Paula: Welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I’m your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world.
I’m delighted to announce Capillary Technologies as the new title sponsor for Loyalty TV. Capillary’s mission is to bring the loyalty market out of the 1980s and into the present, ditching the slow, chunky manual services of the past. Capillary’s all about making loyalty management easy, with scalable AI powered tech that turns loyalty managers into superheroes. Say goodbye to outdated methods and check out the exciting new way to achieve loyalty excellence in 2024.
Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV. PAYBACK is an award winning customer loyalty program, which began in Germany almost 25 years ago and now operates in multiple countries worldwide. It is part of the American Express Group and also operates as a multi-channel marketing platform. When it comes to coalition loyalty, the PAYBACK program is undoubtedly one of the best in the world.
Joining me today for a second time on Let’s Talk Loyalty and the first time on Loyalty TV is Berni Brugger, CEO of the PAYBACK Group. When we last spoke in 2021, I remember being particularly impressed by the incredible 95 percent points redemption rate that PAYBACK had managed to achieve from its 31 million members in Germany. So I’m super excited to hear what’s been happening in the business since then. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Berni Brugger from PAYBACK Group. Enjoy!
So Berni, welcome back to Let’s Talk Loyalty and for the first time, welcome to Loyalty TV.
Berni: Hey Paula, great to be back again and looking forward to our conversation.
Paula: Indeed, I always describe your program as perhaps the best in the world as an example of coalition Berni. So it’s truly an honor to have your insights. And particularly after such a long break, it’s been three years since you’ve been on the show. Can you believe it?
Berni: Yeah, it’s it’s unbelievable. I thought upfront of the meeting. So how long was it that we talked and we were happy.
Paula: Oh my God. Indeed. Well, the audience is going to be dying to hear Berni. So let’s kick off with our favorite opening question. As you know, we always love to get inside the minds of loyalty professionals around the world, particularly in different markets. And I know you’re personally based in Germany. So I’m sure you have some something super interesting to share with our audience. So please do tell us what is your favorite loyalty program?
Berni: Yeah, let’s say and you said Paula, it’s not my own. So if I have to name a loyalty program, which is not PAYBACK I would say for me, the most important one is American Express Membership Rewards. And the reason is it’s easy to use and I’m getting a huge added value out of this because there are two very important things in my life. It’s a shopping and it’s be traveling, which is rewarded.
Saying or talking about traveling. so Miles & More is the other program which I like and use very often. So, so travel is deep in my DNA, business wise and privately. And the good thing is the three programs PAYBACK Membership Rewards, Miles & More. They are linked through our redemption channels to each other. So that’s great. And you see, I’m really convinced about multi partner programs because I think they are bringing the most benefit for the customers and all of them, they have a lot of value to offer.
Paula: A hundred percent, Berni. And I think we often talk about the earning side of multi partner programs, but I think the redemption side is often either a poor experience or it’s not easy to do. So it sounds like you’ve done a lot of work to make that really easy for your members.
Berni: Yeah. Let’s say I think it’s it always come back to the ease of use for our customers. So if it’s not easy, they won’t use it to that extent we would like them to use. And if there’s no value, it’s the same. So I think those are the two major things. It’s the easiness, it’s the value based on a huge reach. I think that’s valid for maybe all loyalty programs across the globe.
Paula: It totally is, Berni. I couldn’t have said it better myself. So we’re off to a flying start, literally with your Miles & More, if we excuse the pun, I can hear everybody probably groaning. But honestly, it’s my favorite sector, as you probably won’t be surprised. And at the same time, as you said, all of the other partners in every other area of my shopping life are equally important. So I know you have an incredible breadth of proposition.
So I wanted to start if you don’t mind Berni by just kind of going to I suppose what has changed in the three years since we talked in 2021. I have vivid memories of incredible membership numbers, the number of international markets, but most especially the number of redemptions, the percentage of redemptions that PAYBACK members were enjoying. So what can you share with us in 2024?
Berni: Yeah it’s funny because I know Paula you love the figure of of how many redemptions or what’s the percentage of redemption in our scheme. I know you loved it last time and you’re coming back again, but maybe to go one step back. So, as we said at the very beginning, it feels like 10 years since we last spoke not the three ones and the panic has grown a lot. So I’m quite happy to have the conversation today with you, because we have a lot to tell.
