the technology will definitely change it.
Łukasz: So that’s going to be a huge game changer.
Łukasz: So, yes, in BP, we did, I did, a number of campaigns where we had a hundred groups of customers.
Łukasz: But the future, we are talking about the thousand of groups.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: And of course, your objective in that context is you have the footfall, people coming to fuel the car, but you have a separate objective to get them to walk into the store.
Łukasz: Definitely, yes.
Łukasz: Definitely, in the era where customers use more and more apps on the smartphones.
Łukasz: And there is a pay at the pump solution available on the market.
Łukasz: So having a proper office in the application and convince the customer to step into the store, it’s becoming very, very important.
Paula: Oh, God, super exciting, huh?
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Big changes in the fuel retail industry.
Łukasz: Definitely, yes.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And Jo, from your perspective, then, with these specific topics, then, AI, again, I think you did execute some campaigns the last time and this hyper personalisation.
Paula: What would you say is the status as we are here in 2025, still early, still in January, as we record.
Paula: But what’s your expertise, I suppose, in terms of what are clients doing with it?
Paula: Were you surprised what you saw in the report about AI specifically?
Joanna: If I was surprised, I think, positively surprised to see that UAE customers, specifically, as well as Saudi, they really look for the highly personalised communication and the office adjusted to them, right?
Joanna: It was on a much high level.
Joanna: It was around 77% of the customers here in the UAE who said, yes, I want to see that.
Joanna: And I think it’s really coming from, you know, the number of loyalty programs being here around, with number of communications you and I are receiving on databases, being absolutely bombarded.
Joanna: And guess what?
Joanna: It’s just trash, trash, trash, trash, right?
Joanna: It’s just such a small proportion of that communication, which is relevant, right?
Joanna: So I think it’s so important really to utilise the data.
Joanna: There is also a trick, right?
Joanna: Also in what Łukasz just said, that AI is definitely helping, but AI will help only if it gets enough information, right?
Joanna: If I only, you know, if I’m talking about the brand, which I am visiting maybe once or twice a year, how much more can this AI actually help in that, right?
Joanna: You know, so it’s just so important that, you know, for AI to work and bring you actually the relevant models and design you the relevant office, relevant communication, it’s just, you know, a huge number of information that has to flow into that, right?
Joanna: So I think that that’s also something very important.
Joanna: And we as loyalty practitioners, we have to remember about, yeah?
Joanna: It will not come from nowhere, right?
Joanna: So the data collection topic in all kinds of ways, not only via transactions, right?
Joanna: But with everything we do, it’s so, so important in here.
Paula: Indeed.
Joanna: Yeah.
Joanna: And of course at Alshayah, we did already start the personalisation, perhaps not so much yet with the big use of AI, but we definitely started with the models, where the data team, the analysts were preparing, of course, with the help of AI, with more of a, perhaps it’s not yet called hyper-personalisation, but definitely on the lower level personalisation, more detailed, with hundreds of different groups.
Joanna: And you can definitely see that the more personalised the offer, the higher the income, right?
Joanna: Because the higher the response of the customer.
Joanna: So you can 100% say that yes, it’s all worth the effort, worth the investment, because then the return on it will be definitely much higher because the response from the customer is there.
Paula: Amazing.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And what I love about that actually as well is it gives the internal stakeholders, especially at the C-suite, that we all love.
Paula: The confidence that we’re using AI but guided by a human, which I think you referred to Łukasz as well.
Paula: So the last thing we want is something hallucinating or whatever, and coming up with big campaign ideas that don’t make commercial sense or consumer sense.
Paula: So I certainly noticed myself, you’re absolutely right.
Paula: This is a super competitive part of the world here in the GCC.
Paula: I’m sure you’ll see plenty of it Łukasz on your short trip here, but I think consumer expectations are so much higher.
Paula: We’re probably a little bit spoiled here, you know.
Joanna: We are, we definitely are.
Paula: We totally are.
Paula: And I feel like we’re still a less mature market.
Paula: And I guess that’s what also I really liked about this report is that there’s specific insights around different regions, different geographies, different demographics, so that we can get into different chapters, I suppose, as well.
Paula: At least so people can kind of go, well, what is happening for me in Europe or GCC or US?
Paula: So lots of those kind of things.
Paula: And just to pick up on the average number of programs, Jo, because I did like that.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: Were you surprised about any of that?
Paula: Because I always like to get a sense of…
Joanna: Kind of surprised indeed, because globally, I think we are talking at average 10 or 11 programs, right?
Joanna: That people are a part of, exactly.
Joanna: And specifically in Saudi, it was 13, I believe, and Brazil 14.
