Scaling Loyalty with TenX (#745)

Ben: Create thinking time.

Ben: So if you create time to actually sit and allow yourself to think about solving a very specific problem, by the time you get to your kind of 20th resolution, you’ll get to the kind of core answer that you need.

Ben: And I’ve always had this loyalty equation in my mind, which is around habits multiplied by emotional value, multiplied by social identity slash status, minus friction or cognitive effort, is ultimately the perfect blend.

Ben: So if you look at that from an example, habit would be, I’m a coffee drinker.

Ben: So the emotional value would be, I get presented a free coffee at the right moment.

Ben: Maybe it’s my birthday.

Ben: Maybe I’m walking past Costa.

Ben: And then the social identity or status, which is, I win it.

Ben: So it’s a prize draw or it’s a recognition.

Ben: So I feel good about that.

Ben: Not everyone has that, only I do.

Ben: And then minus the friction, which is it’s on a QR code and I can just scan it at the POS.

Ben: That for me is an equation that works incredibly well.

Ben: And obviously in some situations, you received the wrong offer at the wrong time, but get the equation right.

Ben: I think you have a wonderful connection there with brand, customer and experience.

Ben: If you save people money, it’s a fact, right?

Ben: CFOs love that.

Ben: Saving money is a fact.

Ben: Incremental, whether it’s growth, potential, revenue, engagement is a promise.

Ben: And promises are harder to sell than facts.

Ben: So if you can say, well, is giving someone a free movie or a free pizza for maybe 10 to 15, actually not expensive, if it helps a resolution for someone reporting something to Ofcom and they get charged a thousand pounds.

Ben: There’s like a really different perspective on loyalty and how to solve problems, which is I don’t have now a happy customer I want to make even happier.

Ben: I have a challenged customer.

Ben: How do I make them happier?

Ben: It started with a little tear.

Ben: So think of it like a pyramid.

Ben: And at the bottom of the pyramid, there are your capabilities.

Ben: So it’s like, what capabilities do you need to drive the required customer behavior or outcome that you want?

Paula: Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, a show for loyalty marketing professionals.

Paula: I’m Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let’s Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV, where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world’s leading brands.

Paula: Today’s episode is hosted by Charlie Hills, Chief Strategy Officer of Mando, a UK-based agency that uses smart data to create brilliant partnerships and rewards that really work.

Paula: Enjoy.

Charlie: Hello, and welcome to this episode of Let’s Talk Loyalty.

Charlie: As Paula mentioned, I’m Charlie Hills, the Chief Strategy Officer for Mando Connect.

Charlie: In this episode, I’m delighted to interview Ben Stirling, an experienced commercial executive with a track record of scaling loyalty platforms, transforming sales organizations, and delivering growth to market strategies that drive acquisition and revenue growth.

Charlie: He’s led commercial transformations at Expedia, Tenerity and Capillary, launched new solutions, expanded into international markets, and delivered results across multiple sectors.

Charlie: He’s currently a fractional CRO at TenX Strategy and supports PE backed and enterprise firms in building predictable revenue systems and exit ready growth.

Charlie: His impact includes scaling Tenerity’s loyalty marketplace solution to acquisition in two years, providing loyalty solutions to Santander, CNA, British Gas, TD Bank and Frontier, and growing commercial channels at Expedia that delivered over $200 million in new revenue.

Charlie: In this episode, Ben shares his proven insights on how to sell loyalty internally, from aligning feature sets to user needs to securing C-suite backing with ROI models and ultimately winning board level buy-in by linking loyalty to long-term enterprise value.

Charlie: We’ll also be learning about his favorite books and highlights of key learnings from the programs he’s worked on too.

Charlie: I hope you really enjoy our conversation today.

Charlie: Hello Ben and welcome to Let’s Talk Loyalty.

Charlie: Delighted to have you on the show today.

Ben: Thanks Charlie, great to be here.

Ben: I have listened to the podcast for a long time so it is a real pleasure to join the conversation.

Charlie: Oh fantastic, we love a fan.

Charlie: I’ll ask you later what your favorite episode was but not for now.

Charlie: Today we’re going to focus make it all about you.

Charlie: So before we get into the details of all the brilliant programs you’ve worked on, on all those insights about how to sell loyalty internally, I’m going to start with our favorite favorite question which is please Ben, tell me and all our listeners and our audience what your favorite book is about life, leadership or loyalty.

Ben: Okay, so I read a lot of books.

Ben: I have two favorites.

Ben: I’m going to pick Loyalty first.

Ben: So Hooked by Nia Ayal was probably one of the most inspiring books I ever read.

Ben: And that was really because it taught me a lot about loyalty programs, but also about human behavior.