So we have grown not only in terms of partners, in terms of customers, especially in digitization. We talked about this last time in mobilization. So our app in the center of what we are doing. We’ve implemented a lot of new services. Maybe you remember the picture of the Swiss Knife. Our app should be the Swiss Knife of the retail.
And of course since since last time we really started to work deeply with AI, which was not in place the last time we spoke. If I can give you some examples, so we have added more than a hundred new partners to our scheme over the course of the last three years. And now we have over 700 well known companies that award PAYBACK customers with points online and in stores.
We have welcomed into our family, very high frequency partners, very strong ones for our customers, just to name a few in the digital area. We are very happy about Amazon. That’s a big motor for our digital business, but on the point of sale area we added CNA, added Decathlon, Globus, just to name a few big ones and on top of this and as you know, long term contracts are for us, as important as new ones because that means loyalty and that means customer relationship.
And so we had the important contract is extensions with dm-drogerie markt. So the biggest drugstore chain in Germany, Talia, the biggest bookstore chain and Phoenix, our pharmaceutical partner. So very happy about this one, but that’s only one part of our business.
The other one, and we discussed that last time, but it’s still growing. So now, we have 50% of our business, which is already purely digital. So we are really focusing on our online official partners, on our affiliates. But we added the new verticals or vertical structure such as telco and travel.
And if you look just at the travel vertical, we are really growing rapidly, especially after the pandemic. With partners like AIDA, Condor, HolidayCheck, Sixth, and many more. So that’s really an important one for us.
And as we discussed a major evolution for us and maybe not only evolution, revolution is for us, the topic mobilization and and here, same story. We have gained a couple of new PAYBACK app users this year and the last years. So now we have with 12 million app users, a really huge app reach and maybe we will touch this point in deeper detail, but now we are still number three, most important app in the retail sector after Amazon and eBay, which are also our partners.
Paula: Wow.
Berni: So maybe just to round it up. So now the turnover, which is rewarded with PAYBACK points is now around 40 billion euros in Germany alone.
Paula: Oh, my God. 40 billion. That’s unbelievable, Berni. That’s a brilliant number.
Berni: Brilliant number and the redemption rate to come back to the, to your beloved figure is not at 95%. It has fallen to 94%.
Paula: Okay.
Berni: But that’s still an amazing number. And again, that’s always the question, are the customers seeing value in your proposition, in your loyalty scheme, in the partners you are adding and are they using it? And then that’s why for us, the redemption number is the most important number, if that, to see how healthy our system is and how important the system is for our customers. Because if it’s not, top of mind, they won’t redeem.
Paula: A hundred percent. My goodness. Well, I’m still kind of, you know, processing the 40 billion turnover figure, Berni. So huge congratulations. I don’t think he gave me a turnover number last time. I think we focused mostly on the 95%. So, you know, what’s coming through is obviously extraordinary growth and the membership numbers. I remember, I hope I’m right from last time was about 80 million across the group. And so you still operating at numbers in, in those kinds of areas.
Berni: Maybe you remember, this was the number last time. You will hear why we will grow next, next year to a higher number, but we are quite happy with this number. And if you look at the at a couple of other figures concerning this PAYBACK is used 50 times per second in Germany alone. 4.2 million times a day and the value of points collected since launch is 6.6 billion euros. So quite a significant number. We already talked about the redemption rate and then let’s say our focus, which is now Europe and not global anymore.
Paula: Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, to be honest, I think, you know, the opportunities in Europe are more than enough, I would say to keep you extremely busy.
I think the appetite there, we’ve actually done quite a few shows about loyalty in Europe. And of course, it’s so different by each and every country, not just with language, but culturally and everything else. So PAYBACK is an iconic German brand. And I’m not saying surprised that’s where your focus is. So thank you for sharing that. I think the pandemic affected every brand in different ways, and sometimes you do have to say, no, this is where we need to focus our attention. So it’s very clear coming through and as you’ve shared the turnover figures, the engagement rates are amazing. So thank you for sharing all of those statistics.