Joanna: So that’s an interesting topic for me, because I personally most likely…
Joanna: I may have so many apps, but I would not actively be a part of the loyalty program of so many.
Joanna: But I think it does not mean that people are getting…
Joanna: That they are engaged.
Joanna: That just means people have lots of choice, right?
Joanna: So simply, I mean, look at Brazil and Saudi.
Joanna: We are talking about huge countries, right?
Joanna: We have so many different companies.
Joanna: Brazil definitely even more advanced in terms of, I mean, more mature market, obviously, in terms of retail in general, but also loyalty programs.
Joanna: But Saudi, look at them.
Joanna: I mean, they managed to catch up so quickly.
Joanna: Same as UAE, right?
Joanna: So, of course, huge market with many opportunities.
Joanna: And for me, that means people just want to have a choice.
Joanna: It’s so much more difficult to build the actual loyalty of the customer to the brand or to the brands, which are part of that specific loyalty program.
Joanna: Because they look more into, okay, where is the better deal for me?
Joanna: Who is having the better offer today?
Joanna: I want to shop.
Joanna: Who has the better offer for me today?
Joanna: And this is what I will choose.
Joanna: And this is why I’m having those, you know, 13 or 14 apps in my digital wallet, right?
Joanna: For me to have that choice.
Joanna: And that’s exactly, you know, coming back to the topic of personalisation.
Joanna: And this is where personalisation will play the role, right?
Joanna: So who is the winner here, right?
Joanna: Out of those 13, perhaps three or four competing ones.
Joanna: So who is the winner here, right?
Joanna: On long term, not just one off.
Paula: Indeed.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: And I know you guys do this amazing loyalty personality quiz, which again, I did at your conference before.
Paula: And I was shocked myself when I answered, I remember the question about how many programmes do you have on your phone?
Paula: And I realised that I have deleted a lot of programmes.
Paula: So I probably only have three now, because I’m so judgemental.
Paula: Like it probably comes with the territory of being in the industry.
Paula: I’ll join, I’ll test, I’ll play the game.
Paula: To your point, Jo, and I absolutely think younger loyalty markets like Saudi, which again, for our audience listening in the US or UK, are probably surprised to hear that.
Paula: It’s a wealthy country.
Paula: It’s got its own perceptions, but actually it’s a massive opportunity.
Paula: So there are consumers there that are really kind of learning from what they’ve seen in other countries and applying it and demanding this personalisation.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: So, Łukasz, for you, based in Europe and again, reading through, it’s actually a pretty comprehensive, I think a hundred pages in total.
Paula: So loads of information, but again, categorised in different ways according to what people listening or watching, of course, on loyalty TV might want to learn.
Paula: So what would you say was something that maybe jumped out at you that you loved, that you maybe hadn’t thought about before as a loyalty professional that came in the report?
Łukasz: So regarding the report, what loyalty experts can find, it’s a lot of differences between the markets.
Łukasz: Like Joanna mentioned, there are differences when we are talking a bit about the Middle East.
Łukasz: But definitely regarding the Europe, where the market is much more mature, so the loyalty experts can compare the markets, can find some new areas which they can deliver or make the loyalty more attractive for the customers.
Łukasz: Because let’s say the loyalty in Europe is quite difficult because like we mentioned, the markets are much more mature.
Łukasz: So the customers can use a number of different loyalty programs.
Łukasz: So almost each loyalty program has their own loyalty mobile app, so you can install a number of it.
Łukasz: So customers can easily compare the offer, like Joanna said.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, the hyper-personalisation became more and more important.
Łukasz: So we as a loyalty expert need to guess almost what the offer should be dedicated to the customers, which offer will attract the customer to visit my store.
Łukasz: What moreover is important in Europe, we have GDPR regulation.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, we need to be very, very cautious when we are talking about the communication.
Łukasz: Because when we overload the customer, so send too many emails, so take too many text messages, the threat that customers will opt out from the loyalty program is higher and higher.
Łukasz: So we need to find the optimum balance between the communication, between the offer, to make sure that the customers will stay in contact with us, will visit our store and became more and more attractive.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, the loyalty in Europe is really, really competitive.
Łukasz: Regarding the US, the market is completely different.
Łukasz: They don’t have the GDPR regulation.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, I know, I know, like Middle East.
Paula: So we get away with murder here.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, the companies can do much more.
Łukasz: They compare the data between the companies.
Łukasz: They can play the data and use the AI to make more and more attractive.
Łukasz: It’s really scary to having that knowledge, what’s behind in the systems.
Łukasz: It’s really attractive.
Łukasz: It’s fascinating.