Ben: And it probably was one of the catalysts that got me addicted to behavioral economics and learning all about influencing human decision making.

Ben: And that whole principle around triggers lead to actions that have variable rewards attached them that then you can invest in.

Ben: And it was kind of a thesis that I used going forward about creating what I called profitable loyalty programs.

Ben: And the other book I have to mention, because it was quite life changing for me, was The Road to Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham.

Ben: Fantastic book.

Ben: Love the title.

Ben: If you listen to Keith, you’ll love it.

Paula: I’ve not heard of that.

Ben: Yeah, very good.

Ben: So real kind of introduction to everything to do with business, but you know, ex CFO for very large organizations.

Ben: But you know, now really simplifies everything.

Ben: And his still take away is create thinking time.

Ben: So if you create time to actually sit and allow yourself to think about solving a very specific problem, by the time you get to your kind of 20th resolution, you’ll get to the kind of core answer that you need.

Ben: And so it fantastic book taught me a huge amount.

Charlie: Oh, gosh, I think that’s what we’re all after at the moment, isn’t it?

Ben: Yeah, exactly.

Charlie: I love that.

Charlie: I’ll put that in my work diary, thinking time.

Charlie: I can just imagine how my CEO would react.

Ben: Yeah, exactly.

Ben: I’m having a digital detox right now.

Ben: I can’t talk.

Ben: I’m in thinking mode.

Ben: But yeah, that’s that’s his whole takeaway from all of it.

Ben: And every chapter is summarized with what he calls his bumper sticker, which is this kind of core takeaway for the chapter.

Ben: And he has this kind of wonderful kind of southern Texan accent and basically, should I say, kind of slaps you in the face with the takeaway.

Ben: And you go, yep, I should be doing that.

Ben: I’m not doing that.

Ben: So it’s really good.

Charlie: Well, check out everybody.

Charlie: That’s two really good recommendations and leads us quite nicely onto your favorite loyalty program or programs.

Charlie: Which ones do you recommend we all go and have a look at and why?

Ben: Absolutely.

Ben: Well, I don’t think I’d add anything original here because I thought about this a lot.

Ben: And I thought, you know, I have to be really honest about what program have I utilized the most.

Ben: And I don’t utilize probably unlike a lot of other people, a lot of the airline programs.

Ben: I became a bit, you know, I lost a lot of shine for those when a lot of the changes happen.

Ben: But the one program I have used consistently since I probably my first job, when someone turned around and said to me, you know what you should have is an Amex Gold Card.

Ben: Because if you start collecting membership reward points, you have this wonderful opportunity to use those on a variety of different merchants.

Ben: There’s very little limitations.

Ben: You can, you know, now you can pay down your bill.

Ben: Obviously, you can use it with the British Airways and turn that into Avios.

Ben: So I have used that program and I am what I would probably classed as a natural squirrel hoarder of points, because I think there’s a real psychology there, right?

Ben: Which is like customers love to have points for later, even if like a immediate cash back reward, for example, is mathematically better.

Ben: They like that feeling of holding on to something of value.

Ben: I fit in that category very well.

Charlie: Oh, that’s great.

Charlie: Yeah, that’s such a big program.

Charlie: And it’s so beloved, I think, people.

Charlie: It just becomes part of people’s psyche, doesn’t it?

Charlie: And then all the lovely benefits and rewards you get with it as well.

Charlie: So that’s a great example.

Charlie: And I’m thinking back, I don’t think any of my guests have referenced that one in a while, actually.

Charlie: So you probably are being quite original.

Charlie: I don’t think I’m a major Amex fan on for a while.

Charlie: So that’s great.

Ben: Yeah.

Ben: There you go.

Ben: Exactly.

Charlie: What about your background and what you like about working in loyalty marketing?

Charlie: I think one of the things that’s so interesting about you as a guest is you’ve worked on it from lots of different angles and actually from quite a nice sort of revenue and commercial point of view as well, which brings some fresh thinking.

Charlie: But what do you like about working in loyalty marketing?

Ben: Why do I love loyalty?

Ben: Well, ultimately, because I’ve been involved in lots of solutions and bringing solutions to businesses that perhaps haven’t in the past had the capability to deliver everything from personalization, marketing and communication, curation of rewards, offers or surprise and delighting customers into those propositions has meant that one partnership has reached millions of people.

Ben: I love, honestly, that thought, that small reward on someone’s day could really change someone’s brand perception dramatically, could just make them feel great or valued.

Ben: And I’ve always had this loyalty equation in my mind, which is around habits multiplied by emotional value, multiplied by social identity slash status, minus friction or cognitive effort is ultimately the perfect blend.

Ben: So if you look at that from an example, habit would be, I’m a coffee drinker.