I wanted to touch on, I suppose just something else I’m seeing in general Berni around, you know, I suppose a lot of other loyalty programs starting sometimes brands feel they might want to have their own program. And of course you’re a multi partner program. So is that something that has been any concern for you or how do you manage that when your partners as you’ve touched on, you know, are often very long term partners as they should be, but what do you do if they do kind of come up with this idea that they might go it alone?
Berni: Yeah let’s say you can see it in, in two directions. A, you can say, oh, that’s a huge threat and everyone is doing something by their own. They have the possibility because of the digitization, because of the upcoming app stories all our partners are having and potential partners too.
We see it differently because let’s say our principle is to bundle partners, services, products, benefits. In order to connect partners with customers and not only with the customers out of their own scheme with customers from all the other partners coming in into the scheme and are committed to earn much more points within the multi partner scheme. So, we apply this to everything. So from the credit card to our app, so it’s always one fits for all partners. And what we discussed is, so A, you can see it as a threat that somebody has his own his own app and is connecting himself with his customers. And we like this because we see it’s a great addition, not a replacement.
So, it makes a lot of sense for large partners, especially for large partners to offer for their customers, mainly the A customers or the best customers, their own app with special benefits with special connecting elements for the relevant industries. And why we are seeing it as an addition because we are connecting our app and our scheme with the app of the partners.
So we say being a democratic system, it’s not important from which angle a partner, a customer comes into the scheme or uses the scheme or sees value in the scheme. So we discuss this and we said we bring all our capabilities as well to the app of our partners. So, so there is no difference if you go to the loyalty sector in the app of for example, the drug store or at PAYBACK.
So it’s really, it’s really give them the customers, the choice to decide the channel the partners the right moment and that’s based on personalization. So we don’t see it as a huge threat and maybe we’ll discuss it. So we have a couple of great news for 2025. And you will see a lot of retailers see it the same as I’m seeing it.
Paula: Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. No, I think that’s very fair. As you said, very democratic. And and ultimately, you know, I suppose the mindset of loyalty is a huge benefit, of course, if you have got these incredible retailers who see the opportunity, as you said, perhaps to focus, you know, really on, on looking after their top customers. But also the magic words of cross sell and upsell is definitely something that every retailer is of course keen to, to plug into the ecosystem. So I like that you’re not seeing it as a challenge or a threat or as something that is an opportunity for all of your partners.
Berni: And it won’t go away. So let’s say if the market is developing you, you have to think how you would like to connect your customers your partners in this game, seeing that and maybe that’s the best word. We are connecting ecosystems and and that’s what our customers are expecting.
Paula: Indeed. Yes. Well, nothing stands still. We know the change is constant. So, of course, we all have to move with the times. So, so great great insights there, Berni. Now, you teased us a little bit to say that there’s a great things coming in 2025. The first thing I know is that it will be your 25 years operating as PAYBACK in Germany. So first of all, congratulations on the longevity. You probably can’t believe it.
Berni: Let’s say it’s 25 years and I’m 25 years in this company. So I’m the PAYBACK dinosaur. And sometimes I’m looking back and say, what the hell happened? Why? And I have a couple of good reasons. So, so it was a fantastic journey and we are very happy to celebrate next year to 25th anniversary, but even more, we are not happy to celebrate it alone. So we will celebrate with our existing partners.
I already stated that we re signed our major partners for a long next term. But there are a couple of partners coming in and are celebrating with us for the first time. And we have two amazing partners joining PAYBACK next year. So we are talking about market leaders in the respective sector.
A, and you know that better talking about loyalty on a broad base. For us, the most important partners are the high frequency ones because they are adding value and the customers are connecting on a regular basis with us and with them anyhow.
So the food retailer is in the heart of what we are doing. It’s very important, it’s very relevant. And we will start with a new partner in 2025, which is Edeka, Netto and Markov. So the discounter, the supermarket discounter, Edeka and Markov will start at the beginning of next year. So very happy. We took this decision to change from the number two river to the market leader, Edeka, especially because we see a perfect strategic fit for the future into our multi partner family.
And so let’s say you could say we wanted Edeka. Edeka wanted us and we are really looking forward to start with such a big partner and with more point of sales, more turnover or potential turnover. So this will be a huge next step for the coalition saying clearly we had a fantastic partnership with Rewe until now, but now we are moving on that’s one major change. So we are really in a transition.