Paula: It totally is.
Paula: But I think consumers are pushing back, you know, I do feel like certainly if I sign up to an American brand, I very often unsubscribe two days later.
Joanna: Very quickly.
Paula: Because I’m like, really?
Paula: Do I need five emails?
Joanna: Exactly.
Joanna: I bombard it.
Joanna: Just bombard it.
Paula: Exactly.
Paula: I mean, there has to be a sweet spot.
Paula: I mean, we all know how effective email is, but there is a cost in terms of the customer’s attention.
Paula: And so again, I like that that comes through in the report in terms of, you know, it comes, but at a price, I’ll share my data, but I expect real value in return, not just excessive marketing.
Paula: And people will disengage from particularly mature loyalty programs, mature loyalty markets, if we’re not really thinking about them as individuals.
Łukasz: But also we need to remember, okay, we are the loyalty experts.
Łukasz: We are aware how the loyalty is working.
Łukasz: So we can easily opt out from the loyalty program when we see that there is too many communication.
Łukasz: But we need to remember that people are different.
Łukasz: So there are, let’s say, those promo hunters.
Joanna: Yeah, there are many.
Paula: A bit of that myself as well, I have to confess.
Łukasz: So they are ready to consume a lot of information from the companies, just to find a good offer to go there, transact.
Paula: It’s a good insight.
Paula: The promo hunter mentality, huh?
Joanna: My gosh.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: I remember the very first time I ever joined a loyalty program.
Paula: Actually, I was here in Dubai.
Paula: I joined Skywards.
Paula: I took the credit card.
Paula: I was actually working in Emirates, but I actually felt like a bit of a junkie because I could feel I was behaving.
Paula: I would only use that credit card.
Paula: Like it really is what we do is so powerful, you know?
Paula: And I think sometimes we forget the levers that we have control of.
Paula: So, yeah, yeah.
Paula: Super fun.
Joanna: That’s very true.
Joanna: Yes.
Joanna: Yeah, just since you mentioned that, Łukasz, just so funny, I remember just before I left, actually we had a promotion at Alshaya where we were rewarding five transactions.
Joanna: So for the first transaction, you get double points and triple.
Joanna: And of course, you know, at Alshaya, you have a huge diversity of the brands.
Joanna: And at the same time, the ATV, of course, differs hugely, right?
Joanna: So we were looking at how many people got the trick.
Joanna: And they bought the most expensive one, some furnitures and stuff, as the fifth transaction to be able to get that five, six, ten points.
Joanna: And imagine you have even some blogs sometimes, you can see people discussing things like this.
Joanna: Like, you know, guys, guess what?
Joanna: This company, this loyalty program has nothing to offer.
Joanna: Like, get smart, get smart.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: Yeah.
Paula: This is why you guys have to oversee.
Joanna: Correct.
Paula: Totally.
Paula: Check these promotions.
Joanna: Because you know, sometimes your cost can be much higher out of such a promotion, you know, than you forecast it.
Paula: I was going to say, I wish that was still live now.
Paula: I could buy four bars of chocolate and one new car.
Paula: I don’t know.
Paula: Suddenly five times the points.
Paula: That’s amazing.
Paula: And let’s talk about the other big topic of sustainability.
Paula: I know, as I said already earlier on, it’s something that has come through for many years now.
Paula: So it’s not going to be news to the audience.
Paula: For me, I think there’s some really good insights in terms of how can that actually happen on a very practical level.
Paula: And one that I think in Europe, particularly Łukasz, I see working very well and it’s happening more now as well.
Paula: Actually, Joe, you might see the same in this region, but it’s even something as simple as the digital receipts.
Paula: As something.
Paula: So it’s one thing for a big brand, whether it’s an airline or whatever, to have a sustainability goal.
Paula: And there’s big projects.
Paula: But to make it real, I feel it when somebody does send me a digital receipt and they’re not printing out paper, especially actually in convenience retail.
Paula: I really felt that consumers are kind of going, oh, well, that’s cool now.
Paula: You’re not giving me a paper receipt.
Paula: So were you surprised by the fact that sustainability is still coming through as a big topic?
Paula: Have we not done talking about it?
Paula: Or what’s your view on that?
Łukasz: So regarding the sustainability, loyalty can help here a lot.
Łukasz: Like you said, there’s, let’s say, digital receipts in the loyalty application.
Łukasz: Having the right regulations per country, we can just easily convert the customers from the receiving paper receipts to the digital one.
Łukasz: So we don’t need to waste the paper, we can save the environment.
Łukasz: And on the other hand, it’s much more convenient than collect the papers in the wallets.