Ben: So the emotional value would be, I get presented a free coffee at the right moment.

Ben: Maybe it’s my birthday.

Ben: Maybe I’m walking past Costa.

Ben: And then the social identity or status, which is I win it.

Ben: So it’s a prize draw or it’s a recognition.

Ben: So I feel good about that.

Ben: Not everyone has that.

Ben: Only I do.

Ben: And then minus the friction, which is it’s on a QR code and I can just scan it at the POS.

Ben: That for me is an equation that works incredibly well.

Ben: And obviously in some situations you receive the wrong offer at the wrong time, but get the equation right.

Ben: I think you have a wonderful connection there with brand, customer and experience.

Charlie: Yeah, it’s a really nice way of thinking about it actually.

Charlie: And I like the fact that it’s so audience centric.

Charlie: I think a lot of people talk about loyalty and rewards and impacts in quite sort of commercial transactional terms.

Charlie: And actually you can really see the psychology playing through that.

Charlie: And obviously that’s a thread that’s kind of run through a lot of the programs that you’ve worked on in the past and the products that you’ve launched.

Charlie: I’m assuming everybody listened to my introduction and everybody will have looked at the show notes, but we might have a few people watching and listening who didn’t.

Charlie: It will be really helpful for them if you could give us a bit of an overview of that, the programs that you’ve worked on and the products that you’ve brought to market.

Ben: Yes, absolutely.

Ben: So I was responsible for the go-to-market strategy for a product that used to be named as Connect.

Ben: And ultimately, the goal of that product was, like I was saying earlier, was here is this solution for perhaps a brand that does not have, at the time, a loyalty function or 50 people or 20 people even designated to creating an award-winning or killer marketplace or loyalty proposition.

Ben: And it was like, how do we put that all into a SaaS solution?

Ben: And I remember very clearly though, the CEO is saying to me, yeah, but can you make it profitable?

Ben: I was like, okay, that’s a nice equation part to add, right?

Ben: Which is to your point, which is how do you create a cycle which ultimately does that, you know, habits, emotional value, social status or identity, removes friction, but also generates a return because ultimately a lot of people in loyalty are struggling with how to justify or quantify loyalty.

Ben: So I took a principle or a model that I’d learned from my time at a prior company where we were focused on cash back and coupons and discounts that all generate a commission.

Ben: And it was to create this principle whereby you could provide rewards and everyday content that was commission or revenue generating.

Ben: And the revenue from that could be utilized to fund Surprise and Delight offers.

Ben: So now you had an engine.

Ben: You had something that people could use and was of value.

Ben: And if it was curated and personalized, that meant that they were getting value or getting habits from relevancy.

Ben: And then that would go back in to Surprise and Delight them with that wonderful free coffee we mentioned.

Ben: So I worked with Santander to really shift from what was quite a transactional relationship, even in their solution that they had at the time, which is we’ll give you money if you change vendor or supplier for, you know, your broadband or your TV to something that helped drive NPS and satisfaction.

Ben: So that was a fantastic early partnership and really helped customers feel a bit smarter about, you know, the card they were using, the card of choice and the money that they were saving as part of the experience with Santander.

Ben: British Gas, which was super interesting because, you know, this was at a time when energy crisis was a big tagline, right?

Ben: So it was everything to do with how can we help customers save money every day, right?

Ben: And that program, you know, in different capacity, but it’s gone on to expand into a really interesting direction around, you know, how do you actually help people with everyday savings, but maybe help them use that to pay back, like, or pay down energy bills and things like that.

Ben: So super, super kind of, if you like, driving value to customers, but also helping with a bigger kind of, you know, market problem.

Ben: CNA was another really exciting proposition because CNA was very much around, you know, we have a large consumer base, typically in Europe, not in UK anymore.

Ben: So when I say CNA, my friends go, wait a minute, remember them well.

Ben: But it was CNA was we have great stores, we have, you know, a manual card and it’s like, well, how do we turn that into a digital experience, but recognizes the customer in both situations.

Ben: So what you might term as a single customer view.

Ben: And that’s really powerful for a retailer, right?

Ben: Because you can then start to segment and think about, well, when we do a sale, do we want to give a sale to everyone or do we want to give it to our loyalty customers first and let them have the choice?

Ben: And then provide it to us.

Ben: So there’s differentiation in those tiers, not just from a points perspective, but from what products we have.

Ben: And instead of just giving something out in a sale, we give it strategically or tactically.

Ben: And then the final one I’ll add is just VM02.

Ben: So brands like VM02, I think are really interesting because telcos struggle with commoditized products.

Ben: So really their loyalty program becomes the differentiation point.