And the second one or a second partner who will join us mid next year is the Sparkassen Group, which is the largest financial group in Europe with over 40 million debit cards only in Germany. And with those two fantastic partners we are really we are really adding again, many market leaders to the great partners, which are there already. And so that’s the reason why, in addition to what we are doing for the customers and in terms of tech and for the marketing platform, we are on the way to the best PAYBACK ever in 2025. And that’s cool to celebrate the birthday with the best PAYBACK ever and coming in such big partners and such big value for our customers.
Paula: That’s wonderful. My goodness, Berni I was afraid you were going to tease us and say that you couldn’t tell us who the partners were, but brilliant that it’s in the public domain. Congratulations. That sounds like a lot of work first and foremost, but massive benefits for your members.
Berni: Exactly. Exactly. And both is true. So it’s not easy for the company. And you have to be very careful how much you can put again and again on, on the people and then on your colleagues. But everyone is so excited that we are saying, hey, come on. We will make it even if it’s a little bit exhausting, but the price is is so high and we are really looking forward to that.
Paula: Yeah. Yeah. And I think what it does as well, Berni, is it does invigorate a program, you know, with like energizes, obviously attracts. It’s a whole new market and particularly, I mean, forgive me, I don’t know the German brand names, but we will make sure to get them from you so we can link to them in our show notes for anyone who does want to look up those new partners that you’re announcing.
But what I really like is the fact that you’re saying it is a discounter as a grocery partner because in the past I, you know, I mean, honestly, like the likes of the ones I’d be familiar with in Ireland, like Aldi and Lidl. They never had loyalty programs until very recently. So there’s been a huge shift in terms of the appreciation, even in lower margin retail businesses, that they can still afford to be part of loyalty if they do it properly.
Berni: Yeah. Let’s say to clarify it’s Edeka, which is a supermarket and number one in Germany and one of the biggest in Europe. And its net, which is part of the Edeka Group. And Netto is the, it’s a, it’s not a discounter in the way you would say Penny, Aldi, Lidl and Penny already used to be part of us. It’s a brand discounter, so it’s a little different. But they are part of the bigger group and they see a huge value that, that they see customers from Edeka, Netto and the other partners. And that was the main reason that both of the four months are joining PAYBACK.
Paula: Amazing. Okay. Well, thank you for the clarification. Again, very useful for our audience around the world to know the, I suppose the positioning of what feels like the right fit as you come into this big celebration. I’m sure you have lots of other plans, do you, for the big year of 25? Are you celebrating all year round or is it something that happens at a particular time during the year, do you think?
Berni: Let’s say both, Paula. So, so, so we have so much to celebrate next year that the timing of the events will be a little challenge for us. So we, we will be present in all communication channels with the news, with our anniversary. We will have a big party in summertime together with our partners and the colleagues of our partners and our colleagues because apart from our partners and our customers, the most important thing are our colleagues and our colleagues did that. So we are not only celebrating 25 years of PAYBACK, we are celebrating 25 years of excellent, fantastic colleagues. And this is this is really a reason to have a fantastic summer party.
But apart from that, we will be present in all channels ATL below the line, very strong in social media channels. So we have a lot to tell and I’m very sure and I know that our partners, those who are coming in and the other ones welcoming them, they will dedicate their marketing badges to a high extent in 2025 to PAYBACK. So really looking forward to make the next step of our history.
Paula: Yeah, totally. Yeah. What a wonderful way to celebrate, as you said, bringing all of the really important people together, because it is that energy. And of course, the internal people, the partners, of course, the broader ecosystem.
And actually, and I didn’t ask you this before, so if you can’t answer, you know, problem, but I’d love to get a sense of the scale of your team, Berni, and it’s something that I think our audience always love to get a sense on. I did an interview recently in person actually at a conference with Qantas and I couldn’t believe when they told me they’ve like 650 people working just in Qantas loyalty and that I think helps other marketers understand the kind of resources that are required to build something at the scale of what you’re doing. Is it something you can share in terms of the size of your team?
Berni: I can sure make a guess Paula.
Paula: Got it. I’m sure it changes on a daily basis. Tell us.