Paula: Totally.
Łukasz: Exactly.
Paula: Who keeps those receipts anymore anyway?
Paula: I don’t.
Łukasz: And in case of any problems with the products, you can just easily open the app, find the right receipts, go to the store, and exchange the product.
Paula: It’s really simple.
Paula: Indeed.
Joanna: The biggest challenge actually with the receipts was that you can’t just read them after a couple of weeks anymore, right?
Joanna: So if I’m yet to return my product, forget, right?
Joanna: Because you just can’t read it anymore.
Paula: Exactly.
Paula: And if I even kept it, or it’s gone out with the cleaning, so I totally get it.
Joanna: This challenge is gone?
Paula: Indeed.
Paula: Exactly.
Paula: And so simple, actually.
Paula: So anybody who doesn’t have digital receipts, get that sorted.
Paula: That’s my top tip for 2025.
Joanna: But don’t do it via WhatsApp, please, because that’s too expensive.
Joanna: Don’t do it via the app, right?
Paula: OK, of course.
Joanna: Not sure if you remember, Paola, we talked about this, right?
Joanna: What we did with Alshayar, right?
Joanna: So they moved from printed receipts to WhatsApp or SMS.
Joanna: But then millions of members and millions of transactions, that costs huge money, right?
Joanna: So the best way was to integrate it with the loyalty app.
Paula: Perfect.
Paula: OK.
Paula: See, another top tip.
Paula: We’ve learned something from you again.
Paula: And that is actually another, I suppose, of my favourite learnings.
Paula: And I’m conscious, actually, we’re almost running out of time already.
Paula: We’ve talked through so little.
Paula: I feel like there’s so much more.
Paula: But anyway, the real point on that, for me, is WhatsApp in certain markets is so powerful, certainly here in the UAE.
Paula: I’m hearing a lot about it in South Africa.
Paula: I think India is doing really well with WhatsApp again for all of this kind of follow up.
Paula: So it’s just amazingly effective.
Paula: But the research also showed that particularly here in UAE and in Brazil, which I was thrilled to see, one of the key values was innovation.
Paula: So again, for any of our audience listening in those big markets and important markets and super competitive markets, to your point, then we really need to be thinking from an innovation perspective.
Paula: Whereas in Europe, it seems to be much more around simplicity and trust.
Paula: So those, I suppose, different geographical insights, that for me made a big difference as well.
Paula: And again, for our audience, you know, I think the key is actually just go and make sure you read the report.
Joanna: Absolutely.
Paula: For the region that you’re living in.
Paula: So don’t take our gospel, you know, in terms of a WhatsApp or whatever.
Paula: There’s different insights.
Paula: So we need to be really led by the local market.
Paula: Fantastic.
Paula: So there was one big final question, which of course we have to talk about.
Paula: And it was used in wonderful terms.
Paula: Actually they talked about the legendary question that we used to ask on our show about Favourite Loyalty programmes.
Paula: So I just wanted to see if you guys were impressed or surprised.
Paula: I was a little surprised, although in hindsight, when I reflected on it, Amazon Prime coming through from consumers as their favourite loyalty programme.
Paula: It’s probably about time it’s getting that recognition.
Paula: It always came in kind of second place for us.
Paula: We had different brands like Starbucks comes through from loyalty professionals, or certainly used to.
Paula: I think they’re also having a few challenges again.
Paula: You know, every brand goes through these different phases.
Paula: But Amazon Prime came through as the favourite loyalty programme.
Paula: So just maybe, Jo, if you had any thoughts on that closing question in the report, because I thought it was fascinating.
Joanna: Definitely it was.
Joanna: And I think especially, you know, when you think about and you ask people if they are ready to pay for being a part of the loyalty programme, right?
Joanna: Because Prime is nothing else than a subscription by its loyalty programme, right?
Paula: Yes.
Joanna: You just pay for having some extra benefits, which is, you know, one day delivery.
Joanna: You don’t have to pay your extra fee for the delivery and stuff like that, right?
Joanna: You have a chance to take a part in specific, you know, campaigns and offers for a couple of days just for the members, right?
Joanna: So I remember from some other surveys, when asking people, actually not so many are yet ready to go for it.
Joanna: But I think Amazon and specifically Amazon Prime, when it’s really to build, you know, such a great awareness and also its sense with its value so strong that people really believe in it and they see the value immediately, right?
Joanna: I think this is what it is, right?
Joanna: We are shopping Amazon perhaps at home, perhaps few times per week, right?
Joanna: We are receiving the orders because we are buying everything via Amazon now.
Joanna: So this value comes instantly, right?