Ben: So when you’re looking at loyalty, I know a big challenge for loyalty managers is like, well, how do I get this quantified internally?

Ben: One of the things that I recognized is that there is a huge cost involved and I love costs because if you save people money, it’s a fact.

Ben: CFOs love that.

Ben: Saving money is a fact.

Ben: Incremental, whether it’s growth, potential, revenue, engagement is a promise.

Ben: And promises are harder to sell than facts.

Ben: And if you look at a telco and you see what they spend on, you know, opcom and they spend on penalties and, you know, customers complaining and reporting challenges with the service, solutions that they’ve expressed, the fines could be thousands of pounds.

Ben: Yeah.

Ben: So if you can say, well, is giving someone a free movie or a free pizza for maybe 10 to 15 actually not expensive if it helps a resolution for someone reporting something to opcom and they get charged a thousand pounds for it?

Ben: So there’s like a really different perspective on loyalty and how to solve problems, which is I don’t have now a happy customer I want to make even happier.

Ben: I have a challenged customer.

Ben: How do I make them happier or have a higher satisfaction in my resolution, which is, I think, a really unexplored area of where loyalty can have a really big impact.

Ben: And the beauty is it has a quantifiable return on investment, which a lot of the time can be quite hard to find.

Charlie: That’s really interesting.

Charlie: And I think that duality then again, that it’s, you know, it’s customer centric and it’s really identified on sort of core human needs, but it’s also very aligned to how businesses actually operate and how they make decisions.

Charlie: And I know that’s one of the things you’re really known for.

Charlie: And one of the things we were going to talk about as well was how to get those kind of internal architectures and internal stakeholders to sign off your loyalty program and your business case.

Charlie: And actually, that’s a really interesting thing with the facts and the promises.

Charlie: I hadn’t really thought about it like that, but we are.

Charlie: A lot of it is a wing and a prayer, isn’t it?

Charlie: It’s like, actually, we think we can deliver this.

Charlie: So how do you approach getting a business to approve the launch of a new loyalty program or product feature?

Charlie: How do you apply that sort of thinking to that sort of challenge?

Ben: Yeah, absolutely.

Ben: And I should give you this image to put into the subsection for people to have, because I built a slide for, I actually built it for a client, because I was talking to them about what was your internal approval process, and to be fair, the biggest takeaway and learning I had was, is a lot of people aren’t certain or sure on what that process looks like, who has to be involved, how many stakeholders have to sign off, what actually they determine is the key criteria to approve something.

Ben: And I thought, okay, let me help with that, because I’ve spoken to a lot of organizations in different sectors, and I can probably help build a map for you, but I said, let’s just put it in a simple kind of layered approach.

Ben: And I did this, I shared it with my team, and suddenly I see all my team speaking to clients with this slide.

Ben: And I’m like, hey guys, this is internal, this wasn’t for all the clients.

Ben: And they’re like, yeah, I know, but the clients love it.

Ben: And I was like, okay, so let’s like really look at this and let’s like make it better.

Ben: And it started with a tier, so think of it like a pyramid.

Ben: And at the bottom of the pyramid, there are your capabilities.

Ben: So it’s like, what capabilities do you need to drive the required customer behavior or outcome that you want?

Ben: And I think of this as the foundation, because it’s where a lot of people and loyalty managers will go, okay, well, I really want like a single customer view.

Ben: I’d like access or better utilization of my data.

Ben: Or actually, do I really need to be able to cross-sell and upsell?

Ben: And it’s like, okay, so those capabilities that you need to deliver that, and then they’ll start going, you know what tool is really good for that?

Ben: It’s this, and we should definitely have that tool.

Ben: But before we even get to tools, I’m like, okay, so if that’s the capability or the outcomes that you want, what customer behavior, which is that next here up, do you need to create?

Ben: And more importantly, what customer behavior leads to a business outcome being met?

Ben: So customer behavior might be more transactions, increased engagement, multiple product adoption, like we mentioned.

Ben: That’s like an operational layer.

Ben: But if you think about that, when you have then defined what those are, your next layer up in the pyramid is the C level kind of sign off, or the business sign off.

Ben: Now I call those business outcomes.

Ben: So you’ve got customer outcomes, those are clear.

Ben: What are my business outcomes?

Ben: Well, all customer behavior should be tied to a business outcome, because these always lead back to profit and potentially even meet strategic outcomes, which is the top of our pyramid.

Ben: So let’s just quickly look at profit.

Ben: Four things in my mind that always make up our profit.

Ben: So it could be more of existing sales or new sales, an increase in margin or a reduction in cost and efficiency.

Ben: So all of those things, whether it’s more transactions, increased engagement, more should lead back to an identifiable path towards a business outcome that leads back to profit.