Berni: No. Let’s say before I say the number, I think it’s important to see that over 50 percent of our colleagues are working in the tech space. So we are seeing us, today, not only as a marketing sales company, so we are a really a tech company. And this is the majority of our colleagues together in Europe we are over 1,300 working for PAYBACK or for the PAYBACK Group, including the LPS.
Paula: Incredible. Incredible. Wow. Thank you for sharing that, Berni. Absolutely amazing. And again, of course, the tech is fundamental, and I know that’s how you’re positioning the business in order to deliver the level of sophistication and simplicity, I suppose, at the same time that that you’re so focused on. So, so thank you for sharing that.
We’ve talked a bit about what you’re going to be celebrating next year in 2025, Berni but you have been celebrating, I know, some other awards recently the German Bonus Awards. So tell us a bit about what you’ve been winning because you must’ve been thrilled with yourself with those.
Berni: Yeah, it’s A we love to take part. And We won for the fourth time, the Bonus Awards they are really a great addition to the loyalty landscape. And we are very proud that we were able to achieve those excellent results. And let’s say it’s not a matter of course, that customers give such great praise and the vote so highly for the product, the app, the PAYBACK services.
So it’s it’s something coming out of the customers and that’s for us the most important one. If it’s not a jury or something else, so if really our customers are voting for us, and so we will definitely taking part in the Bonus Awards again, and looking forward to next year and hope to replicate our results.
Paula: Incredible. I hope so too. So listen to me. I suppose the other big topic of the day, of course, is AI. As you briefly mentioned earlier, Berni, AI wasn’t something we talked about in 2021 but I’m sure it’s extremely important now. How are you thinking about AI within the PAYBACK Group? Is it something that’s front and center or are you still exploring? Where are you with the AI in the business?
Berni: Let’s say it’s funny. A lot of companies are saying, ah, we are using AI like hell already. We are doing this but it’s still exploring. So we are not at the end that the AI story is just at the beginning. And for us, let’s say the philosophy is today more than ever, the customers, they want highly relevant product offers that are tailored to them and the best offer and the price advantage. So that’s basically what they’re suit based on simplicity or based on ease of use.
And that’s why we think the future of retail is not longer just about personalization. This is something we know that’s the one and one, but it’s hyper personalization and in order to really accelerate us in the recent years, we have really involved in AI and have expanded our platforms, especially for even better PAYBACK with better offers and saying that, for example, we use AI to make coupons more relevant to make recommendations. Our recommendation engine is purely based on AI in the PAYBACK online shops and also for strategic marketing planning. We are using it. And last not least for the creation of our famous appointees and by the way, they really, really look very funny at the very beginning where we used AI.
So I think we are on the AI journey. Everyone is on an AI journey and AI is on the journey. So it’s developing from day to day. And I think it’s very important for all companies not only in the loyalty space, really to work with that because this will be part of our future.
Paula: Indeed. Yes. No, I think you’re absolutely right. I feel like it’s when the internet first arrived and you and I are both old enough to remember days, I think, before internet and the dramatic transformation. And it seems so obvious in hindsight when the technology is fully embedded in our everyday lives. And I really feel like the next time we talk, please God, it’s not three years from now, but even if it’s next year, the year after, I think AI is definitely gonna, you know, really impress us all with things that for me, I certainly can’t even imagine.
So I’ll definitely be looking and listening and watching to see what PAYBACK does in the AI space. As you’ve said, hyper personalization, extremely important, and customers expect it now, so we really do have to live up to those expectations. We’ve been trying for a long time, but I still don’t think we’ve totally nailed it, so please God, we’re nearly there now but it is an ongoing journey, as you’ve said.
The other big one, of course, is always CSR, which I know has been a big topic for the PAYBACK Group. So tell me, how is the CSR planning or, I suppose, propositions going on within PAYBACK? What kind of initiatives do you have?
Berni: Let’s see, I have since 15 years, we are working with the PAYBACK donation world. So, so called and I think that’s a fantastic one. And we are still very committed regarding the charity projects. So we are running apart from the big charity projects, which are supportive from our mother, American Express they are really donating a lot in that area. But for us, it’s a, it’s as well important to connect us with the CSR areas.
And so we are still focusing One Redemption Channel on the charity platform, Better Place, which is the PAYBACK Donation World, or the company behind the PAYBACK Donation World. And I’m very proud of this because the PAYBACK points are worth more than 8.5 million which are donated in those charity projects.