Joanna: So that’s definitely something which is here and now, and it’s instant.
Joanna: And this is all what we love.
Joanna: I’m not even talking about the personalisation elements, right?
Paula: Which has been there for 20 years.
Joanna: Exactly.
Joanna: And to follow up, it’s time to refill guys.
Paula: They’ve done a genius job.
Joanna: Amazing.
Paula: I think for me, when it struck me again, how my behaviour had changed.
Paula: So yes, I had joined Prime.
Paula: I was happily justifying the cost.
Paula: But when I started buying groceries on Amazon, that was something that definitely I had shifted a category over because the delivery was already there.
Paula: So for me again, the subscription model, that psychology of the sunk cost, suddenly means my behaviour definitely changed.
Paula: So well done, Amazon.
Paula: 100% Not surprised to see it coming through.
Paula: So Łukasz, for you, anything on the Favourite Loyalty Programme’s insights?
Łukasz: To be honest, I don’t have Favourite Loyalty Programme.
Łukasz: Okay.
Paula: Love them all.
Paula: Exactly.
Łukasz: From that perspective, I would say yes.
Łukasz: But on the phone, I have more than 40 loyalty apps.
Paula: Oh my goodness.
Łukasz: Yes.
Łukasz: And I don’t see the perfect loyalty programme from my perspective.
Paula: And yet.
Paula: Yeah.
Łukasz: Yet.
Paula: Yes.
Łukasz: So from that perspective, I believe the companies have a lot of things to do to improve their loyalty programmes.
Paula: Okay.
Łukasz: Because there is so many factors which, from my perspective, impact the loyalty programmes and make them perfect, that I don’t see that one.
Łukasz: Yeah.
Łukasz: So collecting points, discounts, free shipment, everything is there, but there is no perfect balance between those elements.
Paula: Okay.
Łukasz: So there is no simple question, there is no simple answer.
Łukasz: I don’t have perfect loyalty programme yet.
Paula: Okay.
Paula: Well, you’ve set the bar.
Paula: Now we have to work harder.
Łukasz: Yes.
Paula: That’s perfect, Łukasz.
Paula: So listen, as we come to a close, was there anything else that you wanted to mention before we wrap up?
Paula: There’s so much in here, I know, huh?
Łukasz: Yeah, there is lots of information in the report.
Łukasz: So I think each loyalty expert will find there something what will be really crucial for him or her from the market perspective, but also from the global perspective.
Łukasz: So each market could inspire from the other markets and find a clue how to build the perfect loyalty programs with the different factors.
Łukasz: So I think that’s my conclusion for today.
Paula: Okay, okay.
Paula: And again, of course, the report will be linked in the show notes for this episode.
Paula: So it’s very easy for people.
Paula: It’s free.
Paula: The report is absolutely available, so they should just go and download it.
Paula: Absolutely.
Paula: That’s perfect.
Paula: Thank you, Łukasz.
Paula: And Jo, closing words of wisdom, please.
Joanna: Of wisdom.
Paula: Yes, I set the bar.
Joanna: I think, look, there was one element in that report, which was slightly controversial to me, and that’s because it’s very close to my heart and Łukasz as well.
Paula: Okay.
Joanna: I’m not going to say too much.
Joanna: You guys find it out, but very interesting, the perceived participation in the Fewer Loyalty programmes, which came extremely low in comparison to what it used to be over the past years.
Joanna: And while I think, you know, majority of us are having our cars, all the fuel stations have the loyalty programmes, there is something in it, people don’t see the big value in it.
Joanna: So that’s one bit which I found an interesting.
Joanna: So what I’m trying to say here, it is interesting report.
Joanna: So go for it, guys.
Joanna: Find something interesting for yourself, as Łukasz mentioned, learn from the other countries.
Joanna: There is definitely lots of great insights.
Paula: OK, I love it.
Paula: Teasing us just a little bit there.
Paula: Wonderful.
Paula: Well, listen, on that note, I’m going to first of all make sure that both of your profiles are linked in the show notes.
Paula: So anybody who wants to reach out to you personally for insights and more wisdom, of course.
Paula: Yeah, absolutely.
Paula: So listen, I have really enjoyed the conversation today, guys.
Paula: It’s an incredible investment in our industry that you’re publishing this report.
Paula: So a huge thank you from me and our global audience.
Paula: So Joanna Witsch, Senior Loyalty Consultant with Comarch and Łukasz Dubiel, Loyalty Solutions Consulting Director at Comarch.
Paula: Thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Joanna: Thank you very much.
Joanna: Thank you for having us, Paula.
Joanna: It was a pleasure.
Paula: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.
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