Ben: That is where most things are missed.

Ben: In the experience I’ve had in speaking to loyalty managers, it’s a sometimes hard thing to bond together.

Ben: And that’s where I spent a lot of my time, is how to do that in order to create a business case that is very clear for a business leader, which is, well, of course we should do this because look at what it leads back to for the business.

Ben: Now the icing on the cake that I will add is strategic outcomes.

Ben: I like to have this as like an inverse triangle because these are bigger causes beyond everyday business.

Ben: It could be board level, right?

Ben: It could be for British Gas, sustainability, or a fashion retailer, good one, for sustainability.

Ben: So what that plays out like, and the scenario I used to give my team is, okay, let’s walk through a customer example.

Ben: So it’s like, I want to grow customer engagement, great.

Ben: Why is engagement important to grow?

Ben: Well, because I want to generate more transactions.

Ben: So now we have like a customer level outcome.

Ben: What kind of transactions do you want more of?

Ben: Well, I need higher margin products to grow GP margin by about 10%.

Ben: Okay, so now we’ve got a really clear business outcome.

Ben: What if we did that with sustainable products or brands?

Ben: Then it’s like, yeah, well, actually we invest about 5% of profits into sustainable projects.

Ben: Great.

Ben: So if you had a single user experience that pulls together transactions, reward tiers based on sustainable products, would that be a good thesis for your loyalty capability?

Ben: So by bringing those things together, you can create something really powerful for your customers, meaningful for the business, and you can get each layer of the business to sign off because you’re meeting their objectives.

Charlie: Nice.

Charlie: I love the way as well that reflects the corporate structure as well actually.

Charlie: You can almost see that as a series of meetings.

Charlie: I can see that starting in marketing and commercial teams, moving to C-suite, moving to CEO, and then kind of board level approval.

Charlie: So we’ll make sure we put that visual in the show notes for everyone to have a look at.

Charlie: If you have any questions or you’re keen to understand how that might apply for your loyalty program, we’ll also pop Ben’s contact details in because I’m sure it’s one of those models that makes a lot of sense.

Charlie: But actually, you really need to understand that granularity of it to apply it.

Charlie: So that’s really interesting.

Charlie: Thank you for sharing.

Charlie: What about some of those highs and lows?

Charlie: Because we’ve all been in those meetings, we’ve all launched new programs, we’ve all evolved existing programs, and the business case bit is, in all honesty, the part of proceedings where most loyalty marketers get up, because most people get into it because of that lovely customer centric ability to shift behaviors and create positive moments and drive long-term value.

Charlie: What have been some of your highs and lows?

Ben: Yeah, that’s a really, really interesting question.

Ben: And I think I’m going to revert to something I said earlier because I have a really clear high, which is, I think it was really lovely to feel like when a product, but essentially when a product feels like it’s your child or your baby, as part of obviously a wider team that has to make these things happen, of course, it’s like you feel very passionate about it.

Ben: And so I think taking my highs in loyalty was taking that product to market, bringing it to customers and solving such a clear problem as I just mentioned, which is, you know, there’s always two parts to any equation I think people are making, which is I have a pain or a problem I need solving.

Ben: And then what is the pain?

Ben: And then there’s the gain.

Ben: What is the upside or additional value you can provide even beyond solving the problem?

Ben: It’s very, you know, I always say to my team, is it a vitamin or a paracetamol?

Ben: And they’re like, what do you mean?

Ben: And I’m like, well, a paracetamol, if I have a headache, solve my problem instantly.

Ben: I don’t really even need it really to be marketed to me because it’s very clear what it does.

Ben: A vitamin, I have to really believe that it has an impact because I can take them as I do every day.

Ben: I don’t really feel any different.

Ben: But I do understand I should eat my vegetables.

Ben: So taking a product to market that was solving a very specific need and problem, which was this, we don’t have to resource, we don’t have to keep believe it’s not the business we’re in, but this answers all of those challenges we’ve been asking ourselves, and it’s going to add incremental value.

Ben: We hadn’t even thought about digitally available, consolidating all of this multitude of content, was really exciting, and I loved it.

Ben: The brand engagement from Santander, CNA, British Gas, TD Bank, Frontier Communications in the US was just incredible in what a relatively short space of time, like two and a half years, and then the product was acquired.

Ben: So that was probably one of my highs.

Ben: I think to your point earlier, what really got me excited was there was a pyramid, which is you’re creating value for the business that you’re partnering with.

Ben: You’re solving problems, so pains, and you’re bringing value and you’re creating gains.

Ben: You’re also providing value for the customers, tangible value, saving them money on products, surprising delighting them on their birthday.

Ben: You’re creating an experience which is really increasing NPS and satisfaction, but also has a mathematical benefit, which is really valuable and tangible.