And even more as a Munich based company we have our long term engagements with local organizations for children and for senior citizens in need. And not only by paying money or donating money. So, our colleagues here, they have the ability or the possibility to work two days a year without taking a vacation for one of those one of those organizations. And our people really love that, that they can give something back. So, it’s not only the broad PAYBACK scheme, it’s in the small one and in the scheme, I think that’s very important and that’s our focus talking about CSM.
Paula: Love it. Yeah. I mean, we often talk about emotional loyalty and it’s important that we do take that time and give that time, which is of course your role.
As you said, if your colleagues can go and spend some time and go out into other organizations and be of service that’s very gratifying. I think we all know as human beings we can get caught up with the day to day of our business lives. But really nice to get out of the office and get in and do something good.
And of course the number eight and a half million, that’s incredible. That’s obviously something you’re very proud of as well.
Berni: Yes, definitely.
Paula: Incredible. Great stuff. So listen, my, my final question then Berni is just, you briefly touched on your parent company, American Express. So that’s obviously not the consumer facing brand in terms of the coalition program that you lead.
So on the outside we see PAYBACK, on the inside you see American Express and PAYBACK. So I just wanted to see if there’s anything you can share in terms of what it’s like to operate like as part of such a ginormous group in the role that I know you’ve grown in many times over your 25 years there. So yeah, just anything you can share on that would be really interesting for our audience.
Berni: Yes. And as you said, so, so we’ve been part of American Express now since 2011. So it’s quite a journey and quite a long time. And I think it was always a huge advantage for both sides. And we are working together perfectly, but and I think that’s very important for our company on arm’s length.
So, I think that Amex really did a fantastic job not to buy a company and integrating into the big scheme so to say, Hey, they have capabilities and they are running a business a little different than we are doing it. So leave them alone, let them do your job and look after the connections, which are important, relevant, and helpful for one side of the business.
And even more, I’m responsible for the American Express business in Germany for two years now. So we are connecting behind the scenes because our aim is to leverage more synergies between Frankfurt and Germany and Munich, where the headquarters of PAYBACK is. And to help both companies to accelerate growth one of the most important aims is clearly the PAYBACK Amex credit card which is one of the most relevant credit card portfolios in the meanwhile in the industry. So it’s a very successful credit card. We are, we are looking after even adding more value, adding more features, but so far 50 percent of the Amex space in Germany, is it the PAYBACK American Express card? So there’s a value for Amex as well in, in acquiring PAYBACK.
And on the other side, the question is how we help each other talking about new partners. So sometimes we have joint efforts, but that’s always apart from the Amex credit card behind the scenes. And I really have to give all credits to American Express. It’s a fantastic mother. We have room to maneuver and we have to help when we need it. So that’s excellent.
Paula: It sounds absolutely perfect, Berni. My goodness. I like a bit of arm’s length myself as I probably won’t surprise you as a small business owner myself. I like to make my own decisions. And there’s a lot of freedom and flexibility, but the support of course is incredible as well that you have access to.
So listen that’s all the questions I have for you today, Berni. Was there anything else that you wanted to mention before we wrap up?
Berni: Let’s say you, you mentioned that the 25th anniversary and for me, it’s very important. And I would love to close with that to say thank you to my very special colleagues, which I’m allowed to work here. So they are making this company what it is and they are the reason why I’m here since so many years. So, at that point in time, thank you for all, thanks to all my colleagues. They are wonderful and I love to work with them.
Paula: Incredible. Well, well said, and I’m sure they love to work with you as well. And from our side, I suppose, I’m hoping it’s not another three years, as I’ve said, before we get to have a conversation. And if we’re really lucky, maybe we’ll get to meet in person someday, Berni. We’ve never met in person as yet, huh?
Berni: We never met in person, but next interview, we should do it in one room and see each other. That would be fantastic.
Paula: I think we need to make that happen. I’m going to set that intention. So listen, I’m going to let you go back to the day job, Berni. So Berni Brugger, CEO, Global Loyalty Coalition for the PAYBACK Group and Executive Vice President for American Express International Card Services, thank you so much from Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV.
Berni: Thank you, Paula for having me.
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