Ben: All of that, if you’ve structured it, like I mentioned the strategy at the beginning, which is it generates revenue and that can be funded into surprising delighting customers, you’re creating value for your business.

Ben: You’re really delivering on all sides.

Ben: That gets me very excited because if everyone wins, then I think that’s the best scenario.

Charlie: I completely agree.

Charlie: Mutual value exchange is so important.

Charlie: That’s why I love being in partnerships.

Charlie: I think when you can get it right, that you’ve got the value for you, you’ve got the value for the partner brand, and you’ve got the value for the customer, that’s when those things have got real long-term potential, and they survive and they grow and they evolve over time.

Charlie: We completely believe in that as well.

Charlie: It’s something we’re quite passionate about actually.

Charlie: If one of those is wrong, it won’t survive.

Charlie: I think that’s really important as well.

Charlie: So it’s really important to invest upfront to get that right.

Charlie: Not to lower the tone, but we have to recognize that there are lows and challenges and things that we have to overcome.

Charlie: Any challenging areas you’re able to show, or any lows that you’ve kind of overcome as part of that?

Ben: Yes, so retailers.

Ben: I’ve always found it interesting.

Ben: Not to broad brush, but I always found it challenging with retail because I felt that there was a mindset which was if you buy my socks, then you must also want to buy my trousers, pants, jacket, shirt and things.

Ben: And I think the high street understood that better.

Ben: Like the high street didn’t say, oh, I don’t want to be next to Sephora because they got the same underwear that I have.

Ben: So it was like, oh, we’ll just all go together and then people will probably come down the high street and they’ll select the products they like.

Ben: And I think there’s a, I don’t know what the word is, but a closed off-ness, especially in the digital world, which is I don’t want to have any association to any other brand that could be competitive or causing a problem.

Ben: And I think that that limits what you’re able to do.

Ben: Like I think the wonder of Amex is that there is no limitation, in theory, to where I can redeem or utilize points.

Ben: And I like that.

Ben: That freedom gives me a sense of value that’s probably disproportionately high.

Ben: And I think that brands often confuse that brand loyalty with keeping a customer, and it’s the wrong word, selfishness, but it’s like keeping them enclosed.

Ben: They’re my customer.

Ben: When you know they’re not, they spend maybe 1% of time with you.

Ben: So it’s like, how could you actually be of value across their entire life cycle when they’re doing all of the other things throughout their day, and how could you add value to that?

Ben: That’s like a bigger question.

Ben: And I think if you can just pick one or two things or other areas, you can do that, then that becomes really valuable.

Ben: And so, yeah, I think that’s always been my lower bit is when we seek to do exciting or experiential things with retail, there was quite a close off nature to it.

Ben: And I, you know.

Charlie: Yeah, that mentality can be quite challenging actually.

Charlie: That share of wallet, market share kind of focus is really critical, particularly when you’re trying to drive collaboration or own a moment across multiple retailers.

Charlie: Very familiar with that one too.

Charlie: Is that the most important lesson you’ve learned or is there something else that really stands out?

Ben: Acquisitions are hard.

Ben: I think that was a wonderful learning, a great experience, but I think, you know, it has multi-dimensions, doesn’t it?

Ben: Is it the right, because the companies involved, certainly the ones I’ve been involved in, great companies, it’s just, is it the right thing often for the products, for the clients?

Ben: Is it, you know, it creates turbulence, right?

Ben: All the, always these things done and it’s always handled in the best way it can.

Ben: And I think just for me, that was an incredible learning experience.

Ben: And I often reflect and think sometimes I think maybe the product was early for its acquisition because there was so much more, you know, I guess, direction that it was headed.

Ben: It was so much more to achieve.

Ben: And I think it’ll achieve just as, you know, fantastic things where it is now.

Ben: But it was, it was a shift and a change.

Ben: And I think sometimes you honestly reflect and say, was it the right time for the product and so forth?

Charlie: Power of hindsight, right?

Charlie: I wish we had it.

Charlie: Yeah.

Charlie: I wish we had it over the years where like, oh no!

Charlie: Or actually, you know, what I love is where something surprises you and something does better than you thought.

Charlie: And then you figure out why afterwards and then can apply that insight for, you know, future kind of work.

Charlie: That’s one of the things I think is so important, that actionable insight.

Charlie: I know one of the areas that you’re particularly passionate about is the importance of selling loyalty internally well and doing that properly.

Charlie: And you’ve obviously talked us through your model and the approach and focusing on customer and business outcomes.

Charlie: Why do you think that’s so important?

Charlie: Why is that something you’re so passionate about?

Ben: I think you probably nailed it, which is I have been through the sequence, which it is a sequence of internal process, internal decision-making, eternal approvals for large corporations.

Ben: And I could see how difficult it was, as I was saying earlier, for people to even understand that as an employee, as well as the organization itself, which is we understand that there is a value in this, and we understand, especially loyalty, everyone is doing some form of loyalty.

Ben: But we’re struggling to understand how this relates into tangible value back to us or revenue, profit, and therefore how it should or where it should be prioritized.

Ben: And I still, still to this day, meet with brands who are very established in their loyalty proposition, and still struggle to articulate and answer that equation in a very clear way, which is, you know, the program we’re bringing, how does it drive profit and value back to each department?

Ben: Because technology runs its own prioritization schedule with its own quantification on the value of what it’s delivering to the business, and they want to succeed in that.

Ben: So are the managers and business leaders, are all managed by target growth, and that has to then say, well, is this going to enable me to hit my target, or is this a priority B, which I’m interested in, and we want to do something, but not now.

Ben: So for me, it was understanding, okay, how does the product that we provide derive value for each of those layers in a business?

Ben: I think once you understand and have clarity on the approval pathways and ownership, you can then understand how to effectively sell loyalty back to those individual business units and teams.

Ben: And as I did, I laid that in this four-layer framework for people.

Ben: But to your point, there’s a lot of granularity behind that, which is, you know, how do you want to position that?

Ben: So do you want to have a meeting with those marketing teams?

Ben: Because the one thing I used to get a lot was we would come in with this proposition and marketing teams would freak out.

Ben: They would say, whoa, you’re not taking over all my marketing unit.

Ben: And it’s like, no, no, no.

Ben: We are going to become an enabler for the message that you’re struggling to get product placement on the app or product or prioritization within the communications, particularly like airlines, right?

Ben: Everything that’s important to the airline comes first, which is a lot.

Ben: And then maybe you can have a little banner underneath that says, yeah, if you want to earn points on this, you can do that.

Ben: And so there was a real piece there around, how do we want to communicate to each business layer, including like marketing, to ensure they understand what this will enable them to achieve.

Ben: And I think if you can do that, which is this doesn’t replace some of your existing columns, this doesn’t take over the approach that you take today, it becomes an enabler and an enhancement.

Ben: And in theory, once we have better engagement, you will get better open rates, click-through rates, usage rates of all the communication that you are sending.

Charlie: Nice.

Charlie: I really like that thing.

Charlie: It’s almost applying a customer psychology to an internal stakeholder group, isn’t it?

Charlie: It’s understanding who they are and what success looks like, and then adapting what you offer to help them do it better.

Charlie: It’s almost like another pin, you’re getting from a pyramid to some sort of Pentagon type model.

Ben: I need to expand the model again.

Charlie: A really interesting way of thinking about it.

Charlie: And what about your top three do’s and don’ts?

Charlie: Because I know this is honestly, one of the things the brands we work with struggle with the most.

Charlie: If you had a top three do’s, a top three don’ts for selling internally, what would they be?

Ben: Oh, okay.

Ben: So, let’s keep it in the same theme.

Ben: But I’d say the top do’s would be define the problem and its cost early.

Ben: So we talked about, you know, pain and gain.

Ben: Defining the pain and solving a pain.

Ben: If you can make that the cost, you are in for a winner.

Ben: I always, I heard this wonderful analogy when I started in the industry.

Ben: And I hope it’s true, but I’m about to promote them either way, which was, I heard that when the likes of Eagle Eye was selling to Tesco, the pitch really only needed to be one sentence, which is today you have a manual coupon process and it costs you four million, for example.

Ben: Tomorrow, we can digitize the whole program when we can do it for two million.

Ben: That is a very easy thing to sell internally.

Ben: And I think that’s why I put the, to find the problem and it’s cost really early on.

Ben: Because if you can do that and what it, internally that means what is this issue costing you the business?

Ben: What is it costing your customers?

Ben: And ultimately, back to our pyramid, what is that costing you from a revenue and profitability standpoint?

Ben: Number two would be translate features into financial outcomes.

Ben: People love talking about features.

Ben: Oh, this new tool has this.

Ben: It is unbelievable.

Ben: The business is less enamored by features.

Ben: And so again, we will translate those back into, are we saving people time, which saves people money?

Ben: Are we increasing productivity?

Ben: What are we deriving from that feature?

Ben: I think that’s really, really crucial.

Ben: Nice.

Ben: And then the third one would be, engage those stakeholders early.

Ben: This is the bit you called out, emotional, you know, or EQ, shall we let’s call it, you know, how well have we built a relationship with the teams that will be directly engaged and affected?

Ben: Because if I come up with the best strategy in the world, and I bold in on the CTO, and he has no idea what we were planning to do, he will be defensive before he’s supportive.

Ben: So be a politician, let’s call it that.

Ben: Engage your stakeholders, bring them on board before they even see your first presentation, and then they will feel like a part of the journey.

Ben: And if you do that, you will find most of your roadblocks start to fall away because you’re building this collective posse, let’s call it, of engaging stakeholders who are all pushing for this to be prioritized and move forward.

Charlie: Nice, that’s a lovely way of thinking about it.

Charlie: I love those top three dos.

Charlie: Now, the don’ts are presumably the opposite of the dos, but are there any other areas that you think you should call out?

Charlie: Don’t do that, don’t do that, definitely do not do that.

Ben: I will always do them quickly, so we can be much more focused on the positives.

Ben: But don’t lead with platforms or tech.

Ben: I think that’s a big mistake.

Ben: I will double up on that, not only because the business is less, as I say, enamored by what platform or tech they’re using, it’s just does it solve the pain and provide a gain.

Ben: But also because people forget to look at, what behavior do I want to create first?

Ben: So go back to behavioral economics.

Ben: What do you want to create and what platform or capability there might be able to drive that, but the platform comes last.

Ben: The first bit is what do you want to create and lead with that.

Ben: Two is entering processes.

Ben: I, Ben did a wonderful study that showed that when something has gone to an RFP, it is probably 60 percent through its sales cycle already, and someone has influenced and led a discussion to that point.

Ben: Be mindful when entering whether if you are in sales and you’re selling a product or solution, you’re going for a loyalty proposition.

Ben: By the time you hit RFP, just be sure that someone has probably already influenced directly or indirectly the decision that they want to go in.

Ben: It’s really important to have conversations with brands before they’re even in the market about why the solution can solve their problems and add this incremental value.

Ben: That would be my three.

Charlie: Thank you.

Charlie: That’s a really lovely positive three and then three watch outs as well.

Charlie: We’re rounding out to the end of our episode.

Ben: Yes.

Charlie: Is there any particular idea or innovation that you want to leave our audience thinking about?

Charlie: Then my last and final question will be, I’m sure people are going to have a ton of questions Ben.

Charlie: What’s the best way of them reaching out to you?

Ben: Yes.

Ben: Innovations, I admire.

Ben: I’m going to give you this one because I think it’s probably less recognized.

Ben: Brands innovating in what I would call the experiential loyalty space.

Ben: By that, I don’t mean gamification and spin a wheel on an app.

Ben: I mean, there’s a brand that I came up with recently called Native.

Ben: Native is a great example because they are physically in front of students during what are the most formative years in their life stage.

Ben: And so they are creating experiences, for example, at Freshers Week, by allowing or enabling brands to be in front of those students, but through an experiential format.

Ben: So for example, I know one of them that does really well is like Domino.

Ben: So you might have a big spin the wheel in person where they can spin the wheel and win a slice of pizza and then sign up or download the Domino’s app.

Ben: Now, I would do most things for a slice of pizza.

Ben: So a student will definitely, but the engagement rates you see from brand activation like that is significantly higher.

Ben: And the most powerful thing when you think about it is that I chose my bank when I was at university and I never changed.

Ben: I still have that bank now.

Ben: Yeah, it’s your most formative years.

Ben: And whilst brands can come in and out of different life cycle stages, fundamentally, you will hold far more brand, let’s call it loyalty, in those formative years than you will at any other time because it’s bonding with those very strong early emotional experiences from the music you hear, the people you hang out with, the food you eat.

Ben: That’s being formed at a very informative and kind of formative life stage.

Ben: So that’s where I think a lot of brands could do a lot more because they seek to win people when it’s much harder in a later life cycle.

Ben: Win them at the beginning and you’ll hold them for life.

Charlie: That’s a lovely thought.

Charlie: And that second question of how should our audience reach out to you if they have questions, what’s the best way?

Ben: LinkedIn, unsurprisingly, is probably the best place.

Ben: You can reach me on tenxstrategy.com, but ultimately I’m on LinkedIn.

Ben: So please reach out.

Ben: Love to speak to people about all things.

Charlie: We’ll pop the link to Ben in LinkedIn, in the show notes for this episode.

Charlie: So all that’s left for me to say is thank you so much.

Charlie: What an interesting topic and really lovely to think about so many different types of loyalty challenges, but from that selling internally and revenue point of view.

Charlie: Thank you very much for your contribution today.

Charlie: I hope you’ve enjoyed being on the show.

Ben: Thank you, Charlie.

Ben: I’ve loved it.

Paula: This show is sponsored by Wise Marketeer Group, operating the Wise Marketeer and Loyalty Academy.

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